Altium Designer new pricing model and high end / low end tool in development

[jeremy]

Diptrace is (very) slowly going native mac thanks to new native delphi compilers: http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/mac-osx-development

I think I remembered reading that they have finished porting their code to Delphi XE5 for windows.

edit: very slim info here: http://www.diptrace.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=132&start=20

[Mechatrommer]

Just wondering what people's views are on them going cross platform to include Linux and Apple Mac? Is it even feasible to do so? Eagle does and dip trace does to an extent using wine...

Altium has always been written in Delphi. The software devs can tell you how feasible it would be to do that...

Delphi RAD is one thing... the exclusion of OpenGL engine also can give you some hint. Diptrace also developed in Delphi but it is claimed to run in MacOX as well.

[EEVblog]

With regards to going cross-platform, I think that realistically it would be a waste of time and effort for Altium to even try, even if they could do it.
The reason is simple. Altium is a serious CAD tool, and if you want to use it, then you will use whatever hardware and O/S it's designed for. When you spend $5K-$6K on CAD software, it's nothign to dedicate a $1K-$2K machine to run it. This isn't consumer software land. There is a reason why hardly any pro engineering tools work on the Mac

[mikeselectricstuff]

I look forward to viewing my new board in glorious 3D. Oh, after I edit all my library parts to include the 3D data.

No, you don't need to do that, just hit the 3D button and you get your blank board in 3D. That alone is incredibly useful as a visual aid.

Assuming your library parts have 3D models...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hi GrumpyUnclePete

what you describe was  named P-cad 2006  O0

opuss sorry altium have die and put it on the trash  after promise to integrate it to altium DXP ..

the fun joke it offer me a discount of 50% for "Upgrade" to altium

that good have paid p-cad 12,000$ and offer to "upgrade" to altium that sell for 5,000   
personally i call it paid for downgrade but altium sale rep see it as major upgrade

so now i use zuken but learn curve was very sharp   ,

i  hope some one made P-Cad 2014 ;-)  so easy to use and intuitive and do only PCB noting else

When they retired PCAD I had a look at AD but soon the dealer I wouldn't "upgrade" even if it was free. PCAD2006 still works just fine for me -  no probs working on Win7.
The only issue I had is they refused to sell me an upgrade from the 400 component limit, but it took me about 2 mins to find a full license serial number online & didn't even need to reinstall - I'd have been happy to pay but if they won't take my money then screw 'em.   
I have heard that someone was doing a clone of PCAD but would be surprised if it ever happens.

[Mechatrommer]

Altium is a serious CAD tool, and if you want to use it, then you will use whatever hardware and O/S it's designed for.

i thought a "serious CAD"s use OpenGL instead of "game oriented" DirectX. i dont know, but from reading internet, Altium is not classified as "high end" CAD. YMMV. :edit: and maybe this is due to the long historic war between MsDX and OGL, Altium has picked there side and forced users to do the same...

[EEVblog]

Assuming your library parts have 3D models...

No, I'm talking about the blank board. You don't need 3D library parts for that, and it's still incredibly useful to get a photo realistic rendering of what your board will look like. You can even "fly" inside layers and via holes etc.

[EEVblog]

i thought a "serious CAD"s use OpenGL instead of "game oriented" DirectX. i dont know, but from reading internet, Altium is not classified as "high end" CAD. YMMV. :edit: and maybe this is due to the long historic war between MsDX and OGL, Altium has picked there side and forced users to do the same...

I said serious CAD tool, not "high end". Altium is a mid level tool, pushing into a the high-ish end, depending upon how you define high end.

[JuKu]

[
The latest Altium does offer some really valuable stuff over Protel 98 or 99SE, it's well worth getting to learn it.

Which part exactly is the valuable bit? I'm all ears because at present I don't have a choice - I have to use Altium Designer.

Push and shove
Bus routing
AD13 is stable
Polygon pours actually work

These are the biggies for me. But I agree with the vaults, FPGA stuff, software development etc. I don't see value in Altium's direction, and I let my subscription expire.

[Rufus]

I look forward to viewing my new board in glorious 3D. Oh, after I edit all my library parts to include the 3D data.

You are not really getting it. You can get to see the board in 3D along with other 3D objects such as other boards and enclosures, panels, displays/whatever. You can have a 3D model of the board to use in a 3D model of whatever it fits in. You get 3D clearance checking on the board and between the board and other 3D objects.

At 3D view of the board and components is very useful. An almost photo-realistic view of a PCB without components is very useful. Many times in the past I have opened the packet and looked at a fabbed PCB and thought why didn't I do this or that.

Some of my customers simply demand 3D models of boards I design. If your company doesn't think it has a use for them maybe you should be asking why.

[Scutarius]

I don't think that an OS is such a big deal nowadays, it should not be an issue its just a matter of which OS you like and do the best job for you, and if you are limiting that option (only mac or only windows) you are loosing, that's it.

Of corse it is a big deal to code for different platforms, specially in Altium's complexity, but you don't just stop because of that, you invest and in the way you get a more robust software that doesn't depends on windows moves (dlls, drivers etc etc)

That's how I see thinks.

[jpb]

With regards to going cross-platform, I think that realistically it would be a waste of time and effort for Altium to even try, even if they could do it.
The reason is simple. Altium is a serious CAD tool, and if you want to use it, then you will use whatever hardware and O/S it's designed for. When you spend $5K-$6K on CAD software, it's nothign to dedicate a $1K-$2K machine to run it. This isn't consumer software land. There is a reason why hardly any pro engineering tools work on the Mac

Logically this is correct, but some companies have odd policies regarding budgets so that it is easier to get software signed off than it is to get hardware (which may come under the category of capital expense). At least this is what the small company I worked in found on occasion. If you require a customer to buy hardware in addition, even if it is comparatively very cheap, you may delay or lose some sales.

[bxs]

With regards to going cross-platform, I think that realistically it would be a waste of time and effort for Altium to even try, even if they could do it.

If Altium want to enter the more entry level market they need to start looking at other OSs, those people will want to use Altium on their PCs and with that with their installed OS.

Altium is a serious CAD tool, and if you want to use it, then you will use whatever hardware and O/S it's designed for.

About MAC I don't know, but for Linux exist really serious EDA software and some companies only accept Linux.

When you spend $5K-$6K on CAD software, it's nothing to dedicate a $1K-$2K machine to run it. This isn't consumer software land.

If you go for the future entry level version of Altium all those numbers don't matter anymore.

[bxs]

About cross-platform and my point of view...

The main problem seems the Delphi and DirectX stuff.

Let's start with the simplest one, the DX, simple don't exist an excuse for them not ported the code for OpenGL, this is something that they should have done years ago, even if for now they are locked on Windows. Using and maintaining a OS specific 3D language/API when we have OpenGL 

About Delphi, where to start???
So Borland liked Pascal and wanted a object oriented language and Delphi born; so it was a new stuff only of Borland but nonetheless many software used it, today I'm still surprised of it's success, being it a so locked thing.
For years so many code was wrote that make it almost a no go porting it, it's what I think happened with Altium...

Back in the late 90s early 2000s I was also one of those sold out by Borland propaganda and all the promises of Delphi and C++ Builder going cross-platform, at least Linux; several years ago just for fun I exchanged some messages with I think at the time CodeGear(Borland -> CodeGear) about all those promises and they continue saying me that support for Linux were around the corner...

But guess what, now at 2014, let's say 15 years later and no Linux support  WTF 
This don't affect me any more because many years ago I decided that I would not develop any more software that was OS locked.

Maybe Altium also listened the "Borland propaganda" 

[Mechatrommer]

This don't affect me any more because many years ago I decided that I would not develop any more software that was OS locked.

then what is the comparable version of Delphi RAD for the not-OS-locked environment? i like the concept of OS-independent development but i cant find any "Window-GUI-control-drop-down" IDE as good as Delphi or even VB6-like environment.

i dont have issue with Altium forcing Windows OS since i'm a MsWindows user as well , and we certainly cannot blame entirely to Altium on this really (maybe due to business model, market size and SW/HW support for a particular OS). but the problem is even some cheap/older/non-compliance display driver in Win cannot run Altium just because of the fancy bell whistle of 3D. i find it unacceptable for AD to reject built-in motherboard display card and laptops, not at the current value and capacity of Altium Enterprise... from a software developer point of view, this all seems like a laziness imho, people did this from many years in the past in games and pro-CAD where compatibility/variant among GPUs was a major concern. providing option for lower quality rendering, or making a separate/encapsulated/OOP OpenGL class and a simple click to divert rendering code path is not a mega effort afaik. with a simple inclusion of OpenGL class (simple if they do it right, but a nightmare if they do it wrong) with just a finger snap, probably Altium will run nicely in most virtualboxes/Wines. they should learn from Diptrace even though it is a small market. just probably and just my 2cnts.

[PlainName]

Delphi isn't necessarily a deal breaker for porting to OtherOS: Lazarus is a freeware clone which runs on Linux, for instance:

http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/

[MatCat]

For a minute I was running AD13 in a VM under linux, it worked but the 3D stuff didn't work quite right.  Honestly going to linux is probably going to be a MUST, if they don't do it now they are going to be really struggling in about 5 years when 90% of all working machines are running Android / some other linux (anyone else see AMD announce new ARM based chipset for the desktop / server???)).  I don't think we are going to see a continued viable MS OS solution for too much longer, their market slid right off the plate.  Look at the gaming industry, Valve is pumping millions into finally getting the graphics working right on linux as tablets and phones become the mainstream computing device all running Android linux, and the CPU fabs are all switching over to ARM architecture for more and more non-mobile devices.  I give it 5 years and only mission critical machines that companies just can't be bothered to deal with changing are going to be running MS.

[bxs]

This don't affect me any more because many years ago I decided that I would not develop any more software that was OS locked.

then what is the comparable version of Delphi RAD for the not-OS-locked environment? i like the concept of OS-independent development but i cant find any "Window-GUI-control-drop-down" IDE as good as Delphi or even VB6-like environment.

I always was more BCB/C++ then Delphi/Pacal, that said, I went with Qt as the framework, for me it was gold since is core is C++ have GUI and classes that abstract almost everything in the OS and more 
Also these days you can use Qt for free even on commercial software.

With the QtCreator IDE you get "Window-GUI-control-drop-down", it isn't so good but works well enough and do the job.

For people that don't want C++ exist lots of bindings for other languages, like Pascal.

For a Delphi similar thing in Linux(and other OSs) you have Lazarus, that use several widgets, of of those is Qt 

[Pat Pending]

I don't think we are going to see a continued viable MS OS solution for too much longer, their market slid right off the plate.  I give it 5 years and only mission critical machines that companies just can't be bothered to deal with changing are going to be running MS.

Sadly I have to agree. The PC for power users is morphing into something else and the necessity of an MS OS is changing.
I have to wonder if we are headed full circle back to the days of workstations (remember Sun Sparcs/Apollo) for serious power users.

[T3sl4co1l]

Speaking of compatibility, apparently Altium doesn't run too well on hardware other than NVidia.  Did some work for a company, the laptop I was working on was no slouch -- a favorably rated Intel graphics chipset -- yet Altium ran like crap in all views: schematic and 2D and 3D PCB.  I didn't even know you could do that with DX-supporting chipsets.

As for a move to OpenGL or something, hopefully that would clear up such compatibility issues, but at some expense to speed (more levels of abstraction and more processing to implement equivalent operations), plus the large expense in development and bug-squashing to port it over in the first place, and replace all those dubiously-compatible APIs.  (Mind, IANA graphics coder..)

As for compatibility in general... whether you wish to accept it or not, business as usual is very much PC and MS centric.  I have yet to see a company that uses, say, OpenOffice files as standard.  If your spreadsheets aren't .xls or .xlsx, and you can't view them correctly, you're going to have problems.

Tim

[PlainName]

I have yet to see a company that uses, say, OpenOffice files as standard.

UK government is about to dump Microsoft and go Open Office:

Bye Bye Microsoft

That will allow companies to follow: if it's good enough for the government your supplier/client can accept the same or be olde phartes.

Coupled to which, Microsoft is actively pushing users off their products to force them onto the stuff they hate - witness XP being not just EoL but an open backdoor from April if you haven't moved on since then. If they pull the same trick with W7, is everyone going to migrate to W8.1 like Microsoft hope? After being a lifelong Microsoft user since MSDOS2 days, and with many thousands invested in PC software, my next upgrade will be to Linux rather than another Windows. The only question is how much software I can take with me via Wine or a VM.

[EEVblog]

Maybe Altium also listened the "Borland propaganda" 

Protel was originally written in Turbo Pascal for DOS, then when they made the bet on Windows, Delphi was the obvious choice, and a perfectly good choice at the time.
Then what do you do when you are locked into a tool like that? It's very hard to make the decision to switch it all to another language when things creep up on you slowly, with Delphi perhaps making promises that didn't eventuate etc, so you keep getting strung along.
I'd necessarily blame Altium for sticking with Delphi.

[MatCat]

Maybe Altium also listened the "Borland propaganda" 

Protel was originally written in Turbo Pascal for DOS, then when they made the bet on Windows, Delphi was the obvious choice, and a perfectly good choice at the time.
Then what do you do when you are locked into a tool like that? It's very hard to make the decision to switch it all to another language when things creep up on you slowly, with Delphi perhaps making promises that didn't eventuate etc, so you keep getting strung along.
I'd necessarily blame Altium for sticking with Delphi.

Problem is computer technology grows far faster then business, businesses invest into technology to take advantage of it but fail to consider what will the tech you are relying on be in 10 years?  How will your needs of that technology change in 10 years?  When it comes to industrial setting this isn't so much of an issue, it's not a big deal that the robot runs off of a Windows 95 machine, it works fine doing exactly what is was made to do.  But when it comes to software used directly by humans that idea really doesn't work.  Either you invest the time in keeping your code base working with the times, or you eventually fade out when someone else comes along that did it and it works better on the modern code base.   

In the case of Altium it all worked out well as long as Windows stayed the primary OS, and it will continue to work until that magic moment when suddenly the majority of dev tools are on something else and so are the users.   

Personally I don't see why they can't change the codebase to something more portable, go with an Eagle style marketing scheme in the mean time, use that to get funding in, invest a few million into hiring a good dev team that know good modern portable programming, utilize all of the existing IP algorithms that took the time to R&D and it shouldn't take too long, maybe a year or 2 to come up with something completely new and fresh, but still using reliable concepts that work well.

Seems to me their biggest issue is management .

[EEVblog]

Seems to me their biggest issue is management .

They have new management!
But perhaps unfortunately the new CEO actually wrote his own Ajax based development system, Morfik.
And they were stupid enough to use that for their forum etc which sucks arse.
So they don't exactly have a good track record there...

There was a rumour that they were porting it all to C++, but I heard that was a myth. Some parts are in C++ (or other things). They use what works best for what job apparently. But the core is still Delphi.

[Rufus]

In the case of Altium it all worked out well as long as Windows stayed the primary OS, and it will continue to work until that magic moment when suddenly the majority of dev tools are on something else and so are the users.

With 91% of desktops and laptops still running Windows when do you think that magic moment will be?

Try searching for PCB or general CAD packages for linux or OSX and see that Altium is far from alone.