Author Topic: Allegro out of business?  (Read 7079 times)

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Online coppice

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2018, 02:01:32 am »
Altium is often chosen because many companies use it.
That makes Altium sound like the dominant player in the market. It isn't, although this forum often makes it seem so.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2018, 02:07:27 am »
That makes Altium sound like the dominant player in the market. It isn't, although this forum often makes it seem so.



https://www.slideshare.net/mjoass/altium-2016-presentation
 

Offline DerekG

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2018, 02:40:58 am »
That makes Altium sound like the dominant player in the market. It isn't, although this forum often makes it seem so.

The pie graph above needs to be examined carefully. It says "Revenue Share". I have not looked at the current cost of Cadence but both Zuken & Mentor Graphics are a LOT more expensive than Altium.

If we take both Zuken & Mentor Graphics as being 2.5 times Altium's seat price (they are in reality more like three times the price of Altium), this would indicate that Altium is either first or second in the number of total users.

Altium's growth in total seats has been quite phenomenal over the past 18 years, so (one would expect) that it will not be long until it does hold the most active seats in PCB design.
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline DerekG

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2018, 02:56:13 am »
Page 6 of Altium's presentation to shareholders shows the revenue growth for 2015-2016. This graph shows they are significantly outperforming their competitors. If this continues then Altium will certainly take the lead with the total number of seats (which would qualify them to claim to be the dominant player in this industry).

To make it clear, I actually don't like Altium (the company) or their AD design package that much. But, they have risen from a very small player back in 1988 (the Protel days) to be one of the biggest.
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2018, 02:57:29 am »
That makes Altium sound like the dominant player in the market. It isn't, although this forum often makes it seem so.

The pie graph above needs to be examined carefully. It says "Revenue Share". I have not looked at the current cost of Cadence but both Zuken & Mentor Graphics are a LOT more expensive than Altium.

If we take both Zuken & Mentor Graphics as being 2.5 times Altium's seat price (they are in reality more like three times the price of Altium), this would indicate that Altium is either first or second in the number of total users.

Altium's growth in total seats has been quite phenomenal over the past 18 years, so (one would expect) that it will not be long until it does hold the most active seats in PCB design.
You also need to consider that the chart only shows the top 4 suppliers. Large numbers of board designers don't use any of these 4. 5 to 10 years ago, my team received significant numbers of CAD files from customers, who were hoping we could help them refine their designs. They were hardly ever in Altium format. I don't know how that would compare today.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2018, 03:10:29 am »
@DerekG -- sure, valid points. I just wanted to illustrate coppice's point that, contrary to what the discussions in this forum might sometimes make you believe, Altium is not "the only game in town" when it comes to professional PCB CAD.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2018, 09:00:26 am »
Interestingly Orcad from Cadence is cheaper
Any idea on what the current cost is? I presume there is also an annual maintenance cost?
Maintenance costs are never mandatory. IMHO software should work out of the box and not depend on future updates. Anyway, with component management count on spending between 4k to 5k euro on a single seat for a one time buy  (perpetual) license.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2018, 07:04:25 pm »
Let the subscription lapse, and the sales person will call you to give you a heavy discount on both current sub and backpay.
This works if you only need to periodically upgrade AD, but don't need to be kept updated on each and every version.

Another option is to buy sub years ahead. I secured a 60% off (I paid $3k, the list price is $1.75k*4+$300=7.3k) for back paying 2 years plus 2 years sub ahead.
So effectively I paid a negative backpay. That tells you how desperately they want you to keep subscribed.

Last time I tried to negotiate 3 years subscription, but Altium is not interested to give any discounts, just pointed to "a price will be fixed for 3 years"...  :--





 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2018, 07:51:20 pm »
That makes Altium sound like the dominant player in the market. It isn't, although this forum often makes it seem so.

The pie graph above needs to be examined carefully. It says "Revenue Share". I have not looked at the current cost of Cadence but both Zuken & Mentor Graphics are a LOT more expensive than Altium.

If we take both Zuken & Mentor Graphics as being 2.5 times Altium's seat price (they are in reality more like three times the price of Altium), this would indicate that Altium is either first or second in the number of total users.

Altium's growth in total seats has been quite phenomenal over the past 18 years, so (one would expect) that it will not be long until it does hold the most active seats in PCB design.
I've started using OrCAD recently, because my new workplace had that. It has a very low entry point of 0, and you only rent the software, and it stops working as soon as you stop paying for it. It costs about the same as Altium subscription.
For now, I see it as a very very powerful tool. I'm still at the beginning of the learning curve. I think the high end versions could do a lot more than Altium. For example it can repour on a layer instantly, or you can "easily" change the thermal connections for just one component.
But it lacks 3D. Or the interactive routing in Altium is a bit better. Ask me in a few months, how they stack up.
 

Offline DerekG

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2018, 09:12:10 pm »
Ask me in a few months, how they stack up.

Excellent. We look forward to an update in several months once you have come up to speed with Orcad.
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Online asmi

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2018, 09:47:55 am »
But it lacks 3D. Or the interactive routing in Altium is a bit better. Ask me in a few months, how they stack up.
It has 3D, and a very good one. One feature I particularly like is the fact that it's interactive - meaning you can move components in 3D view and it will automatically update layout. When combined with ability to load up the model for the enclosure this makes placing various connectors, dials, etc, much easier. This is a quite recent addition (and it's still ongoing project), so if you don't have it, you might want to download and install the latest update (SPB17.20.037 at this moment).
Orcad is available on both "lease" and perpetual basis - you can see current prices here. Currently Capture + PCB Professional suite is $5k + $1.8k per year for maintenance subscription. But their sales people seem willing to negotiate prices - they provided a great discount to me I as a hobbyist.
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2018, 06:51:03 pm »
But it lacks 3D. Or the interactive routing in Altium is a bit better. Ask me in a few months, how they stack up.
It has 3D, and a very good one. One feature I particularly like is the fact that it's interactive - meaning you can move components in 3D view and it will automatically update layout. When combined with ability to load up the model for the enclosure this makes placing various connectors, dials, etc, much easier. This is a quite recent addition (and it's still ongoing project), so if you don't have it, you might want to download and install the latest update (SPB17.20.037 at this moment).
Orcad is available on both "lease" and perpetual basis - you can see current prices here. Currently Capture + PCB Professional suite is $5k + $1.8k per year for maintenance subscription. But their sales people seem willing to negotiate prices - they provided a great discount to me I as a hobbyist.

Did you have a chance to use OrCAD Library Builder? Is it a separate license?

I like their "Advanced PDF datasheet extraction" feature and wondering if it's works in most cases and not only as advertised on Cypress parts  :popcorn:

http://www.orcad.com/resources/library/orcad-library-builder-fast-part-creation-demonstration
 

Online asmi

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2018, 03:08:51 am »
Did you have a chance to use OrCAD Library Builder? Is it a separate license?

I like their "Advanced PDF datasheet extraction" feature and wondering if it's works in most cases and not only as advertised on Cypress parts  :popcorn:

http://www.orcad.com/resources/library/orcad-library-builder-fast-part-creation-demonstration
These are all extra (at least at Professional license level) so I can't comment on them. As I said above, I'm a hobbyist so I don't have six-digit budgets to burn (if I would, I would buy a fully-optioned Allegro license first :) ). Besides, I prefer making my own schematic symbols. As for footprints, I use PCB Library Expert Lite to generate standard ones (as a nice bonus it also generates 3D step models of packages), and for non-standard footprints I create them manually using built-in tools, and create/edit 3D models in Fusion 360 if manufacturer doesn't provide them, or if I don't like how they look.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 03:11:30 am by asmi »
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2018, 12:07:47 am »
These are all extra (at least at Professional license level) so I can't comment on them.

It seems that some OrCAD extras already available in standard Altium package.
For example, "OrCAD Panel Editor" for panelization...

Anyway, OrCAD has promotion now "OrCAD Capture & OrCAD PCB Editor (Powered by Allegro) 1yr license $620 $299"

I have Lite version installed locally (to open a read-only custom designs etc) - very limited and annoyed mostly time, might pull a trigger for 1y std proper license...
 

Online asmi

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2018, 09:21:29 am »
I have Lite version installed locally (to open a read-only custom designs etc) - very limited and annoyed mostly time, might pull a trigger for 1y std proper license...
I suggest you to request the trial version before jumping the ship and handing them money. I don't know which country you're from, as they usually have different offers in different countries, but over here in North America as part of their "trial" you get assigned a dedicated Field Applications Engineer who will help you get up to speed quickly. As part of the purchase package I was also given access to free e-learning course for Capture and PCB Editor, and these (along with FE) were very helpful.
Also you can find a bunch of useful tips-n-tricks here: http://www.parallel-systems.co.uk/guides/
Lastly, whatever license you choose, make sure you order USB HASP key (it was $100 here) so that your license won't be tied to your physical computer, and you can easily move your installation (or even have several installations, but of course you can only use one at a time) without involving support personnel. Rehosting the license is free as long as your maintenance license is active, but if you let it lapse and decide to rehost it after that, their support will charge you for that service.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 09:25:38 am by asmi »
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2018, 12:38:29 pm »
Any idea on what the current cost is? I presume there is also an annual maintenance cost?
Depends on what package you go with. And yes, there are annual maintenance fees to keep it current and continued access to support after the first year.

They're running a special on PCB Designer Standard right now for $299. It used to go for ~$2150 IIRC (MSRP is $620 if the $299 special wasn't available), so it's a decent offer. Seems they're making the real money on the maintenance fees as well as hope you'll add options as your needs grow.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2018, 07:04:57 pm »
Any idea on what the current cost is? I presume there is also an annual maintenance cost?
Depends on what package you go with. And yes, there are annual maintenance fees to keep it current and continued access to support after the first year.

They're running a special on PCB Designer Standard right now for $299. It used to go for ~$2150 IIRC (MSRP is $620 if the $299 special wasn't available), so it's a decent offer. Seems they're making the real money on the maintenance fees as well as hope you'll add options as your needs grow.
Right now, I think Allegro is not worth it, unless you are working in a big team, with at least one expert in it.
Generating libraries and output files is a pain, and you need to work a lot on basic things that is set by default in other EDA software. The fact that you have 200 different layers is also bad, and you dont get a gerber viewer to check your output. My collegue describet it as an "empty box, that lets you do a lot of things, but you need to configure it yourself", and I have to agree with it. Placing just a via is difficult, something that should be simple. Making footprints also. The 3D is  very basic compared to Altium. A lot of things are very cumbersome.
Unless you want to learn how to route high end digital stuff, like GBit routers, Video cards or so, I dont think it is such a good software. It is made for companies, where separate people work on the schematic, library, layout and so on. For people, where 20 engines are working on the same project, and you need a RFM to get stapler. And if you want to be a layouter, a CID at a big firm, so be it, learn how to use it. Otherwise I would stick to Altium.
 

Offline hammy

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2018, 01:02:53 am »
The 3D is  very basic compared to Altium. A lot of things are very cumbersome.

Setup -> User Preferences Editor -> Interactive 3D canvas

Your knowledge about this software is limited. Robert Feranec "Fedevel Academy" created a new course for OrCAD/Allegro. I highly recommend it for everyone who is interested to improve his skills.

Cheers
hammy
 

Offline hammy

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2018, 06:25:38 am »
Placing just a via is difficult, something that should be simple.

Adding a via has traditionally been done with a double-click of the LMB. Using the Space Bar can save you several thousand mouse clicks per year. The Space Bar is an easy key to click and hence best for adding vias.
Code: [Select]
funckey " " "pop bbdrill -cursor"  (double quote – space – double quote)
The document "Allegro_Tips_Tricks.pdf" is included in you orcad/allegro installation package or easy to find via google.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2018, 07:09:17 am »
Placing just a via is difficult, something that should be simple.

Adding a via has traditionally been done with a double-click of the LMB. Using the Space Bar can save you several thousand mouse clicks per year. The Space Bar is an easy key to click and hence best for adding vias.
Code: [Select]
funckey " " "pop bbdrill -cursor"  (double quote – space – double quote)
The document "Allegro_Tips_Tricks.pdf" is included in you orcad/allegro installation package or easy to find via google.
Yeah, but first you have to go to a different software, specify via for a layer stackup, save it, screw around with enviroment setting for the folders, import it to your pcb, do this for each and every type of via you want. In Altium you just change a layer while routing, and a via is there. With default values that are usually fine.

The 3D is  very basic compared to Altium. A lot of things are very cumbersome.

Setup -> User Preferences Editor -> Interactive 3D canvas

Your knowledge about this software is limited. Robert Feranec "Fedevel Academy" created a new course for OrCAD/Allegro. I highly recommend it for everyone who is interested to improve his skills.

Cheers
hammy
I dont doubt that. After spending thousands of hours in one EDA software, it will take time to learn another one. But I'm seeing stuff, which I dont like and what is totally not intuitive. For example thermal reliefs. In altium, it is a properly, with pictures, explaining exacly what you are doing. Here, you need to edit Dyn_Thermal_Con_Type. This is something that is fine in a source code of some software, not the final product. And perhaps if I would spend the price of a compact executive sedan, then I would get all the functionality, and another million magic settings.
 

Offline hammy

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2018, 09:18:11 am »
After spending thousands of hours in one EDA software, it will take time to learn another one. But I'm seeing stuff, which I dont like and what is totally not intuitive.

Sure, it's the same for me with AD. They are both total different. UI, style, usage. After several hundred hours you are used to it and it feels "intuitive". The way you think and plan adapts to the software. After this point every other software feels awkward.  :D

 

Offline robertferanec

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2018, 04:58:45 am »
I personally can't judge to what extend Altium is playing the same game and tries to get people to buy more and more software options as you become used to the tool.

Well, Altium are a publicly listed company and they have to keep:
a) The shareholders happy
and
b) Show continued growth in revenue

And the only way to do a) is to do b)

- I agree, a lot about Altium's current strategy is about keeping shareholders happy. Let's see what will happen and how far it will go.

- About the market share, this graph from Natasha's Baker ( SnapEDA ) answer in Quora looks interesting:

There is a note about PADS: " ...Since PADS support on SnapEDA is in Beta, it is most certainly under-represented here ...", so ignore the PADS number.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 05:06:13 am by robertferanec »
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2018, 06:03:14 am »
I personally can't judge to what extend Altium is playing the same game and tries to get people to buy more and more software options as you become used to the tool.

Well, Altium are a publicly listed company and they have to keep:
a) The shareholders happy
and
b) Show continued growth in revenue

And the only way to do a) is to do b)

- I agree, a lot about Altium's current strategy is about keeping shareholders happy. Let's see what will happen and how far it will go.

- About the market share, this graph from Natasha's Baker ( SnapEDA ) answer in Quora looks interesting:

There is a note about PADS: " ...Since PADS support on SnapEDA is in Beta, it is most certainly under-represented here ...", so ignore the PADS number.

I'm sorry, but 12% KiCAD is just not believable. Also 26% Eagle...
This is more like a statistics, on how many users are incapable of creating a library.
I dont think there will be a clear statement on the number of licenses from the big 3 companies. They are busy charging 5 digit numbers for a single seat, and mixing IC design tools with PCB design tools. Meanwhile if you mention Zuken for an engineer here, they will think it is some sort of German candy and Pads is something they showed once in university twenty years ago. And eagle is a bird, and a software that is almost as good for designing PCBs as MS Paint.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Allegro out of business?
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2018, 06:07:43 am »
.... and Pads is something they showed once in university twenty years ago.
Pads is heavily used in China, but mostly pirate copies, so they won't appear in the statistics.
 

Offline Karel

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The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 


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