Beginners, don't run away, please!

[mtdoc]

OK, word police, make a list of words that everyone on the Earth must avoid using on this forum.

Here’s the original “starter set” 

7 words

[Jwillis]

Although I believe this to true and just ,keeping a generally mild mannered civil tongue is important in a public forum.I agree that some people can be frustrating to deal with but a discussion can be done without excessively harsh language .
 I don't mind criticism as long as it is presented with explanations and solutions.I'm a beginner again ,after years of putting it aside, in the field of electronics.No I don't have the education,I'm having to relearn math I've forgotten years ago.But I do try.I don't expect to get a university degree here but I do like a challenge .I t may seem that something might be over my head or not investigating relevant information is not to annoy people.It's simply because I just don't know .If I make a mistake and blow something up I'll find out why eventually. It all apart of the learning experience.
There are some really smart people here who have made this field a career and I admire that. But understand ,most of us don't have access to many devices and tools you may have become used to .Purchasing these things is just not possible for many of us because of either budget restraints or availability. Most of the stuff I have is old ,used and may not be a s accurate as something new .But its good enough for my needs.I'm don't expect to launch someone into space or develop the next ground breaking invention . If I have something to share in information , advice or experience it's not to make myself look good .It's because I enjoy electronics.

[Electro Detective]

Even at heated debates mixed with product fan boy rituals, it's a quiet clean informative lake here compared to the Facebook drivel cesspool, we should be thankful 

Besides, the beginners should be aware (and willing) they are diving in deep here amongst the big boys with big toys.


I wouldn't complain as a newb if they go at it, discussing the merits of cheap and out of reach priced gear

How can you not get something out of that, even if the original post has swayed off topic for a page or two?

Beginners are here to learn something, I say throw them in the pool fully dressed and damn the torpedos!   


Beginners and Newbs: am I on the money or what?!! 

[Hextejas]

OK Lightaged, I'm reporting you. You said MILK !!!

Just teasing I hope you know.

And being the noobiest of the noobs, this forum has been the best so far.
And I say fork or some form there of. Like go fork yourself.

And what the heck does " And Bob's your uncle " mean ?
I've heard the dude in the videos say that a few times. Is that Dave ?

[Brumby]

And what the heck does " And Bob's your uncle " mean ?

It basically means "everything is good".  In electronics terms it means everything is sorted and things will work.

You can Google the phrase for more insights.

[Cerebus]

Has this thread gone a bit  off the rails into the territory of reductio ad absurdum? 

That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means. Reductio ad absurdum is where you prove or disprove a proposition by demonstrating that it can be reduced to an absurd conclusion. e.g. "There is no smallest positive rational number, because if there were, then it could be divided by two to get a smaller one."

I'm not offended by the F-word or any words that readily spring to mind. Rather than define a list of offensive words I would just prefer the F-word not be used in the beginners section. It is not because there may be children or highly sensitive souls present. It is because I think replies that use the F-word are never as helpful as those where the writer has thoughtfully crafted an answer that avoids it.

So what offends me is the writer did not think the forum audience worthy of choosing to avoid using it. I think less of them for it.

Look at all the forum members who post and maintain a moderate respectful tone and be guided by their example. As a guide I would say using the F-word once every 5000 posts would be reasonable. Or not at all.

I think it's a bit rich calling for a moderate respectful tone immediately after posting a remark that indicates the exact opposite of respect: "I think less of them for it."

[mikerj]

I used the words I did because I was upset and wanted to express my complete disgust at how people act like assholes and get into pissing contests that swamp the original OP's question with childish behavior and pointless bickering.

As much as I agree with your sentiment, acting like an asshole yourself isn't going to bring about a solution, and means you are far less likely to be taken seriously.  Bad language rarely, if ever, reinforces a point and it certainly doesn't help to make the forum a nicer, friendlier place.

[CatalinaWOW]

My grandfather, a crusty, tattooed ex-soldier, fireman and policeman, always told me that profanity was the crutch of the verbally crippled.  Without totally agreeing with him I think there is a lot of truth in his comment.  Whenever I am tempted to use profanity it is a warning to me that I might be being overly emotional, or too lazy to precisely express my opinion.

[paulca]

My grandfather, a crusty, tattooed ex-soldier, fireman and policeman, always told me that profanity was the crutch of the verbally crippled.  Without totally agreeing with him I think there is a lot of truth in his comment.  Whenever I am tempted to use profanity it is a warning to me that I might be being overly emotional, or too lazy to precisely express my opinion.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

[Cerebus]

My grandfather, a crusty, tattooed ex-soldier, fireman and policeman, always told me that profanity was the crutch of the verbally crippled.

As is often the case with folk wisdom, that turns out not to be true. Swearing tends to correlate with a broader vocabulary and with higher intelligence - some details here but a Google search for "Swearing and intelligence" will yield a host of sources.

Complaints about swearing/profanity tend to act as a marker of perceived social or moral superiority. The most frequent swearers tend, in my experience, to be at one of the two extreme ends of the social scale - either working class or very upper class - cf "swearing like a trooper" and "swearing like a lord". The people in the middle like to think they are both socially and morally superior to the former, and morally superior to the latter. So concern about swearing is just a old form of "virtue signalling" but has no merit as an actual indicator of moral, social or intellectual superiority.

You can have as broad a vocabulary as possible, as much power of self-expression as you like, as great rhetorical powers as Winston Churchill, but at the end of the day nothing else in English has the expressive power that is possessed by the single word "Shit!".

[StillTrying]

Everyone is a beginner in some/many subjects.

Meanwhile, where does an expert post a beginners question.

[Cerebus]

Has this thread gone a bit  off the rails into the territory of reductio ad absurdum? 

That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means. Reductio ad absurdum is where you prove or disprove a proposition by demonstrating that it can be reduced to an absurd conclusion. e.g. "There is no smallest positive rational number, because if there were, then it could be divided by two to get a smaller one."

It was a pun. I am well aware of the mathematical proof technique. The thread has, as often happens, diminishes into an argument about absurdly small details of minute tangential relevance. The proof technique reveals a logical inconsistency, but I use it to highlight logical inconsistencies that do nothing to improve understanding.

A pun, by its very nature, is supposed to be humorous. "... I use it to highlight logical inconsistencies that do nothing to improve understanding" - can you just point out where in your original message you did that, or is that explanation just sophistry? If you didn't know what it really meant, no one will think less of you - unless you try to cover that up by bluffing your way out.

I think it's a bit rich calling for a moderate respectful tone immediately after posting a remark that indicates the exact opposite of respect: "I think less of them for it."

Aren't you confusing cause and effect? There is a difference between showing respect and having respect. It follows from the word respect being both a verb and a noun.

A respectful tone is one that doesn't stoop to insult, which you were parlously close to, if not already at. As I say, a bit rich, and attempting to recover by further sophistry doesn't exactly cover you in glory.

[Cerebus]

Everyone is a beginner in some/many subjects.

The older I get the more aware I become of my astounding ignorance. Amazing really, because when I was 16 I knew exactly how to fix everything that was wrong with the world.

[Alex Eisenhut]

OK, word police, make a list of words that everyone on the Earth must avoid using on this forum. Remember if you use any of the words I have listed, you are being intentionally offensive and deserve to have your account suspended.

Apostrophe plurals and misuse of it's should be on there... 

[paulca]

Everyone is a beginner in some/many subjects.

The older I get the more aware I become of my astounding ignorance. Amazing really, because when I was 16 I knew exactly how to fix everything that was wrong with the world.

[Lightages]

It is quite ironic that this thread has devolved into the exact kind of off topic mess that always happens. What was the message in the OP?

Don't go off the rails and argue points not asked in the original post so as to no scare away beginners.

What has happened?

The thread has devolved into a pissing contest over the use of a couple of words

 

[rsjsouza]

I agree with Lightages' OP, profanity and all, which brings the exact amount of repulsion when I see such beginners threads unfold this way (sometimes even with 100% opinion-based threads).

After all, the chest thumpers that believe are right and never let go in their attempt to convince others how wrong they are in their opinion or inexperience is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion.

You keep doing you, Lightages!

[DimitriP]

The thread has devolved into a pissing contest over the use of a couple of words

Your surprize, surprizes me
Not everyone can ( or wants or even -if I may say that- should - )  hold hands and sing songs by the campfire.

 

[rhb]

It seems to me that we are in danger of entering snowflake territory where everyone is supposed to agree with everything anyone else says. That is hardly healthy.  It has gotten the USA into endless wars because no one was willing to disagree until it was too late.

The fact of the matter is this is one of the best discussion groups since early Usenet.  I spent much of my career working in oil company R&D.  Most of the people I know well have PhDs from Stanford and similar schools.  I can't think of one who can come close to the electronics skills and experience of the people on this forum.

From my perspective this thread looks as if it were spawned by my disagreement with rstofer about "hacking" Rigol scopes.  Perhaps you have some other dispute I failed to notice in mind.  I don't recall any profanity in that thread.  While gentleman do not use profanity, the fact of the matter is we have profanity embedded in a standard emoticon in the reply dialog.

The members of this forum take considerable time to provide very high quality advice to any and all on a wide range of matters.  Probably the best exemplar is the thread on building a mass spectrometer which garnered a reply from someone who had built not one, but two!   One was a low budget academic build and the other was a big budget commercial build.

 I personally question whether someone who finds this forum too uncomfortable to participate would amount to anything.  Doubtless there is the odd duck or two, but I  think such people are quite rare.

[T3sl4co1l]

It is quite ironic that this thread has devolved into the exact kind of off topic mess that always happens. What was the message in the OP?

Don't go off the rails and argue points not asked in the original post so as to no scare away beginners.

What has happened?

The thread has devolved into a pissing contest over the use of a couple of words

 

>Trollbaiter posts bait
>Trolls take bait
>Trollbaiter complains that trolls took bait

Whether or not that was your intention, that is precisely the structure observed here.  What were you expecting?  That people just wake up and become reasonable?

I was raised back in the dark depths of the internet where trolls roamed freely; few, even then, took to heart the correct method of dealing with trolls.  It seems like even fewer do so today, though.

A better sticky post would be to tell newbies how to deal with trolls; but, newbies being newbies, and even moreso humans being humans, it would not materially affect the SNR of the content here.  It might prove a valuable lesson for the few that heed its call, but most would not.

Tim

[vk6zgo]

Frankly, I think beginners should run away, with their dumb LTspice simulations of circuits which have no hope of working in the real world, their "Arduinos", their mad propensity to test their Oscilloscopes by hanging them across the nearest Mains socket, their total lack of knowledge of basics, & so much more.....

I made a suggestion some years back that Dave produce a  segment called "Learn some Basics.....Please!"
Well, the reaction was mostly as if I was "The Grinch that stole Christmas"!
Apparently we weren't supposed to injure their delicate little psyches!

As to using the "F word", I don't use it online or in any written form.
In everyday speech, I drop the odd one, but overuse always reminds me of when I was a stupid teenager, where our every second f----ing word was  the "F word".

Because of this, it always smacks of immaturity, or if a serious context, of being contrived to show the user is "down to earth".

I now seem to have strayed a bit, so back to the original  topic.
Beginners should "get off my lawn!", too! 

[Electro Detective]

Here's a possible new thread born by this one!   

Designing a Virtual -Troll Meter-      

1, Virtual analogue display with digital readout

2. Needle at null centre to indicate positive and negative values.

3. Auto and Manual Range Sensitivity with Fast Peak / Min-Max indication for capturing elusive transients

5. Thermocouple input to indicate heating and cooling debate levels

6. Logging with real time Trend graph, and CHEAP (maybe that should be 1. )


FWIW I doubt serious trolls would leave their day job at Facebook to fester here

They'll take one look at the starting gate > www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php  and do a runner back to Facebook

[tautech]

Here's a possible new thread born by this one!   

Designing a Virtual -Troll Meter-      

I've had to activate this one on odd occasions.



Feel free to use it !

[Brumby]

Frankly, I think beginners should run away, with their dumb LTspice simulations of circuits which have no hope of working in the real world, their "Arduinos", their mad propensity to test their Oscilloscopes by hanging them across the nearest Mains socket, their total lack of knowledge of basics, & so much more.....

I made a suggestion some years back that Dave produce a  segment called "Learn some Basics.....Please!"
Well, the reaction was mostly as if I was "The Grinch that stole Christmas"!
Apparently we weren't supposed to injure their delicate little psyches!

I truly hope you are not serious.

[T3sl4co1l]

I certainly don't agree that the OP was trolling.

Nice of you to trim the very next line;

Whether or not that was your intention, that is precisely the structure observed here.

I was not making an accusation, I was observing a structural isomorphism.

(Unless your deliberate omission is in fact a troll, in which case, you win this round. )

A key part of trolling is a deliberate intention to provoke an inflamed debate and to do it without regard for whether one believes in the point made. There can be an arbitrary choice of either side of the debate. Whichever side is likely to gain most effect will be preferred.

I'm using a more general criteria here, not requiring intent.  The effect may occur, regardless of intent, and a poster's true intent is unknowable, anyway -- so, it doesn't make a very useful criteria, does it? So I discarded it.

I'm writing here, in an analytical and introspective manner, in the overall hopes that a few posters (perhaps including the OP) pick up on it, and develop a more disinterested perspective with their interactions.

And that, my friends, is the key.  If a troll can't get under your skin and make it personal to you, they cannot succeed.  They may flail wildly, but the harder you ignore them, the weaker they become.

The true winner of a troll argument is the one who does not reply.

Tim