or are these capacitors ALSO not actually within 10% tolerance after all?
Technically they may be well within 10%. If you open the datasheet for class ll or lll ceramic cap, you'll see how capacitance is measured and there will be something like cap needs to be heated up and cooled before measurement.
I checked that listing. I see that seller have edited tolerances (to be safe than sorry). However +80/-20% can be real only for higher capacitance and crappy ceramic (for disc ceramic capacitors you can be sure that will be crappiest ceramic possible once you are above few nF).
Heat the capacitor with a soldering iron, cool it down, then measure again. Class 2 and 3 capacitors do age by dropping capacitance, heating resets it. Also if those are Z5U / Y5V or something similar, if your meter gives high enough DC offset, it already can noticeably impact the capacitance. But if you hold them with your fingers, heat from them can also drop capacitance by say 10 nF, they are highly unstable.
Components of this classification are fixed, ceramic
dielectric capacitors suited for bypass and decoupling or other
applications in which dielectric losses, high insulation resistance
and capacitance stability are not of major importance. Z5U exhibits
a predictable change in capacitance with respect to time and
voltage and displays wide variations in capacitance with reference
to ambient temperature. Capacitance change is limited to +22%,
-56% from +10°C to +85°C.
http://www.kemet.com/Lists/ProductCatalog/Attachments/69/KEM_C1004_Z5U_SMD.pdf
Thanks guys.
Inspired by your collective input, I conducted some more, very rough, tests.
Some background info-
To give it a large heat-up-and-cool-down cycle, I used a soldering iron in direct contact with the capacitor for a few seconds, as if soldering it.
To do minor temperature sensitivity tests, i.e. ~10'C above room temperature, I found that holding tightly between my finger and thumb worked pretty well (tests suggested that went to about 33'C, room temp was about 21'C.)
The two meters I used appear to measure capacitance in slightly different ways-
The (original) Fluke 87 seemed to run at about a fixed 2Hz-ish cycle. The curves are the standard looking charging curve followed by loooong flats, so I suspect is still constant voltage using 1.2V to charge the capacitor fully and then discharge fully, whatever the values (changing the capacitor didn't change the 2Hz cycle), so I guess it's just measuring how long it takes to get to 63.2%, twice a second.
The Vichi VC97 uses a source voltage of about 0.7V open circuit, and appears to cycling the capacitor up-and-down to the infamous ~ 63.2% of this (I measured about 0.44V), so I'm guessing it's using a comparitor to measure this vs a 63.2% / 0.44V ref to swap between charge and discharge and then measuring frequency to determine the capacitance over time?
The measurements-
A tantalum 1uF - the closest I have to a reference. I didn't mess with this by giving it a heat cycle because I've only got one of these and I need it for a Vref circuit later.
@21'C
Fluke 87 =
0.97uF.
VC97 =
0.96uF (adding 10'C made no difference.)
A 47nF from my Vellemanp K/CAP1 kit - standard unspecified tolerance/material ceramic disc capacitor.Giving it a soldering iron heat cycle and cool down raised it about
5-10nF.
@21'C
Fluke 87 =
56nFVC97 =
51nF (adding 10'C reduced it down to
36nF.)
A 47nF disc ceramic from the recently ordered packs discussed earlier in this thread.
Giving it a soldering iron heat cycle and cool down raised it about
5-10nF.
Fluke 87 =
49nFVC97 =
43nF (adding 10'C reduced it down to
34nF.)
A random eBay leaded Monolithic Multilayer Ceramic Capacitor 1uF.
Giving it a soldering iron heat cycle and cool down made
0.5nF difference - barely any change.
Fluke 87 =
0.96uFVC97 =
0.96uF (adding 10'C reduced it down to
0.95uF - barely any change.)
To me it looks like the finger heat test, plus seeing different readings between the Fluke 87 and the VC97, seem quite a good indicator of the general stability of any random capacitors I have?
From that, even though the material/tolerances weren't stated, the eBay 1uF monolithic multilayer ceramic capacitor pack looks a fair compromise for random hobby experimenting purposes? I've some more of different values coming from HK that I can compare with soon too (0.22uF and 0.47uF.) Might these be the way to go for me, for relatively low voltages - ordering a pack at a time and testing them when they arrive?
Warm Regards from wet Derby, UK
Julie
xxx
PS OMG that £10 (~US$15) 1970s 10Mhz Oscilloscope I got (through the help and direction of folk in another thread) has come in so handy of late. I seem to be turning to it almost every time I start playing with electronicy things now. The pure analogue lines, looking so perfect and unaliased, are soooo preddy to look at too.