Allegro out of business?

[blueskull]

I just found this today, and I seriously think Allegro and other so called high end PCB tools are being challenged by Altium, a so called mid-range PCB tool. Yes, they still have advantages such as built-in optional SI/EMI tools and MCM/LTCC design capability, but for consumer FR4-based designs, it seems the gap between AD and those high end tools are diminishing.

http://www.altium.com/workshops/?utm_source=ownedmedia&utm_medium=stickybuttonad18overview&utm_campaign=VirtualWorkshop#Routing-with-Activeroute%C2%AE

[Fire Doger]

They are challenged, if not yet definitely in near future (if Altium doesn't shoot their foot like FPGA crap again)
Low range are also being challenged by CS.
I like that, it means that other competitors must improve their programs to stay in business.

[Gibson486]

The only places I know that do not use Altium are military places and places that have very seasoned senior guys.  People say Altium cost a lot, but when you see how much the competition costs, it is not that much especially when you consider that most places do not pay what the MSRP is. The only other viable solution are the cheaper stuff, which is meh if you ar every serious about rolling out to a team and then there is KiCad, which is actually pretty dam good for a free package.

[olkipukki]

...but for consumer FR4-based designs, it seems the gap between AD and those high end tools are diminishing.

Hope that Autodesk will realise how sh***y is EAGLE, and improve to "Inventor vs SolidWorks" level,
so we will have a bit alternative in case if Altium keep "milking" customers by increasing subscription cost...

[DerekG]

Altium keep "milking" customers by increasing subscription cost...

Or perhaps move across to DipTrace like I did. I no longer use Altium apart from updating some legacy boards.

The latest version of DipTrace can even import Altium schematics & pcbs.

I've never looked back.

[coppice]

What do you mean by "Allegro out of business"? Allegro is a Cadence product, and Cadence isn't out of business. Cadence still seem to be offering Allegro, although I know some big organisations which have migrated from it to Altium.

[rfbroadband]

Allegro is a powerful tool, but I think in the long run they will lose more market share because of their pricing structure. You can get started with just a $1000 or so but many features are disabled. The idea is to get the user hooked and then have him pay for software options to get some of the disabled features enabled. The pricing options for some of these 'advanced' features are completely insane (e.g.30,000$ per option).

I personally can't judge to what extend Altium is playing the same game and tries to get people to buy more and more software options as you become used to the tool.

Attached is a nice overview of Allegro features and what kind of software option you will need to access them. I would be interested to know how many of the 'advanced' features listed here are included per default in Altium.

http://www.parallel-systems.co.uk/matrix/

Usually such a detailed comparison takes weeks of work and the few companies who have done such an analysis keep the results confidential.

Maybe an experienced Altium user wants to look at the PCB High Speed PCB options listed in the link above ? I think the US price is around 25,000$ (yes just for this one !option).

I am surprised that Altium has not created a feature comparison matrix and put a check mark next to every feature that competitors charge 10s of thousands of dollars for.....

Anyway, if Altium fans could point out a few "Allegro Advanced" features that are included in the base version (thus no extra charge), that would be very interesting to see.

[Warhawk]

Altium keep "milking" customers by increasing subscription cost...

Or perhaps move across to DipTrace like I did. I no longer use Altium apart from updating some legacy boards.

The latest version of DipTrace can even import Altium schematics & pcbs.

I've never looked back.

Derek, I like you posts but every other one is about how you like DipTrace. Sometimes you sound like Jehovah's Witnesses or Apple fanboys. I worked with Diptrace and it is nowhere close to Altium although I wish it did. If it was, Diptrace would be way more successful. Especially the circuit diagram editor is far below today's standards. There are also problems and quirks reported years ago which have never been addressed. Instead, there is new length tuning feature which users of DipTrace don't need.

Diptrace is OK for hobby but far away from being a professional mid-range EDA tool.

How complex your boards are?

[DerekG]

Derek, I like you posts but every other one is about how you like DipTrace.

OK, I will tone down my posts. I just try to convey that this is one of the quickest pcb packages to learn & master.

I worked with Diptrace and it is nowhere close to Altium although I wish it did. If it was, Diptrace would be way more successful.

Most (many) people on this forum are generally looking for a cheaper option than Altium's US$8K+

I am the first to admit that Altium gives you so many options, there is generally nothing you can't do with it. It does have however a large learning curve & it is quite (very) complex in some areas like scripting. Even moving from a schematic to the pcb can cause you to pull your hair out overcoming all mismatches that Altium keeps complaining about.

There are also (Diptrace) problems and quirks reported years ago which have never been addressed. Instead, there is new length tuning feature which users of DipTrace don't need.

I agree on both counts, however in these past 2 years the development team has worked hard in overcoming some of these long held complaints.

Diptrace is OK for hobby but far away from being a professional mid-range EDA tool.
How complex your boards are?

I can do pretty much everything I want/need to do using DipTrace. The boards I design usually fall into the 50 to 200 component range. Most boards are designed using micro-controllers to reduce the parts count.

To manufacture boards in a high cost country such as Australia, you must work hard at your designs to minimise the component count which in turn (nomally) reduces production costs. We own our own plastic moulds to keep our box/enclosure costs down & mainly V groove our boards so that we can handle large panels through the production phase economically. This means that most of our boards are rectangular in shape.

So, no we are not into flex or hybrid boards & our designs generally run under 50MHz.

One would envisage that if you were into PC motherboard design that you might well choose a package like Altium, not that I don't believe I couldn't do it in DipTrace.

Anyway, your points are taken on-board & I will take more of a backseat on this forum.

[ahbushnell]

The only places I know that do not use Altium are military places and places that have very seasoned senior guys.  People say Altium cost a lot, but when you see how much the competition costs, it is not that much especially when you consider that most places do not pay what the MSRP is. The only other viable solution are the cheaper stuff, which is meh if you ar every serious about rolling out to a team and then there is KiCad, which is actually pretty dam good for a free package.

Why is it not used in military places?

[EEVblog]

I personally can't judge to what extend Altium is playing the same game and tries to get people to buy more and more software options as you become used to the tool.

Well, Altium are a publicly listed company and they have to keep:
a) The shareholders happy
and
b) Show continued growth in revenue

And the only way to do a) is to do b)

They have gone from 8 cents to $22 a share.


Hint: If you own Altium shares, think about selling. That continued growth isn't sustainable at a PE Ratio of 68.

There aren't many ways to grow your revenue, and many of them involve raising prices on your existing customers.
Even if they converted all existing Allego users, it's probably not a huge number. This is why they have their new high end PCB tool they can sell to them and prices way higher than Altium Designer.

[Marco]

This is why they have their new high end PCB tool they can sell to them and prices way higher than Altium Designer.

Internal competition, that always works out well.

[DerekG]

Hint: If you own Altium shares, think about selling. That continued growth isn't sustainable at a PE Ratio of 68.

Yes, I fully agree. 15 years ago there were quite a few players who were active in the PCB CAD arena. Many have fallen by the wayside and other smaller players have been snapped up by the larger players.

This CAD design industry is now be considered "mature".

There are a pile of free offerings now that have forced Altium to enter that space with low cost offerings such as Circuit Maker & Circuit Studio.

Whilst many Eagle users are very unhappy about Autodesk's move to an annual subscription model, more users on the forums are saying it is working out well as a lot of effort is being made to bring the software up to the next level. I've even read that users believe it will compete well against Altium Designer if this development work continues in just a couple of years time ............. and at a couple of hundred dollars a year, Autodesk's subscription licence is less than Altium's annual maintenance fee.

So, I full agree with Dave. Altium's share value has risen steeply these past 6 or so years, based on a heavy sell to investors & users alike, but I do not believe it is sustainable.

Let's revisit the share price in another 12 months & 24 months time.

[ebastler]

This is why they have their new high end PCB tool they can sell to them and prices way higher than Altium Designer.

Internal competition, that always works out well.

It’s called “market segmentation”, and yes, it seems to work well for most companies. Sell two products with different feature sets and price points to two groups of customers (with different needs and budgets).

“Internal competition”, in my understanding, would imply selling two competing products to the same customer base, in the same price range. Makes less sense, and Altium does not do that to my knowledge.

[Marco]

The feature sets however are not all that different, or they wouldn't be eating into Allegro's market share. Other than thermal, signal integrity and EMI simulations there is nothing which is warranted to be exclusive to a super premium price product, by holding features back from their mainstream product to allow more internal differentiation they'll open the door for competition.

[Gibson486]

The only places I know that do not use Altium are military places and places that have very seasoned senior guys.  People say Altium cost a lot, but when you see how much the competition costs, it is not that much especially when you consider that most places do not pay what the MSRP is. The only other viable solution are the cheaper stuff, which is meh if you ar every serious about rolling out to a team and then there is KiCad, which is actually pretty dam good for a free package.

Why is it not used in military places?

Not sure. If I had to guess it is because they started out not using Altium, so they just use what they have used for the past  number of years. Military is one of those industries where change is not easy to come by (speaking from a tools point of view). In fact, if any place started using a tool, you better have a good reason to change it and it better be compatible with your older stuff.

[ahbushnell]

The only places I know that do not use Altium are military places and places that have very seasoned sen
Why is it not used in military places?

Not sure. If I had to guess it is because they started out not using Altium, so they just use what they have used for the past  number of years. Military is one of those industries where change is not easy to come by (speaking from a tools point of view). In fact, if any place started using a tool, you better have a good reason to change it and it better be compatible with your older stuff.

Nothing to do with military just the big problem of changing software in a big company.  This is a significant problem in any industry.

[Karel]

Whilst many Eagle users are very unhappy about Autodesk's move to an annual subscription model, more users on the forums are saying it is working out well as a lot of effort is being made to bring the software up to the next level. I've even read that users believe it will compete well against Altium Designer if this development work continues in just a couple of years time .....

My impression is a bit different. I believe that

• most hobbyists / makers have moved on to Kicad
• some hobbyists and professionals keep on using Eagle V7 for the next years
• professionals / small companies moved (or are moving) to Altium Designer
• not too many people are happily using autodesk eagle V8

[EEVblog]

Let the subscription lapse, and the sales person will call you to give you a heavy discount on both current sub and backpay.
This works if you only need to periodically upgrade AD, but don't need to be kept updated on each and every version.

Another option is to buy sub years ahead. I secured a 60% off (I paid $3k, the list price is $1.75k*4+$300=7.3k) for back paying 2 years plus 2 years sub ahead.
So effectively I paid a negative backpay. That tells you how desperately they want you to keep subscribed.

Altium want everyone on subscription for obvious revenue reasons. But last I looked at the company investor data, less than half were on subscription.

[Warhawk]

Keep in mind that engineers are seldom in charge of picking the right EDA software. Capital investments are usually decided one layer above where marketing materials play important role. At least to my experience. Second, Altium is somehow manageable by a single person. When you do a rapid prototyping and you need a symbol/footprint immediately, you can do it without causing much harm. I had to do a couple of footprints for allegro and it was extremely inconvenient.

[Gibson486]

Whilst many Eagle users are very unhappy about Autodesk's move to an annual subscription model, more users on the forums are saying it is working out well as a lot of effort is being made to bring the software up to the next level. I've even read that users believe it will compete well against Altium Designer if this development work continues in just a couple of years time .....

My impression is a bit different. I believe that

• most hobbyists / makers have moved on to Kicad
• some hobbyists and professionals keep on using Eagle V7 for the next years
• professionals / small companies moved (or are moving) to Altium Designer
• not too many people are happily using autodesk eagle V8

I started a new job. They were using Eagle. I told them flat out: let me choose something else, or I will not work here. Anything is better than Eagle. I swear, they just updated the program boot up logo, but kept everything the same for the past decade.

[snoopy]

Altium keep "milking" customers by increasing subscription cost...

Or perhaps move across to DipTrace like I did. I no longer use Altium apart from updating some legacy boards.

The latest version of DipTrace can even import Altium schematics & pcbs.

I've never looked back.

I used diptrace a while ago to view some cad files for an evaluation board. I don't think I could get used to the chunky graphics. Not a patch on Altium and the update speed was somewhat sluggish compared to Altium.

cheers

[nctnico]

Whilst many Eagle users are very unhappy about Autodesk's move to an annual subscription model, more users on the forums are saying it is working out well as a lot of effort is being made to bring the software up to the next level. I've even read that users believe it will compete well against Altium Designer if this development work continues in just a couple of years time .....

My impression is a bit different. I believe that

• most hobbyists / makers have moved on to Kicad
• some hobbyists and professionals keep on using Eagle V7 for the next years
• professionals / small companies moved (or are moving) to Altium Designer
• not too many people are happily using autodesk eagle V8

Altium is often choosen because many companies use it. Interestingly Orcad from Cadence is cheaper and offers similar features when it comes to schematics/PCB design. Also the minimum PC requirements for Orcad are way lower (Intel Core2 duo versus Intel Core i7 for Altium).

[DerekG]

Altium is often chosen because many companies use it.

Fully agree.

Interestingly Orcad from Cadence is cheaper

Any idea on what the current cost is? I presume there is also an annual maintenance cost?

[coppice]

Altium is often chosen because many companies use it.

That makes Altium sound like the dominant player in the market. It isn't, although this forum often makes it seem so.