Allegro out of business?

[tszaboo]

source: www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/investor_presentation_august_2015.pdf (page 50)

That is revenue, not number of seats. Allegro is about 5x the price for a full config.
And OK, big companies are going to use Allegro for example, but they are not going to ask you to know the tool because "We have CIDs doing the PCBs". So in the end you have a lot of tiny companies working with Altium, where the enginer has to do sch, layout and sometimes coding.

[mrtn]

That makes Altium sound like the dominant player in the market. It isn't, although this forum often makes it seem so.

https://www.slideshare.net/mjoass/altium-2016-presentation

Has anyone here tried Zuken? I'm trying to get a "test drive" license but my company and their company's legal departments are figuring out the NDA. It's been a month so far. 

[ajawamnet]

You have to realize that Cadence is a chip design tool company. They give ORCAD and full seats of Allegro away to their IC design customers.  I've talked to the old AD guys and they battle that constantly when trying to get Altium in larger tech companies. A full seat of Allegro is about $50K - and try to get basic signal integrity from Cadence (Sigrity) - I was told a years subscription is silly expensive.

 Here's an example.

In Altium, there's an output generator that will great plots/PDFs of each layer, one per sheet configurable to show things like mech layers board outlines on all sheets.  To get that same style of plot out of Allegro is something like an $11K option according to our VAR - it's tied into Advanced Package Designer. If you go thru Allegro help, you'll see alot of it is directed toward their IC tools....

I was an ORCAD customer back int he DOS days; when the first Windoized versions came out in 1995 (6.22 for sch; a bastardized Masstec eventually for PCB) it ate one of my dsn's so bad even tech support couldn't recover it. I jumped to Protel, which was actually had very similar key shortcuts to DOS SDT Orcad.

Every once in a while I'll update my Orcad Allegro thing; but I get the more expensive version since the only thing I really use is the Specctra autorouter (based on the old Cooper & Chan) - I have tons of DO files gathered over the years.  Altium screwed that a bit with AD15 I think, where if you have more than one clearance it hoses the global with the largest size - but the dsn is ASCII so it's easy to fix.


More information on my lab and shop:
http://www.ajawamnet.com
http://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawam3/swarf/swarf.htm

[Karel]

Has anyone here tried Zuken? I'm trying to get a "test drive" license but my company and their company's legal departments are figuring out the NDA. It's been a month so far. 

Only Cadstar, which is terrible in my opinion. The more professional packages CR-5000 and CR-8000 I haven't tried.

[nctnico]

source: www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/investor_presentation_august_2015.pdf (page 50)

That is revenue, not number of seats. Allegro is about 5x the price for a full config.

That is not entirely true. If you want to do schematics and PCB design then Orcad Capture + component library management (CIS) + Allegro PCB (including the signal integrity tool) is way cheaper compared to Altium.

[ehughes]

Zuken is primarily used in Japan.    Be prepared for a 80k price tag for CR-8000 by the time its all done.     They have been more aggressively marketing in the USA and more flexible with pricing but when I asked a few years ago it was nuts.

[T3sl4co1l]

Hmm, I wonder if CR-8000 is what makes all those minimal-etch boards?  Anyone know?

Stuff like this:
https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5501912915_dc67316169_b.jpg
What's especially weird (compared to anything else) is the "trace" around C24(-), which makes a complete loop around those nearby components and joins back up with itself, and then goes up and down into the rest of the nearby circuit.  Except wait, in fact it joins up with itself a second time again, between R83 and IC5-4!

The random shapes, of both traces and gaps, is so weird.  It seems traditional from the tape days, unless they were using some CAD back then too (e.g., I've taken apart plenty of ~70s radios with a similar design style, but smoothly curved -- presumably hand taped), but it baffles me what EDA tools would be so arbitrary and redundant, unless it's because of forever-bad autorouting.

Tim

[nctnico]

https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5501912915_dc67316169_b.jpg
The random shapes, of both traces and gaps, is so weird.  It seems traditional from the tape days, unless they were using some CAD back then too (e.g., I've taken apart plenty of ~70s radios with a similar design style, but smoothly curved -- presumably hand taped), but it baffles me what EDA tools would be so arbitrary and redundant, unless it's because of forever-bad autorouting.

It is not a trace but a ground pour! It is pretty common in these kind of single layer designs to have the ground snake between everything.

[tszaboo]

source: www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/investor_presentation_august_2015.pdf (page 50)

That is revenue, not number of seats. Allegro is about 5x the price for a full config.

That is not entirely true. If you want to do schematics and PCB design then Orcad Capture + component library management (CIS) + Allegro PCB (including the signal integrity tool) is way cheaper compared to Altium.

I think OrCAD Pro SCH + PCB is 1500, the library tool is another 1200 (dont quote me on that). But here is a catch: If you want to open two PCB files at the same time, you need two licenses. So you cannot just copy placement information or work without proper drawings, if you need two or more PCB in a design. Also, here is what you are missing out by not having Allegro:
https://www.fedevel.com/welldoneblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/PCB_Suites-MATRIX.pdf
Those options are expensive.

It is not a trace but a ground pour! It is pretty common in these kind of single layer designs to have the ground snake between everything.

And those tiny ground pours are absolutely useless.

[ebastler]

It is not a trace but a ground pour! It is pretty common in these kind of single layer designs to have the ground snake between everything.

And those tiny ground pours are absolutely useless.

Why? A fat, snaking ground connection is still better than a thin, snaking ground trace, isn't it?

And whether or not the remaining "pour" areas provide electrical benefits, I was under the impression that they are also left in the copper layer since it makes the etching chemical last longer (compared to a layout where everything except the active traces gets etched away). So every pour is useful, in at least one way.

Why does that remind me of this? I digress...

[nctnico]

source: www.altium.com/resources/investor-announcement/investor_presentation_august_2015.pdf (page 50)

That is revenue, not number of seats. Allegro is about 5x the price for a full config.

That is not entirely true. If you want to do schematics and PCB design then Orcad Capture + component library management (CIS) + Allegro PCB (including the signal integrity tool) is way cheaper compared to Altium.

I think OrCAD Pro SCH + PCB is 1500, the library tool is another 1200 (dont quote me on that). But here is a catch: If you want to open two PCB files at the same time, you need two licenses. So you cannot just copy placement information or work without proper drawings, if you need two or more PCB in a design. Also, here is what you are missing out by not having Allegro:
https://www.fedevel.com/welldoneblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/PCB_Suites-MATRIX.pdf
Those options are expensive.

That comparative matrix is very outdated. The standard PCB Designer has most of the features nowadays: http://www.orcad.com/products/orcad-pcb-designer/compare

[asmi]

and try to get basic signal integrity from Cadence (Sigrity) - I was told a years subscription is silly expensive.

SI tools (SigXplorer) are now included even with the most basic license (Orcad PCB Editor Standard), the only feature that's not available (requires SI upgrade) is parameters sweep - but you can still "sweep" manually by changing parameters and re-running sim. And that alone makes this offer worth looking at as it's the cheapest sim that supports IBIS/HSPICE models. Sigrity is something else entirely.

[robertferanec]

That is not entirely true. If you want to do schematics and PCB design then Orcad Capture + component library management (CIS) + Allegro PCB (including the signal integrity tool) is way cheaper compared to Altium.

I think OrCAD Pro SCH + PCB is 1500, the library tool is another 1200 (dont quote me on that). But here is a catch: If you want to open two PCB files at the same time, you need two licenses. So you cannot just copy placement information or work without proper drawings, if you need two or more PCB in a design. Also, here is what you are missing out by not having Allegro:
https://www.fedevel.com/welldoneblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/PCB_Suites-MATRIX.pdf
Those options are expensive.

About the link: I need to update the whole post where the Matrix is located - or better I need to write a new post or create a video to compare Altium and OrCAD Professional.

I am currently testing OrCAD Professional. The features and capabilities are quite good. I do not know what the exact price is now, but I have got mine 2 years ago for I think around 2000 USD (depends what kind of deal you are able to get). What I am very surprised is, that OrCAD Professional includes also things which you can use to route for example T-Branch memory layout (this means you can set rules to compare length of branches and that is a very useful feature + once you setup the rules, you can do interactive length tuning based on the rules .. and you will know how much length you need to add to particular branch).

I was talking about this to friend of mine, and we both agreed, that for today's designs, differential pairs and memory layout is essential, so probably this is reason why companies are including in cheaper versions also the things which used to be high speed a few years ago. Of course, I guess other reason could be, that Altium has taken a lot of market, so others are trying to catch up and need to offer something interesting.

[asmi]

I am currently testing OrCAD Professional. The features and capabilities are quite good. I do not know what the exact price is now, but I have got mine 2 years ago for I think around 2000 USD (depends what kind of deal you are able to get).

Retail price is $5k, but their sales people seem willing to negotiate.

What I am very surprised is, that OrCAD Professional includes also things which you can use to route for example T-Branch memory layout (this means you can set rules to compare length of branches and that is a very useful feature + once you setup the rules, you can do interactive length tuning based on the rules .. and you will know how much length you need to add to particular branch).

I was talking about this to friend of mine, and we both agreed, that for today's designs, differential pairs and memory layout is essential, so probably this is reason why companies are including in cheaper versions also the things which used to be high speed a few years ago. Of course, I guess other reason could be, that Altium has taken a lot of market, so others are trying to catch up and need to offer something interesting.

I really like SI functionality included into Pro license as it allows you to simulate the trace as it's routed on your board (SigXplorer can extract trace information from your board file). So far all my high-speed traces (DDR3L, HDMI, USB 3) worked on a first try just like sim said they would. I also used it to determine best termination values and their best position on a board to achieve optimal SI.

BTW I love your videos on YouTube, I only wish your Orcad course would be a bit cheaper for "advanced hobbyists" like me There is A LOT of features packed in, and every so often I still encounter new ones

[robertferanec]

BTW I love your videos on YouTube, I only wish your Orcad course would be a bit cheaper for "advanced hobbyists" like me There is A LOT of features packed in, and every so often I still encounter new ones

- Thank you asmi.

PS: Before recording the course, I was planning to set the price around 99USD. It just took much longer to prepare (7 months in total) and duration of the course itself is much longer than what I was originally expecting (almost 25h). Send me an email and make a note about this post