Cheapo digital scope for beginner. Siglent 100MHz 2 channel

[JensAndree]

Hellö

Writing from up-over... (Sweden is pretty much the exact opposite to Australia )

Have been fiddling with electronics since I was a little boy both never anything serious - that was until last summer.
I'm mainly using Atmel microcontrollers for various projects and I'm having fun with older hardware like SID (MOS 6581) and soon the Paula chip from the Amiga 500.

To the thing then. I've never owned nor used an oscilloscope but since I'm using a fair bit of I2C, SPI and other protocols the need for unlocking the black box has emerged.

I can't spend much money on a scope and I'd like to go directly for a digital one instead of analogue. (recommendation from HW engineer friend)

Found a scope on eBay (Siglent 100mhz Digital Storage Oscilloscope SDS1102CNL) which could work as a first scope, that's what I thought anyway
It only has 2 channels but reasonable bandwidth for my usage.
I'm a software engineer who's taken a like in hardware but I stick to reasonable hardware design for now.

I know I read a comment from Dave stating that Sigilent wasn't too bad but the model that he referred to was a fair bit outside my price range.

Is this a wise choice or plain stupid?
It costs appx $350 including P&P. (and I suspect the Swedish tax-man will hog it and demand ransom for more money as it enters the country...)

The main usage is for LEARNING more about electronics since I can only guess right now what's happening when I connect my bits and see the outcome.
I also want to debug various communication protocols and suspect I can use this scope for gathering the data.

Yes or no? (if No, please recommend something that's fairly easy to get hold of)

Many thanks in advance from an emerging tinkerer!

p.s Sorry if this subject has already been churned through a million times but I'm just about to press "buy me now sucker" and I assume this forum is one of the more competent ones but still encourage us learners.

p.p.s Big thanks to Dave for not only teaching us really well but also provide excellent entertainment at the same time! If I'd only learned this much when I was a kid perhaps I'd be working with only HW now?

[Bored@Work]

You will find that Siglent/Atten crap has been discussed here in the past. You will also find that a certain Siglent dealer and his sock puppet tried to convince people that Siglent/Atten is the greatest thing since sliced bread. You have to make up your own mind, because you can't trust people here when it comes to Siglent/Atten. Rule number one: You get what you pay for.

[mariush]

Siglent SDS1102CML  is rebranded as Atten ADS1102CML and as other scopes.

You can find a written review of the Atten branded scope here: http://www.cube.co.za/~tva/workbench/atten-ads1102cml/atten-ads-1102cml-review.xhtml

Martin (mjlorton on Youtube) has reviewed his Xytron DSO1042CML (Aktakom / Atten? ADS1042CML) in the video below, which is again made by siglent :



The scope in the mini review above died on him, but he managed to resurrect him a few days ago by flashing the Siglent firmware on it.

He also has a "how to use an oscilloscope" video in which you can see that 40 Mhz scope in action to see how it works - the 100 mhz version should be about the same:



That's about as impartial as you can probably get.

[JensAndree]

You will find that Siglent/Atten crap has been discussed here in the past. You will also find that a certain Siglent dealer and his sock puppet tried to convince people that Siglent/Atten is the greatest thing since sliced bread. You have to make up your own mind, because you can't trust people here when it comes to Siglent/Atten. Rule number one: You get what you pay for.

Yes, canvassers can be found everywhere and one always get what one pays for.

I'd love to get my hands on a "proper" scope but life's not perfect.

What I need is a scope that can perform the basic tasks and not blow up on me when I connect it, nor display so much noise that the signals are unreadable.
If, and when, I surpass my entry-level-scope I will spend the money needed in order to get a real scope in the range of $2000.

I've looked at various usb-scope-wannabe-signal-analyzers that will do the protocol bits but they are very limited in what they can do.

I shall search the forum for the above mentioned scope and try to come to some sort of conclusion before considering pressing that devious "order me now" button.

Thanks for the quick reply!

[mariush]

Jens, if you have problems usually with the customs and packages from China, have a look at Batronix: http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/DSO.html

Since they're in Germany (or Austria or Switzerland, I forget now exactly where they are) , you will get the package in less than a week straight to your door if you pick a courier that does that, no customs issues... the only downsize is that you would pay VAT for it.

Sort the page above by price, the cheapest is about 319$...

I bought the Rigol 1052E from them and it works great... the only thing you may not like is the small screen size, compared to other scopes in the price range.  The 50 Mhz frequency doesn't bother me and for hobby, I don't think it's an issue.
This 50mhz scope could be hacked to work at 100 mhz, but I think that with the latest versions of firmware, it's no longer possible (you'll have to investigate, there's a huge thread here about it). I had no need to do it yet.

The 30 Mhz and 60 Mhz Owon scopes have larger screens but I think everything is just doubled (you don't get more data on screen compared to smaller screen) but the 60 Mhz version also has vga output. If that's important for you, maybe it's worth the extra money.
But you'll also have to do some search here on the forum for some reviews about the Owon scopes... I did not research them.

[JensAndree]

Most helpful comments there guys!

Since I'm not yet at a level where I could justify, nor utilize, an expensive scope this model seems to be where I should start.
Unless my reading has suddenly deteriorated, the scope I mentioned in the first post should also handle mains AC without blowing up? (I have tinkered in the past with changing the 50Hz to 61Hz in order for my HiFi to sound better! Could see myself building a new AC-DC-AC converter with variable frequency to go with the HiFi)

I looked at both videos and although the Siglent +whatever rebranded versions is very cheap it does seem to be a step up from the multimeter I use today and the various Arduino jerryrigged debug-devices I've bodged many times.

Ordering from within EU more than doubled the price so I'll take my chances with the tax-man not finding the package. Even if he does it normally doesn't add that much on top.

The main reason for buying a scope is foremost to learn what the heck I'm doing but also to launch my next project.

I've already build an SID shield for an Arduino Uno/similar that takes MIDI in and SID audio out. Retro c64 sounds with a real keyboard!
The next project I'm going for - and is apparently a first - is to take a Paula chip from an decomissioned Amiga 500 and make a hardware mod player.
I will drive it with an ATMega 328p but trying to figure out the hardware in black-box mode has so far been fruitless and smelly... (yep, smoke signals has been made bu no-one answered :p)

So I will probably buy one of these multi-named contraptions and see where it takes me. If it does blow up, or when it does, it hopefully would have given me enough experience to guide me into spending bigger money on a proper scope.

Yet again, many thanks and I'm aware that one gets what one pays for but some shit can work reasonable well - the tricky part is to find the few things that does work amongst the pile of doda.

Warm regards from a f...ing cold Sweden that should've seen spring by now... Perhaps I should focus on a very large inductance heater instead? 

[JensAndree]

Purchase made!

I've bought the NEW Siglent 1102 CNL. Exciting things when NEW is part of the title. 

It should hopefully get me going and perhaps I will facepalm myself in 12 months time but I'd rather start with something cheap that breaks than spending big money on something that'll only collect dust. Been there, got the T-shirt.

[BillyD]

Regarding Batronix, they were the best value for shipping to Ireland last year and that's where I purchased my Rigol. They also have 28 or 30 day cooling off period if you change your mind. Found them fine to deal with.
Billy.

[casper.bang]

Wow, you don't waste time Jens! Reading your post, resonated with me (except I live on the other side of Øresund). Here's what I am thinking about the subject these days:

First of all, while prices and availability seems to be better when shopping from China, ordering from within the EU gives certain advantages; there's no duty or VAT.

Rigol DS1052E:
Very predictable and a good reputation. I am borrowing the predecessor DS1102CD these days from work, and I can sort of see why this scope has a good rep; however the screen is really small, the shared channel buttons get annoying, there's no dedicated single-shot button and the hum of the fan is really loud. I have been thinking of ordering from the UK for £237, hack the scope to 100MHz and replace the fan. I can't help to think though, that the technology is now a good 4-5 years old and that there is better value for money out there (or perhaps a new generation with 7" screen on the way from Rigol).

Siglent SDS CML family:
Next to Rigol, Siglent seems to be getting the best reviews of the Chinese manufacturers. SDS appears to be the latest generation and improves on the Rigol on all aspects pretty much (SDS1072CML has bigger screen, dedicated buttons, double the sample memory). The main problem with these Siglents are the location, they pretty much all have to be ordered from China.

Owon:
On paper, most bang per buck. However, the menu system and button quantity over quality scares me, along with all the relative negative coverage these have received in the forums (I've spend many a night reading though old threads). I considered long and hard before discounting this as an option.

I wish Dave could review these entry level scopes; I'm pretty sure I will either play the conservative card of Rigol DS1052E or try my luck with a Siglent if I can find a European distributor.

[JensAndree]

I'm not much for wasting time

I've learned that if one thinks too much about the possibilities in life you miss all of them and learn bugger all! 

My electronics lab at home is evolving and I always seem to need something I don't have so whenever I need to buy components I buy 10 of everything so the next time I might need it it's already there.
I've got an old multimeter that's served me well but it lacks all the functions I need and by using an Arduino for gathering data the speed is way too low and doing the same with an STM32F3 then the build toolchain generates more issues than the original problem and then you're lost...

In order to ramp up my knowledge and way forward I decided a few hours ago that I MUST get a scope and so I did - but after seeking advice from you guys.

We'll see how long time it takes for the damn thing to arrive at my door... Delivery from China tends to take appx 4 weeks regardless of what you order and from whom.
Heck, it might even be spring when the damn thing gets here!!! (although I won't count on it...)

If it's crap then I'm sure I can flog it here and cover my losses but from what I've seen it should do nicely!

[Radio Tech]

Wow, you don't waste time Jens! Reading your post, resonated with me (except I live on the other side of Øresund). Here's what I am thinking about the subject these days:

First of all, while prices and availability seems to be better when shopping from China, ordering from within the EU gives certain advantages; there's no duty or VAT.

Rigol DS1052E:
Very predictable and a good reputation. I am borrowing the predecessor DS1102CD these days from work, and I can sort of see why this scope has a good rep; however the screen is really small, the shared channel buttons get annoying, there's no dedicated single-shot button and the hum of the fan is really loud. I have been thinking of ordering from the UK for £237, hack the scope to 100MHz and replace the fan. I can't help to think though, that the technology is now a good 4-5 years old and that there is better value for money out there (or perhaps a new generation with 7" screen on the way from Rigol).

Siglent SDS CML family:
Next to Rigol, Siglent seems to be getting the best reviews of the Chinese manufacturers. SDS appears to be the latest generation and improves on the Rigol on all aspects pretty much (SDS1072CML has bigger screen, dedicated buttons, double the sample memory). The main problem with these Siglents are the location, they pretty much all have to be ordered from China.

Owon:
On paper, most bang per buck. However, the menu system and button quantity over quality scares me, along with all the relative negative coverage these have received in the forums (I've spend many a night reading though old threads). I considered long and hard before discounting this as an option.

I wish Dave could review these entry level scopes; I'm pretty sure I will either play the conservative card of Rigol DS1052E or try my luck with a Siglent if I can find a European distributor.

A few weeks ago I was doing the same thing here and other places.  Asking about this and that about what scope to buy.  I finnaly made my own mind up and went with the Owon PDS6062S. Yep, an older scope but brand new. This scope does everything it says it will do and I love it. Although it is a very basic DSO it is pretty nice.  I did have 2 problems with it. One the software did not work on my PC, and two the brightness of the screen was terrible. After a email to Owon they fixed me up. Downloaded new software and that worked. The guy then told me this:

Look at the right of label on bottom. Turn brightness up to your level

   

[JensAndree]

Since I decided to order one I'm more convinced that it's the right, or atleast one of the right, choice(s) for me to start my scope journey.
Was looking at the fine-print of the bundled software it came with and it seemed a bit old-ish... Only 32 bit x86 (win) binaries...

Will these scopes work with other perhaps more premium software or are we talking about proprietary protocols and stuff?

It's going to be great fun to measure a few of the already build projects I've done and see if my calculations/guesses/hunches were right?
They all work but how well? Getting a scope is in fact a must the way I see it 

It shipped this morning so now the wait-game has started...

I've been scanning the forum a bit and it seems to be a great resource for both noobs and seniors - thanks for this!

[casper.bang]

Will these scopes work with other perhaps more premium software or are we talking about proprietary protocols and stuff?

I have come by Mark Madel's comments on several occations, where he addresses this aspect. You might want to try and hunt down those threads. These may be of interest:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/

[EEVblog]

You will find that Siglent/Atten crap has been discussed here in the past. You will also find that a certain Siglent dealer and his sock puppet tried to convince people that Siglent/Atten is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And who would that be?

[JensAndree]

I have come by Mark Madel's comments on several occations, where he addresses this aspect. You might want to try and hunt down those threads.

Many thanks!
This is actually more useful than I thought!

Professionally I work with software development and has for the last 20 years worked with test methodologies and applied processes. I have written a vast number of engines for test automation and I've recently added hardware options in my test rig.
My first proper hardware test was by adding a ACS714 Current Sensor to one of our products in order to measure the current consumption in parallel with all test-cases. This has proven very useful in hunting those mAh... (not to mention that it's dirt cheap and only require an Arduino Leonardo with my code to become complete!)
I have planned to add a protocol analyzer that verifies the data on the fly in order to capture root cause in real-time and this can prove to be very useful.
One reason for doing all this by myself is to keep the costs down per device under test - hence why I can't put a $2000 scope and other bits per device in the rig. (I have many devices connected 24/7)

In order to still have fun at work after 23 years I have to broaden my view and the recent renewed interest in hardware certainly made my life a lot more exciting!

[rf-loop]

Siglent have new FW version.

Old version in SDS1072CNL what I know was 3.01.01.31R17

New version is: 5.01.02.13

I have not tested this version so much but one is very clear:

EqualTime sampling works now lot of better! Improvement is really big if compare old.


If you update: Please look carefully new 2  step update process instructions. (First phase .ADS file and next phase .CNF configuration file)

[rf-loop]

Also note:

Dear honored partners,

Thanks very much for your support and attention to Siglent all the way along. As SDS1000L series, with 7" LCD display and higher cost performance, have been launched, we would like to notice you that Siglent will stop manufacturing SDS1000C/D/CM/CN/CF/CE with 5.7" LCD display after 30th April, 2013.


SDS1000L series, which replace the SDS1000C/D/CM/CN/CF/CE series, is equipped with 7" wide LCD panel and 8*18 display divisions. Users will observe waveform more conveniently.

Closing date   4-30-2013
Old Models:
SDS1000C
SDS1000D
SDS1000CM
SDS1000CN
SDS1000CE
SDS1000CF
 

[JensAndree]

I'll be sure to check the SW rev when my DSO finally arrives.
Did receive a package yesterday from Hong Kong that shipped only two days earlier! That's a new record. (although it only contained a Bus Pirate + some other bits)
Not enough for the tax-man to hijack I guess

[Burak]

Hi all,

Also note:

Dear honored partners,

Thanks very much for your support and attention to Siglent all the way along. As SDS1000L series, with 7" LCD display and higher cost performance, have been launched, we would like to notice you that Siglent will stop manufacturing SDS1000C/D/CM/CN/CF/CE with 5.7" LCD display after 30th April, 2013.

is the chance that Siglent SDS1000CML/CNL/DL series will be successfully hack ?

A Hellene written in Siglent sds1000 7' oscilloscope anatomy that this hardware is little bit better from famous DS1000E/D.


 

[JensAndree]

Scope arrived today and customs let it pass through without inspection! 

The package had somewhat questionable padding on the top but the rest was well padded. Not a scratch on the DSO. (the two added Chinese plush-toy dragons were a surprise though...)

I've started it and made my first ever measurement with a scope and I just used an Arduino DUE and created some PWM variations in order to see it operate and I'm now no longer a scope-virgin... 

In the end I payed $347 for the scope including shipping (and two plush dragons) and I must say I'm very pleased with the simple, but seemingly powerful, little scope.
As I previously stated I mainly bought this DSO in order to better understand electronics, both analogue and digital, and later aid in becoming a better tinkerer!
Just by looking at the PWM on the scope whilst tweaking the values on the Arduino gave me a visual reference to what I already knew - but now I know for sure.

Yes, this is not a jitter free reference scope but for me it's a huge step in the right direction and I'm very satisfied and now eager to start measuring everything I can in order to learn more.

Many thanks for the guidance in this step for me to learn new skills and although I'm not yet qualified to recommend this scope to others I can at least say that it does what it says on the box, and at great value!

...and a huge thanks to Dave who got me hooked on electronics last summer when I was stuck in bed for three months after an accident and his eevblog channel on youtube made me laugh so hard that the morphine that was supposed to take away the pain from my two damaged disks stopped working!
Thank you for making electronics understandable and accessible with your excellent teaching skills. (and great sense of humor!)

Soon I shall not just be "another software guy".

Tomorrow I shall start reading the "Oscilloscope training class" thread and learn the basics on how to properly use my new scope.

[casper.bang]

Congrats on loising your scope virginity. I probably speak for many of us "software guys" when I say, don't be shy to post pictures, provide scope image dumps etc. in a later followup when you have explored it a bit more. 

[JensAndree]

A week with my scope, but not so many hours tinkering as planned, has left me both enlightened and curious!
Coming from software I know that binary can only be 1 or 0 and they are very uniform with regards to shape in a signal etc.

In electronics that seems to be almost true... I've been probing all sorts of hardware to understand it better and I've seen many times where it's not been 100% clear if it's a 1 or a 0 on a bus.
Isolating the device under test is far more important than I previously thought and things like common ground was sometimes a must.

This little cheapo DSO that I now got is far more competent than I'd hoped for and when I discovered the difference between 1x probe and 10x probe I was almost embarrassed... 
I had never used a scope before i my life and I now feel more in control when I construct my contraptions and by just watching a few youtube videos and reading about the basics I now start to understand the whole thing a lot better - thank you to all of you who post videos and write understandable instructions!

What I have discovered that was perhaps not so great is that it's pretty damn impossible to attach the probe without soldering wires to the board, or component, you want to measure.
I've tried with a pair of needle-sharp multimeter attachments but then you're limited by the fact that we're only born with two arms and hands...

Do you always solder on things to hook up to or do you have other means of connecting?

I'm still not yet skilled enough to recommend this scope but if you're in my position and with similar skills, it's a no-brainer really... BUY ONE!

[casper.bang]

Glad to hear you are happy with it Jens. One of the things that surprised me, is how a serial bus inverts (high voltage is logic 0, minus voltage is logic 1) and also the noise level you often see with digital signals. Speaking of noise, could you take a screen-dump of the baseline noise level of the scope? (Turn off noisy equiptment, short the BNC wires and turn the sensitivity to max.)

[JensAndree]

Here's a screenshot with probe shortened out.
There's some sinewave stuff going on but it's not connected to mains earth (old house = no earth) and it's sitting on a fleece cover on my bed which is the opposite to ESD safety guidelines 

[Deusjevoo]

Hi JensAndree,

I know, old topic, almost 9 months since last post.
That also means 9 months of playtime with your Siglent scope.

Bet you know all about electronics by now? ;-)
What you think of your siglent scope now?
Still pleased with it?
Maybe put newer firmwares on it, improving it?

Might get a scope to, just wonder how the siglent came/comes out in the long rung.

Hope to hear from you.

Kind regards.

[MrAureliusR]

Sorry to bump this topic again. I have a feeling JensAndree is no longer with us (though I hope I'm wrong).

Just wanted to say to him -- I'm also a SID fanatic. Built a synthesizer using a SID 6501. Amazing sound, love it to death. Easy to build as well, check out MidiBox!

[M0BSW]

You will find that Siglent/Atten crap has been discussed here in the past. You will also find that a certain Siglent dealer and his sock puppet tried to convince people that Siglent/Atten is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And who would that be?

why are your ears burning 

[M0BSW]

I have bought one of these siglent SDS1102CNL oscilloscopes, I can't find any faults with it, I find it a pure pleasure to use.

[Anora]

I'm about to get a EDU25CL - Digital Storage Scope - 25MHz, 2Ch scope wondering if anybody has had experience using those? I'm upgrading from a DIY one

[tautech]

I'm about to get a EDU25CL - Digital Storage Scope - 25MHz, 2Ch scope wondering if anybody has had experience using those? I'm upgrading from a DIY one

I don't think it's a Siglent and a quick look at the specs indicates it has got little memory depth.
One of the features of a DSO is the ability to capture waveforms and zoom in with the timebase for closer inspection.This is when low memory depth shows as a problem, each step of the timebase results in fewer data points on the display and lower accuracy in reproduction of the captured waveform.
Set your sights on at least 1 Mpts memory depth.

[ebclr]

That's the way

Do a 1 minute hack to all options and 100 Mhz 4 channels.

No other brand offer the same price / usability than this one

[System Error Message]

first i ordered a siglent CNL and than canceled it looking at siglent, than i wanted to get the SDS1000X and found GW on a discount but if the GW wasnt on the discount i'd have gotten the SDS1000x and a rigol ds1054z and hacked it.

Siglents arent terrible, they're actually good but the specs of the CNL and CML are a bit outdated(they were released a long time ago). Still doesnt mean its not for consideration. Dont forget there are also usb scopes. The other thing you want to see is how much noise there is on the input of the scope itself. It also depends on how much you need from a scope.

[tautech]

first i ordered a siglent CNL and than canceled it looking at siglent, than i wanted to get the SDS1000X and found GW on a discount but if the GW wasnt on the discount i'd have gotten the SDS1000x and a rigol ds1054z and hacked it.

Siglents arent terrible, they're actually good but the specs of the CNL and CML are a bit outdated(they were released a long time ago). Still doesnt mean its not for consideration. Dont forget there are also usb scopes. The other thing you want to see is how much noise there is on the input of the scope itself. It also depends on how much you need from a scope.

And that's where the SDS1000X cleans the opposition up, but it's in a very different price bracket to what Anora is looking at.

[Anora]

yea those would be nice but there much much more expensive due to conversion from euro to can or usd to cad. that's why I was looking at that one but you are right about the memory depth I will keep searching for something whit more memory. Would be nice if there was a service that could let me get one on a leas to own

edit:
I think this would do the job
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Hantek-DSO5072P-Digital-Oscilloscope-2Channels-70MHz-1GS-s-7-TFT-WVGA-800x480-/271906321838?hash=item3f4ee135ae:g:MCkAAOSw8-tWX-mX

[System Error Message]

why not look for a 2nd hand siglent? See if you can get your hands on the SDS...CML+ as they have better memory depth.

Compare the value brands such as siglent, rigol, gw and maybe even the OEM rebrands like the link you posted.