Beginners, don't run away, please!

[Lightages]

This happens so many times. Beginners come here asking questions and the thread devolves into dick waving, arguing, and attacks that have nothing to do with the original question.

Please accept my apologies for this. There are many passionate people here who want to share their knowledge. Sometimes this gets in the way of helping and your original concern might get buried in petty bickering between the "experts" who would rather sword fight  with other "experts".  Ignore the noise.

To the "experts". STFU. Remember this is the beginners forum, not the bitch and whine forum. You are here to help the beginners with some advice. It is not the time bitch and argue with everyone who doesn't agree with you. If you think that the time for you to exercise your superiority over others is to debate into oblivion something the OP never asked is now, fuck off. Go start your own thread and argue there. Help the beginner with their original question and stop being a diva or go away. If you aren't answering the OP's question then you are being an asshole. Go start your own war somewhere else and stop scaring away beginners.

Fanboys of brands, fuck off. Rich assholes who think that everyone needs to spend $1,000 just to be part of the "club". fuck off. If you can't help the OP with something useful relating to their needs, fuck off.

In other words, consider the needs and questions of the OP and try to help instead of being a dick to anyone who disagrees with your high holier than thou position. Stop arguing points on things a beginner doesn't have a clue about or needs to consider at their level.  Doing so just scares the beginner away and shows what a egoistic prick you are.

Beginners:
If anyone says that you "must buy this brand" or that you "must spend $XXX or you are a fool" without a reason or justification, ignore them. They are just being self important illogical pricks. They are being fan boys and fashion experts. Regard those who give facts and reasons as those who have considered their positions and have weight to their opinions.

The most important thing is to not listen to anyone who says "don't worry" when there seems to be regulations to help you avoid problems. Anyone who says "don't worry" should be ignored, unless they qualify why.

Beginners, please be patient with the "experts". We are all not experts and most definitely not experts in communication. "Experts" in any field are not necessarily experts in anything else other than their narrow field of knowledge. Experts are usually complete failures at communication and empathy. The more expert a person is, the most likely they are at being nerds and irritating to others. Sorry.

[DimitriP]

We need a monthly award for creative ways of asking "Which xyz to buy?".



 

[paulca]

As a small suggestion, only partially on topic.

Can we have a "Pride" post or a "Today I achieved" log post, so newbies can post their achievements they are proud of without having to take the embarrassment of opening a new thread and nobody replying?

It would also be nice to see beginners ideas, concepts, simple projects rather than just asking about problems.

A positive spin shall we say.

Experienced members could of course point out, "That would work even better if you...", "That probably isn't doing what you think it is..." etc.

[Brumby]

This would be the Utopian view of the Internet forum culture. It needs to be remembered that Utopia is a place that famously never existed.

It doesn't have to be Utopia, just decent - and this forum is one of the most respectful I have encountered.  There is no need to dismiss the idea of people being decent, just because it isn't perfect.

My observation is that those who conduct themselves poorly in the Beginners section do it everywhere with impunity. As much as I would like it to magically change it won't unless  action is taken by moderators.

Since the moderators don't sit up and scour every post, try and assess the community attitude to everything that is said and take preemptive action, I would ask - do you Report a member's post for infractions of site rules - or do you expect the mods to do the impossible, based on "the vibe"?

Remember, too, that just because one member might get ticked off, doesn't mean any specific post is worthy of moderation.

The assessment and any action taken are NOT up for negotiation.  Moderation action is a private concern of which the general membership has no rights to knowledge of the decisions made or action taken.  If moderators choose to share anything on that score, it is at their discretion.

The role of a Moderator is far more than just wielding a big stick and there are some people that will never understand the responsibility that goes with the job.

[Brumby]

I can only support Lightages with his statement.  I know I've made similar statements in the past and it seems they need regular re-stating.

A lot of the time it is the fallout from people not keeping in mind one, simple fact:

Remember this is the beginners forum

.... and that beginners will ask questions here.

[BrianHG]

As a small suggestion, only partially on topic.

Can we have a "Pride" post or a "Today I achieved" log post, so newbies can post their achievements they are proud of without having to take the embarrassment of opening a new thread and nobody replying?

It would also be nice to see beginners ideas, concepts, simple projects rather than just asking about problems.

A positive spin shall we say.

Experienced members could of course point out, "That would work even better if you...", "That probably isn't doing what you think it is..." etc.

Begin a topic,  "Beginners first achievements, post you projects here: No negative comments allowed!" and request from Dave to have the topic pinned at the top of the 'Beginners' forum.

Paulca, I'll let you start/initiate the thread since it was your idea....

[Rbastler]

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.


Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[BrianHG]

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.


Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

There is always a way to positively direct and aid without criticism.  If you cant find a way, let someone else do it.  We are talking about a thread for beginners to post their first successes.  They will know when it is time to post in that thread.

We are talking about beginners making their first blinking led.  First beeper.  Bidirectional software controlled motor.  Driving their first LCD character module.  First MCU thermometer software.  Simple opamp headphone amplifier.  Stuff like that.

[Brumby]

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.

Nobody is saying negative criticism should be banned or even avoided.

What IS being said here is that when a question is asked in the Beginners section that it doesn't descend into a chest beating free-for-all where the poor beginner's question gets trodden into the mud.... possibly along with the beginner.

Having said that, there are ways of presenting criticism so that it is not poisonous - and that should always be the way, in my book.

[Brumby]

Sometimes, however, it takes a bold statement for people to notice.

[Cerebus]

There is always a way to positively direct and aid without criticism.

There's criticism and there's criticising, they aren't necessary the same thing. "That could be improved by ..." is a critical comment, and is helpful criticism. "You idiot, that will be crap because you've got ... wrong" is criticising, and isn't helpful.

On a separate note: One liners pointing out faults or poor choices in a beginner's approach aren't helpful. Either take the time to actually engage helpfully or say nothing. Offering a, quite possibly valid, criticism isn't helpful unless it is accompanied by constructive advice or at least a detailed, reasoned analysis of what's been done wrong so that there's some active learning to be done.

A classic example of how not to do it would be the knee-jerk response that the "AB123 is crap" whenever a component that is on your personal shit-list gets mentioned*. In my experience people who do this mislead more often than inform, and often the "ABC123" is perfectly adequate, sometimes even particularly well-suited, for the task in hand.

*An exception is old RIVA X class capacitors, which are the spawn of the devil, and are always wrong.

[paulca]

So I created the thread.  I'm in work, when I get time I'll lookup Dave and send him a PM to make it sticky.

I think the thing to avoid, rather than criticism is "discouragement".  Even posting heavy technical deluges of details can discourage a beginner like myself.  Makes you feel like there is no point trying if you need to know all that detail and do all the calculus when the reality is it will probably work just fine with a bit of guesstimation as long as your aren't making a heart monitor for an intensive care ward.

[Monkeh]

*An exception is old RIVA X class capacitors, which are the spawn of the devil, and are always wrong.

But I got this box off them off eBay really cheap so I have to use them

[Audioguru]

The first post mentions beginners do not want to spend money on high quality parts that is wrong. When you buy cheap junk then usually you get cheap junk.
High quality name-brand electronic parts are not expensive, but they are not cheap junk.

[imidis]

KISS, best not to overwhelm peoplesarting out with info not relevant.   

[Bear207]

From the my standpoint, a very new member to this forum yet very experienced member of other professional forums, ..... this place is fantastic!

The significant majority of comments made are constructive with pure helpful intentions.
I am a part of a members only professional forum where I seldom visit any longer because there is no joy reading beyond the first few posts to any OP because the dialog devolves just as Lightages stated.  A lot of great information is shared, however, there is so much extra static and dung it is not worth the effort to sift through it all.

For a free no restrictions to entry forum, this place is great for all levels of experience.  The moderators must be doing a good job for I have not seen any examples of inappropriate behavior.  Kodos

As for being discouraged by comments, I agree we must all be careful and try to consider how our words are received.  So many different cultures and mores to consider.  It just boils down to good intentions and respect.

Although I am enjoying reading and studying for hours...it is not fostering domestic tranquility.   Time for me to see things from another point of view.  ha-ha  Regards.

[Rick Law]

I can only support Lightages with his statement.  I know I've made similar statements in the past and it seems they need regular re-stating.

A lot of the time it is the fallout from people not keeping in mind one, simple fact:

Remember this is the beginners forum

.... and that beginners will ask questions here.

I also strongly support Lightages' statement.

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.
...

Now if I may make a (hopefully constructive) suggestion: If we can "clean up" our languages here, we can make this even more inviting to beginners and others.

On at least a couple of occasions, I was going to suggest to some young kid with electronic interest to check this forum out, but I ended up not making such recommendation: too many F-bombs and the likes.  I just didn't want to have to explain to the mother of the kid why I introduced her kid to a forum with languages that in the old days would cause the kid to be punished by having his/her mouth wash with soap.

Lightages, as you have used the F-Bomb in the OP, please do not consider this a criticism of you and please don't feel offended.  As I have seen many of your posts, I have much respect of your skill and your abilities.  However, I do want to share my thoughts on why I am reluctant to recommend this forum to younger kids with electronics interest I've encountered.

I'm old school...  may be too old school, but I am sure there are others like me who would be reluctant to expose their kids to such language.

[Jwillis]

*An exception is old RIVA X class capacitors, which are the spawn of the devil, and are always wrong.

But I got this box off them off eBay really cheap so I have to use them

 
You  can always use them from 4th of July fire crackers!    Just trying to lighten the mood.

[Lightages]

Rick Law:

While I understand your intent, and even have sympathy for your position I must say I disagree. Censorship is not going to work, never mind not protect anyone from seeing or hearing words in real life. In some countries some words mean nothing but in others they are held to be extremely offensive, even to the point of people being killed.

If we are to try and say nothing offensive to anyone at anytime, communication comes to an end. You can't be afraid to say what is on your mind even if it risks offending someone else. What words do we ban: shit, fanny, baldy, moron? Where will it end?

[Brumby]

I agree on the avoidance of censorship - but at the same time, I would prefer people avoid using words that can cause concern to others.

Yes, people will hear these words in other places - but those places carry with them a certain reputation or expectation from the people that frequent them.  I would rather that NOT be the case here.  As I see it, this is the fundamental concern Rick Law has expressed.

It has been my observation that the use of some words - such as the F-bomb - is primarily used to convey a more intense emotion than normal for the purpose of making a strong point ... and to do it in four letters.  It has also been my observation that these can be replaced with other words or phrases that still convey the same meaning and, with some thought, the same intensity.

I would simply encourage people to consider alternative phrases, use highlighting such as bold and underline to add emphasis ... but, in the end, it is up to each individual.

PS SMF has a facility which can intervene here - but I would not suggest it for this forum.

[Lightages]

OK, word police, make a list of words that everyone on the Earth must avoid using on this forum. Make sure your list is totally comprehensive so that nobody could ever take offense or misconstrue the meaning. Make sure that the meaning of the word you use is not different everywhere else in the world. From my experience on how different cultures can take great offense I will start the list; milk, fanny, moron, fag, fastidious, bitch, liberal, virgin, oriental, dog, mankind, sissy, crap.....

I am sure I can come up with another 100 easily. Remember if you use any of the words I have listed, you are being intentionally offensive and deserve to have your account suspended.

[Brumby]

Easy....

All I am suggesting is that if you can use alternatives, then think about it.

[tautech]

OK, word police, make a list of words that everyone on the Earth must avoid using on this forum. Make sure your list is totally comprehensive so that nobody could ever take offense or misconstrue the meaning. Make sure that the meaning of the word you use is not different everywhere else in the world. From my experience on how different cultures can take great offense I will start the list; milk, fanny, moron, fag, fastidious, bitch, liberal, virgin, oriental, dog, mankind, sissy, crap.....

I am sure I can come up with another 100 easily. Remember if you use any of the words I have listed, you are being intentionally offensive and deserve to have your account suspended.

FFS Lightages, what's got under you skin ? 

[Mp3]

I have been on hundreds of forums before this one and any forum has the problem of becoming an echo chamber. But that is just the nature of forums. I have been shocked at how kind and helpful everyone has been in my few postings on the Beginners forum here. I can think of dozens of other boards where the same question would have turned into 2 pages of memes and name calling and no help.

If there are people who keep getting in trouble they could get put on posting probation for a couple days or something so they can visit but not post until they're off posting probation.

[Lightages]

FFS Lightages, what's got under you skin ? 

Nothing. I have just seen so many otherwise intelligent people brought to tears over words. Seriously, it is impossible to not offend somebody somewhere. In some places you get beheaded for saying a wrong word. People take offense, and it is not anybody's right to not be offended.

I used the words I did because I was upset and wanted to express my complete disgust at how people act like assholes and get into pissing contests that swamp the original OP's question with childish behavior and pointless bickering. Words have uses. If I want to express myself I choose the words that fit my feelings. To tell me that I am not allowed to use a certain words that fit my feelings is the same as censorship. That is what is under my skin.

[mtdoc]

OK, word police, make a list of words that everyone on the Earth must avoid using on this forum.

Here’s the original “starter set” 

7 words

[Jwillis]

Although I believe this to true and just ,keeping a generally mild mannered civil tongue is important in a public forum.I agree that some people can be frustrating to deal with but a discussion can be done without excessively harsh language .
 I don't mind criticism as long as it is presented with explanations and solutions.I'm a beginner again ,after years of putting it aside, in the field of electronics.No I don't have the education,I'm having to relearn math I've forgotten years ago.But I do try.I don't expect to get a university degree here but I do like a challenge .I t may seem that something might be over my head or not investigating relevant information is not to annoy people.It's simply because I just don't know .If I make a mistake and blow something up I'll find out why eventually. It all apart of the learning experience.
There are some really smart people here who have made this field a career and I admire that. But understand ,most of us don't have access to many devices and tools you may have become used to .Purchasing these things is just not possible for many of us because of either budget restraints or availability. Most of the stuff I have is old ,used and may not be a s accurate as something new .But its good enough for my needs.I'm don't expect to launch someone into space or develop the next ground breaking invention . If I have something to share in information , advice or experience it's not to make myself look good .It's because I enjoy electronics.

[Electro Detective]

Even at heated debates mixed with product fan boy rituals, it's a quiet clean informative lake here compared to the Facebook drivel cesspool, we should be thankful 

Besides, the beginners should be aware (and willing) they are diving in deep here amongst the big boys with big toys.


I wouldn't complain as a newb if they go at it, discussing the merits of cheap and out of reach priced gear

How can you not get something out of that, even if the original post has swayed off topic for a page or two?

Beginners are here to learn something, I say throw them in the pool fully dressed and damn the torpedos!   


Beginners and Newbs: am I on the money or what?!! 

[Hextejas]

OK Lightaged, I'm reporting you. You said MILK !!!

Just teasing I hope you know.

And being the noobiest of the noobs, this forum has been the best so far.
And I say fork or some form there of. Like go fork yourself.

And what the heck does " And Bob's your uncle " mean ?
I've heard the dude in the videos say that a few times. Is that Dave ?

[Brumby]

And what the heck does " And Bob's your uncle " mean ?

It basically means "everything is good".  In electronics terms it means everything is sorted and things will work.

You can Google the phrase for more insights.

[Cerebus]

Has this thread gone a bit  off the rails into the territory of reductio ad absurdum? 

That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means. Reductio ad absurdum is where you prove or disprove a proposition by demonstrating that it can be reduced to an absurd conclusion. e.g. "There is no smallest positive rational number, because if there were, then it could be divided by two to get a smaller one."

I'm not offended by the F-word or any words that readily spring to mind. Rather than define a list of offensive words I would just prefer the F-word not be used in the beginners section. It is not because there may be children or highly sensitive souls present. It is because I think replies that use the F-word are never as helpful as those where the writer has thoughtfully crafted an answer that avoids it.

So what offends me is the writer did not think the forum audience worthy of choosing to avoid using it. I think less of them for it.

Look at all the forum members who post and maintain a moderate respectful tone and be guided by their example. As a guide I would say using the F-word once every 5000 posts would be reasonable. Or not at all.

I think it's a bit rich calling for a moderate respectful tone immediately after posting a remark that indicates the exact opposite of respect: "I think less of them for it."

[mikerj]

I used the words I did because I was upset and wanted to express my complete disgust at how people act like assholes and get into pissing contests that swamp the original OP's question with childish behavior and pointless bickering.

As much as I agree with your sentiment, acting like an asshole yourself isn't going to bring about a solution, and means you are far less likely to be taken seriously.  Bad language rarely, if ever, reinforces a point and it certainly doesn't help to make the forum a nicer, friendlier place.

[CatalinaWOW]

My grandfather, a crusty, tattooed ex-soldier, fireman and policeman, always told me that profanity was the crutch of the verbally crippled.  Without totally agreeing with him I think there is a lot of truth in his comment.  Whenever I am tempted to use profanity it is a warning to me that I might be being overly emotional, or too lazy to precisely express my opinion.

[paulca]

My grandfather, a crusty, tattooed ex-soldier, fireman and policeman, always told me that profanity was the crutch of the verbally crippled.  Without totally agreeing with him I think there is a lot of truth in his comment.  Whenever I am tempted to use profanity it is a warning to me that I might be being overly emotional, or too lazy to precisely express my opinion.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

[Cerebus]

My grandfather, a crusty, tattooed ex-soldier, fireman and policeman, always told me that profanity was the crutch of the verbally crippled.

As is often the case with folk wisdom, that turns out not to be true. Swearing tends to correlate with a broader vocabulary and with higher intelligence - some details here but a Google search for "Swearing and intelligence" will yield a host of sources.

Complaints about swearing/profanity tend to act as a marker of perceived social or moral superiority. The most frequent swearers tend, in my experience, to be at one of the two extreme ends of the social scale - either working class or very upper class - cf "swearing like a trooper" and "swearing like a lord". The people in the middle like to think they are both socially and morally superior to the former, and morally superior to the latter. So concern about swearing is just a old form of "virtue signalling" but has no merit as an actual indicator of moral, social or intellectual superiority.

You can have as broad a vocabulary as possible, as much power of self-expression as you like, as great rhetorical powers as Winston Churchill, but at the end of the day nothing else in English has the expressive power that is possessed by the single word "Shit!".

[StillTrying]

Everyone is a beginner in some/many subjects.

Meanwhile, where does an expert post a beginners question.

[Cerebus]

Has this thread gone a bit  off the rails into the territory of reductio ad absurdum? 

That phrase doesn't mean what you think it means. Reductio ad absurdum is where you prove or disprove a proposition by demonstrating that it can be reduced to an absurd conclusion. e.g. "There is no smallest positive rational number, because if there were, then it could be divided by two to get a smaller one."

It was a pun. I am well aware of the mathematical proof technique. The thread has, as often happens, diminishes into an argument about absurdly small details of minute tangential relevance. The proof technique reveals a logical inconsistency, but I use it to highlight logical inconsistencies that do nothing to improve understanding.

A pun, by its very nature, is supposed to be humorous. "... I use it to highlight logical inconsistencies that do nothing to improve understanding" - can you just point out where in your original message you did that, or is that explanation just sophistry? If you didn't know what it really meant, no one will think less of you - unless you try to cover that up by bluffing your way out.

I think it's a bit rich calling for a moderate respectful tone immediately after posting a remark that indicates the exact opposite of respect: "I think less of them for it."

Aren't you confusing cause and effect? There is a difference between showing respect and having respect. It follows from the word respect being both a verb and a noun.

A respectful tone is one that doesn't stoop to insult, which you were parlously close to, if not already at. As I say, a bit rich, and attempting to recover by further sophistry doesn't exactly cover you in glory.

[Cerebus]

Everyone is a beginner in some/many subjects.

The older I get the more aware I become of my astounding ignorance. Amazing really, because when I was 16 I knew exactly how to fix everything that was wrong with the world.

[Alex Eisenhut]

OK, word police, make a list of words that everyone on the Earth must avoid using on this forum. Remember if you use any of the words I have listed, you are being intentionally offensive and deserve to have your account suspended.

Apostrophe plurals and misuse of it's should be on there... 

[paulca]

Everyone is a beginner in some/many subjects.

The older I get the more aware I become of my astounding ignorance. Amazing really, because when I was 16 I knew exactly how to fix everything that was wrong with the world.

[Lightages]

It is quite ironic that this thread has devolved into the exact kind of off topic mess that always happens. What was the message in the OP?

Don't go off the rails and argue points not asked in the original post so as to no scare away beginners.

What has happened?

The thread has devolved into a pissing contest over the use of a couple of words

 

[rsjsouza]

I agree with Lightages' OP, profanity and all, which brings the exact amount of repulsion when I see such beginners threads unfold this way (sometimes even with 100% opinion-based threads).

After all, the chest thumpers that believe are right and never let go in their attempt to convince others how wrong they are in their opinion or inexperience is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion.

You keep doing you, Lightages!

[DimitriP]

The thread has devolved into a pissing contest over the use of a couple of words

Your surprize, surprizes me
Not everyone can ( or wants or even -if I may say that- should - )  hold hands and sing songs by the campfire.

 

[rhb]

It seems to me that we are in danger of entering snowflake territory where everyone is supposed to agree with everything anyone else says. That is hardly healthy.  It has gotten the USA into endless wars because no one was willing to disagree until it was too late.

The fact of the matter is this is one of the best discussion groups since early Usenet.  I spent much of my career working in oil company R&D.  Most of the people I know well have PhDs from Stanford and similar schools.  I can't think of one who can come close to the electronics skills and experience of the people on this forum.

From my perspective this thread looks as if it were spawned by my disagreement with rstofer about "hacking" Rigol scopes.  Perhaps you have some other dispute I failed to notice in mind.  I don't recall any profanity in that thread.  While gentleman do not use profanity, the fact of the matter is we have profanity embedded in a standard emoticon in the reply dialog.

The members of this forum take considerable time to provide very high quality advice to any and all on a wide range of matters.  Probably the best exemplar is the thread on building a mass spectrometer which garnered a reply from someone who had built not one, but two!   One was a low budget academic build and the other was a big budget commercial build.

 I personally question whether someone who finds this forum too uncomfortable to participate would amount to anything.  Doubtless there is the odd duck or two, but I  think such people are quite rare.

[T3sl4co1l]

It is quite ironic that this thread has devolved into the exact kind of off topic mess that always happens. What was the message in the OP?

Don't go off the rails and argue points not asked in the original post so as to no scare away beginners.

What has happened?

The thread has devolved into a pissing contest over the use of a couple of words

 

>Trollbaiter posts bait
>Trolls take bait
>Trollbaiter complains that trolls took bait

Whether or not that was your intention, that is precisely the structure observed here.  What were you expecting?  That people just wake up and become reasonable?

I was raised back in the dark depths of the internet where trolls roamed freely; few, even then, took to heart the correct method of dealing with trolls.  It seems like even fewer do so today, though.

A better sticky post would be to tell newbies how to deal with trolls; but, newbies being newbies, and even moreso humans being humans, it would not materially affect the SNR of the content here.  It might prove a valuable lesson for the few that heed its call, but most would not.

Tim

[vk6zgo]

Frankly, I think beginners should run away, with their dumb LTspice simulations of circuits which have no hope of working in the real world, their "Arduinos", their mad propensity to test their Oscilloscopes by hanging them across the nearest Mains socket, their total lack of knowledge of basics, & so much more.....

I made a suggestion some years back that Dave produce a  segment called "Learn some Basics.....Please!"
Well, the reaction was mostly as if I was "The Grinch that stole Christmas"!
Apparently we weren't supposed to injure their delicate little psyches!

As to using the "F word", I don't use it online or in any written form.
In everyday speech, I drop the odd one, but overuse always reminds me of when I was a stupid teenager, where our every second f----ing word was  the "F word".

Because of this, it always smacks of immaturity, or if a serious context, of being contrived to show the user is "down to earth".

I now seem to have strayed a bit, so back to the original  topic.
Beginners should "get off my lawn!", too! 

[Electro Detective]

Here's a possible new thread born by this one!   

Designing a Virtual -Troll Meter-      

1, Virtual analogue display with digital readout

2. Needle at null centre to indicate positive and negative values.

3. Auto and Manual Range Sensitivity with Fast Peak / Min-Max indication for capturing elusive transients

5. Thermocouple input to indicate heating and cooling debate levels

6. Logging with real time Trend graph, and CHEAP (maybe that should be 1. )


FWIW I doubt serious trolls would leave their day job at Facebook to fester here

They'll take one look at the starting gate > www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php  and do a runner back to Facebook

[tautech]

Here's a possible new thread born by this one!   

Designing a Virtual -Troll Meter-      

I've had to activate this one on odd occasions.



Feel free to use it !

[Brumby]

Frankly, I think beginners should run away, with their dumb LTspice simulations of circuits which have no hope of working in the real world, their "Arduinos", their mad propensity to test their Oscilloscopes by hanging them across the nearest Mains socket, their total lack of knowledge of basics, & so much more.....

I made a suggestion some years back that Dave produce a  segment called "Learn some Basics.....Please!"
Well, the reaction was mostly as if I was "The Grinch that stole Christmas"!
Apparently we weren't supposed to injure their delicate little psyches!

I truly hope you are not serious.

[T3sl4co1l]

I certainly don't agree that the OP was trolling.

Nice of you to trim the very next line;

Whether or not that was your intention, that is precisely the structure observed here.

I was not making an accusation, I was observing a structural isomorphism.

(Unless your deliberate omission is in fact a troll, in which case, you win this round. )

A key part of trolling is a deliberate intention to provoke an inflamed debate and to do it without regard for whether one believes in the point made. There can be an arbitrary choice of either side of the debate. Whichever side is likely to gain most effect will be preferred.

I'm using a more general criteria here, not requiring intent.  The effect may occur, regardless of intent, and a poster's true intent is unknowable, anyway -- so, it doesn't make a very useful criteria, does it? So I discarded it.

I'm writing here, in an analytical and introspective manner, in the overall hopes that a few posters (perhaps including the OP) pick up on it, and develop a more disinterested perspective with their interactions.

And that, my friends, is the key.  If a troll can't get under your skin and make it personal to you, they cannot succeed.  They may flail wildly, but the harder you ignore them, the weaker they become.

The true winner of a troll argument is the one who does not reply.

Tim

[Lightages]

 

[T3sl4co1l]

Cheers mate 

Tim

[vk6zgo]

Frankly, I think beginners should run away, with their dumb LTspice simulations of circuits which have no hope of working in the real world, their "Arduinos", their mad propensity to test their Oscilloscopes by hanging them across the nearest Mains socket, their total lack of knowledge of basics, & so much more.....

I made a suggestion some years back that Dave produce a  segment called "Learn some Basics.....Please!"
Well, the reaction was mostly as if I was "The Grinch that stole Christmas"!
Apparently we weren't supposed to injure their delicate little psyches!

I truly hope you are not serious.

Only a little bit.

Of course, we should help beginners, but it is a two way street.
If they are going to approach people who have substantial Electronics knowledge, it seems not too much to ask that they get some idea of the field they are attempting to enter.

My "pet hate" is those people who attempt projects in the RF field without any knowledge of the various design constraints inherent in it.

Some "fall in love" with general purpose Op Amps, & try to produce a "Radio Receiver"by tacking a tuned circuit on the input or output of the device.
This usually results in either a circuit which does not receive, or alternatively, oscillates its head off.

Most avoid the latter result because they designed a tuned circuit which is "resonant", but exhibits such abysmal "Q" that the "receiver" lacks both selectivity & sensitivity.
The resonance formula is a "trap for young players", in that many LC combinations will satisfy it, but only some have values of reactance which allow the circuit to show the classic  "peak" at resonance.

Trying to explain why their favourite website's beaut design is not workable becomes an exercise in frustration.

Then there are those who build VHF circuits on "breadboards", &,wonder why they don't workii

[paulca]

As to using the "F word", I don't use it online or in any written form.
In everyday speech, I drop the odd one, but overuse always reminds me of when I was a stupid teenager, where our every second f----ing word was  the "F word".

Uses the F word while explaining he doesn't use the F word, but thinly veils it with hyphens as if people won't figure it out.  If you going to swear have some fucking balls about it

On newbies who have no regard for their own safety and blow stuff and/or themselves up, I say let them at it.  There are too many people in the world, every time an idiot pops themselves the world, statistically speaking, gets smarter.

[vk6zgo]

As to using the "F word", I don't use it online or in any written form.
In everyday speech, I drop the odd one, but overuse always reminds me of when I was a stupid teenager, where our every second f----ing word was  the "F word".

Uses the F word while explaining he doesn't use the F word, but thinly veils it with hyphens as if people won't figure it out.  If you going to swear have some fucking balls about it

My comment was meant to be humorous, just as your reply is.

On newbies who have no regard for their own safety and blow stuff and/or themselves up, I say let them at it.  There are too many people in the world, every time an idiot pops themselves the world, statistically speaking, gets smarter.

They aren't the ones that concern me most, it is the equally dumb, but lucky survivors that get up my nose!

[Brumby]

My "pet hate" is those people who attempt projects in the RF field without any knowledge of the various design constraints inherent in it.

Yeah .... well ... RF is one of those areas that attracts great interest - but one that demands knowledge which exceeds the grasp of many mere mortals, let alone beginners.

While some beginners may have had some introductory instruction in electricity, others may have educated themselves from nowhere else than the internet (shudder).  They will have had no mentor to whom they could put their dumb questions ... so they will try as best they can.

Let's face it .... with some of the questions we see about connecting LEDs - is it no wonder there are some really bizarre questions brought in the RF field?  While it may be frustrating to someone who knows enough to build a 200W linear amp for 2m, these beginners are at least making an effort.  RF is not easy and beginners are certainly going to be babes in the woods and deer in the headlights at the same time.

If anything, I think beginners in RF need all the breaks and all the help they can get.

[rsjsouza]

My "pet hate" is those people who attempt projects in the RF field without any knowledge of the various design constraints inherent in it.

Yeah .... well ... RF is one of those areas that attracts great interest - but one that demands knowledge which exceeds the grasp of many mere mortals, let alone beginners.

While some beginners may have had some introductory instruction in electricity, others may have educated themselves from nowhere else than the internet (shudder).  They will have had no mentor to whom they could put their dumb questions ... so they will try as best they can.

Let's face it .... with some of the questions we see about connecting LEDs - is it no wonder there are some really bizarre questions brought in the RF field?  While it may be frustrating to someone who knows enough to build a 200W linear amp for 2m, these beginners at least making an effort.  RF is not easy and beginners are certainly going to be babes in the woods and deer in the headlights at the same time.

If anything, I think beginners in RF need all the breaks and all the help they can get.

Brumby is absolutely right; I follow some of your discussions and found a bit ironic that you were once most probably also a beginner titter-tattering on RF, which was pretty much 50% of the interesting things one could do in electronics as a hobby in the times of vaccuum tubes and early solid state electronics (the other was audio amplifiers). Despite I came a lot later than that era (although still used vaccuum tubes at large), I was very interested in RF in my beginnings and did a lot of stupid mistakes by simple experimentation.

Hopefully you did not let this frustration go unless under extreme circumstances (such as when the person really can't listen or make an effort to learn from the replies, which I totally agree with you). If the opposite, that is a textbook example of what Lightages is referring.

[paulca]

Playing with RF is a good way to have the police at the door in the UK.

A friend of a friend ran a music studio.  There were having issues with the wireless guitar senders.  They opened them up and hacked them to produce significantly more output.

A week later the army called to the studio and demanded they shut off whatever it was they were using as it was causing interference on their microwave links for many miles around.  They used it as a triangulation exercise to hunt them down.

Or it could be an urban legend pub story...

[GreyWoolfe]

You can have as broad a vocabulary as possible, as much power of self-expression as you like, as great rhetorical powers as Winston Churchill, but at the end of the day nothing else in English has the expressive power that is possessed by the single word "Shit!".

AMEN, brother!  As a Jersey Boy (from New Jersey for those who do not know)  This is absolutely a way of life.  I have used the above, along with other single words like F**k, dammit, sonovab**ch and others

[paulca]

It's all relative.  When someone who never swears, suddenly swears it has a much greater impact.

Inversely someone who swear all the time who swears, you tend to just filter them out.


Oh yes... sorry... Bollox.

[Eosander]

I made a post, hoping to get some support and/or constructive critisism if there were any errors in my plans.
My thread ended up in a discussion wether pdf-files were safe or not...
I won't generalise, and say all people are unhelpful though.

[Electro Detective]

I made a post, hoping to get some support and/or constructive critisism if there were any errors in my plans.

My thread ended up in a discussion wether pdf-files were safe or not...

I won't generalise, and say all people are unhelpful though.

Please supply a link to that post,

it would be interesting to see if the initial request for support and/or constructive criticism were satisfied 

before the thread meandered to PDF security   

[Brumby]

Please supply a link to that post,

Eosander only has 6 posts - it wasn't hard to find:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/circuit-and-pcb-design/msg1423259/#msg1423259

At the time I write this, there are only 8 replies.  The original question hasn't been answered and the PDF safety discussion is in its early days.  Ratio of on-topic content to the whole thread is around 50%.

In the history of hijacking, this isn't a prizewinner yet, but it has the potential to be one if people don't take it out the PDF discussion to its own thread.

[Brumby]

Practice what you preach .... I just started such a thread.

Yes, it's in the Beginners section when General Chat was probably more appropriate - but I didn't want to take it too far away from the original source, in case it was missed.

[Rick Law]

Rick Law:

While I understand your intent, and even have sympathy for your position I must say I disagree. Censorship is not going to work, never mind not protect anyone from seeing or hearing words in real life. In some countries some words mean nothing but in others they are held to be extremely offensive, even to the point of people being killed.

If we are to try and say nothing offensive to anyone at anytime, communication comes to an end. You can't be afraid to say what is on your mind even if it risks offending someone else. What words do we ban: shit, fanny, baldy, moron? Where will it end?

Lightages, it was perhaps not a good idea for me to call you out by name.  I should spend a few bits of storage explaining why I did so.

Since I was about to discuss not using f-bomb in a post where you just used the f-bomb, I thought it was best to be direct -- as oppose to saying it indirectly like "someone used f-bomb right here and it is not good".  Saying it in an indirect/round-about way may have the appearance of a "sneak attack" and such appearance was the last thing I wanted.  So, after careful consideration, I decided to just cite it as I did.  If you were offended to any degree, I apologize.

I hope you did noticed that I referenced you in a very respectful manner in that earlier reply, as it was my intend to be very respectful and non-accusational.

Now the context of why talking "f-bomb" matters in "inviting beginners"...

Beginners is more likely to be young.  The few times I ran into EE-interested beginners were kids - it was when I volunteered to help supervise/mentor a high school robotics team.  Each time when I was about to suggest "check this forum out", I held back.  I can just imagine the look of the Principal's face had I pointed a kid to a thread where f-bomb is dotted here and there with regular frequency.  If I feel that way, most teachers probably would as well.

Those kids probably swear a lot more than you or I do.  So, "triggering" them is I believe the least of the worry.  It is my believe that it is good to maintain certain level of decorum.  If we want this to be inviting to beginners, a good decorum in conducting the discussion is beneficial to the course.

This is of course not a forum designed to teach kids and probably never will be.  But it is such a lost when a valuable asset such as this forum cannot be shared with kids who would be interested in exactly the knowledge and experience this forum possesses.

[CatalinaWOW]

My grandfather, a crusty, tattooed ex-soldier, fireman and policeman, always told me that profanity was the crutch of the verbally crippled.

As is often the case with folk wisdom, that turns out not to be true. Swearing tends to correlate with a broader vocabulary and with higher intelligence - some details here but a Google search for "Swearing and intelligence" will yield a host of sources.

Complaints about swearing/profanity tend to act as a marker of perceived social or moral superiority. The most frequent swearers tend, in my experience, to be at one of the two extreme ends of the social scale - either working class or very upper class - cf "swearing like a trooper" and "swearing like a lord". The people in the middle like to think they are both socially and morally superior to the former, and morally superior to the latter. So concern about swearing is just a old form of "virtue signalling" but has no merit as an actual indicator of moral, social or intellectual superiority.

You can have as broad a vocabulary as possible, as much power of self-expression as you like, as great rhetorical powers as Winston Churchill, but at the end of the day nothing else in English has the expressive power that is possessed by the single word "Shit!".

I am not sure any of this literature contradicts the folk wisdom.  Many "cripples" have the equipment to perform a given task, but don't use it for whatever reason.  The fact that those who swear more frequently tend to have higher intelligence may indicate that they disdain the mores of the common herd, not a positive attribute.  The comments about improved performance and pain resistance after swearing implies that there is a unique impact of these words on our systems.  An impact that lessons our pain response and has a similar impact on performance to adrenaline would indicate that these words are not in the same family as the rest of vocabulary. 

I don't disagree that often complaints about swearing are social comments.  As swearing also is often a social comment.

I swear.  Probably fit quite nicely in the profiles mentioned.  But I still think it is best used in small quantities.  Reserved for the times you smash your finger with a hammer, or accidentally grab the tip of the soldering iron.  When you are in a group that is comfortable with the use of this language.  Or the times when you don't care to show any nuance in your displeasure and don't care who you antagonize, where that single word shit does serve well. 

I came to this attitude when surrounded by folks who dramatically overused vulgarities.  Never a paragraph without them.  Frequently not a sentence.  And often a single word or word pair.  It didn't improve communication, in spite of the admittedly high intelligence of quite a few of those involved.   

I also try not to swear in public forums.  More people are likely to be offended by swearing than by the lack of it, so it is just courtesy.  I also don't call anyone specifically out for swearing.  That is also courtesy.  My comments here are not directed at any specific individual.  If anyone is offended by a call for less rather than more swearing I will just have to live with offending them.

[ahbushnell]

This happens so many times. Beginners come here asking questions and the thread devolves into dick waving, arguing, and attacks that have nothing to do with the original question.

Please accept my apologies for this. There are many passionate people here who want to share their knowledge. Sometimes this gets in the way of helping and your original concern might get buried in petty bickering between the "experts" who would rather sword fight  with other "experts".  Ignore the noise.

To the "experts". STFU. Remember this is the beginners forum, not the bitch and whine forum. You are here to help the beginners with some advice. It is not the time bitch and argue with everyone who doesn't agree with you. If you think that the time for you to exercise your superiority over others is to debate into oblivion something the OP never asked is now, fuck off. Go start your own thread and argue there. Help the beginner with their original question and stop being a diva or go away. If you aren't answering the OP's question then you are being an asshole. Go start your own war somewhere else and stop scaring away beginners.

Fanboys of brands, fuck off. Rich assholes who think that everyone needs to spend $1,000 just to be part of the "club". fuck off. If you can't help the OP with something useful relating to their needs, fuck off.

In other words, consider the needs and questions of the OP and try to help instead of being a dick to anyone who disagrees with your high holier than thou position. Stop arguing points on things a beginner doesn't have a clue about or needs to consider at their level.  Doing so just scares the beginner away and shows what a egoistic prick you are.

Beginners:
If anyone says that you "must buy this brand" or that you "must spend $XXX or you are a fool" without a reason or justification, ignore them. They are just being self important illogical pricks. They are being fan boys and fashion experts. Regard those who give facts and reasons as those who have considered their positions and have weight to their opinions.

The most important thing is to not listen to anyone who says "don't worry" when there seems to be regulations to help you avoid problems. Anyone who says "don't worry" should be ignored, unless they qualify why.

Beginners, please be patient with the "experts". We are all not experts and most definitely not experts in communication. "Experts" in any field are not necessarily experts in anything else other than their narrow field of knowledge. Experts are usually complete failures at communication and empathy. The more expert a person is, the most likely they are at being nerds and irritating to others. Sorry.

Your use of "fuckoff" seems to be the same thing your complaining about.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Mr. Scram]

This thread seems to be a prima example of threads where the self proclaimed big boys fight. Beginners just watch and slowly back away.

[medical-nerd]

Since I have a beginners interest in rf, arduinos and simulations, I started to back away a few posts ago.

Cheers

[BBBbbb]

I really fail to see the point of this thread (or the content that populated it)

Regardless of this forum, I find it that if you put enough effort into googling your problem and reading up on it, and then come to a community and ask, nobody will go hard on you.
Somebody is giving away his knowledge for free and that should be also respected.

Personally I haven't noticed any bulling on the forum towards new people (some members going at each other, but not significantly). People are generally politically correct, patient and sensitive, and I guess it has to do with the type of the community here.
   

[Brumby]

Your use of "fuckoff" seems to be the same thing your complaining about.

It's not.  Not at all.

There are two issues bouncing around this thread:  The hijacking of beginner topics, where the OP's question gets steamrolled into the dust - and - the language used here.

This thread was created to try and get the "steamrollers" to realise what is happening and pull their head in.  The "language" debate came about because of the phrase used.

While I may prefer that such a phrase be replaced by something less offensive, I will not stand on my high horse about that in this context.  I completely understand why it was used.  Lightages' point is far more important.  It is one I have raised myself on occasion - and I completely understand the frustration behind the intensity of the post.

[Brumby]

I really fail to see the point of this thread (or the content that populated it)

It's really contained in the original post.

Regardless of this forum, I find it that if you put enough effort into googling your problem and reading up on it, and then come to a community and ask, nobody will go hard on you.
Somebody is giving away his knowledge for free and that should be also respected.

That is what will usually happen here, too.

Personally I haven't noticed any bulling on the forum towards new people (some members going at each other, but not significantly). People are generally politically correct, patient and sensitive, and I guess it has to do with the type of the community here.

Sometimes people with conflicting opinion, a need to feel important, agendas of their own - or just forget that they are in the Beginners area - start trampling all over the thread and the real subject of the thread gets lost - to the dismay of the OP and the frustration of those who were trying to help.

Mostly, this place is great.  When you see the stuff that goes on in other places ... it is absolutely brilliant.  It's just that, on occasion, some poor beginner gets steamrolled.

[Brumby]

Since I have a beginners interest in rf, arduinos and simulations, I started to back away a few posts ago.

Cheers

Don't let that dissuade you from asking questions or contributing in any way.  RF is not easy - but it can be fascinating and rewarding.  If it interests you, I encourage you to pursue the subject.  There are a lot of members here and you are bound guaranteed to encounter different personalities, experience ... and communication skills.  Be prepared for that and you will do well.

Arduino will get a mixed reception - basically because it is one corner of the expansive microprocessor/microcontroller arena.  It is, IMHO, a brilliant platform to get started with - and depending on your aspirations, you may spend your time productively in this area - or delve into the deeper mysteries of the chips, the programming and the interfaces to the world.  You will find people here that have favourite platforms and strong opinions.  Brace yourself and you will survive.   

Simulation is definitely a good subject these days.  It's worth getting to know what's around and what the strengths and weaknesses are.

Bottom line - don't be gun shy ... but be prepared to duck every now and then.   

[BBBbbb]

I really fail to see the point of this thread (or the content that populated it)

It's really contained in the original post.

Actually I don't see that anything OP wrote will actually help, it just led to several pages of whatever (don't know how to describe it)

Regardless of this forum, I find it that if you put enough effort into googling your problem and reading up on it, and then come to a community and ask, nobody will go hard on you.
Somebody is giving away his knowledge for free and that should be also respected.

That is what will usually happen here, too.

What I wanted to say is that although you may not know something, some basic manners should be there, on your part, if you're asking for help. Don't just come with an attitude 'solve it for me' or 'give me'. Such attitude deserves a proper response.

Honestly, apart from experienced members going at each other occasionally, I haven't noticed any overreactions towards the rookies. Maybe there have been, but nothing that caught my attention.
And what little hostile behavior I found on the board was usually met with a strong negative reactions from other members.

This might be as good as it gets, not sure there's room for improvement, at least not considering we're just human and this is a public forum with people from all over...

[vk6zgo]

Since I have a beginners interest in rf, arduinos and simulations, I started to back away a few posts ago.

Cheers

Beginner's ( & other's) attitudes to RF work seem to be one of the following:-

"I'm really clever, I'll download a simple circuit from the 'Net, feed it some square waves from my Arduino, & be the king of the Airwaves!"
"Waddya mean it won't work!-----It simulates OK on LTspice!"

Or:-
"I want to build a Radio receiver, so I want to know all about Maxwell's equations to do so------spend the next three days teaching me something I won't understand or need for a simple project!"

Or:-
"RF-----Aiiieeee!  Black Magic!"

The truth is, RF isn't that hard, & many people have made perfectly functional RF devices without knowing calculus, Maxwell's equations, or having 40 years experience, whilst others with two out of three of those made massive stuff ups.
Be very selective in what you read about RF (or anything for that matter) on the Internet, as there is a lot of  duck poo out there.

Simulations---I don't like LT spice, because it lends itself to schematics with weird layouts, doesn't allow for parasitic capacitance & inductance, & as default shows all signal sources as DC generators.(complete with the two slanted lines indicating a commutator).
This is exactly the opposite to normal practice, where the default is a symbol without the " commutator", with labelling to say if it is AC or DC.

Simulations are a trap for beginners, as they stifle the imagination.
We didn't have them & could visualise circuit operation without being hand fed.

[Brumby]

While I do appreciate what you are saying, those who have not made any real effort and expect to be hand held, do get some direct feedback - and so they should - but it doesn't have to be blunt (unless they need that level of frankness to get the message).  It would be nice to be able to guide them into reasonableness ... but that isn't always possible - especially for the odd snowflake that we see.

Certainly, practical RF doesn't need all the fundamentals, first principles and theory - but it does require more appreciation of the electromagnetic processes than an Arduino and measuring an on/off signal for an LED is a lot easier than a 10MHz carrier.

As for this comment:

Be very selective in what you read about RF (or anything for that matter) on the Internet, as there is a lot of  duck poo out there.

... if they don't know how to be selective - who's going to show them?


Certainly, in this day and age of sophisticated module solutions for $5 from China, a lot of the appreciation for what goes into them is lost.  When beginners come here, we should try (and I know this can be hard in some cases) to lift the veil of obfuscation.

[Brumby]

I really fail to see the point of this thread (or the content that populated it)

It's really contained in the original post.

Actually I don't see that anything OP wrote will actually help, it just led to several pages of whatever (don't know how to describe it)

Regardless of this forum, I find it that if you put enough effort into googling your problem and reading up on it, and then come to a community and ask, nobody will go hard on you.
Somebody is giving away his knowledge for free and that should be also respected.

That is what will usually happen here, too.

What I wanted to say is that although you may not know something, some basic manners should be there, on your part, if you're asking for help. Don't just come with an attitude 'solve it for me' or 'give me'. Such attitude deserves a proper response.

Honestly, apart from experienced members going at each other occasionally, I haven't noticed any overreactions towards the rookies. Maybe there have been, but nothing that caught my attention.
And what little hostile behavior I found on the board was usually met with a strong negative reactions from other members.

This might be as good as it gets, not sure there's room for improvement, at least not considering we're just human and this is a public forum with people from all over...

It seems you have missed the point entirely.

This thread was started NOT because of any deliberate attack on the beginner - far from it.  Nor was it about any perceived "attitude" from the beginner.

It was directed towards those that came in and started their own chest-beating that ignored the beginner's need.

[TheUnnamedNewbie]

I can understand where the OP is coming from. I am not going to claim I am an expert or I have the solutions, but I have thought about this a few times, so I'll share my thoughts here.

The first is regarding the "let me google that for you" attitude. I've seen this a lot on stackexchange as well, where I used to be an active member but stopped being one because of a few people who, in my humble opinion, ruin it for everyone.

It might not be in those exact words, but it often comes down to something along the lines of "This information is easily available on the internet, so you should just research it". 99% of these responses get me worked up and angry because they don't help. When you have some experience with the topic, it's easy to forget how hard it can be sometimes to find information. A beginner doesn't even know what to look for, or how to ask the questions. They don't the terminology to use to ask questions. They also don't understand the field enough to know what questions to ask. And when they do get some results, they can't compare different answers - you need to know some basics before you can know if a website is ridden with errors or bad advice. And often the advice is so overwhelming you don't even know how to interpret it.

In other words, telling them to "go do some research since the information is available" is not really helping them and just makes you look like a jerk, who isn't willing to help but is willing to take time to tell the person that they are not going to help them. And if the person asking the question has done research but just failed to get the information they need because they are lost in the amount of information available, it will just push them away from this great hobby and/or profession. Imagine if you had to figure out if a certain bump on your skin was bad or not, and when you went to ask a person in the field of medicine they just gave you 3 1000 page books on dermatology and told you "just look it up, it's in there!". I imagine most would be no wiser after this and still not be able to tell what is going on because there is just too much info. But if that person told you "oh, have a look at this chapter here in this book, it covers that kind of info" or "we categorize these bumps by this and this property, so this example is of this type and you should look for this and this terms". All of these probably took that person the same amount of time to tell you, but the last two will help you get started, and the first will result in most people just going "ehhhh" and not get any results.

I do understand how "annoying" it can be when some beginners come here thinking they know electronics because they can blink an LED on a arduino. But at the same time, I feel like it is not fully their fault when some help pages and such for those platforms is written like there is no complexity beneath the arduino.

And as people who have been doing this for years you see problems beginners might not. And then we like to go off and discuss them, not contributing any information to the OPs point. EG, someone asks about a resistor divider and it turns into a discussion about impedance and errors and tolerances....

[Brumby]

I can understand where the OP is coming from. I am not going to claim I am an expert or I have the solutions, but I have thought about this a few times, so I'll share my thoughts here.

The first is regarding the "let me google that for you" attitude. I've seen this a lot on stackexchange as well, where I used to be an active member but stopped being one because of a few people who, in my humble opinion, ruin it for everyone.

It might not be in those exact words, but it often comes down to something along the lines of "This information is easily available on the internet, so you should just research it". 99% of these responses get me worked up and angry because they don't help. When you have some experience with the topic, it's easy to forget how hard it can be sometimes to find information. A beginner doesn't even know what to look for, or how to ask the questions. They don't the terminology to use to ask questions. They also don't understand the field enough to know what questions to ask. And when they do get some results, they can't compare different answers - you need to know some basics before you can know if a website is ridden with errors or bad advice. And often the advice is so overwhelming you don't even know how to interpret it.

In other words, telling them to "go do some research since the information is available" is not really helping them and just makes you look like a jerk, who isn't willing to help but is willing to take time to tell the person that they are not going to help them. And if the person asking the question has done research but just failed to get the information they need because they are lost in the amount of information available, it will just push them away from this great hobby and/or profession. Imagine if you had to figure out if a certain bump on your skin was bad or not, and when you went to ask a person in the field of medicine they just gave you 3 1000 page books on dermatology and told you "just look it up, it's in there!". I imagine most would be no wiser after this and still not be able to tell what is going on because there is just too much info. But if that person told you "oh, have a look at this chapter here in this book, it covers that kind of info" or "we categorize these bumps by this and this property, so this example is of this type and you should look for this and this terms". All of these probably took that person the same amount of time to tell you, but the last two will help you get started, and the first will result in most people just going "ehhhh" and not get any results.

I do understand how "annoying" it can be when some beginners come here thinking they know electronics because they can blink an LED on a arduino. But at the same time, I feel like it is not fully their fault when some help pages and such for those platforms is written like there is no complexity beneath the arduino.

And as people who have been doing this for years you see problems beginners might not. And then we like to go off and discuss them, not contributing any information to the OPs point. EG, someone asks about a resistor divider and it turns into a discussion about impedance and errors and tolerances....

Again ... this isn't really what inspired this thread.

I repost this:

This thread was started NOT because of any deliberate attack on the beginner - far from it.  Nor was it about any perceived "attitude" from the beginner.

It was directed towards those that came in and started their own chest-beating that ignored the beginner's need.

[Syntax_Error]

Ok, it might not be the inspiration for the thread, but it is this person's take and original comments. If that's not allowed, and only parroting the original intent and sentiment is permitted, then close the thread, because all that can be said already has been.

[Brumby]

Before criticising, please READ.

This comment:

I can understand where the OP is coming from.

is then immediately followed by very clear statements which do NOT address the OPs message.  While what they say is not wrong in itself, it is NOT what the OP was on about.

My only purpose in responding as I did was make the distinction between what the poster thought the topic was about and what it IS actually about.  This happens all too often in a forum and it can really cause confusion.  Sometimes battles ensue that were not at all necessary.

Communication is important - and having the subject correct is a key to having a meaningful discussion on that subject.  At least that's what I've found.  If trying too keep the subject clearly in focus is "only parroting the original intent and sentiment", then I must plead guilty.  But ... can you have a meaningful discussion about roses by talking about drag races?  I know I'd struggle.

This, however...

... then close the thread, because all that can be said already has been.

... is pretty much how I feel as well.

This thread needs to rest - but the original message remembered.

[Docholiday]

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.


Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

There is always a way to positively direct and aid without criticism.  If you cant find a way, let someone else do it.  We are talking about a thread for beginners to post their first successes.  They will know when it is time to post in that thread.

We are talking about beginners making their first blinking led.  First beeper.  Bidirectional software controlled motor.  Driving their first LCD character module.  First MCU thermometer software.  Simple opamp headphone amplifier.  Stuff like that.

There has always been a problem here on this forum with these bully's that would rather use criticism than critic.  Perhaps they themselves do not know how or they are just mindless weak individuals.  The accountability on this forum has been from one extreme to another.

When I joined this forum there was this individual that had a PCB design software called Auto Trax I think.  Anyway he was being harassed by the bullys' to the extent that he over-reacted after being provoked by them.  He did something he should not have done.  Subsequently, these bully' complained to the Dave (owner of this site) and resulted that Dave banished him forever and deleted his account.

The application he had impressive in what he created considering as he is a one man shop.  However, he was criticized in many, many ways by these bully's.  Once it started by one the rest jumped in. It was clear there were faults on both sides however, originally perpetuated by the bullies but the odds were overwhelming for him when it turned into a free for all against him - just too many of them.

To add further damage when complaints were made bad decisions were made on irrational reaction.  I cannot blame Dave completely, he is a young guy and was trying to quell the situation with the senior members as best he thought he could, by the way they were the ones that generally escalated the situation and it spiraled out of control from there.

I belong to many other forums and can assure that these cowards exist everywhere in one form or another.  It is just best to ignore them.  Just think of what a pitiful existence of a life they have that there only self esteem is to bully others into their submission.  These are the types that turn into child beaters, child molesters, beat women for their own self satisfaction.  They are easy to identify, at first one will start alone then others will join in - cowards the whole lot of them.  I loved to arrest them and just watch them when they realize they are going jail - crying and balling for their mama's.  Because in prison they will become the humble little bitches they really are.  I never felt sorry or remorse for them not even pity.

So you new guys hold your heads up high and ask those questions as many times as you want.  There are those on here that will answer them, guide you, and help you - Ignore the others.  Just remember everybody here on this forum and others like it were not born with this knowledge.  We ALL started the same way! Knowing nothing, zero, zip, zilch.  We all did the magic smoke many times, bought stuff we did not need, made bad PCB designs besides, how else is their to learn if we do not make mistakes.

[Mechatrommer]

it seems this thread reaches page 4, so...

The application he had impressive in what he created considering as he is a one man shop.

so do you still use AutoTrax until today?

However, he was criticized in many, many ways by these bully's.

you seems to jumped in the story in middle way. you have no clue why these bullies exist... cause and effect. when we tried to make a constructional criticisms (usually based on more reputable examples), and its been taken the wrong way, or the person being advised insisted he's doing it the right way, then you should understand why bullies emerged. but the word "bully" is your own choosing, i dont say its bully, i say its "constructional criticisms", most newbies and young men (including some "worshiped" contents providers in the net) cannot accept this they live in their own definition contaminating people's mind.

so in the end, some people are chasing their own tail by trying to enforce what is utopian right or wrong to them or others. without a proper guidance or references, how can you be so sure that you are right? define "inappropriate" define "insulting" define "conduct poorly", and provide your references (it could be yourself (not you) or your arse fart saying) it could be a neverending debate. we have people across globe around here, spreaded culture and language barrier. even in one country we have different personality, interest, way of speaking, influence, interpretation etc. some people seem harsher but thats not what they are intending to do, they maybe well mean educating others, but in different ways etc. i think R&R dave provides in beginner section already suffice and simple and clear enough to understand. no need further complicating the rules.

edit: dont worry friend its going to be ok. opps i used the word "dont worry" i should get the hell out and fuck myself.

[TheUnnamedNewbie]

Before criticising, please READ.

This comment:

I can understand where the OP is coming from.

is then immediately followed by very clear statements which do NOT address the OPs message.  While what they say is not wrong in itself, it is NOT what the OP was on about.

My only purpose in responding as I did was make the distinction between what the poster thought the topic was about and what it IS actually about.  This happens all too often in a forum and it can really cause confusion.  Sometimes battles ensue that were not at all necessary.

Communication is important - and having the subject correct is a key to having a meaningful discussion on that subject.  At least that's what I've found.  If trying too keep the subject clearly in focus is "only parroting the original intent and sentiment", then I must plead guilty.  But ... can you have a meaningful discussion about roses by talking about drag races?  I know I'd struggle.

This, however...

... then close the thread, because all that can be said already has been.

... is pretty much how I feel as well.

This thread needs to rest - but the original message remembered.

I got the original message as "We should try and make sure that we don't  dissuade beginners from posting here because of the responses they get, or how the topic changes". Why? Well, from the first post:

(...)

To the "experts". STFU. Remember this is the beginners forum, not the bitch and whine forum. You are here to help the beginners with some advice. It is not the time bitch and argue with everyone who doesn't agree with you. If you think that the time for you to exercise your superiority over others is to debate into oblivion something the OP never asked is now, fuck off. Go start your own thread and argue there. Help the beginner with their original question and stop being a diva or go away. If you aren't answering the OP's question then you are being an asshole.Go start your own war somewhere else and stop scaring away beginners.

Yes, parts of this is quote does point to the problem, but I also interpret parts of this as "actually help instead of posting non-helpfull comments". Hence, my answer is in fact on-topic, on-topic in the larger concepts of "how do we make sure we communicate well with beginners and don't scare them away".

In addition, the first post also contains statements such as

Fanboys of brands, fuck off. Rich assholes who think that everyone needs to spend $1,000 just to be part of the "club". fuck off. If you can't help the OP with something useful relating to their needs, fuck off.

Which to me is also not about what you claim is the only topic here, which is, if I understand what you are trying to say, "experts should stop arguing with each other on beginner posts".

In addition, I find it bold of you to claim that you get to decide what is and is not the OPs idea here, since you aren't the OP. Why is your interpretation of the OPs statements necessarily more correct?

And all that aside: I wanted to share this idea because I felt like I could contribute to the concept of "being a good educator", which everyone on this forum that tries to help, in any way-shape-or-form here is.   

[paulca]

As a beginner I do find some of the answers off putting and discouraging.

Consider something like a mains transformer.  An early project a lot of people complete is creating their own power supply.  However when experienced people arrive in threads about this they tend to use it as a venue to demonstrate their advanced knowledge of the topic.  This information is valuable, but to a newbie it swamps them.  They believe they need to be able to calculate reactive power and apparent power, understand phase angles and the calculus involved and they will need to isolation test their transformer with a 1KV pulse generator and run signal generators through it etc. etc. etc.

Thankfully I am not deterred and a bit of reading else where I found some correctly pitched tutorials which take care of most of the complex bits by simply buying a suitable transformer designed for the purpose in the first place.  Taking sensible precautions with the mains side of things and understanding that it will work absolutely fine and how to tell when it's not and what to do about it.

It's not that the advanced information and how to calculate things so you don't run into problems isn't valuable, it just that for a beginner into the field of AC it makes you think you need to know all this stuff in advance.  The reality is you can experiment, test, measure and then when you run into problems consider understanding why.  Even then a simple qualitative answer is often better than the full equations and quantitative reasoning.

For example... VA rating.  My instinct told me that this is Volt-Ampere which sounds like watts, power.  So if I needed 10W I would buy a transformer that was rated to something above 10VA.  But in a lot of places, even in beginners forums, if you search for or ask this, you get the whole trigonometry answer about phase, reactive/apparent power etc.  The things I now understand is after you have done all those sums it turns out that, give or take a little here and there it is, for most purposes equal to watts.  If you assume it is watts and don't have a highly inductive or capacitive load ... and add a good 50% safety overhead then it will 99% of the time be fine without the maths.

When you have done your experiments or built you first few power supplies you can come back to the details and learn how to calculate things up front.

The difficult bit is finding the information in small enough chunks at a time and wading through the complex mess of quantitative details without getting discouraged and giving up.

[Brumby]

I got the original message as "We should try and make sure that we don't  dissuade beginners from posting here because of the responses they get, or how the topic changes".

Well, that is certainly correct ... but that is not how your post came across.

In addition, I find it bold of you to claim that you get to decide what is and is not the OPs idea here, since you aren't the OP. Why is your interpretation of the OPs statements necessarily more correct?

Bold?  How about "observant" or "empathic"?

This is not the first time this issue has been raised.  I have done it before myself and Lightages showed the same support there as I have here.  You will notice he has some "Thanks" on points I have made.

It is clear that we both share the same feeling about the subject - so how is it "Bold" to agree?

Even then a simple qualitative answer is often better than the full equations and quantitative reasoning.

For example... VA rating.  My instinct told me that this is Volt-Ampere which sounds like watts, power.  So if I needed 10W I would buy a transformer that was rated to something above 10VA.  But in a lot of places, even in beginners forums, if you search for or ask this, you get the whole trigonometry answer about phase, reactive/apparent power etc.  The things I now understand is after you have done all those sums it turns out that, give or take a little here and there it is, for most purposes equal to watts.  If you assume it is watts and don't have a highly inductive or capacitive load ... and add a good 50% safety overhead then it will 99% of the time be fine without the maths.

Excellent example. 

The difficult bit is finding the information in small enough chunks at a time and wading through the complex mess of quantitative details without getting discouraged and giving up.

THIS IS WORTH FRAMING!!

So I did...

[vk6zgo]

So you new guys hold your heads up high and ask those questions as many times as you want.  There are those on here that will answer them, guide you, and help you - Ignore the others.  Just remember everybody here on this forum and others like it were not born with this knowledge.  We ALL started the same way! Knowing nothing, zero, zip, zilch.  We all did the magic smoke many times, bought stuff we did not need, made bad PCB designs besides, how else is their to learn if we do not make mistakes.

No, we didn't ALL  do the magic smoke many times--- a few times, yes!

Many of us read everything we could find on the subject, then built something somebody else had designed,maybe modified it, then worked on stuff that had been made commercially, absorbing the lessons of how good design works & bad design doesn't.

We then maybe made a few more of other folks designs, & maybe then designed something from scratch (or maybe we never did design something)
Somehow, through this process, we got to "know a fair bit" about Electronics.

I've never been a believer in "learning through making mistakes".
You can't live long enough to re-make all the mistakes made in a century plus of Electronics, so you have to find some things out by reading the results of other people's efforts, anyway, so why not keep reading & minimise your mistakes?

[Docholiday]

So you new guys hold your heads up high and ask those questions as many times as you want.  There are those on here that will answer them, guide you, and help you - Ignore the others.  Just remember everybody here on this forum and others like it were not born with this knowledge.  We ALL started the same way! Knowing nothing, zero, zip, zilch.  We all did the magic smoke many times, bought stuff we did not need, made bad PCB designs besides, how else is their to learn if we do not make mistakes.

No, we didn't ALL  do the magic smoke many times--- a few times, yes!

Many of us read everything we could find on the subject, then built something somebody else had designed,maybe modified it, then worked on stuff that had been made commercially, absorbing the lessons of how good design works & bad design doesn't.

We then maybe made a few more of other folks designs, & maybe then designed something from scratch (or maybe we never did design something)
Somehow, through this process, we got to "know a fair bit" about Electronics.

I've never been a believer in "learning through making mistakes".
You can't live long enough to re-make all the mistakes made in a century plus of Electronics, so you have to find some things out by reading the results of other people's efforts, anyway, so why not keep reading & minimise your mistakes?

Reminds me of one of my favorite English authors of short fiction Neil Gaiman said " I hope that in this year to come, you make mistakes. Because if you are making mistakes, then you are making new things, trying new things, learning, living, pushing yourself, changing your world. You're doing things you've never done before, and more importantly, you're doing something".  It may difficult for you to understand its meaning but I hope for others reading that it helps you open new avenues and give you encouragement to open new horizons for you.

I understand your reply and I partially agree with you but this is the "Beginners" section of the forum and as such formalities however we wish them to be or should be are in reality is not applicable here.  These are students, hobbyists, tinkerers, etc just starting out.  They are in fact our next generation of EE's, inventors, and we as professionals should respect that.  Lets guide them to success and during the course introduce methodologies of work flows, research, etc. So they too can continue this process.

Perhaps what is needed is an Intermediate, and Advance sections so those with so much knowledge (anger) can vent their personal frustrations there and not on a beginners forum.  That way we can see how smart you are and tells us how we should be working and that you never created any magic smoke and other tall tales of success as an EE.

By the way I attend an Ivy League school here in the US (full scholarship) and working on my last year Masters in EE.  My professor has always encouraged her students to expand their horizons and if we are not making magic smoke we are not thinking outside of the box.  Why? she wants us to expand our horizons, go beyond the limits of our design, thoughts, and ideas.

[Docholiday]

I really fail to see the point of this thread (or the content that populated it)

Regardless of this forum, I find it that if you put enough effort into googling your problem and reading up on it, and then come to a community and ask, nobody will go hard on you.
Somebody is giving away his knowledge for free and that should be also respected.

Personally I haven't noticed any bulling on the forum towards new people (some members going at each other, but not significantly). People are generally politically correct, patient and sensitive, and I guess it has to do with the type of the community here.
 

No one should go hard on you.  This is the beginners section and a beginner should feel comfortable to ask any question he or she wants.  Without being told what to do first.  Scolded, berated, chastised, should not be a part of the beginners section of this forum.

If you are holding a monetary value to the knowledge you have and feel entitled because of it then perhaps this website is not for you time to move on.  Its about sharing ideas, knowledge, and experiences with all regardless.  Most importantly, is helping others.

Respected how? Respect for one another as human beings is one thing but demanding respect because you have an EE and/or years and years of experience in my opinion and my opinion only - As Chef Gordon Ramsey would say "Fock Off" you are not entitled to that kind of respect. 

You haven no right to put yourself or anybody else in such a high degree of respect.  That is only reserved for individuals men and women that place their lives in protecting others, and saving others. It is their right of passage that is earned with their lives and commands that type of respect they are entitled to.

For someone like you and I as well as others the closest we come to respect as human beings is respect for one another we will ever get.

[BravoV]

I guess this type of thread is an exception ?

-> 220V power over 24 AWG UTP cable to the transformer for 5V DC 3A for RaspberryPi

[Brumby]

That thread suffers from two fundamental problems - both of which originate from the OP:  A poorly phrased question and a combative defence of it.

Poorly phrased questions we can handle - sometimes inelegantly - but we can get there a lot of the time.

Bad attitude, however, is something over which we have no control.

[Monkeh]

That thread suffers from two fundamental problems - both of which originate from the OP:  A poorly phrased question and a combative defence of it.

Poorly phrased questions we can handle - sometimes inelegantly - but we can get there a lot of the time.

Bad attitude, however, is something over which we have no control.

Thread smells like troll.

[BravoV]

A thread lock down to Mods had been requested on that thread, hopefully they will do it, as it will be a fine specimen preserved, especially for this thread. 

[Docholiday]

A thread lock down to Mods had been requested on that thread, hopefully they will do it, as it will be a fine specimen preserved, especially for this thread. 

I second that motion!

[drussell]

A thread lock down to Mods had been requested on that thread, hopefully they will do it, as it will be a fine specimen preserved, especially for this thread. 

I second that motion!

Unfortunately, the OP already deleted all his replies and edited his first post so the originally fine specimen of "how not to ask a beginner question" is no more. 

[BravoV]

A thread lock down to Mods had been requested on that thread, hopefully they will do it, as it will be a fine specimen preserved, especially for this thread. 

I second that motion!

Unfortunately, the OP already deleted all his replies and edited his first post so the originally fine specimen of "how not to ask a beginner question" is no more. 

Yeah, bummer, bit too late few minutes I guess. Also probably that thread's OP probably read my post on preserving his "valuable" thread contribution before destroying the specimen. 

Ok, there will be always another specimen to hunt down, and no more pre-warning next time, report 1st, and once its properly "preserved"by mod, and post it as a good specimen later here. 

[Brumby]

Oh, wow.  Talk about backpedalling.  That was a level above even what I had picked up on.


To any beginners reading this thread, don't be fearful of asking a question - even if you are not quite sure how to word it.  Just make your best effort and if it is unclear to us, we will try to sort it out with you.

Whatever happens, be prepared for a variety of different responses - there's people from all around the world here ... and a phenomenal amount of knowledge.  All we ask is for some simple courtesy - and an expression of appreciation won't go astray.

... and remember, every contribution by every member is done in their own free time which they do voluntarily.  The reason we do is that we want to encourage interest and help people develop their skills in electronics.

We also want to make sure you are aware of safety issues.  The last thing any of us want is for you to find out what "One flash and you're ash" means - first hand.

[Enlargee79]

Just thought I'd drop this 2c in.

In my reasonably limited experience here, the users have been nothing but incredibly helpful and friendly. I think that bears mentioning.
So thanks to you guys that trawl through here with your palms permantently, albeit silently affixed to your forehead.

[Distelzombie]

I am a few hours on here and get answers that I either never wanted or that simply say "Don't worry about it."
Of course I'm only a few hours young, but I guess it depends on when you are online to what kind of experience you make.

[paulca]

I am a few hours on here and get answers that I either never wanted or that simply say "Don't worry about it."
Of course I'm only a few hours young, but I guess it depends on when you are online to what kind of experience you make.

Yes.  Answers sometimes get pedantic or "blingy".  It often hard to determine if answers are saying, "Your idea won't work, period."  or if they are saying, "You'll probably be fine, but I would do it differently", or "It might work, but the standard way is..."

So you will get a mix of bling, pedantry, hobby horsing and people trying to reassure you "You'll be fine, don't worry about it."

Personally, I take the "Don't worry about it" as a starting point, but the bling and pedantry as a target for progression.

[Distelzombie]

The "don't worry about it" feels like [read it as Australien Rick] "Mhm, you little pesky thing. Aren't you a feisty one? Look at ALL the questions you got. So many questions. Mhm?! In one little head. Your stupid little head! YOUR F-ING STUPID HEAD!" and then he threatens to kill you, reassuringly.

[oldway]

The Internet is a real battlefield, whether on social networks or forums.
Whoever uses the Internet must know it and get used to it, otherwise it is not the EEV blog forum  he has to run, but all the Internet in general.

Personally, I find that this forum is particularly well moderated and one of the most correct that can be found.

So, I see no reason to apologize to anyone.

On the other hand, I would like to remind the beginners that they should follow some principles to be well received, what they often neglect to do:

- a short presentation with their level of knowledge and interests.

- ask a question clearly and in sufficient detail so that we can answer it

- Refrain from asking questions on subjects where projects are daring and incompatible with their level of knowledge. A beginner should not work with voltages higher than 50V unless he demonstrates sufficient knowledge to do so without risk....For exemple, an electrician can be a beginner in electronics and have enough knowledge of safety to work with 230V .

- accept the answers and do not interpret them as deliberately negative: the electronics may not be as simple as they think.

- remember that we are all volunteers and that we are not at their disposal to develop projects tailored to their desires ... If some members do, sacrificing their personal time, it is pure kindness and they have no oblgation to do it.

- finally, a small thank you for the answers never hurts ....