Author Topic: Beginners, don't run away, please!  (Read 16694 times)

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Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2018, 04:28:37 am »
 |O
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2018, 06:13:59 am »
Cheers mate  :popcorn:

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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2018, 07:57:49 am »
Frankly, I think beginners should run away, with their dumb LTspice simulations of circuits which have no hope of working in the real world, their "Arduinos", their mad propensity to test their Oscilloscopes by hanging them across the nearest Mains socket, their total lack of knowledge of basics, & so much more..... :palm:

I made a suggestion some years back that Dave produce a  segment called "Learn some Basics.....Please!"
Well, the reaction was mostly as if I was "The Grinch that stole Christmas"!
Apparently we weren't supposed to injure their delicate little psyches! >:(

I truly hope you are not serious.

Only a little bit. ;D

Of course, we should help beginners, but it is a two way street.
If they are going to approach people who have substantial Electronics knowledge, it seems not too much to ask that they get some idea of the field they are attempting to enter.

My "pet hate" is those people who attempt projects in the RF field without any knowledge of the various design constraints inherent in it.

Some "fall in love" with general purpose Op Amps, & try to produce a "Radio Receiver"by tacking a tuned circuit on the input or output of the device.
This usually results in either a circuit which does not receive, or alternatively, oscillates its head off.

Most avoid the latter result because they designed a tuned circuit which is "resonant", but exhibits such abysmal "Q" that the "receiver" lacks both selectivity & sensitivity.
The resonance formula is a "trap for young players", in that many LC combinations will satisfy it, but only some have values of reactance which allow the circuit to show the classic  "peak" at resonance.

Trying to explain why their favourite website's beaut design is not workable becomes an exercise in frustration.

Then there are those who build VHF circuits on "breadboards", &,wonder why they don't workii

 

Offline paulca

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2018, 08:58:54 am »
As to using the "F word", I don't use it online or in any written form.
In everyday speech, I drop the odd one, but overuse always reminds me of when I was a stupid teenager, where our every second f----ing word was  the "F word".

Uses the F word while explaining he doesn't use the F word, but thinly veils it with hyphens as if people won't figure it out.  If you going to swear have some fucking balls about it :)

On newbies who have no regard for their own safety and blow stuff and/or themselves up, I say let them at it.  There are too many people in the world, every time an idiot pops themselves the world, statistically speaking, gets smarter.
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2018, 10:06:33 am »
As to using the "F word", I don't use it online or in any written form.
In everyday speech, I drop the odd one, but overuse always reminds me of when I was a stupid teenager, where our every second f----ing word was  the "F word".

Uses the F word while explaining he doesn't use the F word, but thinly veils it with hyphens as if people won't figure it out.  If you going to swear have some fucking balls about it :)
My comment was meant to be humorous, just as your reply is.
Quote


On newbies who have no regard for their own safety and blow stuff and/or themselves up, I say let them at it.  There are too many people in the world, every time an idiot pops themselves the world, statistically speaking, gets smarter.

They aren't the ones that concern me most, it is the equally dumb, but lucky survivors that get up my nose!
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2018, 12:01:21 pm »
My "pet hate" is those people who attempt projects in the RF field without any knowledge of the various design constraints inherent in it.

Yeah .... well ... RF is one of those areas that attracts great interest - but one that demands knowledge which exceeds the grasp of many mere mortals, let alone beginners.

While some beginners may have had some introductory instruction in electricity, others may have educated themselves from nowhere else than the internet (shudder).  They will have had no mentor to whom they could put their dumb questions ... so they will try as best they can.

Let's face it .... with some of the questions we see about connecting LEDs - is it no wonder there are some really bizarre questions brought in the RF field?  While it may be frustrating to someone who knows enough to build a 200W linear amp for 2m, these beginners are at least making an effort.  RF is not easy and beginners are certainly going to be babes in the woods and deer in the headlights at the same time.

If anything, I think beginners in RF need all the breaks and all the help they can get.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 02:08:45 am by Brumby »
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2018, 02:22:11 pm »
My "pet hate" is those people who attempt projects in the RF field without any knowledge of the various design constraints inherent in it.

Yeah .... well ... RF is one of those areas that attracts great interest - but one that demands knowledge which exceeds the grasp of many mere mortals, let alone beginners.

While some beginners may have had some introductory instruction in electricity, others may have educated themselves from nowhere else than the internet (shudder).  They will have had no mentor to whom they could put their dumb questions ... so they will try as best they can.

Let's face it .... with some of the questions we see about connecting LEDs - is it no wonder there are some really bizarre questions brought in the RF field?  While it may be frustrating to someone who knows enough to build a 200W linear amp for 2m, these beginners at least making an effort.  RF is not easy and beginners are certainly going to be babes in the woods and deer in the headlights at the same time.

If anything, I think beginners in RF need all the breaks and all the help they can get.

Brumby is absolutely right; I follow some of your discussions and found a bit ironic that you were once most probably also a beginner titter-tattering on RF, which was pretty much 50% of the interesting things one could do in electronics as a hobby in the times of vaccuum tubes and early solid state electronics (the other was audio amplifiers). Despite I came a lot later than that era (although still used vaccuum tubes at large), I was very interested in RF in my beginnings and did a lot of stupid mistakes by simple experimentation.

Hopefully you did not let this frustration go unless under extreme circumstances (such as when the person really can't listen or make an effort to learn from the replies, which I totally agree with you). If the opposite, that is a textbook example of what Lightages is referring.
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Offline paulca

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2018, 04:57:38 pm »
Playing with RF is a good way to have the police at the door in the UK.

A friend of a friend ran a music studio.  There were having issues with the wireless guitar senders.  They opened them up and hacked them to produce significantly more output.

A week later the army called to the studio and demanded they shut off whatever it was they were using as it was causing interference on their microwave links for many miles around.  They used it as a triangulation exercise to hunt them down.

Or it could be an urban legend pub story...
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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2018, 06:17:23 pm »
You can have as broad a vocabulary as possible, as much power of self-expression as you like, as great rhetorical powers as Winston Churchill, but at the end of the day nothing else in English has the expressive power that is possessed by the single word "Shit!".

AMEN, brother!  As a Jersey Boy (from New Jersey for those who do not know)  This is absolutely a way of life.  I have used the above, along with other single words like F**k, dammit, sonovab**ch and others ;D
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Offline paulca

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2018, 07:42:05 pm »
It's all relative.  When someone who never swears, suddenly swears it has a much greater impact.

Inversely someone who swear all the time who swears, you tend to just filter them out.


Oh yes... sorry... Bollox.
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Offline Eosander

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2018, 07:46:44 pm »
I made a post, hoping to get some support and/or constructive critisism if there were any errors in my plans.
My thread ended up in a discussion wether pdf-files were safe or not...
I won't generalise, and say all people are unhelpful though.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2018, 10:56:32 pm »
I made a post, hoping to get some support and/or constructive critisism if there were any errors in my plans.

My thread ended up in a discussion wether pdf-files were safe or not...

I won't generalise, and say all people are unhelpful though.


Please supply a link to that post,

it would be interesting to see if the initial request for support and/or constructive criticism were satisfied  :-//

before the thread meandered to PDF security  :scared: 

 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2018, 01:58:58 am »
Please supply a link to that post,

Eosander only has 6 posts - it wasn't hard to find:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/circuit-and-pcb-design/msg1423259/#msg1423259

At the time I write this, there are only 8 replies.  The original question hasn't been answered and the PDF safety discussion is in its early days.  Ratio of on-topic content to the whole thread is around 50%.

In the history of hijacking, this isn't a prizewinner yet, but it has the potential to be one if people don't take it out the PDF discussion to its own thread.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2018, 02:06:22 am »
Practice what you preach .... I just started such a thread.

Yes, it's in the Beginners section when General Chat was probably more appropriate - but I didn't want to take it too far away from the original source, in case it was missed.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2018, 04:39:47 am »
Rick Law:

While I understand your intent, and even have sympathy for your position I must say I disagree. Censorship is not going to work, never mind not protect anyone from seeing or hearing words in real life. In some countries some words mean nothing but in others they are held to be extremely offensive, even to the point of people being killed.

If we are to try and say nothing offensive to anyone at anytime, communication comes to an end. You can't be afraid to say what is on your mind even if it risks offending someone else. What words do we ban: shit, fanny, baldy, moron? Where will it end?

Lightages, it was perhaps not a good idea for me to call you out by name.  I should spend a few bits of storage explaining why I did so.

Since I was about to discuss not using f-bomb in a post where you just used the f-bomb, I thought it was best to be direct -- as oppose to saying it indirectly like "someone used f-bomb right here and it is not good".  Saying it in an indirect/round-about way may have the appearance of a "sneak attack" and such appearance was the last thing I wanted.  So, after careful consideration, I decided to just cite it as I did.  If you were offended to any degree, I apologize.

I hope you did noticed that I referenced you in a very respectful manner in that earlier reply, as it was my intend to be very respectful and non-accusational.

Now the context of why talking "f-bomb" matters in "inviting beginners"...

Beginners is more likely to be young.  The few times I ran into EE-interested beginners were kids - it was when I volunteered to help supervise/mentor a high school robotics team.  Each time when I was about to suggest "check this forum out", I held back.  I can just imagine the look of the Principal's face had I pointed a kid to a thread where f-bomb is dotted here and there with regular frequency.  If I feel that way, most teachers probably would as well.

Those kids probably swear a lot more than you or I do.  So, "triggering" them is I believe the least of the worry.  It is my believe that it is good to maintain certain level of decorum.  If we want this to be inviting to beginners, a good decorum in conducting the discussion is beneficial to the course.

This is of course not a forum designed to teach kids and probably never will be.  But it is such a lost when a valuable asset such as this forum cannot be shared with kids who would be interested in exactly the knowledge and experience this forum possesses.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 04:43:06 am by Rick Law »
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2018, 05:04:46 am »
My grandfather, a crusty, tattooed ex-soldier, fireman and policeman, always told me that profanity was the crutch of the verbally crippled.

As is often the case with folk wisdom, that turns out not to be true. Swearing tends to correlate with a broader vocabulary and with higher intelligence - some details here but a Google search for "Swearing and intelligence" will yield a host of sources.

Complaints about swearing/profanity tend to act as a marker of perceived social or moral superiority. The most frequent swearers tend, in my experience, to be at one of the two extreme ends of the social scale - either working class or very upper class - cf "swearing like a trooper" and "swearing like a lord". The people in the middle like to think they are both socially and morally superior to the former, and morally superior to the latter. So concern about swearing is just a old form of "virtue signalling" but has no merit as an actual indicator of moral, social or intellectual superiority.

You can have as broad a vocabulary as possible, as much power of self-expression as you like, as great rhetorical powers as Winston Churchill, but at the end of the day nothing else in English has the expressive power that is possessed by the single word "Shit!".

I am not sure any of this literature contradicts the folk wisdom.  Many "cripples" have the equipment to perform a given task, but don't use it for whatever reason.  The fact that those who swear more frequently tend to have higher intelligence may indicate that they disdain the mores of the common herd, not a positive attribute.  The comments about improved performance and pain resistance after swearing implies that there is a unique impact of these words on our systems.  An impact that lessons our pain response and has a similar impact on performance to adrenaline would indicate that these words are not in the same family as the rest of vocabulary. 

I don't disagree that often complaints about swearing are social comments.  As swearing also is often a social comment.

I swear.  Probably fit quite nicely in the profiles mentioned.  But I still think it is best used in small quantities.  Reserved for the times you smash your finger with a hammer, or accidentally grab the tip of the soldering iron.  When you are in a group that is comfortable with the use of this language.  Or the times when you don't care to show any nuance in your displeasure and don't care who you antagonize, where that single word shit does serve well. 

I came to this attitude when surrounded by folks who dramatically overused vulgarities.  Never a paragraph without them.  Frequently not a sentence.  And often a single word or word pair.  It didn't improve communication, in spite of the admittedly high intelligence of quite a few of those involved.   

I also try not to swear in public forums.  More people are likely to be offended by swearing than by the lack of it, so it is just courtesy.  I also don't call anyone specifically out for swearing.  That is also courtesy.  My comments here are not directed at any specific individual.  If anyone is offended by a call for less rather than more swearing I will just have to live with offending them.
 
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Offline ahbushnell

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2018, 03:27:28 pm »
This happens so many times. Beginners come here asking questions and the thread devolves into dick waving, arguing, and attacks that have nothing to do with the original question.

Please accept my apologies for this. There are many passionate people here who want to share their knowledge. Sometimes this gets in the way of helping and your original concern might get buried in petty bickering between the "experts" who would rather sword fight  with other "experts".  Ignore the noise.

To the "experts". STFU. Remember this is the beginners forum, not the bitch and whine forum. You are here to help the beginners with some advice. It is not the time bitch and argue with everyone who doesn't agree with you. If you think that the time for you to exercise your superiority over others is to debate into oblivion something the OP never asked is now, fuck off. Go start your own thread and argue there. Help the beginner with their original question and stop being a diva or go away. If you aren't answering the OP's question then you are being an asshole. Go start your own war somewhere else and stop scaring away beginners.

Fanboys of brands, fuck off. Rich assholes who think that everyone needs to spend $1,000 just to be part of the "club". fuck off. If you can't help the OP with something useful relating to their needs, fuck off.

In other words, consider the needs and questions of the OP and try to help instead of being a dick to anyone who disagrees with your high holier than thou position. Stop arguing points on things a beginner doesn't have a clue about or needs to consider at their level.  Doing so just scares the beginner away and shows what a egoistic prick you are.

Beginners:
If anyone says that you "must buy this brand" or that you "must spend $XXX or you are a fool" without a reason or justification, ignore them. They are just being self important illogical pricks. They are being fan boys and fashion experts. Regard those who give facts and reasons as those who have considered their positions and have weight to their opinions.

The most important thing is to not listen to anyone who says "don't worry" when there seems to be regulations to help you avoid problems. Anyone who says "don't worry" should be ignored, unless they qualify why.

Beginners, please be patient with the "experts". We are all not experts and most definitely not experts in communication. "Experts" in any field are not necessarily experts in anything else other than their narrow field of knowledge. Experts are usually complete failures at communication and empathy. The more expert a person is, the most likely they are at being nerds and irritating to others. Sorry.
Your use of "fuckoff" seems to be the same thing your complaining about.

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2018, 03:48:04 pm »
This thread seems to be a prima example of threads where the self proclaimed big boys fight. Beginners just watch and slowly back away.
 
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Offline medical-nerd

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2018, 04:31:19 pm »

Since I have a beginners interest in rf, arduinos and simulations, I started to back away a few posts ago. :scared:

Cheers
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Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2018, 06:13:22 pm »
I really fail to see the point of this thread (or the content that populated it)

Regardless of this forum, I find it that if you put enough effort into googling your problem and reading up on it, and then come to a community and ask, nobody will go hard on you.
Somebody is giving away his knowledge for free and that should be also respected.

Personally I haven't noticed any bulling on the forum towards new people (some members going at each other, but not significantly). People are generally politically correct, patient and sensitive, and I guess it has to do with the type of the community here.
   
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2018, 10:51:58 pm »

Your use of "fuckoff" seems to be the same thing your complaining about.

It's not.  Not at all.

There are two issues bouncing around this thread:  The hijacking of beginner topics, where the OP's question gets steamrolled into the dust - and - the language used here.

This thread was created to try and get the "steamrollers" to realise what is happening and pull their head in.  The "language" debate came about because of the phrase used.

While I may prefer that such a phrase be replaced by something less offensive, I will not stand on my high horse about that in this context.  I completely understand why it was used.  Lightages' point is far more important.  It is one I have raised myself on occasion - and I completely understand the frustration behind the intensity of the post.
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2018, 11:11:08 pm »
I really fail to see the point of this thread (or the content that populated it)
It's really contained in the original post.

Quote
Regardless of this forum, I find it that if you put enough effort into googling your problem and reading up on it, and then come to a community and ask, nobody will go hard on you.
Somebody is giving away his knowledge for free and that should be also respected.
That is what will usually happen here, too.

Quote
Personally I haven't noticed any bulling on the forum towards new people (some members going at each other, but not significantly). People are generally politically correct, patient and sensitive, and I guess it has to do with the type of the community here.
Sometimes people with conflicting opinion, a need to feel important, agendas of their own - or just forget that they are in the Beginners area - start trampling all over the thread and the real subject of the thread gets lost - to the dismay of the OP and the frustration of those who were trying to help.

Mostly, this place is great.  When you see the stuff that goes on in other places ... it is absolutely brilliant.  It's just that, on occasion, some poor beginner gets steamrolled.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2018, 11:27:41 pm »

Since I have a beginners interest in rf, arduinos and simulations, I started to back away a few posts ago. :scared:

Cheers

Don't let that dissuade you from asking questions or contributing in any way.  RF is not easy - but it can be fascinating and rewarding.  If it interests you, I encourage you to pursue the subject.  There are a lot of members here and you are bound guaranteed to encounter different personalities, experience ... and communication skills.  Be prepared for that and you will do well.

Arduino will get a mixed reception - basically because it is one corner of the expansive microprocessor/microcontroller arena.  It is, IMHO, a brilliant platform to get started with - and depending on your aspirations, you may spend your time productively in this area - or delve into the deeper mysteries of the chips, the programming and the interfaces to the world.  You will find people here that have favourite platforms and strong opinions.  Brace yourself and you will survive.   ;D

Simulation is definitely a good subject these days.  It's worth getting to know what's around and what the strengths and weaknesses are.

Bottom line - don't be gun shy ... but be prepared to duck every now and then.   ;)
 
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Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2018, 12:25:52 am »
I really fail to see the point of this thread (or the content that populated it)
It's really contained in the original post.
Actually I don't see that anything OP wrote will actually help, it just led to several pages of whatever (don't know how to describe it)

Regardless of this forum, I find it that if you put enough effort into googling your problem and reading up on it, and then come to a community and ask, nobody will go hard on you.
Somebody is giving away his knowledge for free and that should be also respected.
That is what will usually happen here, too.
What I wanted to say is that although you may not know something, some basic manners should be there, on your part, if you're asking for help. Don't just come with an attitude 'solve it for me' or 'give me'. Such attitude deserves a proper response.

Honestly, apart from experienced members going at each other occasionally, I haven't noticed any overreactions towards the rookies. Maybe there have been, but nothing that caught my attention.
And what little hostile behavior I found on the board was usually met with a strong negative reactions from other members.

This might be as good as it gets, not sure there's room for improvement, at least not considering we're just human and this is a public forum with people from all over...
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Beginners, don't run away, please!
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2018, 01:23:54 am »

Since I have a beginners interest in rf, arduinos and simulations, I started to back away a few posts ago. :scared:

Cheers

Beginner's ( & other's) attitudes to RF work seem to be one of the following:-

"I'm really clever, I'll download a simple circuit from the 'Net, feed it some square waves from my Arduino, & be the king of the Airwaves!"
"Waddya mean it won't work!-----It simulates OK on LTspice!"

Or:-
"I want to build a Radio receiver, so I want to know all about Maxwell's equations to do so------spend the next three days teaching me something I won't understand or need for a simple project!"

Or:-
"RF-----Aiiieeee!  Black Magic!"

The truth is, RF isn't that hard, & many people have made perfectly functional RF devices without knowing calculus, Maxwell's equations, or having 40 years experience, whilst others with two out of three of those made massive stuff ups.
Be very selective in what you read about RF (or anything for that matter) on the Internet, as there is a lot of  duck poo out there.

Simulations---I don't like LT spice, because it lends itself to schematics with weird layouts, doesn't allow for parasitic capacitance & inductance, & as default shows all signal sources as DC generators.(complete with the two slanted lines indicating a commutator).
This is exactly the opposite to normal practice, where the default is a symbol without the " commutator", with labelling to say if it is AC or DC.

Simulations are a trap for beginners, as they stifle the imagination.
We didn't have them & could visualise circuit operation without being hand fed.
 


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