About to buy Tektronix 475.First oscilloscope so need price advice!

[Zbig]

belzrebuth, you've said you like CRTs and don't like LCDs while admitting you've never really used a scope of any kind before. Are you sure that your preference for analog scope isn't a result of some hipstery desire of using something "vintage"? Bear in mind that many of the guys here reinforcing your decision to get an old analogue scope probably have long experience in the field and analog was the only thing available throughout most part of their careers. That's the way they were doing things and they will come up with all sorts of justifications why analog is the way to go. That's life, that's how many people's minds work. In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason for starting with analog in this day and age. Would you buy a CRT TV now? Sure, if you're lucky to get an analogue scope that actually works and will meet 90% of your needs for debugging synthesizers, there will be a moment when you'll need to diagnose an intermittent, one-off timing issue that happens only on power up. Then, the novelty of feeling like an "electronics wizard" long worn off, you'll find yourself sitting in front of your old, crusty, heavy piece of antiquated garbage taking half of your workspace, feeling like a fool. I like steampunk as much as the next guy but do yourself a favor and save for a proper modern (EDIT: digital) scope from current century. If it's hard for you to justify the higher upfront cost, think of it as buying not one but two instruments in one (taking 1/10th the space, weighing 1/10th of the analogue one, etc.). Yes, as Dave already pointed it out for you, the ability to catch one-off events does make a world's difference.

[David Hess]

Bear in mind that many of the guys here reinforcing your decision to get an old analogue scope probably have long experience in the field and analog was the only thing available throughout most part of their careers. That's the way they were doing things and they will come up with all sorts of justifications why analog is the way to go.

My justifications for using a Tektronix 2230/2232 instead of something more modern come down to:

- Higher CRT resolution even in DSO mode than most modern DSOs.
- Documented and understandable operation making surprises rare.
- Good user interface.
- Cheaper by an order of magnitude than an acceptable modern DSO.

But I would never buy an old or new DSO which does not support peak detection which immediately disqualifies a lot of currently made inexpensive DSOs.  I would also never buy a DSO which does measurement processing on the display record which disqualifies the Rigol 1000Z series and I assume most of their other DSOs; that is just cheap engineering and it shows in the other problems their DSOs have.  Other uses may find these problems acceptable but since I have old DSOs which do not suffer from them, I do not.

In my opinion, there is absolutely no reason for starting with analog in this day and age. Would you buy a CRT TV now? Sure, if you're lucky to get an analogue scope that actually works and will meet 90% of your needs for debugging synthesizers, there will be a moment when you'll need to diagnose an intermittent, one-off timing issue that happens only on power up.

The coat has to be cut to fit the cloth.  At least here in the US, good used analog oscilloscopes can be found for $100 or less so if it is a choice of buying something for 1/10th the price now which will do 90% of what is needed, that may be worthwhile.  Overseas this decision is more difficult because good used analog oscilloscopes are less common and more expensive.

[oldway]

I really don't know what advantage has the 2230/2232 over the 2235?

It is far more complicated with an big digital board added without any true vantage for a beginner.

I had a 2230 when I worked as maintenance engineer in high power UPS and it was usefull to measure transfer time between inverter and mains when we shut down the inverter.

We buy an HAMEG 1507 (combiscope) to do the same but it was a desaster. Every time we make a transfer, the oscilloscope stopped responding without any control anymore.

I worked also in the biggest european manufacture of SMPS.
We had a lot of Philips/Fluke combiscopes.
I made an inquiry with my colleagues : virtually all of them never use the combiscope in digital mode.

I wonder what the digital fonction of 2230 you use for ?

In repair, analog and power electronics, I really never need this.

[belzrebuth]

belzrebuth, you've said you like CRTs and don't like LCDs while admitting you've never really used a scope of any kind before. Are you sure that your preference for analog scope isn't a result of some hipstery desire of using something "vintage"?

I don't have such a hipstery desire but I like the CRT traces ;their resolution seem crisper than the cheaper DSOs and their screens are very bright and nicer than the plain boring lcds you look everywhere.
Call me a hipster if you like for wanting to use stuff that also look good to me but that's just the way I see it.

Also the price is a valid reason too.

For example when I started soldering stuff I got an plain weller soldering iron that plugs into the mains.
I didn't get a brand new digital station or a "vintage" analog station from ebay.
Just a quality plain soldering iron to learn with.
Three or four years later I just got a low end fx-888d although I'd prefer a fx-888 without the digital up and down buttons but I wouldn't get a vintage weller station or similar.
I'm ok with modern functionality but I also like the hands-on control and lower prices of the analog scopes.

A lot of people are into analog stuff for this reason (hands-on control,simpler operation/less features== easier to grasp,almost one knob per function etc.)

[Zbig]

I believe I still have this baby: https://www.google.pl/search?q=unitra+os-352&source=lnms&tbm=isch at my parents'. Would part with it for just the price of shipping. Interested?

[oldway]

I believe I still have this baby: https://www.google.pl/search?q=unitra+os-352&source=lnms&tbm=isch at my parents'. Would part with it for just the price of shipping. Interested?

  Now I understand why you don't like analog oscilloscopes.....

Try one of those and you will change your mind....

[Zbig]

Now I understand why you don't like analog oscilloscopes.....

Try one of those and you will change your mind....

Nope... But it's a nice musesum display you've got youself there. You just might want to prop up the shelf with something if you're going to keep them coming Anyway, as the original poster seems to have his mind set, I'll just grab some and come back to enjoy next episodes:

• scratchy potentiometers
• dodgy rotary selectors
• stuck switches
• rodent infestations

But first, I'll hop into my horseless carriage and take the journey home.

[newbrain]

I believe I still have this baby: https://www.google.pl/search?q=unitra+os-352&source=lnms&tbm=isch at my parents'. Would part with it for just the price of shipping. Interested?

I think my old scope trumps yours
At my parents, still working, still ~30kg for ~30kHz. My Rigol should weigh 100tons.

[Zbig]

I think my old scope trumps yours
At my parents, still working, still ~30kg for ~30kHz. My Rigol should weigh 100tons.

30kHz you say? So you shouldn't ever need anything better for your audio work!

[oldway]

   

• scratchy potentiometers

easy fix: rotate it several times

• dodgy rotary selectors

not in high quality scopes as HP, Tektronix, Philips and Hameg

• stuck switches

If you use your scope correctly, it is very hard to happen. The only stuk switches I have see were broken during transport

• rodent infestations

What this have to see with oscilloscopes ?

A good contact cleaner spray cost less than 10€.
With digital scopes, you have more serious problems as faulty encoders (very fragile), faulty touch buttons (very common)....

[JacquesBBB]

@ belzrebuth

If you are looking for a 20 Mhz  analog scope, you may possibly get it for free.
Try asking some university lab if there are some in your area.

I recover several of these in the trash, which I could bring back to life with moderate effort.

Some good options are the Fluke/Philips PM3209, PM3335 series. Fairly well documented, with a big
advantage over many other old or modern scopes :

- They do not have fan. So you are in total silence.
(and much less massive than a Tek 475  (I have a Tek 468   which is similar but its a monster compared to
a  PM3335 or to the Rigol 1054Z that I use most often)).

Other good options  as was said is the Hamegs 203 or similar.

Just wait for a good opportunity (but be active to make it happen) and maybe you will get one for free.

[chris_leyson]

I've owned a 465 and two 475s over the years and to be brutally honest I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole given their age, probably around 30 years old now. Switches, pots tiny spring contatcts on PCBs, semiconductors, I've had issues with all of them. They can be difficult to repair even with a service manual and then you might need a donor scope just for spares. If you really need an old analog scope look out for a 50MHz or 100MHz scope maybe Hameg or IsoTech, pretty sure you can pick these up for 50€ or so.

[newbrain]

30kHz you say? So you shouldn't ever need anything better for your audio work!

Well, my younger self used it quite a lot for audio.
The best use was for my Electronics 1 test at the university.
Sorry for the OT...
I was sure I had made a perfect test, and once home I had actually built the circuit in the test assignment.
When I went to check the date of the oral test and the written test results I was shocked: 10 out 30.
I then took pictures of the scope and the circuit (a simple CC generator charging a capacitor!) with my smartphone film camera, had them developed and brought them at the oral test.
It was quite a struggle (the professor would not admit in public he was dead wrong), but the evidence was out of question.
My fault? I had added also the calculations and extended the graph to include the behaviour when the transistor in the CC source saturated (i.e. no longer CC).
In the end he gave up and stated many of the tests had to be re-evaluated.

My final result? 25/30...He said "OK, you know electronics, so let's start with Schrödinger's equations"

[belzrebuth]

Sadly public universities in my country usually give their old/broken equipment to recycling companies.

Sometime ago I needed a bunch of floppy drives for something I was working on so I went to my university and asked if they happen to have any in storage.
A friendly guy working there told me to follow him and searched in the storage room while I was outside waiting.
I asked if I could come inside and help him but he didn't let me to go in and search myself.
He grabbed a couple of drives and gave them to me.

I peaked inside this room and he probably had a closet full of drives including ribbons etc so I asked if I could have some more floppies since they're super obsolete and pretty useless for almost anyone these days.

He said I couldn't and  that he's already doing me a favor cause they give these things away to other companies (recycling).

It's state property since it's a public university so they can't just sell or give away stuff.

So if they have such policy for even a bunch of useless floppy drives imagine me going there asking if they happen to have a spare Tek scope..

I should probably try my luck in other universities too..

[David Hess]

I really don't know what advantage has the 2230/2232 over the 2235?

It is far more complicated with an big digital board added without any true vantage for a beginner.

Do you mean other that selectable digital storage with pretrigger capability?  People here often point out how useful these features are and their lack in an analog oscilloscope.

I was using these CRT DSOs as an example of why CRT displays can look as good if not better than LCD displays.  I would not necessarily recommend a 2230/2232 to a beginner because of their increased cost and complexity but with the exception of the 2210/2211, they are the oldest DSOs that I would recommend to anybody.

I wonder what the digital function of 2230 you use for?

In repair, analog and power electronics, I really never need this.

I use it for the typical applications which would require a digital storage oscilloscope like capturing single shot or low repetition rate signals or where a pretrigger is needed.  Another very handy feature is the reference memories which allow comparisons with previous waveforms.  Glitch detection in digital mode highlights pulses which may otherwise be difficult to find in analog mode.  Cursors allow accurate on screen measurements.  The readout in analog and digital mode helps with documentation.

A modern cheap DSO will do most of these things as well but at several times the cost so there is little reason for me to upgrade.

[oldway]

Capturing single shot or low repetition rate signals is something you really don't need often.

Most of signals are repetitive (periodics) and they are perfectly captured by an analog oscilloscope.

Of course, when you have the same level of expertise as Dave and you make a debugging of data signals to hack a R§S dso (see  EEVblog #879 - R&S 1202 Scope Bandwidth Hack Investigation ), you need the single shot, storage and pretrigger options of a DSO

But we are speaking about an oscilloscope for a beginner.

Some exemples where DSO is not absolutely needed:
- to measure overshoot on power-on of a power supply: no need of an oscilloscope, use your multimeter in peak max capture.
- to measure dynamic behaviour of a power supply: you may use a low frequency repetitive rate and the pattern is readable with an analog scope.
To measure peaks, use the X/Y function with no X input signal.
- PID regulator caracteristics: same as above.
- filter caracteristics using sweep generator: same as above.

When X/Y function is needed , analog oscilloscope is better than DSO.

The reference memories which allow comparisons with previous waveforms is usefull when you work on the production line of a manufacture, but for sure, is useless for a beginner.

Glitch detection is also possible without DSO mode.
For exemple, Hameg oscilloscopes have a very fast overscan detection who let you detect glitches even you don't see.

Cursors allow accurate on screen measurements, I agree, but what accuracy do you really need for such measurements ?

There are pure analog oscilloscope who have also cursors.

Readout is not necessary and even can be switched off because it can interfere with display of the signal.

EDIT: about pretrigger, all modern analog oscilloscope has a kind of pretrigger:  a delay line that serves to visualize the leading edge of the wave.