Author Topic: 10watts for all 4, will it work  (Read 13797 times)

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Offline dave_j_fanTopic starter

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2017, 10:21:25 am »
Of course it will do!
You can also expand it. At each output from the switcher, connect another switcher ... and, continuing this, you can have unlimited power/energy to lighten up the entire planet.
But not only this. If you start combining the outputs after a few billions of switchers, there will be plenty of power for trains, factories, homes, etc.
Still, if from some of the outputs re-feed the input, you can save and battery ... After start-up, you can remove it and your invaluable inverter!
Watch out! There will be many who will try to steal your designs ... ...

 ::) will see ...

 for your information i have a DC led tube , i added PWM and reached 12hours light ... originally it was giving 3-4hour
 dont bring physics if you dont know pulsed and switched led lighting saves lot energy .

 however i  have less test knowledge on AC so asked experts
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2017, 12:01:49 pm »
for your information i have a DC led tube , i added PWM and reached 12hours light ... originally it was giving 3-4hour
 dont bring physics if you dont know pulsed and switched led lighting saves lot energy .

You assume you are getting same light output while LED is PWM-dimmed, but you are not. Do you have lux meter to measure light output? If not, then take two identical LED bulbs, run one w/o PWM and another with PWM at the same time so you can compare brightness. It will differ for sure.
 

Offline dave_j_fanTopic starter

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2017, 01:28:38 pm »
for your information i have a DC led tube , i added PWM and reached 12hours light ... originally it was giving 3-4hour
 dont bring physics if you dont know pulsed and switched led lighting saves lot energy .

You assume you are getting same light output while LED is PWM-dimmed, but you are not. Do you have lux meter to measure light output? If not, then take two identical LED bulbs, run one w/o PWM and another with PWM at the same time so you can compare brightness. It will differ for sure.
it may be slight reduced but probably reducing heat loss it maintains good amount of intensity.The tube is  very good usable light for small kitchen.

I have even distributed Khz range  power boosted lights . 12v to 230v . pulsed mode maintains nearly same intensity in bulbs .My observation.

 I junked 3 circuits for lower light , finally found super bright one
 

Online Zero999

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2017, 04:17:33 pm »
Why you are using 50Hz for sine and 500Hz for inverter?
Because an off the shelf LED lamp will be designed for 50Hz operation, not 500Hz. Think about it.

Quote
[edit] Anyway - you just completely ignore all the other "specs" of the project including 10W power limiting of inverter output, it's duty cycle which for sure will not be 100%, you put hi-voltage 47uF capacitor into low cost LED (!).
It's typical for the input stage of a mains powered LED. Do some research, before making stupid comments.

Quote
Also this:

>Did you refer to the data sheet, paying attention to the part about  ton control, pin 8, the TONMOD pin?

is not detailed explanation but more like trolling.
Don't accuse others of trolling, just because you don't understand something.

for your information i have a DC led tube , i added PWM and reached 12hours light ... originally it was giving 3-4hour
 dont bring physics if you dont know pulsed and switched led lighting saves lot energy .

You assume you are getting same light output while LED is PWM-dimmed, but you are not. Do you have lux meter to measure light output? If not, then take two identical LED bulbs, run one w/o PWM and another with PWM at the same time so you can compare brightness. It will differ for sure.
it may be slight reduced but probably reducing heat loss it maintains good amount of intensity.The tube is  very good usable light for small kitchen.

I have even distributed Khz range  power boosted lights . 12v to 230v . pulsed mode maintains nearly same intensity in bulbs .My observation.

 I junked 3 circuits for lower light , finally found super bright one

Have you measured the power consumption?

Have you done any objective measurements of the brightness, using a meter, rather than ones eyes?

Bear in mind the eyes can easily be fooled. A 10W bulb won't look twice as bright as a 5W bulb.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 04:25:36 pm by Hero999 »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2017, 06:35:32 pm »
>Because an off the shelf LED lamp will be designed for 50Hz operation, not 500Hz. Think about it.

Oh, thank you for schooling. Actually I wanted to know where 500Hz for inverter came from

>It's typical for the input stage of a mains powered LED. Do some research, before making stupid comments.

47uF typical for low cost LED bulbs? - Show your data.

>>>Did you refer to the data sheet, paying attention to the part about  ton control, pin 8, the TONMOD pin?
>>is not detailed explanation but more like trolling.
>Don't accuse others of trolling, just because you don't understand something.

Then explain in details so we can understand why particular chip will work from dimmed 50Hz sine wave but will not work from 50Hz PWM square wave. I want to know which part of mentioned datasheet explains that. So I ask you again: please give detailed explanation.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2017, 07:51:59 pm »
>Because an off the shelf LED lamp will be designed for 50Hz operation, not 500Hz. Think about it.

Oh, thank you for schooling. Actually I wanted to know where 500Hz for inverter came from

>It's typical for the input stage of a mains powered LED. Do some research, before making stupid comments.

47uF typical for low cost LED bulbs? - Show your data.

>>>Did you refer to the data sheet, paying attention to the part about  ton control, pin 8, the TONMOD pin?
>>is not detailed explanation but more like trolling.
>Don't accuse others of trolling, just because you don't understand something.

Then explain in details so we can understand why particular chip will work from dimmed 50Hz sine wave but will not work from 50Hz PWM square wave. I want to know which part of mentioned datasheet explains that. So I ask you again: please give detailed explanation.

  • Please read the thread from the beginning. The original poster intends to drive a bulb rated for 50Hz, using an inverter with a much higher frequency square wave. It should work with a continuous duty cycle +/-230V to 325V square wave, as long as the frequency isn't too high for the diodes in the bridge rectifier to switch, but not for a square wave with 50% duty or modified sine wave.
  • The value of the filter capacitor is not important. It was an example of a typical input stage of an LED lamp. Bridge rectifier -> surge limiting resistor -> capacitor. The idea was to demonstrate, that powering it from a 50% duty cycle square wave can cause excessive power dissipation in one of the components. Another issue is, this may work on the bench but prove unreliable in the field. Often overstressed components don't fail immediately but blow up much later.
  • The dimming function of that is dependant on the mains frequency being near 50Hz, 60Hz or whatever the circuit is designed for and changing the frequency will mess it up. Don't forget that he doesn't have any control of the circuit being used to power the LED, only the voltage input to it. Another issue is he doesn't want to dim the LED. He wants to power it at full brightness, whilst reducing the power consumption: an impossible feat!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 08:36:41 pm by Hero999 »
 

Offline dave_j_fanTopic starter

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2017, 07:53:26 pm »
Why you are using 50Hz for sine and 500Hz for inverter?
Because an off the shelf LED lamp will be designed for 50Hz operation, not 500Hz. Think about it.

Quote
[edit] Anyway - you just completely ignore all the other "specs" of the project including 10W power limiting of inverter output, it's duty cycle which for sure will not be 100%, you put hi-voltage 47uF capacitor into low cost LED (!).
It's typical for the input stage of a mains powered LED. Do some research, before making stupid comments.

Quote
Also this:

>Did you refer to the data sheet, paying attention to the part about  ton control, pin 8, the TONMOD pin?

is not detailed explanation but more like trolling.
Don't accuse others of trolling, just because you don't understand something.

for your information i have a DC led tube , i added PWM and reached 12hours light ... originally it was giving 3-4hour
 dont bring physics if you dont know pulsed and switched led lighting saves lot energy .

You assume you are getting same light output while LED is PWM-dimmed, but you are not. Do you have lux meter to measure light output? If not, then take two identical LED bulbs, run one w/o PWM and another with PWM at the same time so you can compare brightness. It will differ for sure.
it may be slight reduced but probably reducing heat loss it maintains good amount of intensity.The tube is  very good usable light for small kitchen.

I have even distributed Khz range  power boosted lights . 12v to 230v . pulsed mode maintains nearly same intensity in bulbs .My observation.

 I junked 3 circuits for lower light , finally found super bright one

Have you measured the power consumption?

Have you done any objective measurements of the brightness, using a meter, rather than ones eyes?

Bear in mind the eyes can easily be fooled. A 10W bulb won't look twice as bright as a 5W bulb.

i respect that new information ... i stated  by observation of the light in the room not just bulb on table.
Today 2 channel test success with 5Watt and 4watt .the 5watt leds had flicker,todays test used TRIAC. It is maintaining good brightness.
may be 3-4channel mux will be ok.

all inverters i have given to poor

i will get parts and test 1bulb inverter to drive 2 bulbs.technically it must work because  230V test is promishing .
Just frequency is in khz range .


« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 08:20:52 pm by dave_j_fan »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2017, 11:48:50 pm »
>Please read the thread from the beginning. The original poster intends to drive a bulb rated for 50Hz, using an inverter with a much higher frequency square wave.

I can say the same to you because:
1) I am not original poster
2) I suggested inverter with tunable frequency 50-400Hz range and tunable duty cycle, with input current limiter which will essentially limit output power to nominal.
3) you jumped on me when I said:"I shall remind that main topic was not "capacitive droppers" as such but exceeding ripple rating of input capacitor and it's consequent failure. Even in case of constant current switching regulators square wave input shall not accelerate failure rate unless design is flawed."
4) Then you came up with LTspice design where you conveniently (for you) ignore fact that inverter frequency, output voltage and duty cycle can be adjusted to meet design requirements one of which would be "do not accelerate LED bulb failure".

I suggest you to run your inverter LTspice not with 50% duty cycle, but 100% which essentially is DC coming out of bridge rectifier, tune peak voltage so LEDs dissipate identical power compared to AC sinewave design and only then check power dissipation in the inrush limiter resistor. Maybe then you will understand what I did mean by saying "Even in case of constant current switching regulators square wave input shall not accelerate failure rate unless design is flawed.".


>The dimming function of that is dependant on the mains frequency being near 50Hz, 60Hz or whatever the circuit is designed for and changing the frequency will mess it up.
 :palm: well then dont change it. remember? - I did leave 50Hz option in my offer.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 12:15:04 am by ogden »
 

Online Zero999

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2017, 12:17:25 am »
>Please read the thread from the beginning. The original poster intends to drive a bulb rated for 50Hz, using an inverter with a much higher frequency square wave.

I can say the same to you because:
1) I am not original poster
No but you can read what they've written.

Quote
2) I suggested inverter with tunable frequency 50-400Hz range and tunable duty cycle, with input current limiter which will essentially limit output power to nominal.
The original poster mentioned using a higher frequency, than 50Hz mains first.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/10watts-for-all-4-will-it-work/msg1344171/#msg1344171

Quote
3) you jumped on me when I said:"I shall remind that main topic was not "capacitive droppers" as such but exceeding ripple rating of input capacitor and it's consequent failure. Even in case of constant current switching regulators square wave input shall not accelerate failure rate unless design is flawed."
No one jumped on anyone. The point was that there are a variety of different designs of LED lamps. It's impossible to know what they'll do when you change the input frequency/duty cycle, without lots of prior testing or reverse engineering. What's worse is that with a standard fitting, someone could easilly change the lamp to an incompatible one, which could blow up.

Quote
Then you came up with LTspice design where you conveniently (for you) ignore fact that inverter frequency, output voltage and duty cycle can be adjusted to meet design requirements.
No, I modelled the typical input stage of an LED lamp and explained why it can overheat if you try to dim it by PWMing the input voltage.

Quote
I suggest you to run your inverter LTspice not with 50% duty cycle, but 100% which essentially is DC coming out of bridge rectifier, tune peak voltage so LEDs dissipate identical power compared to AC sinewave design and only then check power dissipation in the inrush limiter resistor. Maybe then you will understand what I did mean by saying "Even in case of constant current switching regulators square wave input shall not accelerate failure rate unless design is flawed.".
I know and even said previously that it will work off DC, but what's the point when with 100% duty cycle, there will be no reduction in power consumption or brightness?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/10watts-for-all-4-will-it-work/msg1345097/#msg1345097

Varying the supply voltage (whether AC or DC) will not change the brightness or power consumption of some LED lamps, because they contain a constant current driver, which tries to keep the current through the LED chips the same, despite changes in supply voltage.

Quote
>The dimming function of that is dependant on the mains frequency being near 50Hz, 60Hz or whatever the circuit is designed for and changing the frequency will mess it up.
 :palm: well then dont change it. remember? - I did leave 50Hz option in my offer.

Good and better made it a pure sine wave, which is a more complicated inverter design, just to be sure it works.

i respect that new information ... i stated  by observation of the light in the room not just bulb on table.
Today 2 channel test success with 5Watt and 4watt .the 5watt leds had flicker,todays test used TRIAC. It is maintaining good brightness.
may be 3-4channel mux will be ok.

all inverters i have given to poor

i will get parts and test 1bulb inverter to drive 2 bulbs.technically it must work because  230V test is promishing .
Just frequency is in khz range .
Please post some schematics of what you've already done.

Have you tried it with a variety of different LED lamps? Is there a risk the user might do something silly like replace the LED lamp with an incandescent or compact fluorescent?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 12:22:10 am by Hero999 »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2017, 01:02:38 am »
>1) I am not original poster
No but you can read what they've written.
I did. On the other hand, you did not read what I wrote.

Quote
The original poster mentioned using a higher frequency, than 50Hz mains first.
How many times I shall remind you that you opposed me, not original poster?

Quote
It's impossible to know what they'll do when you change the input frequency/duty cycle, without lots of prior testing or reverse engineering. What's worse is that with a standard fitting, someone could easilly change the lamp to an incompatible one, which could blow up.
If everything is designed correctly - nothing will blow up.

Quote
No, I modelled the typical input stage of an LED lamp and explained why it can overheat if you try to dim it by PWMing the input voltage.
Well... as I indicated - you did it wrong.

Quote
I know and even said previously that it will work off DC, but what's the point when with 100% duty cycle
DC is starting, "calibration point" - for you to correct your LTspice LED bulb simulation. After you tune design to work correctly off DC, you will see that it will not tend to blow up when PWM'ed to lower than 100% duty. Proper dimmable square wave inverter will not blow up LED bulbs faster than triac dimmers. This is what I am telling you all the time  8)

Quote
Varying the supply voltage (whether AC or DC) will not change the brightness.
You are kidding me or what? Please re-read it carefully: "tune peak voltage so LEDs dissipate identical power compared to AC sinewave design and only then check power dissipation in the inrush limiter resistor".

Quote
Good and better made it a pure sine wave, which is a more complicated inverter design, just to be sure it works.
Actually I believe that original poster have better option: instead of designing, manufacturing and selling inverter & fancy 4-led sequenced to end-customers, better just sell them 12V LED bulbs  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 09:02:17 am by ogden »
 

Offline Damianos

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2017, 01:36:38 am »
Of course it will do!
You can also expand it. At each output from the switcher, connect another switcher ... and, continuing this, you can have unlimited power/energy to lighten up the entire planet.
But not only this. If you start combining the outputs after a few billions of switchers, there will be plenty of power for trains, factories, homes, etc.
Still, if from some of the outputs re-feed the input, you can save and battery ... After start-up, you can remove it and your invaluable inverter!
Watch out! There will be many who will try to steal your designs ... ...

 ::) will see ...

 for your information i have a DC led tube , i added PWM and reached 12hours light ... originally it was giving 3-4hour
 dont bring physics if you dont know pulsed and switched led lighting saves lot energy .

 however i  have less test knowledge on AC so asked experts
[... even if you have mixed up the quotes and you are answering to yourself!]
Oh! I know a lot of things, but I keep some secrets!

The nature was born before the LEDs and switchers, so does not know about them!
Also, I know that half of the power on LED lights hidden somewhere and waiting for an enlightened to reveal it!

I work on a similar project but much more advanced. As you know LEDs are also light detectors, they generate voltage and current when light hits them. Using a suitable mirror and switching them fast, they produce energy from their own light! The only unsolved problem is synchronization of switching with the time that the light beam needs to travel up to the mirror and return back. As I don't know enough about pulse and switching circuits, I use a pushing switch manually. I need some help to slow the switch contacts, as they are faster than light ... ...
 

Offline dave_j_fanTopic starter

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2017, 03:11:55 am »
apart from law of physics  and ranting why it wont work.Why not  some members try it..$5 in parts wont hurt
i am not saying physics is bypassed but telling non conventional ways to light leds.The work by lidmotor in energetic forums
show that with less watt also you can get same brightness.Experiment ,change,try.

mcu> 4017>triac

circuit is as simple as that
- -----
for people fighting on "what will work" why not come with own test jig post real reading of ac power 

while running battery drain tests in my inverters i checked some random things and found adding 100uH inductor in series on ac side  , or 1uf 400v cap in series
the battery drain is reduced.Be practical you will discover some secrets
--
is the objective is to save power ?
Not exactly but if we can good . First target is to reduce loading of the inverter.
25W inverter if it can run 50w leds ....we save lot on per inverter cost .common people benifitted with  econmical inverters
getfull house lights for too lowspending .
They need small battery that further reduces cost .
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 03:16:37 am by dave_j_fan »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2017, 09:11:09 am »
while running battery drain tests in my inverters i checked some random things and found adding 100uH inductor in series on ac side  , or 1uf 400v cap in series
the battery drain is reduced.Be practical you will discover some secrets

Did you wear tinfoil hat while discovered those secrets? BTW you can reduce battery drain even further by switching your inverters off. Such experiments that just measure consumed power without measuring resulting light output are useless.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2017, 01:59:43 pm »
>1) I am not original poster
No but you can read what they've written.
I did. On the other hand, you did not read what I wrote.
Yes, it did. It was wrong and someone else, as well as myself, corrected it.

Quote
Quote
The original poster mentioned using a higher frequency, than 50Hz mains first.
How many times I shall remind you that you opposed me, not original poster?
We did inform the original poster that this could be an issue and don't take things so personally: if you post something which is incorrect, people will correct you.

Quote
Quote
It's impossible to know what they'll do when you change the input frequency/duty cycle, without lots of prior testing or reverse engineering. What's worse is that with a standard fitting, someone could easilly change the lamp to an incompatible one, which could blow up.
If everything is designed correctly - nothing will blow up.
And operating an unknown LED lamp from a PWM square wave is bad design, so there's a risk it will blow up. Even if you manage to optimise the design for a particular brand/design of LED lamp, it's in a standard fitting, so there's a risk someone might change the bulb for an incompatible one, which will blow up.

Quote
Quote
No, I modelled the typical input stage of an LED lamp and explained why it can overheat if you try to dim it by PWMing the input voltage.
Well... as I indicated - you did it wrong.
How is it wrong? If I made any errors, please point them out and correct them. Bear in mind there are lots of different LED lamp designs. .  .

Here's another mains powered LED lamp design. This time I've posted the full schematic. It's worse because it has no inrush limiter. C1 and D1 to D4 may be able to handle the occasional inrush, but PWM this and it will be destroyed.


https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Proxy-AC-LED-Driver-IC-FT838RNA_1624190417.html

Quote
Quote
I know and even said previously that it will work off DC, but what's the point when with 100% duty cycle
DC is starting, "calibration point" - for you to correct your LTspice LED bulb simulation. After you tune design to work correctly off DC, you will see that it will not tend to blow up when PWM'ed to lower than 100% duty. Proper dimmable square wave inverter will not blow up LED bulbs faster than triac dimmers. This is what I am telling you all the time  8)
No, there is a risk it will blow up. Suppose the circuit can safely run off 230VDC safely, without any problems, it does not mean that it can run off 230V with 50% PWM safely. Every time the power is applied, a large current flows through the surge suppression resistor to charge the capacitor. The bulb will only be designed to be turned on occasionally, not turned on and off, from an abrupt square wave hundreds of times per second.

PWM is only good for controlling the power delivered to linear loads such as resistors and motors. It is no good for non-linear loads, such as switched mode power supplies, which are often found in modern LED lamps. Just because you can PWM an LED + series resistor, it doesn't mean you can PWM a mains LED lamp.

Quote
Quote
Varying the supply voltage (whether AC or DC) will not change the brightness.
You are kidding me or what? Please re-read it carefully: "tune peak voltage so LEDs dissipate identical power compared to AC sinewave design and only then check power dissipation in the inrush limiter resistor".
And how are you going to check the power dissipation in the inrush limiter, inside the LED bulb, without dismantling it? Bear in mind that it's difficult/impossible to open some LED bulbs, without damaging them in the process  and as mentioned above, the bulb is in a standard fitting, so the user might replace it with another one which won't work the same way.

Quote
Quote
Good and better made it a pure sine wave, which is a more complicated inverter design, just to be sure it works.
Actually I believe that original poster have better option: instead of designing, manufacturing and selling inverter & fancy 4-led sequenced to end-customers, better just sell them 12V LED bulbs  :popcorn:
I agree. He's been told that plenty of times.

apart from law of physics  and ranting why it wont work.Why not  some members try it..$5 in parts wont hurt
i am not saying physics is bypassed but telling non conventional ways to light leds.The work by lidmotor in energetic forums
show that with less watt also you can get same brightness.Experiment ,change,try.

mcu> 4017>triac

circuit is as simple as that
- -----
for people fighting on "what will work" why not come with own test jig post real reading of ac power 

while running battery drain tests in my inverters i checked some random things and found adding 100uH inductor in series on ac side  , or 1uf 400v cap in series
the battery drain is reduced.Be practical you will discover some secrets
--
is the objective is to save power ?
Not exactly but if we can good . First target is to reduce loading of the inverter.
25W inverter if it can run 50w leds ....we save lot on per inverter cost .common people benifitted with  econmical inverters
getfull house lights for too lowspending .
They need small battery that further reduces cost .
You'll get a more positive response if you actually posted schematics showing what you're doing.

If you really are intent on saving the planet, rather than making money, then you shouldn't keep anything secret. Spread the information, so others can join your quest to save the planet.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 03:52:47 pm by Hero999 »
 

Offline dave_j_fanTopic starter

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2017, 05:22:48 pm »



Quote
Did you wear tinfoil hat while discovered those secrets? BTW you can reduce battery drain even further by switching your inverters off. Such experiments that just measure consumed power without measuring resulting light output are useless.
no one should come here  after few shots of https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8d/e1/cf/8de1cf0f2067f77759f1023c75d48e38--whisky-jack-jack-daniels-single-barrel.jpg

Hero999,


Here I am donating the billion dollars ..!  :P
Code: [Select]
/*
 * Simple LED sequencer  using a 4017 counter.
 * The 4017 is used to save pins on the arduino.
 *
 * Developed by daveJ Fan
 *
 */
 
/* PIN used to send clock pulses to the counter. */
int clockPin = 2;
 
void setup() {
  pinMode(clockPin,OUTPUT);
}
 
/*
 * Sends a clock pulse to the counter making it advance.
 */
void clock() {
  digitalWrite(clockPin,HIGH);
  delay(1);
  digitalWrite(clockPin,LOW);
}
 
void loop() {
  /* Send a clock pulse to the counter. It makes the counter advance
     causing the current LED to be turned off, and the next one to be
     turned ON */
  clock();
  /* Wait for 30 ms. */
  delay(30);
}
well code is copied and at the output  LEDS there is a opto-TRIAC

Its too easy  .
Even simple 555 will work with this ..


Quote
If you really are intent on saving the planet, rather than making money, then you shouldn't keep anything secret. Spread the information, so others can join your quest to save the planet.
you have motivated me  8) to do the right thing  :-+
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 05:31:01 pm by dave_j_fan »
 

Online Zero999

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2017, 05:28:47 pm »
I take it the IC on the right hand side is the CD4017?

Why not just use the Arduinio? There's no need for the CD4017.
 

Offline dave_j_fanTopic starter

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #66 on: November 12, 2017, 05:38:00 pm »
arduino will be retired   ^-^ to cut cost , adding bjt /555 later

yes , IC on right is 4017
 

Offline dave_j_fanTopic starter

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2017, 05:47:32 pm »
for people with interest the   johnny aum night light. is an example of getting very nice light with 51Milliwatts power, driven LED is 2.8watts  ! Point is there are many possibilities

http://www.energeticforum.com/296163-post38.html?s=03f790b602cb7fbdb175e0416c3a83d4
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2017, 06:02:30 pm »
And operating an unknown LED lamp from a PWM square wave is bad design, so there's a risk it will blow up.
Keywords here are dimmable LED bulb and LED bulb that tolerates triac dimmers. Please read below.

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How is it wrong? If I made any errors, please point them out and correct them.
Error 1) You compared dissipation of each inrush limiter resistor without showing dissipation in each "LED equivalent" made out of current sink. For fair comparison they must be equal. So basically useless comparison.
Error 2) You compared 100% duty cycle (undimmed) AC mains to 50% duty cycle square wave. Again useless comparison.

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Bear in mind there are lots of different LED lamp designs. .  .
Right. Those which will fail from leading-edge mode triac dimmer input most likely will fail from square wave too. - As I said already multiple times that "Proper dimmable square wave inverter will not blow up LED bulbs faster than triac dimmers."

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Here's another mains powered LED lamp design. This time I've posted the full schematic.
Well, thank you. For balance I will share one much more interesting - from engineering point of view.

https://www.fairchildsemi.com/product-technology/direct-ac-drive/

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No, there is a risk it will blow up. Suppose the circuit can safely run off 230VDC safely, without any problems, it does not mean that it can run off 230V with 50% PWM safely. Every time the power is applied, a large current flows through the surge suppression resistor to charge the capacitor. The bulb will only be designed to be turned on occasionally, not turned on and off, from an abrupt square wave hundreds of times per second.

When dimmed from leading edge mode triac, sharp pulse up-to full Peak-Peak voltage of AC mains each half-cycle will be applied to it while at particular dimmer setting:



Further reading:
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

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PWM is only good for controlling the power delivered to linear loads such as resistors and motors. It is no good for non-linear loads, such as switched mode power supplies, which are often found in modern LED lamps.
That one particular LED bulb controller you gave datasheet for, does support triac dimmers, both leading and traling edge. Hows that?

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You are kidding me or what? Please re-read it carefully: "tune peak voltage so LEDs dissipate identical power compared to AC sinewave design and only then check power dissipation in the inrush limiter resistor".
And how are you going to check the power dissipation in the inrush limiter, inside the LED bulb, without dismantling it?
Crlt+click on waveform  :-DD
Yes, I did talk about your LTspice simulation, not LED physical bulb.

 

Online Zero999

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2017, 07:01:11 pm »
And operating an unknown LED lamp from a PWM square wave is bad design, so there's a risk it will blow up.
Keywords here are dimmable LED bulb and LED bulb that tolerates triac dimmers. Please read below.
That's all fine, until the user replaces it with a non-dimmable lamp.

Quote
Quote
How is it wrong? If I made any errors, please point them out and correct them.
Error 1) You compared dissipation of each inrush limiter resistor without showing dissipation in each "LED equivalent" made out of current sink. For fair comparison they must be equal. So basically useless comparison.
Error 2) You compared 100% duty cycle (undimmed) AC mains to 50% duty cycle square wave. Again useless comparison.
What do you mean by LED equivalent? The power rating of one of the components is exceeding its rating by a factor of 5, when run on a 50% duty square wave vs the sine wave it was designed for!

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Quote
Bear in mind there are lots of different LED lamp designs. .  .
Right. Those which will fail from leading-edge mode triac dimmer input most likely will fail from square wave too.
I agree so perhaps my simulation, wasn't so incorrect after all. It demonstrates why a non-dimmable LED will fail, when operated from PWM.

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- As I said already multiple times that "Proper dimmable square wave inverter will not blow up LED bulbs faster than triac dimmers."
Quote
Here's another mains powered LED lamp design. This time I've posted the full schematic.
Well, thank you. For balance I will share one much more interesting - from engineering point of view.

https://www.fairchildsemi.com/product-technology/direct-ac-drive/

Quote
No, there is a risk it will blow up. Suppose the circuit can safely run off 230VDC safely, without any problems, it does not mean that it can run off 230V with 50% PWM safely. Every time the power is applied, a large current flows through the surge suppression resistor to charge the capacitor. The bulb will only be designed to be turned on occasionally, not turned on and off, from an abrupt square wave hundreds of times per second.

When dimmed from leading edge mode triac, sharp pulse up-to full Peak-Peak voltage of AC mains each half-cycle will be applied to it while at particular dimmer setting:



Further reading:
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

Quote
PWM is only good for controlling the power delivered to linear loads such as resistors and motors. It is no good for non-linear loads, such as switched mode power supplies, which are often found in modern LED lamps.
That one particular LED bulb controller you gave datasheet for, does support triac dimmers, both leading and traling edge. Hows that?
It supports TRIAC dimmers, not PWM! They are not the same thing!

Ok it might not blow up but flicker, when run off the wrong frequency square wave, rather than a sine wave. Still not good.

Why not simply use a 50 or 60Hz sine wave inverter and a proper dimmer circuit for a dimmable LED lamp, rather than risking failure with a square wave, at the wrong frequency? That's a much better solution. Use components, as they're designed to be used, within their specifications. Attempting otherwise, only leads to trouble, further down the road.

By the way, thank you for posting the second link. It might help to explain to the original poster, why his LEDs aren't getting any dimmer.

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Quote
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You are kidding me or what? Please re-read it carefully: "tune peak voltage so LEDs dissipate identical power compared to AC sinewave design and only then check power dissipation in the inrush limiter resistor".
And how are you going to check the power dissipation in the inrush limiter, inside the LED bulb, without dismantling it?
Crlt+click on waveform  :-DD
Yes, I did talk about your LTspice simulation, not LED physical bulb.
What do you mean by?
Quote
Please re-read it carefully: "tune peak voltage so LEDs dissipate identical power compared to AC sinewave design and only then check power dissipation in the inrush limiter resistor".
I re-read it several times and it makes no sense!

The LTSpice simulation was an approximation of an LED driver circuit, run off a bridge rectifier and capacitor. The LED is modelled as a current source, but in reality, it will be a constant power circuit, i.e. a switched mode power supply. The input current will increase, as the voltage on the capacitor falls  (down to a certain point of course) which should theoretically, increase the power dissipation on the surge limiting resistor, as the supply voltage is reduced. The end result will be the same: PWMing it will cause no dimming and premature failure.

arduino will be retired   ^-^ to cut cost , adding bjt /555 later

yes , IC on right is 4017

Another option is a ring oscillator. I designed a PCB for one awhile ago, as a learning exercise.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/my-latest-eagle-pcb/msg10497/#msg10497

By the way, no that would not make mains LEDs use less energy, but keep the brightness the same. They will either get dimmer, or the controller IC inside the mains LED lamp, will increase the current draw, to keep the brightness constant. If the latter happens, there's more risk of premature failure of the LEDs or inverter, used to drive them. You need to invest in a power meter. One which will work with a square wave and at different frequencies than the standard 50 or 60Hz mains. Measuring the voltage and current simultaneously and applying Ohm's law doesn't give you the true power, although it will give you a good idea of whether the inverter's output current rating is not being exceeded.

I have a non-dimmable mains LED lamp. I've tried using it with a phase controlled dimmer. The brightness stays constant, until the dimmer setting is reduced past a certain point, then it starts flickering and stops working. I have not measured the power consumption with the dimmer, but I'm pretty sure that it's not using less power, with the dimmer, than without it. I didn't test it for long, because it's likely it would have damaged the dimmer.

for people with interest the   johnny aum night light. is an example of getting very nice light with 51Milliwatts power, driven LED is 2.8watts  ! Point is there are many possibilities

http://www.energeticforum.com/296163-post38.html?s=03f790b602cb7fbdb175e0416c3a83d4
That looks like a Joule thief. A very old circuit. It's totally different to what you're doing, because the LED's driver has been removed, so it's powering a bare LED. That circuit doesn't magic 2.759W from nowhere! The 2.8W bulb is clearly running at a fraction of its rating brightness, because the current through it is much lower than the rating. It's true that driving an LED, at a lower current, than its maximum rating increases the efficiency, up to a certain point, but it works out very expensive to buy LEDs rated for much more power, than they'll be driven with, so LED manufacturers won't do it. How many people would by a 1W LED which costs nearly as much as a 10W LED?
 

Offline dave_j_fanTopic starter

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2017, 07:40:08 pm »
Quote
Another option is a ring oscillator. I designed a PCB for one awhile ago, as a learning exercise.

superb option , how to make it a variable freq one  , adding 10K Vr in feedback ?

Quote
That looks like a Joule thief. A very old circuit. It's totally different to what you're doing, because the LED's driver has been removed, so it's powering a bare LED. That circuit doesn't magic 2.759W from nowhere! The 2.8W bulb is clearly running at a fraction of its rating brightness, because the current through it is much lower than the rating. It's true that driving an LED, at a lower current, than its maximum rating increases the efficiency, up to a certain point, but it works out very expensive to buy LEDs rated for much more power, than they'll be driven with, so LED manufacturers won't do it. How many people would by a 1W LED which costs nearly as much as a 10W LED?

I know abt JT and made 5 types some time back , but the circuit is not a exact JT  as there is no twocoils with 3 pint connection than itz a series connected coil type .
What is interesting is 51milliwatts !! for 75% 'usable light'  ,this gives me idea of pushing the 9W for all room light  with this type circuit. This type of boosters will run well in shops and 1student room alikes .
 
 

Online Zero999

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2017, 08:14:56 pm »
Quote
Another option is a ring oscillator. I designed a PCB for one awhile ago, as a learning exercise.

superb option , how to make it a variable freq one  , adding 10K Vr in feedback ?
The values of all of the 10k resistors need to be varied, which is probably not practical.

Quote
Quote
That looks like a Joule thief. A very old circuit. It's totally different to what you're doing, because the LED's driver has been removed, so it's powering a bare LED. That circuit doesn't magic 2.759W from nowhere! The 2.8W bulb is clearly running at a fraction of its rating brightness, because the current through it is much lower than the rating. It's true that driving an LED, at a lower current, than its maximum rating increases the efficiency, up to a certain point, but it works out very expensive to buy LEDs rated for much more power, than they'll be driven with, so LED manufacturers won't do it. How many people would by a 1W LED which costs nearly as much as a 10W LED?

I know abt JT and made 5 types some time back , but the circuit is not a exact JT  as there is no twocoils with 3 pint connection than itz a series connected coil type .
There are several different variants of the classic Joule thief circuit. In this case, because both of the coils are connected in series and are magnetically coupled, they behave like one coil.

Quote
What is interesting is 51milliwatts !! for 75% 'usable light'  ,this gives me idea of pushing the 9W for all room light  with this type circuit. This type of boosters will run well in shops and 1student room alikes .
Don't let the picture fool you. It isn't using 51mW to produce 75% of the light of a 2.8W lamp. It's an illusion.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2017, 09:39:16 pm »
The power rating of one of the components is exceeding its rating by a factor of 5, when run on a 50% duty square wave vs the sine wave it was designed for!

Checked your LTspice design and agree - "dimmer incompatible" LED bulb which is based on constant current IC, most likely will fail due to overheat.

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It supports TRIAC dimmers, not PWM! They are not the same thing!

They are indeed. PWM synced to AC mains phase and frequency can do same thing as triac dimmers do. PWM does not relate only to DC chopping. You can do PWM on any waveform you want.

If you feed dimmer-compatible LED bulb IC with 50Hz(!) square wave - it will sync to it. When you PWM-chop 50Hz bipolar square wave coming out of push-pull or full-bridge inverter, then dimmer-capable LED bulb IC will happily detect dimming. Am I missing something here?
 

Online Zero999

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2017, 10:13:39 pm »
The power rating of one of the components is exceeding its rating by a factor of 5, when run on a 50% duty square wave vs the sine wave it was designed for!

Checked your LTspice design and agree - "dimmer incompatible" LED bulb which is based on constant current IC, most likely will fail due to overheat.

Quote
It supports TRIAC dimmers, not PWM! They are not the same thing!

They are indeed. PWM synced to AC mains phase and frequency can do same thing as triac dimmers do. PWM does not relate only to DC chopping. You can do PWM on any waveform you want.

If you feed dimmer-compatible LED bulb IC with 50Hz(!) square wave - it will sync to it. When you PWM-chop 50Hz bipolar square wave coming out of push-pull or full-bridge inverter, then dimmer-capable LED bulb IC will happily detect dimming. Am I missing something here?
PWM has a similar effect to phase control but it is not the same thing. PWM isn't normally used in AC circuits, because it's much easier to use phase control and when it is used, it's usually referred to as burst or full-wave duty-cycle control. The PWM is synchronised to a much lower frequency than the mains, causing it to get chopped up into blocks of full cycles, followed by off periods. The ratio of full mains cycles, to off periods is the duty cycle.

It looks like this:


Obviously this is no good for lighting, because it will flicker, unless the AC frequency is very high, so it's used for heating. The main advantage over phase control is, switching only ever occurs at the zero crossing time, there is no abrupt switch on/off of current, so it's less noisy.

If the sine wave is PWMed at a much higher than its fundamental frequency then it will be chopped up into tiny pieces and look like the right of the image below. On the left shows phase control, which many people confuse with PWM.

http://www.edgefxkits.com/ac-pwm-control-for-induction-motor
I imagine it's very noisy, which is why I've not seen it in real life, only on forums.

As far as powering a dimmable LED lamp, which is designed for use on 230V 50Hz AC, from PWM DC is concerned: it may, or may not work. To stand the highest chance of success, use 100Hz or 120Hz, rather than 50Hz, because that's what the LED driver IC will see on the DC side of the rectifier.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 10watts for all 4, will it work
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2017, 10:32:34 pm »
PWM has a similar effect to phase control but it is not the same thing.

Indeed dimming is right word for AC mains phase control but principles to PWM is the same - as I already explained. So to say "Dimming is not PWM. Period." is not quite correct as well.  :popcorn:

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PWM isn't normally used in AC circuits

It is. Modern PFC uses hi-freq PWM for AC mains power factor correction. Waveform looks like you are showing "the real PWM control of AC".

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To stand the highest chance of success, use 100Hz or 120Hz, rather than 50Hz, because that's what the LED driver IC will see on the DC side of the rectifier.

You (again) ignored what I say. Reminder in bold: 50Hz bipolar square wave coming out of push-pull or full-bridge inverter after rectification will look like pulsing 100Hz.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 10:34:12 pm by ogden »
 


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