Arduino Nano vs Mini Pro

[nbritton]

I want to pickup some extra spare arudinos to use in dedicated projects. On Aliexpress, I can pickup 10 nano clones for $21 or 10 mini pro clones for $16.90, which ones should I get?

Mini Pro: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-1pcs-lot-ATMEGA328P-Pro-Mini-328-Mini-ATMEGA328-5V-16MHz-for-Arduino/32340811597.html
Nano: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Freeshipping-Nano-3-0-controller-compatible-for-arduino-nano-CH340-USB-driver-NO-CABLE/32341832857.html
Uno: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1PCS-Tower-Pro-9g-micro-servo-for-airplane-aeroplane-6CH-rc-helcopter-kds-esky-align-helicopter/32340815424.html

Even the UNO clone is only $2.74, how come I can't find a bare Atmel ATmega328P chips for as cheap as these assembled boards on aliexpress?

[crispy_tofu]

The Atmel site lists the TQFP ATmega328P chips as USD 1.79 (in 1000s), so they're nearly definitely using fakes 

But what I really want to know is what this means:

[LukeW]

#1 has no on-board USB connectivity, so you need to provide your own FTDI cable or similar serial device. http://www.freetronics.com.au/products/usb-serial-adapter#.VjWmHt94vTE

#2 has USB on board, but you'll need to provide a mini-USB cable yourself. (And these days that's probably the least common of the USB connector standards.)

#3 is a full-size Arduino-equivalent form factor, which may be a disadvantage (or an advantage) for you depending on what you actually want.

Both #2 and #3 will almost certainly use something like a CH340 cheap Chinese USB virtual UART, so you'll need to set up appropriate drivers for that on your PC, and easy "plug and play" use may not be something you can take for granted. You may be OK but it depends on your OS.

As far as AliExpress supply of cheap ATmega328 silicon (or clones) is concerned, sure you can get them. Caveat emptor of course, as always with these things.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-10PCS-LOT-atmega328p-au-atmega328p-atmega328-QFP32-In-stock-Best-price-High-quality-Hot/32352260821.html?spm=2114.031010208.3.9.P2hWnr&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_3_71_72_73_74_75,searchweb0_0,searchweb201560_9

[nbritton]

The Atmel site lists the TQFP ATmega328P chips as USD 1.79 (in 1000s), so they're nearly definitely using fakes 

If they are fakes, will they work the same as real Atmel chips?

[Mechatrommer]

I can pickup 10 nano clones for $21 or 10 mini pro clones for $16.90

mini doesnt have usb chip. nano has china ch340G usb chip. i quickly tested the $3 nano it seems to take the code, havent done timing or extensive test if its a couterfeit... i havent test my newly arrived <$3 mini if its a counterfeit as well.. if you dont have avrisp programmer or usb->uart chip, forget mini...

[sleemanj]

The Atmel site lists the TQFP ATmega328P chips as USD 1.79 (in 1000s), so they're nearly definitely using fakes 

If they are fakes, will they work the same as real Atmel chips?

Unlikely to be fake, just "not entirely legimatly sourced", probably actual atmel silicon inside, but may be over-run from an official order gone out the back door, a ghost shift running the factory during the night, rejected parts for non-critical reasons etc.

It's not impossible there are compativle clones out there, but if so, they woul have to be very good ones because I have never heard of anybody finding something that should work didn't on thier china-sourced atmega.

[GreyWoolfe]

I bought a couple of these from fleabay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111739530679?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

$6.49 USD is more than you paid but my windows 7 laptop loaded it up without any issues or need to download drivers and when I upgraded to windows 10, it still worked perfectly.  No issues with the Arduino software either.  I would buy these again if I had a need for any more Unos.

[amyk]

The Atmel site lists the TQFP ATmega328P chips as USD 1.79 (in 1000s), so they're nearly definitely using fakes 

1ku is not a lot for mass production applications like these. I expect these were bought in an order of magnitude or more quantity, and there are significant discounts at that level.

[nbritton]

The Atmel site lists the TQFP ATmega328P chips as USD 1.79 (in 1000s), so they're nearly definitely using fakes 

1ku is not a lot for mass production applications like these. I expect these were bought in an order of magnitude or more quantity, and there are significant discounts at that level.

Well it says they have 50k in stock, so that is considerably more than 1k. I think I'm going to take my chances, the reviews are good for the product and company and they have 7,500 pervious orders between the three of those devices. All I care is that they run code, I already own three legit UNO R3s for development purposes. What programming method is recommend for the Mini Pros?

[nbritton]

Does the CH340 USB to serial interface have adequate support on Mac and Linux? I know that WCH has a driver here: http://www.wch.cn/download/CH341SER_MAC_ZIP.html but does it still work with current versions of Mac OS X and is it hassle free to install and use? Is FTDI supported by default without installing anything? What is supported out of the box without any special drivers?

[nbritton]

If I buy enough of these can I use them to duplicate the discrete circuity of a 1970s era computer? I would like to make my own computer from scratch so that I can learn more about how computers work. If I go the FPGA route then I can't probe its internals, so I was thinking a handful of arduinos would make a better learning rig. Do you know of any pre-made trainer kits that would be a better learning tool?

[nbritton]

Can the HC-06 Bluetooth to RS232 module be used to program the Mini Pro? I think I'm sold on the Mini Pros if I can program them wirelessly.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/hc-06-HC-06-RF-Wireless-Bluetooth-Transceiver-Slave-Module-RS232-TTL-to-UART-converter-and/731260_32342784842.html

[retrolefty]

Can the HC-06 Bluetooth to RS232 module be used to program the Mini Pro? I think I'm sold on the Mini Pros if I can program them wirelessly.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/hc-06-HC-06-RF-Wireless-Bluetooth-Transceiver-Slave-Module-RS232-TTL-to-UART-converter-and/731260_32342784842.html

 Remote programming of a typical arduino board requires the ability to pass the DTR signal from PC via Bluetooth to the arduino. The only proven Bluetooth solution I've found is the Adafruit EZ-link module. While it does cost more then most Asia BT modules it is a proven plug and play serial transparent and auto-baudrate (with windows 10 at least) and seems very reliable up to about 40 feet. Uploading takes longer then USB as the DTR stuff takes some time but it does allow remote programming which can be a very cool function for some projects.

http://www.adafruit.com/products/1588

[tec5c]

Do you know of any pre-made trainer kits that would be a better learning tool?

Yes, a textbook on computer architecture.

[nbritton]

Yes, a textbook on computer architecture.

Ugh... I have dyslexia, so reading a book is not easy for me. You have videos instead?

[Mechatrommer]

Yes, a textbook on computer architecture.

Ugh... I have dyslexia, so reading a book is not easy for me. You have videos instead?

good luck and hava nice days...
http://www.waitingforfriday.com/index.php/4-Bit_Computer

[zapta]

Does the CH340 USB to serial interface have adequate support on Mac and Linux? I know that WCH has a driver here: http://www.wch.cn/download/CH341SER_MAC_ZIP.html but does it still work with current versions of Mac OS X and is it hassle free to install and use? Is FTDI supported by default without installing anything? What is supported out of the box without any special drivers?

FTDI runs on Mac and Linux without having to install drivers.

I avoid installing drivers and other software that come from China, mostly for security concerns.

[edavid]

I want to pickup some extra spare arudinos to use in dedicated projects. On Aliexpress, I can pickup 10 nano clones for $21 or 10 mini pro clones for $16.90, which ones should I get?

Nano.   It's worth the little bit of extra money to get the USB port built in.

Even the UNO clone is only $2.74, how come I can't find a bare Atmel ATmega328P chips for as cheap as these assembled boards on aliexpress?

Maybe you're not very good at searching 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-10PCS-ATMEGA328P-AU-ATMEGA328P-ATMEGA328-8-bit-microcontroller-AVR-32-k-flash-memory-QFP/32510774853.html

The Atmel site lists the TQFP ATmega328P chips as USD 1.79 (in 1000s), so they're nearly definitely using fakes 

Except that no one has ever seen an AVR clone 

FTDI runs on Mac and Linux without having to install drivers.

I avoid installing drivers and other software that come from China, mostly for security concerns.

Does everyone see the irony here?  #ftdigate

[tszaboo]

The Atmel site lists the TQFP ATmega328P chips as USD 1.79 (in 1000s), so they're nearly definitely using fakes 

Except that no one has ever seen an AVR clone 

FTDI runs on Mac and Linux without having to install drivers.

I avoid installing drivers and other software that come from China, mostly for security concerns.

Does everyone see the irony here?  #ftdigate

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/3-arduino-possible-holly-molly-chinese-avr-clones-are-coming-meet-lgt8f88a-mavr-core-processor/
So core is copied, the rest is just putting peripherals next to each other.

[edavid]

Except that no one has ever seen an AVR clone 

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/3-arduino-possible-holly-molly-chinese-avr-clones-are-coming-meet-lgt8f88a-mavr-core-processor/
So core is copied, the rest is just putting peripherals next to each other.

Notice that post is from 2013, and it still hasn't happened.

[Cliff Matthews]

Except that no one has ever seen an AVR clone 

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/3-arduino-possible-holly-molly-chinese-avr-clones-are-coming-meet-lgt8f88a-mavr-core-processor/
So core is copied, the rest is just putting peripherals next to each other.

Notice that post is from 2013, and it still hasn't happened.

Maybe it has.. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA86V2Z33190

[edavid]

Except that no one has ever seen an AVR clone 

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/3-arduino-possible-holly-molly-chinese-avr-clones-are-coming-meet-lgt8f88a-mavr-core-processor/
So core is copied, the rest is just putting peripherals next to each other.

Notice that post is from 2013, and it still hasn't happened.

Maybe it has.. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA86V2Z33190

Interesting, but it's a 2013 product, with only 8K flash/1K RAM, and it costs more than an Atmel ATMEGA328 based board.  Is the LGT8F88A pin compatible with any Atmel chip?

[tszaboo]

Except that no one has ever seen an AVR clone 

https://olimex.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/3-arduino-possible-holly-molly-chinese-avr-clones-are-coming-meet-lgt8f88a-mavr-core-processor/
So core is copied, the rest is just putting peripherals next to each other.

Notice that post is from 2013, and it still hasn't happened.

Maybe it has.. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA86V2Z33190

Interesting, but it's a 2013 product, with only 8K flash/1K RAM, and it costs more than an Atmel ATMEGA328 based board.  Is the LGT8F88A pin compatible with any Atmel chip?

How much effort does it take to put extra flash into a microcontroller, and to laser mark a different company's name on it? The price of that particular board is not indicative.
The real issue is that chinese companies have no moral code, when it comes to copying and they will guard their internal market and information to their last breath.

[paf]

One "minor" detail.

Minis and Nanos do not have a polyfuse. So, if the "part between the chair and the breadboard" makes a short circuit, on Nanos you will have to replace an SMD diode (minimum).

You can get cheap "Arduino Uno" clones from China with a polyfuse, offering some protection from shorts. 

Ebay examples:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-UNO-R3-ATmega328P-CH340-Mini-USB-Board-for-Compatible-Arduino-/311155383820?hash=item48724e5e0c

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UNO-R3-ATmega328P-CH340-Mini-USB-Board-Compatible-Arduino-NEW-/221591186520?hash=item3397dd2c58


Another warning: While on the real Arduino Uno, the USB 'converter' may be programmed to "look like" a keyboard/mouse/joystick to the host PC, the CH340g device is only a serial port.

 

[edavid]

One "minor" detail.

Minis and Nanos do not have a polyfuse. So, if the "part between the chair and the breadboard" makes a short circuit, on Nanos you will have to replace an SMD diode (minimum).

You can get cheap "Arduino Uno" clones from China with a polyfuse, offering some protection from shorts. 

He said he wants them for embedded projects, so presumably the smaller size would be more important.  Development can be done with an Uno clone though.

Another warning: While on the real Arduino Uno, the USB 'converter' may be programmed to "look like" a keyboard/mouse/joystick to the host PC, the CH340g device is only a serial port.

I think you are mixing up Unos and Leonardos here.  Leonardo clones are available also, but I haven't seen them in the smaller Nano-like size.

[paf]

He said he wants them for embedded projects, so presumably the smaller size would be more important.  Development can be done with an Uno clone though.

Good point. 

I think you are mixing up Unos and Leonardos here.  Leonardo clones are available also, but I haven't seen them in the smaller Nano-like size.

Unos can be used as keyboards also:
http://mitchtech.net/arduino-usb-hid-keyboard/

Leonardo clones exist (at least on eBay) and they seem to have a polyfuse:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leonardo-Pro-Micro-ATmega32U4-16MHz-5V-Replace-ATmega328-Arduino-Pro-Mini/321516943415


 

[MLXXXp]

Leonardo clones are available also, but I haven't seen them in the smaller Nano-like size.

The Arduino/Genuino Micro is essentially a Leonardo in a smaller form factor. Ebay clones are available (these are the longer ones with the reset switch). The shorter Sparkfun Pro Micro is also similar to a Leonardo but lacks some I/O pins and other signals, along with the reset switch, 3.3V output and ICSP header, but is available in a 3.3V/8MHz version (clones too).

[edavid]

Leonardo clones exist (at least on eBay) and they seem to have a polyfuse:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leonardo-Pro-Micro-ATmega32U4-16MHz-5V-Replace-ATmega328-Arduino-Pro-Mini/321516943415

Thanks, they are also available on AliExpress for about $3.

I guess another option would be a Digispark clone @ $1.50, but they don't have much code space.

[nbritton]

Nano.   It's worth the little bit of extra money to get the USB port built in.

Even with the CH340 USB to serial chip? I use predominantly Mac and Linux, my only Windows PC is my work issued laptop in my drawer that I never use.

Maybe you're not very good at searching 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-10PCS-ATMEGA328P-AU-ATMEGA328P-ATMEGA328-8-bit-microcontroller-AVR-32-k-flash-memory-QFP/32510774853.html

What about a through hole chip?

[edavid]

Nano.   It's worth the little bit of extra money to get the USB port built in.

Even with the CH340 USB to serial chip? I use predominantly Mac and Linux, my only Windows PC is my work issued laptop in my drawer that I never use.

There are drivers available for Mac and Linux, and some people seem happy with them, e.g.: http://0xcf.com/2015/03/13/chinese-arduinos-with-ch340-ch341-serial-usb-chip-on-os-x-yosemite/

Maybe you're not very good at searching 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-10PCS-ATMEGA328P-AU-ATMEGA328P-ATMEGA328-8-bit-microcontroller-AVR-32-k-flash-memory-QFP/32510774853.html

What about a through hole chip?

http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-atmega328p%25252dpu-10pcs.html?site=glo&SearchText=atmega328p-pu+10pcs&g=y&SortType=price_asc&groupsort=1

[dadler]

If you intend to make your own boards at home, it's so much easier to use SMT parts. It's such a pain to have to drill TH holes...

The larger SMT parts (0805, SOIC, QFP32) are in some ways easier and faster to solder by hand as well (don't have to flip the board over, etc), even if you are sending out for boards.

[AlxDroidDev]

I have bought Mini Pro and Nanos by the pound (mostly from Deal Extreme) over the last few years. All of them worked as expected. The 328s themselves aren't fakes, since they worked as expected.

The only problem I had were with a few of the Nanos v3.0 that still had the fake FTDI chips (anyone remember the "FTDIgate" ?). the fake FTDI chips wouldn't  last as much and would fail after only a few hours. This didn't trash the boards entirely, because I still could program them using ICSP, bypassing the bootloader, meaning the 328s on them were still perfect. I didn't have this problem with the Nanos that feature the CH340 USB bridge.

I am more inclined to buy assembled Nanos and Mini Pros from China than spare Atmega328 in QFP32: when buying spare chips, these are much likely to be fake, and even Sparkfun has been a victim of fake 328s: https://www.sparkfun.com/news/350

[Phili76]

Nano.   It's worth the little bit of extra money to get the USB port built in.

Even with the CH340 USB to serial chip? I use predominantly Mac and Linux, my only Windows PC is my work issued laptop in my drawer that I never use.

There are drivers available for Mac and Linux, and some people seem happy with them, e.g.: http://0xcf.com/2015/03/13/chinese-arduinos-with-ch340-ch341-serial-usb-chip-on-os-x-yosemite/

To use the CH340 on OSX El Capitain you have to turn off kext driver signing. It´s working but you have to disable driver signing. Maybe there will be a driver someday on the official site.
Just found: http://blog.sengotta.net/signed-mac-os-driver-for-winchiphead-ch340-serial-bridge/

[paf]

....

The only problem I had were with a few of the Nanos v3.0 that still had the fake FTDI chips (anyone remember the "FTDIgate" ?). the fake FTDI chips wouldn't  last as much and would fail after only a few hours. This didn't trash the boards entirely, because I still could program them using ICSP, bypassing the bootloader, meaning the 328s on them were still perfect. I didn't have this problem with the Nanos that feature the CH340 USB bridge.

....

Did you try to repair them?

FTDI clone repair:
http://arduinotronics.blogspot.dk/2014/10/does-windows-ftdi-update-brick-your.html


Fixing the FTDI drivers – prevent auto updates
http://www.rei-labs.net/fixing-the-ftdi-drivers-prevent-auto-updates/

[Guide] Permanently repair broken fake FTDI chip
http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=274387.0

FTDI Bricked Chips Fix
http://tech.scargill.net/ftdi-bricked-chips-fix

[AlxDroidDev]

Did you try to repair them?

Oh, yes, I did! I tried all of that. Somehow the FTDI on them went FUBAR, which makes me believe that not only the fake FTDIs are susceptible to the "FTDIgate" bricking problem, but they also have a very shorter lifespan.