Author Topic: What does everyone think about the recent price increase? (27%+ $7.2k->$9.2k)  (Read 22027 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline QuantumPhys

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 31
  • Country: us
for some reason Altium seems to be the most widely accepted in PCB fabs?

Eh?

For some reasons, PCB fabs in China often only accept Altium and Gerber, and almost none accept Cadence/Zuken/Pads/Eagle/KiCAD. Not that it really matters, but to me it seems to point out that Altium is much more popular in at least China.
Admittance Parameters of my GPA?!
Test gear-Tek 2445B, Tek 2715, Tek 491 Microwave Spectrum Analyzer, Keithley 5 1/2 digit meter, Agilent U1272A, DS1052E, HP Power Supply, Makergear 3D Printer, My eyes and nose
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Anyone have any idea what is Altium's market share in the higher price market? 

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20140228/pdf/42n245lfpcxq8f.pdf
See below

Quote
I have seen data indicating that Cadence/OrCad/Allegro, Zuken, and Mentor are much better off, but for some reason Altium seems to be the most widely accepted in PCB fabs?

The big three earn more in revenue than Altium, but in terms of actual seats and in what segments, that's harder to know.
Altium have approx 50,000 seats IIRC based on an investor presentation, so you culd work out the others seats if you know the average seat price, as you already know the market cap and percentages.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
For some reasons, PCB fabs in China often only accept Altium and Gerber

That is because Altium is the standard everywhere in China. Too bad no one pays for it.
 

Offline AndyC_772

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4208
  • Country: gb
  • Professional design engineer
    • Cawte Engineering | Reliable Electronics
That's a new one one me - though I only ever submit data for manufacturing in Gerber format, which every PCB manufacturer can accept. I'm not sure I (or my customers) would be too happy about releasing the original CAD source file anyway.

In fact I'm quite surprised to hear of any PCB vendor directly accepting the native format of the CAD software used to design the board. How do they know which items from which layers are to appear on the board, and which are unwanted / documentation only? Does Altium have very clearly defined separation between items which always form part of the finished board, and items which don't?

(In Cadence I have to define the set of artwork plots which form the layers of the board, along the lines of: to generate 'top copper layer 1', draw the pads from layer 1, shapes from layer 1, text from layer 1, vias from layer 1, and various other items which I want to appear on all layers by way of documentation, such as a copyright notice and alignment targets).

If I were choosing a CAD tool right now, I wouldn't even give the issue of output format a moment's thought. Every PCB tool can generate Gerber, and every PCB manufacturer can use it. They may also share other formats in common, but for me at least, the ability to send the raw CAD data to a Chinese board manufacturer is so far down the 'nice to have' list that it doesn't even register. I'm not sure it even qualifies as 'nice'.

Offline OnTheMFTopic starter

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
If you're looking at Altium, then you should also look at Cadence, PADS or Expedition before you consider dropping right down to the hobby tools.

Personally I use Orcad PCB Designer, which is a cut down version of Allegro (Cadence), and can be had for about £2k.

Yup, I've been looking at all of the major vendors. OrCad is near the top of my short list after I learned of the Altium price hike. The OrCad Pro 1-year license seems pretty enticing. I was going to be paying that in subscription costs with Altium anyway. One thing I really like about OrCad is the IDX support, which will make for some sweet photo realistic renderings in SolidWorks. Clients love that shit. The big downside is that I hear the learning curve is steep. Jury is still out though, the North American reseller will have to return my e-mails before anything happens...  >:(

 

Offline AndyC_772

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4208
  • Country: gb
  • Professional design engineer
    • Cawte Engineering | Reliable Electronics
Orcad PCB Designer - a.k.a. Allegro - does indeed have a learning curve like a brick wall. I'd never describe it as intuitive.

It is, however, very capable, and now I've been using it for a while, it has indeed become second nature. Moreover, since it's the same software all the way up to the most capable versions of Allegro (just with different options enabled), I know it's not something I'm going to outgrow, and the effort invested in learning it will never be wasted.

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2845
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
For what its worth,  I just put my foot down and refused to pay the asking price.  And told them that they needed to be realistic.    A day later our reseller came back with a "realistic" offer.     The discounts where significant.  They were going to either get some money or no money.

The "List" price is one thing, the actual price you need to pay seems to be something different.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Laertes

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 58
  • Country: de
For what its worth,  I just put my foot down and refused to pay the asking price.  And told them that they needed to be realistic.    A day later our reseller came back with a "realistic" offer.     The discounts where significant.  They were going to either get some money or no money.

The "List" price is one thing, the actual price you need to pay seems to be something different.

I have had the same experience. We originally bought two seats, one with PCB and one Schematic only for something along the lines of 6-7k € in early 2013 and then got another full seat plus the PCB part for the second license for 6k€ about three weeks ago. So that makes a total average of around 4k€ per seat, which is much more reasonable than 9k(or the 6k€ that 9k australian dollars would be)...
And that kind of holds true for most software packages - if they're really expensive, it pays off to talk to their sales reps and bargain a bit.
 

Online Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11534
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
For what its worth,  I just put my foot down and refused to pay the asking price.  And told them that they needed to be realistic.    A day later our reseller came back with a "realistic" offer.     The discounts where significant.  They were going to either get some money or no money.

The "List" price is one thing, the actual price you need to pay seems to be something different.
that type of "bargain" business is very common around here.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline OnTheMFTopic starter

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
For what its worth,  I just put my foot down and refused to pay the asking price.  And told them that they needed to be realistic.    A day later our reseller came back with a "realistic" offer.     The discounts where significant.  They were going to either get some money or no money.

The "List" price is one thing, the actual price you need to pay seems to be something different.

Yea, they gave me some "discounts," just like every other vendor does. The discounted price was still more expensive than the old price, so I was not very moved. In the end I went with a time based license for OrCad Professional. Cadence gave me some really good discounts on training on top of a strangely low price for a 1-year time based license. It was only marginally more than Altium's yearly subscription price. At least this way if I find I dislike OrCad then I'm not out too much money. The break even point where a perpetual license for OrCad Pro was cheaper was 6.35 years. Pretty economical, especially when I'm not really sold on OrCad either.

 

Offline Poe

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 246
Considering what it does and what it is.....  The cost is silly.  It's like woman's jeans.  They will charge what they can get away with when the market is not sufficiently competitive.  Hopefully Kicad gets better.  Even if you prefer Altium, hopefully that will put more pressure on them to charge a reasonable amount.
 

Offline etzz

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 8
"I went with a time based license for OrCad Professional"

Post back how Orcad is working for you (or maybe there are some Orcad users here that can report).  I tried out the demo a few weeks ago.  It seemed ok, but some of the "tests" I ran did not turn out so well.  For example, in PCB editor, I never could figure out how to get a dimension down (although I did not read a bit of documentation, just experimenting).  It strikes me as a no frills, get things done sort of tool.  This is what I would prefer.  I have been using Altium since 2006, and am getting tired of all the fluff and buggy releases.  I can make it work, though. 

I did watch an Orcad video that showcased a .pdf datasheet to library symbol converter function. It seemed awesome, no more typing in and editing pin names from datasheets.  It opened my eyes to what can be done if a CAD vendor focuses on the core problem at hand (schematic and pcb).
I think moving to Orcad would be too painful and take too long, but maybe not.

The baseline autorouter that comes with the pro package is limited to 6 copper layers, but you can do a lot with that (+ its basically CCT spectra which is very good).  Routing with 6 layer groups within a larger stackup could get most of the jobs I have done. 

Let us know how it works for you, or how it compares to Altium!
Thanks, Eric
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 882
  • Country: nf
I have been using Altium since 2006, and am getting tired of all the fluff and buggy releases.  I can make it work, though.

I'm in the same boat (Altium ver 6.9). I have used Altium 14 on several contracting jobs along with Proteus (which I actually prefer).

My last 2 pcbs were actually completed in DipTrace as its fairly intuitive & easy to run.

It all depends on your requirements. If your boards are not particularly complex then DipTrace will do the job at a good price.

If your boards are more complex then Proteus is easy to get up & running & is still good value.

If your boards are pretty complex then Altium will do the job for you at a fairly high price.

The difference is that I like the guys at DipTrace & at Labcenter. I neither like the Altium software & even more dislike Altium the Company.
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline AndyC_772

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4208
  • Country: gb
  • Professional design engineer
    • Cawte Engineering | Reliable Electronics
Post back how Orcad is working for you (or maybe there are some Orcad users here that can report).  I tried out the demo a few weeks ago.  It seemed ok, but some of the "tests" I ran did not turn out so well.  For example, in PCB editor, I never could figure out how to get a dimension down (although I did not read a bit of documentation, just experimenting)

I use it daily. I'd completely agree that it's not very intuitive.

To add a dimension, choose Manufacture > Dimension Environment, which puts the tool into a 'dimension adding' mode.

Then right click and select Linear Dimension (or any other type) from the pop-up menu. Click two points and it'll automatically add a dimension.

Offline MrAureliusR

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: ca
Unfortunately, pirating Altium seems to be painfully easy. Not that I've done it myself, but have seen other hobbyists locally with the full version for free. Sad that Altium doesn't have different levels like DipTrace, maybe I would actually consider using it.
--------------------------------------
Canadian hacker
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Unfortunately, pirating Altium seems to be painfully easy. Not that I've done it myself, but have seen other hobbyists locally with the full version for free. Sad that Altium doesn't have different levels like DipTrace, maybe I would actually consider using it.

They will be coming out with a lower cost version soon-ish.
Different package though, not Altium Designer.
 

Offline MrAureliusR

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: ca
Unfortunately, pirating Altium seems to be painfully easy. Not that I've done it myself, but have seen other hobbyists locally with the full version for free. Sad that Altium doesn't have different levels like DipTrace, maybe I would actually consider using it.

They will be coming out with a lower cost version soon-ish.
Different package though, not Altium Designer.
Was that the secret call after the Amp Hour?
--------------------------------------
Canadian hacker
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 882
  • Country: nf
They (Altium) will be coming out with a lower cost version soon-ish.
Different package though, not Altium Designer.

Any time frame for this new release Dave?
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1283
  • Country: us
  • A sociable geek chemist
Dave Jones ?@eevblog

You heard it here first - the @altium FREE version IS happening... #ItAintDead


Dave Jones ?@eevblog 13h

@alberto0714 @altium It will be released this year. For Altium, that's accurate :->
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline Bassman59

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2501
  • Country: us
  • Yes, I do this for a living
Unfortunately, pirating Altium seems to be painfully easy. Not that I've done it myself, but have seen other hobbyists locally with the full version for free. Sad that Altium doesn't have different levels like DipTrace, maybe I would actually consider using it.

They will be coming out with a lower cost version soon-ish.
Different package though, not Altium Designer.

So, if this "lower-cost version" isn't Altium Designer with, perhaps, layer or pin or size limits, then how does that benefit Altium? I mean, if the libraries are different, or if the file formats are different, or if it just works different, that seems to be at cross purposes. Wouldn't Altium want to provide a low-cost tool that can be upgraded to the full tool?
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
More expensive, more bugs and many updates - too many updates.
Sorry, currently I'm not very happy with Altium.

 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 882
  • Country: nf
More expensive, more bugs and many updates - too many updates.
Sorry, currently I'm not very happy with Altium.

I'm with you on all of these comments.

DipTrace has come a long way with its new release this year & Proteus is an excellent package too.

The question is, if you need all of the smarts that Altium offers, are there any other competitive alternatives?
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline etzz

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 8
As far as competition to Altium, I think Cadence ORCAD and PCB Designer are an option.  The Pro suite is reasonable, and if you want to rent, its not much more than Altium yearly maintenance.  As far as I can tell, it is missing blind and buried vias (paid option).  The autorouter is limited to 6 layers, but you can do a lot with that by routing in sections.  Also, the Autorouter/system  may not have full blown high speed support, but it does include the basics.  This means you might have to complete a few high speed tasks manually, but they could still be done.  You can get the rundown on the Cadence website.  This still compares favorably to Altium, as I am sure the autorouter will be much better (actually work).
Best,
Eric

PS:  An option for me has been to use Altium Ver. 10.  I am still on V10, as I also got fed up with the bugs and unneeded feature churn.  In a few years, i may come back on board, but Altium will need to start focusing on the schematic/PCB tool, and work on the bugs.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 02:54:43 am by etzz »
 

Offline Gunb

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 221
  • Country: de
Today Altium 14 crashed 2x and generated an error report to send it to Altium.
Independend from that sometimes Altium hangs for a few seconds when starting
an operation.

Same on my colleague's machine. One can notice that it has become worse over the
years.

No written handbook, obsolete video tutorials and very expensive training courses.
Well, makes me angry to pay so much money for it. Altium has to become much better.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 882
  • Country: nf
An option for me has been to use Altium Ver. 10.  I am still on V10, as I also got fed up with the bugs and unneeded feature churn.  In a few years, i may come back on board, but Altium will need to start focusing on the schematic/PCB tool, and work on the bugs.

I'm in a similar boat & have decided to use DipTrace for many of my new designs. I own Altium 6.9 & have contracted using Altium 13 & 14. I can't say I'm very impressed which is a shame as I started with Protel EasyTrax & AutoTrax in the early 1990's after moving over from smARTworks.

Proteus is very nice too :)
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf