Chinese Parts

[ekg98]

I am new getting into this hobby.  I have some parts I have got from Mouser and Digikey also other legitimate sources.  I have also purchased some 555, 556, 4017,4060,4013,LM386, 78xx regulators, etc from China off aliexpress.  Resistors and capacitors and leds too. 

What is the quality of these components and the reliability like.  Should I avoid them for future purchases?  Whats the story on them.  I have not had a problem with the 555 timers but have yet to try out the rest of my new stash.  I indeed have some legitimate TI parts and some of the ones I got from China.  Yes the silk screening looks different and the die may even be different but do these items function the same.  Obviously you wouldn't want to go to the moon with them but for goofing around and making stuff like games and clocks etc are they perfect to use?  Its hard to ignore spending $5 dollars and getting something like 12 chips vs spending $1.30 and getting 50 of them.

What books do you guys recommend.  I am trying to get my hands on a copy of the CMOS cookbook.  I hear this is a good book for CMOS chips.

Thanks
William

[paulca]

There are many threads on this.

Regards quality, the gist is: You just don't know.  You take the risk.

Some of the parts are genuine, just skipping out all the middle men and marketing and buying from the Chinese shop down the street from the factory.

Some are seconds dumped by the original factory due to failing tolerance tests, quickly snapped up and listed on ebay.

Some are clones which have almost the right spec and will be good enough for hobby stuff.

Some are down right fakes which won't work as expected.

There is ZERO quality control.  They pack broken ones along with good ones as they don't test anything.

So if you are buying them for hobby work and the fact the tolerances might be out by a few % doesn't bother you and you are not worried that a batch of components turns up dead on arrival once in a while, go for it.

ALWAYS check the reputable sites first for price.  I got caught on a drunken ebay stint over Christmas when I ordered an ATTiny85 off ebay for £3.85 shipped.  They are £1.036 free delivery from RS Components!  Doh!

One use case I try and avoid using cheap Chinese ebay stuff is anything that runs on mains and I want to run 24/7 when I'm in or out.  I have had Chinese clone modules smoke and burn on the bench, I don't want a 12V AC/DC wall adapter doing the same while I'm at work.

[edavid]

What books do you guys recommend.  I am trying to get my hands on a copy of the CMOS cookbook.  I hear this is a good book for CMOS chips.

Ugh, no.  It has almost zero useful information in it.

[wraper]

I have also purchased some 555, 556, 4017,4060,4013,LM386, 78xx regulators, etc from China off aliexpress.

Most of those likely are counterfeits but LM386, 78xx are almost guaranteed to be counterfeits.

What is the quality of these components and the reliability like.

Crap quality, opamps having completely different specs, voltage regulators not able to supply rated current and failing.

[ekg98]

Any recommendations?  Looked like a fine book when I read a few pages.  I mean I don't even know the whole family of chips and don't even know what 1/4 of them do.

[ekg98]

I figured the case but I thought I would ask.  However I doubt most of the components on mouser or digikey are priced correctly.  Seriously they are making 1000% profit on some of these chips.  Lots of 25 of particular chips would be great but at reasonable prices.  Not $10 per ic type just for 25 chips that's ridiculous.  BGMicro is better and cheaper shipping but they don't have a super great selection of 4000 series.

The price difference is so great.  I am just making doodle widgets that make noise and blinky lights.  Plastic models and small gadgets.  I can risk the duds and failures and flames and smoke and still come ahead after mouser and digikey rape me.

I have also purchased some 555, 556, 4017,4060,4013,LM386, 78xx regulators, etc from China off aliexpress.

Most of those likely are counterfeits but LM386, 78xx are almost guaranteed to be counterfeits.

What is the quality of these components and the reliability like.

Crap quality, opamps having completely different specs, voltage regulators not able to supply rated current and failing.

[soubitos]

just make sure to NOT use potentially unsafe/fake or dubious parts in anything critical or life threatening and you will be fine.. if you must use such components, make sure to take any safety precautions possible and test them before final use. Most of the times you will get proper components but in several cases you will not... if the price is TOO low even for chinese counterparts, then be careful... i ordered a bunch of 10uf smd capacitors advertised as X7R 10% and when i got them they measured from 5-9uf obviously nothing even close to what i paid for then again, i paid less than for crappy caps from legitimate sources so no harm done (i lost time though)....


I think i got a copy of National Semiconductor CMOS family IC's book..... would cost a lot to ship though

[ekg98]

Yeah thats what I figure.  I can tinker with the cheapo ones.  If I break them so be it and if I actually make something I want to use on a daily basis.  Example a wall clock or a stop light in the garage.  Use real deal ones.  Yes for something in the garage or a clock.  Temperature ratings and accuracy are important etc. 

I made a set of dice that were powered off a 9v.  Example that could use cheap chinese crapo.  However imho anything with a clock no. 

Lol don't use them to submit any of my redesigns for the space shuttle guidance systems.  )))

just make sure to NOT use potentially unsafe/fake or dubious parts in anything critical or life threatening and you will be fine.. if you must use such components, make sure to take any safety precautions possible and test them before final use. Most of the times you will get proper components but in several cases you will not... if the price is TOO low even for chinese counterparts, then be careful... i ordered a bunch of 10uf smd capacitors advertised as X7R 10% and when i got them they measured from 5-9uf obviously nothing even close to what i paid for then again, i paid less than for crappy caps from legitimate sources so no harm done (i lost time though)....


I think i got a copy of National Semiconductor CMOS family IC's book..... would cost a lot to ship though

[dmills]

It also depends a bit on how you rate your time.

Particularly for a beginner, having something not work because some bugger has relabelled a transistor and the Base and Emitter are now swapped from what you expect can cause massive fault finding headache, even to the point of giving up. 
For a beginner I would actually say getting known good parts is more important then it is once you get a little experience with fault finding.

Regards, Dan.

[soubitos]

Dont reject them or underestimate them.. you pay far less than buying in the "west" and in many if not most of the time they are perfectly fine parts..... use common sense ie if you find a deal for a 10$ part for only 50c shipping included there is something off about it... So far, out of maybe more than 100-150 orders from China, i can honestly say i am disappointed from what was delivered 2-3 times... but i make sure to check everything i receive before using it... again.. for non critical applications, you are more than fine...

[paulca]

For a bit of research this guy's model is basically, make money on YouTube by making videos of him buying, opening and playing with cheap chinese electronics stuff and then uses the money to buy more cheap chinese stuff.



It's addictive!

There are some things you just can't buy from Digitkey/RS/Farnell.  You try buying a breakout board for a ADC.  They cost £250 upwards.  Similarly try buying simple things like heatsinks.  £5, £10, £20.  Panel voltmeter,  £60!  There are dozens of examples where the big resellers charge a fortune which puts the price point out of the hobby market completely, but the cheap chinese versions are 1/10th the price or less.

[bd139]

Yep. I’m still on the fence with China. I’ve got about 2000 parts winging their way to me now (or sinking after being dumped off a container ship) so will run some proper test cases. I have hundreds of LEDs, a soldering iron, voltage regulators, diodes, transistors, capacitors. Think the whole lot including iron set me back about £25. This is the value proposition.

Just need to test and know what to look out for.

I did find a seller who was selling packs of green blob Mylar caps which aren’t microphonic and of good tolerance (<5%) for less than one MKT1813 film cap from Vishay.

[soubitos]

I expect two packs with both pcb's and parts from JLCPCB/LCSC...
My first order of parts from LCSC went very bad in customs (they shipped EMS instead of registered airmail as requested and customs found my 92 euro worth of pcb+parts to be a128+15clearance fee+24$VAT)... but very well in terms of parts... they got "western"parts at good prices and also (my thing) good quality "brand" Chinese parts... well worth the try.. Buying on aliexpress though is a whole different sport... in a lot of cases i opt for a tested/trusted vendor instead of a slightly cheaper one just to make sure.... not so much for"jellybean" parts but certainly for IC's etc

[bd139]

ICs are risky. Had a few duff ones. I just got 10x AD8307 log amps for £3. They are £100 for the same here. Will see if they work or not!

[soubitos]

Quote from: bd139 on Today at 10:16:55 PM

ICs are risky. Had a few duff ones. I just got 10x AD8307 log amps for £3. They are £100 for the same here. Will see if they work or not!

They probably will work... but how they will operate spec-wise is your key question....
On the other hand, there are quite a lot of interesting chinese ic's

[ekg98]

I wish there was a seller that would release them as Chinese versions and give a datasheet.  I keep seeing MLLSE as a brand name but I don't know what it means.

[phil from seattle]

ICs are risky. Had a few duff ones. I just got 10x AD8307 log amps for £3. They are £100 for the same here. Will see if they work or not!

I probably wouldn't buy any AD stuff from China though, for that price, it's worth risking.

[bd139]

Exactly. I can test them well enough with signal generator and some inline attenuators so fingers crossed.

[Audioguru]

Genuine electronic parts bought locally are so inexpensive since money grows on trees (my government pays me a pension for me doing nothing) that I never buy cheap Chinese junk from ebay, Amazon or Ali.

[Tomorokoshi]

How much time do you spend:

1. Researching the circuit?
2. Designing the circuit?
3. Making the schematic?
4. Ordering the parts?
5. Laying out the parts?
6. Assembling the unit?
7. Testing the unit?
8. Debugging the circuit?
9. Fixing the circuit?

Now apply a wage rate for each of those times. Do the times differ due to the supplier of the parts? If there is x% of risk associated with a part being operational, how many total hours does that add to the work? What is the total cost difference?

[ekg98]

Yeah here its even worse than mouser or digikey.  The only place I know to get parts here wants anywhere from $1.20 to $3 usd per transistor.  I am speaking something like a 2n2222 or a 2n3904.

Genuine electronic parts bought locally are so inexpensive since money grows on trees (my government pays me a pension for me doing nothing) that I never buy cheap Chinese junk from ebay, Amazon or Ali.

[soubitos]

Local price for UNR (is that same as the chinese Uniohm?) 0.01 EURO each 5% smd resistor.....
Say i buy 10 values, 1000pcs each.... 10x1000=10000pcsx0.01=100 euro! shipping not included....
I got them from LSCS now, Uniohm brand 1% 1.3-1.4$ per 1000pcs total 14$ for 10000pcs ... shipping is steep 20+$ minimum BUT you get free shipping for parts if you also order pcbs (even a 2$+shipping~~10$ order)....
Even if i only order the damn resistors, its 30% of the local price.. and we are talking RESISTORS here.... jellybeanier than jellybean LOL!

If you live in EU remember this date... 2020...after that year, ALL packaged from China will pass through customs and you can expect the cost of electronic components to rise sky high

[JacquesBBB]

apart from the already quoted cases, you can also get parts from china that are sold as new, but that are
parts that have been scraped from old equipments and refurbished to look " as new".

These are easily detectable with some habit.

I would advocate to buy for hobby use  from china parts where you can easily see if its working or not  ( lcd  or oled screens for example, sensors, actuators, motors).
or mechanical parts.

Check the prices from reputable sources. Very often, electrolytic caps are not cheaper on ebay than on Mouser or RS.

Do not buy critical parts on ebay or aliexpress.

[wraper]

Local price for UNR (is that same as the chinese Uniohm?) 0.01 EURO each 5% smd resistor.....
Say i buy 10 values, 1000pcs each.... 10x1000=10000pcsx0.01=100 euro! shipping not included....
I got them from LSCS now, Uniohm brand 1% 1.3-1.4$ per 1000pcs total 14$ for 10000pcs ... shipping is steep 20+$ minimum BUT you get free shipping for parts if you also order pcbs (even a 2$+shipping~~10$ order)....
Even if i only order the damn resistors, its 30% of the local price.. and we are talking RESISTORS here.... jellybeanier than jellybean LOL!

If you live in EU remember this date... 2020...after that year, ALL packaged from China will pass through customs and you can expect the cost of electronic components to rise sky high

At TME (distributor located in Poland) For $5 you can buy a reel of 5000 1% Vishay resistors. Or Royal Ohm for $3. Next day EU shipping for around $9.

[ekg98]

And this is why I will never agree with the EU on anything

Local price for UNR (is that same as the chinese Uniohm?) 0.01 EURO each 5% smd resistor.....
Say i buy 10 values, 1000pcs each.... 10x1000=10000pcsx0.01=100 euro! shipping not included....
I got them from LSCS now, Uniohm brand 1% 1.3-1.4$ per 1000pcs total 14$ for 10000pcs ... shipping is steep 20+$ minimum BUT you get free shipping for parts if you also order pcbs (even a 2$+shipping~~10$ order)....
Even if i only order the damn resistors, its 30% of the local price.. and we are talking RESISTORS here.... jellybeanier than jellybean LOL!

If you live in EU remember this date... 2020...after that year, ALL packaged from China will pass through customs and you can expect the cost of electronic components to rise sky high

[phil from seattle]

How much time do you spend:

1. Researching the circuit?
2. Designing the circuit?
3. Making the schematic?
4. Ordering the parts?
5. Laying out the parts?
6. Assembling the unit?
7. Testing the unit?
8. Debugging the circuit?
9. Fixing the circuit?

Now apply a wage rate for each of those times. Do the times differ due to the supplier of the parts? If there is x% of risk associated with a part being operational, how many total hours does that add to the work? What is the total cost difference?

This is a good point but you should always test any Chinese parts before using. So, there is additional time overhead. The real issue for me is if the parts are bad, it delays my project for a least a week if I have to mail-order replacement parts. So, generally, I get commodity parts from China and test them beforehand. I would not rely on a critical part bought that way. Well, with the exception of parts you can't get from distis (WS2812B and CH340 spring to mind).

[wraper]

standard analog are fine

Dunno, many people here received even Fake LM358, not to say there is close zero chance buying genuine "audiophile" opamps.
I personally usually buy only specific stuff where it would need to be counterfeited on silicon die level. Not just some other IC rebadged.

[ekg98]

I bought a set of 78xx regulators.  I am waiting for them to come in.  I was wondering if its good to load test them.  I thought about making a test setup but that does take time and expense.  I need to build a power supply.  Thats one thing I don't have yet is a decent adjustable voltage amperage supply. 

I most likely wouldn't use the 78xx for more than 500ma anyway.  Driving a few seven segments and timing sections etc.  Blinky lights.  CMOS. 

What books do you guys recommend on CMOS chips. 

[eblc1388]

What books do you guys recommend on CMOS chips.

I learn a lot from the book "CMOS Cookbook" by Don Lancaster.

He also authored Cookbooks on TTL and Active Filters. A great author in my view. I'm surprised that some members had remarked that there is nothing useful in the book.

[Specmaster]

When it comes to Chinese items, I check and check usually, I have have failed a few times however, the persons feedback if its good and the price is not the real bargain basement that some sellers offer, then I'm pretty happy to purchase.

However, beware of buying anything mains powered  as their UK plugs come unfused with no provision for a fuse even and also the earth pin is sleeved so that means that once the plug is fully inserted into a 13A socket you loose all grounding so the equipment could be floating then, so always as replace the plug at least and better still buy a decent lead from the UK for the item.. Also you need to open up and check for dodgy terminations, poor earthing and poor solder joints as sometimes the items could have been made by homeworkers who are not always subject to the same tests and inspections as those item made in a proper factory would be.

[ez24]

What books do you guys recommend.  I am trying to get my hands on a copy of the CMOS cookbook.  I hear this is a good book for CMOS chips.

Check Reply #3
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/a/msg1341170/#msg1341170

[SkyMaster]

I figured the case but I thought I would ask.  However I doubt most of the components on mouser or digikey are priced correctly.  Seriously they are making 1000% profit on some of these chips.  Lots of 25 of particular chips would be great but at reasonable prices.  Not $10 per ic type just for 25 chips that's ridiculous.  BGMicro is better and cheaper shipping but they don't have a super great selection of 4000 series.

BG Micro is a surplus type of store. I remember buying from them almost 25 years ago.

Mouser and Digikey have (almost) everything in stock, they ship the same day and depending on your location you can receive your order the next day.

It is entirely possible that you are shopping for through hole components that are now more expensive than their surface mount equivalent, simply because the production volume is less.

Now for the Chinese parts... If electronics for you is a hobby, and you are building circuits to have fun; where is the fun if your circuit is not working (or not working correctly) because you are using counterfeit/fake low cost parts? Not only that, but you may have to wait for weeks to receive your parts.

 

[ekg98]

This is partially true however some of the 4000 series can be twice the cost if your buying 10 vs 100.  Ontop of that mouser ships air most of the time.  The boxes are huge and they charge ridiculous amount for shipping.  Most of the time the shipping is more expensive than the parts I am buying.  I might need $3 in capacitors and maybe 10 resistors and I end up paying 8 bucks for shipping on 4 dollars in parts.  I could save up and order everything at once but then I would have a long wait inbetween working on projects.  I am en massing a quantity of parts over time yes so the situation will improve.  I am keeping my Chinese parts separate from my good ones from mouser.

Don't get me wrong.  I do love mouser and will continue to order from them.  Love the filtering on the search functions etc.  However for small orders and for my sake I don't know what I am looking for sometimes for a project.  Its incredibly hard to find some items in mouser without searching through a long list of parts.  Options are great but for somethings I just don't need that many.  Just looking for say a battery snap or rubber standoffs or rubber feet, etc.

I figured the case but I thought I would ask.  However I doubt most of the components on mouser or digikey are priced correctly.  Seriously they are making 1000% profit on some of these chips.  Lots of 25 of particular chips would be great but at reasonable prices.  Not $10 per ic type just for 25 chips that's ridiculous.  BGMicro is better and cheaper shipping but they don't have a super great selection of 4000 series.

BG Micro is a surplus type of store. I remember buying from them almost 25 years ago.

Mouser and Digikey have (almost) everything in stock, they ship the same day and depending on your location you can receive your order the next day.

It is entirely possible that you are shopping for through hole components that are now more expensive than their surface mount equivalent, simply because the production volume is less.

Now for the Chinese parts... If electronics for you is a hobby, and you are building circuits to have fun; where is the fun if your circuit is not working (or not working correctly) because you are using counterfeit/fake low cost parts? Not only that, but you may have to wait for weeks to receive your parts.

 

[bd139]

Also worth having a look at Tayda Electronics. It’s a step above the unknown and is usually pretty good quality. For example I tend to use the to buy wire from as I don’t need spools of it. 22 awg stuff is like rope compared to the generic Chinese stuff.

Stay away from the unbranded resistors though (they sell royal ohm which are fine though)

[HwAoRrDk]

Also worth having a look at Tayda Electronics. It’s a step above the unknown and is usually pretty good quality. For example I tend to use the to buy wire from as I don’t need spools of it. 22 awg stuff is like rope compared to the generic Chinese stuff.

You should check out CPC for cheap wire. Cheaper than Tayda! I discovered that they have a selection of 'Concordia' brand 24, 22 and 18 AWG wire for dirt cheap. Like, £0.25-0.50 per 10 metres. The only thing is that they have mis-attributed most of it (e.g. 24 AWG attributed as having "0.032mm²" cross-sectional area! ), so it doesn't show up when searching by wire size parameter. It comes up if you filter by brand name and then look at no. of strands / strand size to determine gauge.

[CJay]

You take a risk buying unmounted components from China, many are just outright fakes or poor quality (resistors and capacitors though there's little point in a 1% resistor for many hobbyist experiments, the Chinese 5% ones are perfectly adequate, Chinese multi pack capacitors are almost always rubbish for anything other than the least demanding application)

Semiconductors, while I have had good luck with the bubble gum transistors from China (2N3904/6, PN2222, BC547/557 etc.), I've found I can buy the transistors, regulators and cheap op-amps from local suppliers for very good prices and have them the next working day so it's just not worth the wait to order from China.

Larger chips, I tend not to buy unmounted chips, I buy assembled modules and have, as yet, never had a module that didn't work and they are almost always far cheaper than the cost of the individual components, even when they're not, it's an assembled module that's saved me a ton of time and it means I can spend the time on what I'm trying to achieve instead of debugging the chip implementation.

[bd139]

Also worth having a look at Tayda Electronics. It’s a step above the unknown and is usually pretty good quality. For example I tend to use the to buy wire from as I don’t need spools of it. 22 awg stuff is like rope compared to the generic Chinese stuff.

You should check out CPC for cheap wire. Cheaper than Tayda! I discovered that they have a selection of 'Concordia' brand 24, 22 and 18 AWG wire for dirt cheap. Like, £0.25-0.50 per 10 metres. The only thing is that they have mis-attributed most of it (e.g. 24 AWG attributed as having "0.032mm²" cross-sectional area! ), so it doesn't show up when searching by wire size parameter. It comes up if you filter by brand name and then look at no. of strands / strand size to determine gauge.

I order a lot of stuff from CPC. They're not that great on pricing. I'll give you some comparison:

2n3904 x100 ... CPC (On Semi) £4.80 ... Tayda (Fairchild) £1.47
10k RO 1% 0.25W x50 ... CPC £0.80 ... Tayda £0.44
74LS47 x1 ... CPC £1.19 ... Tayda £0.73

All adds up. Also Tayda stock better lines. Look at the pricing on their JST connectors compared to locally for example. I must have bought 100 shells, pins and headers for less than $2.   The wire from Tayda is also like rope compared to the exact stuff you mention from CPC. I was using that before a bought a few sample stretches to see. Also CPC never seem to have any stock of certain colours hence why I ended up with 10m of pink wire a while back. I have nothing against pink, but when I have a standard colour scheme for wiring, substituting red for pink because the lead time on CPC was 2 months is a bit much.

You take a risk buying unmounted components from China, many are just outright fakes or poor quality (resistors and capacitors though there's little point in a 1% resistor for many hobbyist experiments, the Chinese 5% ones are perfectly adequate, Chinese multi pack capacitors are almost always rubbish for anything other than the least demanding application)

Semiconductors, while I have had good luck with the bubble gum transistors from China (2N3904/6, PN2222, BC547/557 etc.), I've found I can buy the transistors, regulators and cheap op-amps from local suppliers for very good prices and have them the next working day so it's just not worth the wait to order from China.

Larger chips, I tend not to buy unmounted chips, I buy assembled modules and have, as yet, never had a module that didn't work and they are almost always far cheaper than the cost of the individual components, even when they're not, it's an assembled module that's saved me a ton of time and it means I can spend the time on what I'm trying to achieve instead of debugging the chip implementation.

China is ok for stock jellybean items. I keep a lot of parts on hands. Modules I rather like. Some of them are quite good. I have bought a ton of small switching converters recently and they all just work and I can't blow them up however hard I try.

As noted though, some capacitors aren't that great. The small electrolytics are fine, the tants are usually fine, but the big electrolytics and C0G ceramics are shit. I grab Suntan/Vishay ones for that from Rapid/Farnell. X7R ones doesn't matter; any old crap will do for decoupling. Some of the polybox/film ones are microphonic. I haven't had that from the Tayda ones (which are Arcotronics/WIMA)

[wraper]

I buy assembled modules and have, as yet, never had a module that didn't work and they are almost always far cheaper than the cost of the individual components, even when they're not, it's an assembled module that's saved me a ton of time and it means I can spend the time on what I'm trying to achieve instead of debugging the chip implementation.

DC/DC converter modules usually contain fake chips working at much lower frequencies and are completely not up to spec. Wireless modules usually contain counterfeit chips as well and often cause weird-ass issues that genuine ICs don't have.

[paulca]

I buy assembled modules and have, as yet, never had a module that didn't work and they are almost always far cheaper than the cost of the individual components, even when they're not, it's an assembled module that's saved me a ton of time and it means I can spend the time on what I'm trying to achieve instead of debugging the chip implementation.

DC/DC converter modules usually contain fake chips working at much lower frequencies and are completely not up to spec. Wireless modules usually contain counterfeit chips as well and often cause weird-ass issues that genuine ICs don't have.

Any demonstrable examples? 

I know there are Chinese fakes but I think people go too far on that party line.  Remember 99.9% of the "branded" components are made in China.

I have seen many YouTube videos where particulars of modules, include buck/boost converters have been tested against the chip datasheet and been withing a few percent of it... sometimes better.

Not saying these fakes don't exist, but you simply cannot build these buck/boost converters cheaper than they are being sold, even if you buy cheap Chinese components.

Also, check the price of the 100uH inductors on the likes of RS.  £7 each.  China, $1.  For a bit of wire wrapped around a ferite ring.

Someone listed the steps to building a circuit above.  It's relevant in more than one way.  If you take that list and add up the time for each step and plug in the average wage of an Engineer in the west you get a massively high figure compared to plugging in the wage of a Chinese worker.  Then you have to remove all the middle men, distributors, importers, retailers etc. etc. which in west all add HUGE amounts to the cost of a product.

When you do this and then factor in the trade deficits and balancing done to keep the Yen cheap against the dollar you will find these components are cheap from China because "they are cheap from China", not because the parts are actually "cheap" parts.   Take any example component and follow through all the western markup added to it when you buy from farnel.  Then do the same trace for a Chinese online retailer.  We are talking several orders of magnitude in mark up difference.

[Specmaster]

I buy assembled modules and have, as yet, never had a module that didn't work and they are almost always far cheaper than the cost of the individual components, even when they're not, it's an assembled module that's saved me a ton of time and it means I can spend the time on what I'm trying to achieve instead of debugging the chip implementation.

DC/DC converter modules usually contain fake chips working at much lower frequencies and are completely not up to spec. Wireless modules usually contain counterfeit chips as well and often cause weird-ass issues that genuine ICs don't have.

Any demonstrable examples? 

I know there are Chinese fakes but I think people go too far on that party line.  Remember 99.9% of the "branded" components are made in China.

I have seen many YouTube videos where particulars of modules, include buck/boost converters have been tested against the chip datasheet and been withing a few percent of it... sometimes better.

Not saying these fakes don't exist, but you simply cannot build these buck/boost converters cheaper than they are being sold, even if you buy cheap Chinese components.

Also, check the price of the 100uH inductors on the likes of RS.  £7 each.  China, $1.  For a bit of wire wrapped around a ferite ring.

Someone listed the steps to building a circuit above.  It's relevant in more than one way.  If you take that list and add up the time for each step and plug in the average wage of an Engineer in the west you get a massively high figure compared to plugging in the wage of a Chinese worker.  Then you have to remove all the middle men, distributors, importers, retailers etc. etc. which in west all add HUGE amounts to the cost of a product.

When you do this and then factor in the trade deficits and balancing done to keep the Yen cheap against the dollar you will find these components are cheap from China because "they are cheap from China", not because the parts are actually "cheap" parts.   Take any example component and follow through all the western markup added to it when you buy from farnel.  Then do the same trace for a Chinese online retailer.  We are talking several orders of magnitude in mark up difference.

I agree, I think China get to bad a press most of the time. I think that there are 2 major drawbacks to Chinese parts, the first is the length of time they take to arrive which can be weeks and the second is the language barrier when it comes resolving problems, sometimes it is very hard to get them to acknowledge the problem, not that they don't want to help because generally I find them very helpful indeed, but because they sometimes don't understand what we are saying. They need to employ some people who can speak English fluently to fully engage with the English speaking people and resolve problems.

That being said I think I can only recall 2 occasions where I have any problems in communication with them.   

[wraper]

I buy assembled modules and have, as yet, never had a module that didn't work and they are almost always far cheaper than the cost of the individual components, even when they're not, it's an assembled module that's saved me a ton of time and it means I can spend the time on what I'm trying to achieve instead of debugging the chip implementation.

DC/DC converter modules usually contain fake chips working at much lower frequencies and are completely not up to spec. Wireless modules usually contain counterfeit chips as well and often cause weird-ass issues that genuine ICs don't have.

Any demonstrable examples? 

https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Nordic-NRF24L01P-SI24R1-real-fake-copy
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lm3596-switching-regulator-modules/msg1189293/#msg1189293

Yes! I found it strange that the data sheet said the switching frequency is 150KHz but I was getting 50K(see attached).

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lm3596-switching-regulator-modules/msg1189387/#msg1189387

Each and every one of the LM2596 modules I've bought from vendors on the Amazon marketplace were using fake LM2596 chips, running at 51-52 kHz. See scopeshots (BTW, I believe the little bump before the spike to be an artifact due to too many averages - it did not show up in other acquisition modes).

[wraper]

Also, check the price of the 100uH inductors on the likes of RS.  £7 each.  China, $1.  For a bit of wire wrapped around a ferite ring.

Without specifics this comparison is useless, you might compare apples vs oranges. Also there are far cheaper places than RS.

Remember 99.9% of the "branded" components are made in China.

First of all, this is not true at all. If you said in order of like 50%, then I would probably agree. Secondly, don't mix the things together, China is very different, and you should separate what is sold on legit marker and what in Shenzhen sewers.
EDIT, I just took a few reels of components lying nearby:
Country of Origin: Singapore, Mexico, USA, Ireland, Malaysia, Japan, Thailand, China. Actually China seem to be in minority there, and those are pretty cheap components.

[Bud]

Also, check the price of the 100uH inductors on the likes of RS.  £7 each.  China, $1.  For a bit of wire wrapped around a ferite ring.

When writing my investigative post "Project Yaigol" about the piece of shit rigol DS2000 scope i discovered the inductors they used were single use ones, i.e. you cant generally reuse them because the wire is 'soldered' to the terminals, whereas in a normal inductors the wire is 'welded' to the terminals. When unsoldering such SMT inductors from the board the wires may come off of the terminals because of the surface tension of the solder as you pull the inductor away, so you end up with a open circuit. If you do not check the little bastard and solder it back or use it in an other circuit you end up pulling you hair trying to find why the circuit is not working. Also the inductor value may change because of movement of the wire if you try to solder the wire back to the terminal, which in itself is a fun exersise on a 0603 inductor. I found the same to be with chinese RF SMT transformers, the wire is Soldered, not Welded to the package terminals. Single use like condoms, that is.

[bd139]

I don't know any SMD parts that aren't single use. I certainly wouldn't reuse them.

[Specmaster]

Most of them are not marked to show the value anyway so once removed, assuming they remain intact, if they get mixed up with other parts you would have to test them each time in order to identify which part and value they were anyway, apart from that they are so inexpensive its worth your time to recycle them.

[soubitos]

Quote from: Specmaster on Today at 06:34:11 PM

Most of them are not marked to show the value anyway so once removed, assuming they remain intact, if they get mixed up with other parts you would have to test them each time in order to identify which part and value they were anyway, apart from that they are so inexpensive its worth your time to recycle them.

It does not hurt to keep a few computer motherboards and other pcb's in a box somewhere, dead or obsolete or else. I have been saved more than once by getting a capacitor or resistor or diode out of them .... be careful and you CAN reuse smd parts.... of course it all comes down to your tools too, i dont see how you can do it properly without hot air "rework" tool, proper flux, solder, magnification etc.. 0805 and up possibly ok but anything smaller you need more than a soldering iron some 60/40 and a solder sucker .... LOL.....

[Specmaster]

It does not hurt to keep a few computer motherboards and other pcb's in a box somewhere, dead or obsolete or else. I have been saved more than once by getting a capacitor or resistor or diode out of them .... be careful and you CAN reuse smd parts.... of course it all comes down to your tools too, i dont see how you can do it properly without hot air "rework" tool, proper flux, solder, magnification etc.. 0805 and up possibly ok but anything smaller you need more than a soldering iron some 60/40 and a solder sucker .... LOL.....

I have all of those items but I'd have to be really desperate to attempt to recycle them, just the heat stress alone is enough to seriously damage them to the point that their values shift at best and at worst destroy them. 

[bd139]

I spent years working with salvaged parts and I can't be arsed these days. It's too much like hard work.

BTW china win: 200x 5mm UV LEDs £1.67. All work. RS = £69.60.

[soubitos]

I obviously dont imply putting new pcb's together with salvaged parts, that would be... both time consuming, impractical etc but also plain crazy... but, when i need to repair say a motherboard with a fried mosfet another dead mobo has the same part and lies there, then by all means i will go into the trouble and make the effort to salvage it and do the repair (the alternative being ordering parts, waiting, paying too much on shipping for an otherwise cheap part and so on).... if it works and passes testing, stress test if possible etc then it's all good to go... customer saves a LOT of money, gets faster his board or computer or whatever and provided you tell them what you did and that parts used to repair are used etc, its all fine....

Back to CHINESE parts though, i have ordered quite a lot to make repairs... the bigger problem with customers was waiting for the part, their alternative being to pay 5-10-100x as much for parts to repair their product almost always makes that easier...  Most of the times i order multiples of the number required so i create a small stock of parts known to possibly fail (which costs ME nothing).... of course, i have tested vendors etc but for crucial, potentially dangerous parts etc i would either test each and everyone before using or go the high way and pay!

[wraper]

I spent years working with salvaged parts and I can't be arsed these days. It's too much like hard work.

BTW china win: 200x 5mm UV LEDs £1.67. All work. RS = £69.60.

At this price the only thing you can expect is bunch of defective (like current leakage) and unreliable junk.

[Specmaster]

I spent years working with salvaged parts and I can't be arsed these days. It's too much like hard work.

BTW china win: 200x 5mm UV LEDs £1.67. All work. RS = £69.60.

That alone has more then paid for your T12 now.

[Specmaster]

I obviously dont imply putting new pcb's together with salvaged parts, that would be... both time consuming, impractical etc but also plain crazy... but, when i need to repair say a motherboard with a fried mosfet another dead mobo has the same part and lies there, then by all means i will go into the trouble and make the effort to salvage it and do the repair (the alternative being ordering parts, waiting, paying too much on shipping for an otherwise cheap part and so on).... if it works and passes testing, stress test if possible etc then it's all good to go... customer saves a LOT of money, gets faster his board or computer or whatever and provided you tell them what you did and that parts used to repair are used etc, its all fine....

Back to CHINESE parts though, i have ordered quite a lot to make repairs... the bigger problem with customers was waiting for the part, their alternative being to pay 5-10-100x as much for parts to repair their product almost always makes that easier...  Most of the times i order multiples of the number required so i create a small stock of parts known to possibly fail (which costs ME nothing).... of course, i have tested vendors etc but for crucial, potentially dangerous parts etc i would either test each and everyone before using or go the high way and pay!

I always order more then what I need to do a repair with so that I can build up a small stock as well, makes perfect sense. I can also see the logic in what you say about robbing a part from a dead board to get another working. There are people who make a living out doing just that.

[bd139]

I spent years working with salvaged parts and I can't be arsed these days. It's too much like hard work.

BTW china win: 200x 5mm UV LEDs £1.67. All work. RS = £69.60.

That alone has more then paid for your T12 now.

Exactly and if it's as good as people say it is, I'll use my Weller to pay for another T12

[bd139]

I spent years working with salvaged parts and I can't be arsed these days. It's too much like hard work.

BTW china win: 200x 5mm UV LEDs £1.67. All work. RS = £69.60.

At this price the only thing you can expect is bunch of defective (like current leakage) and unreliable junk.

Seem ok to me as do the lowest bidding christmas lights we've had for nearly 10 years now.

45 of them:

[soubitos]

Indeed, like the infamous Louis Rossman who unless sourcing chips from donor pcbs would be next to impossible to fix apple products as he very well explains...  and that is a business in the middle of NY, USA you can imagine a hobbyist in the middle of nowhere in a village somewhere anywhere... where X distributor asks 20-30 euro just for shipping even if you only order a bunch of voltage regulators or caps to fix a dead monitor.....

[soubitos]

Quote from: wraper on Today at 07:04:43 PM

>Quote from: bd139 on Today at 06:47:28 PM

I spent years working with salvaged parts and I can't be arsed these days. It's too much like hard work.

BTW china win:

200x 5mm UV LEDs £1.67. All work. RS = £69.60.

At this price the only thing you can expect is bunch of defective (like current leakage) and unreliable junk.

At this price, what i would expect is a few of them to fail or arrive as DoA, you can always order more than you need, as a matter of fact, you should order more than you need LOL

[bd139]

At this price, what i would expect is a few of them to fail or arrive as DoA, you can always order more than you need, as a matter of fact, you should order more than you need LOL

Out of 200, none DoA. I needed 147.

Only took 2 weeks to get here as well.

The funny thing is if I hold one next to a decent high brightness red one from RS (Lite-On) they look EXACTLY the same, even down to the bonding and leads in the package.

[Specmaster]

That is more then likely because they also source theirs from China as well. I think you would find that a lot of the RS stuff comes China and the surrounding area.

[bd139]

A huge amount of semiconductors come from around there, Thailand, Japan, Malaysia etc. My Keysight U1241C was made in Malaysia

This is slightly fascinating: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/how-leds-are-made

[Specmaster]

Fascinating, I had pictures in my mind of these being made automated machines in their 1,000s. When you consider just how many there are in a single light fitting, there must many many factories all churning these out in order to meet the demand for them.

[wraper]

Fascinating, I had pictures in my mind of these being made automated machines in their 1,000s. When you consider just how many there are in a single light fitting, there must many many factories all churning these out in order to meet the demand for them.

This is basically how LED dies are packaged in a Shenzhen garage, not reputable factory.

[wraper]

Maybe not the best, but still day and night compared with that garbage factory.

[Warhawk]

Indeed, like the infamous Louis Rossman who unless sourcing chips from donor pcbs would be next to impossible to fix apple products as he very well explains...  and that is a business in the middle of NY, USA you can imagine a hobbyist in the middle of nowhere in a village somewhere anywhere... where X distributor asks 20-30 euro just for shipping even if you only order a bunch of voltage regulators or caps to fix a dead monitor.....

Not all of them ask for 20-30 euro. Furthermore keep in mind that cost of human work is higher than the cost of the material. This is right, right? Or.. unless you want to live in China.

[bd139]

Fascinating, I had pictures in my mind of these being made automated machines in their 1,000s. When you consider just how many there are in a single light fitting, there must many many factories all churning these out in order to meet the demand for them.

This is basically how LED dies are packaged in a Shenzhen garage, not reputable factory.

And Hewlett Packard back in the day...

[Warhawk]

If you live in EU remember this date... 2020...after that year, ALL packaged from China will pass through customs and you can expect the cost of electronic components to rise sky high

Where does this information come from, please?

[wraper]

Fascinating, I had pictures in my mind of these being made automated machines in their 1,000s. When you consider just how many there are in a single light fitting, there must many many factories all churning these out in order to meet the demand for them.

This is basically how LED dies are packaged in a Shenzhen garage, not reputable factory.

And Hewlett Packard back in the day...

Like in 60's - 70's, except they did it in a clean room.

[Warhawk]

My experience with LEDs from ebay (China) is bad. I bought a bag of white LEDs, all of them have terminal marking reversed. Some of them fail after 20 minutes or during vibrations.
My friend used another ebay LEDs for homemade hall-light (white and blue, pretty ugly). All of them failed after about a year. They still consume current but don't lit any more.

No thank you China, I am not going to support this. I actually reduced buying products directly from China to bare minimum. <rant> People there deserve better life and I am not going to support this government supported counterfeit slavery business </rant> 

[bd139]

Fascinating, I had pictures in my mind of these being made automated machines in their 1,000s. When you consider just how many there are in a single light fitting, there must many many factories all churning these out in order to meet the demand for them.

This is basically how LED dies are packaged in a Shenzhen garage, not reputable factory.

And Hewlett Packard back in the day...

Like in 60's - 70's, except they did it in a clean room.

It most likely wasn't actually a clean room. The wafer fab wasn't even to start with; that didn't come in until integrated circuit production. The LEDs in the article above are just packaging wafers they buy in from the fabs.

Fairchild's relatively primitive diffusion apparatus for example:



Your nice Mullard transistors made into the 1970s for example were assembled by old ladies with hair nets as the main precaution. If you took a good sniff at a fresh crate of them you could smell the nicotine.

[Specmaster]

Most of today's big and well known companies started of in a shed, garage or similar so how can judge them for that? Here is proof that there are also companies in China, even in Shenzen that are world acclaimed for quality and have the certificates of approval to prove it. 

[ez24]

One method I just started using with Aliexpress, is sort on orders.  I think it might help.  I then look at the description and buy if they make sense.  Seems I may have better luck if I buy something from someone who has sold a lot of them and not from someone who has not sold any.

What I have found out, it is easy to order but hard to track.  Anyone got any suggestions on how to track Aliexpress orders.  I have about 100 outstanding orders and it takes me a long time to check in an item.  What irritates me the most is "Fund Processing".

[wraper]

Anything to back your shit up?

Well at least if you look ar led modules on ebay, most of them are assembled from defective LEDs. Also look a Warhawk post obove about expierience with such leds. It's just much easier to notice defects when they are put in module if running those modules on low current.

[paulca]

On the flip side, I moved into an appartment with a 400W uplighter that uses flood light bulbs.

I was buying them at £5.99 each from Homebase.  They were blowing every 3-4 months.

I decided to buy a 5 pack of 300W bulbs from china on ebay...  5 years later I am still on the first bulb.  None have blown.

[SkyMaster]

Remember 99.9% of the "branded" components are made in China.

First of all, this is not true at all. If you said in order of like 50%, then I would probably agree. Secondly, don't mix the things together, China is very different, and you should separate what is sold on legit marker and what in Shenzhen sewers.
EDIT, I just took a few reels of components lying nearby:
Country of Origin: Singapore, Mexico, USA, Ireland, Malaysia, Japan, Thailand, China. Actually China seem to be in minority there, and those are pretty cheap components.

Wraper is totally right; the vast majority of the genuine electronics components (semiconductors) are NOT made in China.

I would add Philippines and Taiwan to the list wraper made. The Country of Origin is always specified on components bought from Mouser or Digikey.

 

[SkyMaster]

The funny thing is if I hold one next to a decent high brightness red one from RS (Lite-On) they look EXACTLY the same, even down to the bonding and leads in the package.

This is how counterfeit components look like 


 

[Specmaster]

Remember 99.9% of the "branded" components are made in China.

First of all, this is not true at all. If you said in order of like 50%, then I would probably agree. Secondly, don't mix the things together, China is very different, and you should separate what is sold on legit marker and what in Shenzhen sewers.
EDIT, I just took a few reels of components lying nearby:
Country of Origin: Singapore, Mexico, USA, Ireland, Malaysia, Japan, Thailand, China. Actually China seem to be in minority there, and those are pretty cheap components.

Wraper is totally right; the vast majority of the genuine electronics components (semiconductors) are NOT made in China.

I would add Philippines and Taiwan to the list wraper made. The Country of Origin is always specified on components bought from Mouser or Digikey.

 

My understanding of that quote (in red) was that not components but finished electronic equipment, many for well known international brands are made or assembled in China and sold worldwide under the known brand name, just look on the back of equipment like TV, radios, tablets, mobile phones, calculators etc etc. I think the percentage is wide of the mark however but certainly there is a huge amount of stuff on sale in the shops that originated from China in one form or another. This clearly demonstrates that they have the technical know how on how to produce some first class gear/equipment. Anyone who ignores this is in denial, China is one of the worlds great industrial country's and has a huge economy and standing in the world rankings.

You can buy shitty items made locally in your own country even, its up each one of us to do our own homework and decide what to buy and from where and if you choose not to buy Chinese thats up to you, but I for one will continue buying their products if I deem them to be suitable for my requirements and take advantage of the savings to be had while they last.

[wraper]

My understanding of that quote (in red) was that not components but finished electronic equipment, many for well known international brands are made or assembled in China and sold worldwide under the known brand name, just look on the back of equipment like TV, radios, tablets, mobile phones, calculators etc etc. I think the percentage is wide of the mark however but certainly there is a huge amount of stuff on sale in the shops that originated from China in one form or another. This clearly demonstrates that they have the technical know how on how to produce some first class gear/equipment. Anyone who ignores this is in denial, China is one of the worlds great industrial country's and has a huge economy and standing in the world rankings.

You can buy shitty items made locally in your own country even, its up each one of us to do our own homework and decide what to buy and from where and if you choose not to buy Chinese thats up to you, but I for one will continue buying their products if I deem them to be suitable for my requirements and take advantage of the savings to be had while they last.

No, this tread is about components and that quote says particularly about components, nothing about equipment. Also note that many semiconductor components which are made in China or in other country, often have dies diffused in some completely different country. For example I have analog devices ICs which are diffused in Ireland but assembled in Malaysia. It's very obvious if you look at AMD CPU's




As of where equipment is assembled. If you look at, say, printers, you'll have a hard time finding one which is made in China. Vast majority of them are made in Vietnam, be it Canon, HP or something else.

[SkyMaster]

I can make a LED that looks exactly like a Lite On one, and I can put my brand on it, and that's nothing counterfeit (whether it infringes Lite On IP is a different story) as long as I don't sell it as Lite On.

Yes you could. But why would an unknown manufacturer makes a component that look exactly like the one made by a well known manufacturer?

Unless it is advertised as a direct drop in replacement, your LED would be considered as an imitation. An imitation is not the real thing. A fake component is an imitation.

 

[wraper]

I can bet you with my bottom dollar that you can't distinguish the difference between a Murata 0402 0.1uF 15V X5R and same spec capacitor from AVX.

Actually they look quiet different under microscope. If you mix both together, for me it would be quiet easy task to separate both types. Actually I find that Samsung, AVX, Murata, Kemet which I use, generally have their own look.

[wraper]

Color is more dependent on capacitor ratings. What I find is different is shape, surface, shape of terminal metallization. I find that Kemet 0603 capacitors are around 0.1mm shorter than the rest. Samsung often has rough surface. Murata has corners rounded in certain way and similar things.

[soubitos]

Quote from: wraper on Today at 03:12:35 AM

No, this tread is about components and that quote says particularly about components, nothing about equipment. Also note that many semiconductor components which are made in China or in other country, often have dies diffused in some completely different country. For example I have analog devices ICs which are diffused in Ireland but assembled in Malaysia. It's very obvious if you look at AMD CPU's

As of where equipment is assembled. If you look at, say, printers, you'll have a hard time finding one which is made in China. Vast majority of them are made in Vietnam, be it Canon, HP or something else.

How do i put this so as to avoid conflict?

Ok... shoot..... This is most probably a tax evasion thing... by doing PART of a job on a component to a country which is actually importing it, it brings down taxes etc... at least it used to do when ie european companies went to China, leased a chinese factory for the duration of the production run for their order, this made their order an EU product avoiding import taxes etc.....

[Specmaster]

Quote from: wraper on Today at 03:12:35 AM

No, this tread is about components and that quote says particularly about components, nothing about equipment. Also note that many semiconductor components which are made in China or in other country, often have dies diffused in some completely different country. For example I have analog devices ICs which are diffused in Ireland but assembled in Malaysia. It's very obvious if you look at AMD CPU's

As of where equipment is assembled. If you look at, say, printers, you'll have a hard time finding one which is made in China. Vast majority of them are made in Vietnam, be it Canon, HP or something else.

How do i put this so as to avoid conflict?

Ok... shoot..... This is most probably a tax evasion thing... by doing PART of a job on a component to a country which is actually importing it, it brings down taxes etc... at least it used to do when ie european companies went to China, leased a chinese factory for the duration of the production run for their order, this made their order an EU product avoiding import taxes etc.....

Er no, if as you say they were an European company then going to China and leasing a factory does not mean their order is an European order therefore avoiding import taxes etc, they already are a European company. They go to China because the labour rates there are so low and the Chinese Government make it attractive to companies to go there and in turn boost the Chinese economy, that it is a financial gain to them and that often means the closing down of their European factories.

[wraper]

This is most probably a tax evasion thing... by doing PART of a job on a component to a country which is actually importing it, it brings down taxes etc... at least it used to do when ie european companies went to China, leased a chinese factory for the duration of the production run for their order, this made their order an EU product avoiding import taxes etc.....

This won't make taxes lower. They do the most important part of the job in much more advanced factory with tight control and do packaging somewhere else to save money. Do not forget that you cannot open a business in China yourself, more then half must be owned by Chinese. If you open semiconductor factory there, it means you give away/leak the most advanced technologies you have.

[bd139]

People do part of the manufacturing in China etc because it's insane running supply chain management half way across the planet. Lead times are bad enough without adding distance to the problem.

[paulca]

Anything to back your shit up?

Well at least if you look ar led modules on ebay, most of them are assembled from defective LEDs. Also look a Warhawk post obove about expierience with such leds. It's just much easier to notice defects when they are put in module if running those modules on low current.

So there have never been duff products sold be reputable manufacturers inside or outside of China?

It seems that Intel have been shipping duff insecure chips for the past ten years and if malware-ists figure out how to exploit it, it could be a game changer for IT security.

Granted the probability of a duff product being sold by dubious ebay sellers is higher.  However are we talking about duff chinese products or duff chinese sellers?  You can find duff sellers in every local market in every country.  The 'good' sellers remove a duff product from sale and accept returns, the 'duff' sellers continue to sell them and try and fob off returns/refunds.

[bd139]

You can find duff sellers in every local market in every country.  The 'good' sellers remove a duff product from sale and accept returns, the 'duff' sellers continue to sell them and try and fob off returns/refunds.

[wraper]

It seems that Intel have been shipping duff insecure chips for the past ten years and if malware-ists figure out how to exploit it, it could be a game changer for IT security.

Sorry, but mentioning security flaw in a super complex product is completely irrelevant to this topic.

The 'good' sellers remove a duff product from sale and accept returns, the 'duff' sellers continue to sell them and try and fob off returns/refunds.

I've yet to see a Chinese seller who stopped selling counterfeit product when been told so. Likely because seller knew this to begin with or just does not care.

[bd139]

I like my counterfeit products! 

[paulca]

Sorry, but mentioning security flaw in a super complex product is completely irrelevant to this topic.

I'm sorry, but it is.  As you seem to be implying that if you buy brand name from reputably suppliers they will meet their datasheet spec.  You are getting the milk of the goddesses direct from the teet.  There are dodgy products sold by reputable manufacturers and USA/UK companies that do NOT meet their most fundamental datasheet specs.

Have Intel/AMD/ARM processors been withdrawn from sale?  No.

Will Intel/AMD/ARM accept returns?  No.

Will Intel/AMD/ARM accept damage claims for when this gets exploited?  No.

Also, Intel knew about this long ago but didn't go public.

So whats the difference?

[paulca]

I like my counterfeit products! 

LOL.  If they work, why not?

I've had my failures with cheap goods, not just electronics, but I knew what I was getting into.

However I will stop short of saying "You get what you pay for", because in modern capitalism and marketing this is the biggest lie they want you to believe.  The price of goods has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how much they are worth to the manufacturer.  The price of goods is far more aligned with what they think you will pay.   The only connection costs of goods has to price is if the consumer will not pay "cost of goods" + "profit" then it's usually not worth making the product.  Although some manufacturers will sell sub cost for marketing purposes.

[Specmaster]

I've just looked at some of my gear to see where it was made.

Samsung Galaxy S3 phone Korea.
Samsung J5(2016) phone Vietnam but the battery which is original China.
Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro tablet gives the impression that its made in Yately, UK I doubt that because I think that is the UK office.
iPad Air, made in China
iPod Touch, made in China,
Acer Iconia tablets, Made in China
Power supply for a Korean monitor, made in China
Matsui DAB radio, made in China

[paulca]

Let's see how this unfolds.

Indeed.  I spotted a few news stories this morning suggesting it might not be fixable with a microcode patch/update.  If it's locked into hardware this is incredibly serious for the whole IT industry.

Intel/AMD are large companies, but replacing every active processor in operation that suffers the bug is not feasible.  Nor is running an insecure processor in production (or even in domestic).

With this bug, you can, I believe capture sensitive data from online banking applications, private cryptography keys, and even toggle access and authorisation bits in other processes memory.  It's like going back to the 8bit days and 16bit days of hacking games by hacking their memory.

[wraper]

I've yet to see a Chinese seller who stopped selling counterfeit product when been told so. Likely because seller knew this to begin with or just does not care.

They 100% know it, but I don't think they are knowingly scamming you. Living in China, you will gain a natural sense towards fake products just from the wording, whenever your guts tell you it's fake, then it's fake.

So it's likely they know it's fake, and they presume you know that, and you are willingly buying it for cheap. You can't just put "fake" in product description because eBay will unlist it, so if you want to sell a fake, use the fake wording instead.

Dunno, it says 100% Genuine when there is no chance this happening.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-Audio-OP-AMP-IC-ANALOG-DEVICES-SOP-8-AD797BR-AD797BRZ-100-Genuine-and-New/401446550787?epid=1946042631&hash=item5d78143d03:g:fdwAAOSwzXxaABPo

[Specmaster]

A product is only fake if it is sold and advertised as the real original thing that it is cloning and this can be done either the manufacturer if they brand as the original and make look exactly the same, or by the retailer/seller, in other words if you ask for a particular item from a reputable maker and they sell something that isn't then they are guilty of selling a fake item.

If an item looks the same or very similar but has a different brand name and proudly carries the name on it, the point of sale and or advertising makes no direct reference or hints to the original and carries a lower selling price then I don't believe that Ebay wouldn't or couldn't do anything about it or the seller because they are not misleading anyone.

[paulca]

Dunno, it says 100% Genuine when there is no chance this happening.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-Audio-OP-AMP-IC-ANALOG-DEVICES-SOP-8-AD797BR-AD797BRZ-100-Genuine-and-New/401446550787?epid=1946042631&hash=item5d78143d03:g:fdwAAOSwzXxaABPo

Can you prove it's fake?  Just because it's cheaper than mainstream western outlets doesn't make it so.

There was a recent case raised by Lacoste regarding retailers selling counterfeit t-shirts for 1/10th the price of the original.  Their counterfeiting suit failed as the shirts were found to be genuine articles just without the brand name mark up. 

[wraper]

Dunno, it says 100% Genuine when there is no chance this happening.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-Audio-OP-AMP-IC-ANALOG-DEVICES-SOP-8-AD797BR-AD797BRZ-100-Genuine-and-New/401446550787?epid=1946042631&hash=item5d78143d03:g:fdwAAOSwzXxaABPo

Can you prove it's fake?  Just because it's cheaper than mainstream western outlets doesn't make it so.

There was a recent case raised by Lacoste regarding retailers selling counterfeit t-shirts for 1/10th the price of the original.  Their counterfeiting suit failed as the shirts were found to be genuine articles just without the brand name mark up.

Genuine AD797 do not exist at this price, that's a well known fact among those who have a little clue about audio opamps. It's one of the most counterfeited opamps. Not to say that's a counterfeit part on the photo. Also I received fake UV EPROMs from them. AMD part from 80's with higer Vpp and completely different die sold as ST made in 2008.

[wraper]

There was a recent case raised by Lacoste regarding retailers selling counterfeit t-shirts for 1/10th the price of the original.  Their counterfeiting suit failed as the shirts were found to be genuine articles just without the brand name mark up.

Proof or this did not happen.

[paulca]

There was a recent case raised by Lacoste regarding retailers selling counterfeit t-shirts for 1/10th the price of the original.  Their counterfeiting suit failed as the shirts were found to be genuine articles just without the brand name mark up.

Proof or this did not happen.

I'm not searching for counterfeit goods in work! LOL

They were genuine shirts being sold out the back door of the factory.  So still illegal, but not counterfeiting.

[bd139]

This is normal for a lot of factories that produce the stuff. They do "night runs" which the bosses turn a blind eye to as they're getting a cash backhander. Where do you think those nice iPhone 6s cases come from that are exactly the same as the ones from Apple Store but only cost £4? Right out of the same factory!

[Specmaster]

Yep, there has always been a back door into most factories and I think that there will always be one as long as people are involved in the manufacturing process.

[wraper]

This is normal for a lot of factories that produce the stuff. They do "night runs" which the bosses turn a blind eye to as they're getting a cash backhander. Where do you think those nice iPhone 6s cases come from that are exactly the same as the ones from Apple Store but only cost £4? Right out of the same factory!

Bull fucking shit, that's a bedtime story for kids told by counterfeit and replica sellers. Sure this can happen sometimes but not nearly in such quantities.

exactly the same

No they are not, they can be very very close in their looks but not 100% the same.

[paulca]

Wrapper do you work for Apple?

[wraper]

Wrapper do you work for Apple?

No, I work for anti BS agency. And I hate apple.

[Specmaster]

This is normal for a lot of factories that produce the stuff. They do "night runs" which the bosses turn a blind eye to as they're getting a cash backhander. Where do you think those nice iPhone 6s cases come from that are exactly the same as the ones from Apple Store but only cost £4? Right out of the same factory!

Bull fucking shit, that's a bedtime story for kids told by counterfeit and replica sellers. Sure this can happen sometimes but not nearly in such quantities.

exactly the same

No they are not, they can be very very close in their looks but not 100% the same.

Bullshit I hear you cry, well I'm here to tell that it is entirely possible, even without a "night run".

I used to work for a very large electrical accessory manufacturing company here in the UK and we were often made aware of loads and loads of goods that were being offered on the market at below wholesale prices. This was looked into and it was suspected that it was goods that were theoretically destined for export markets that were somehow coming back into the UK supply chain but without all the UK taxation being applied to them because they were supposed to have been exported.

This was infact eventually found to be the case because subsequent export orders, regardless of the size (and we were talking of many container loads of goods), were marked with an invisible marking system and sometime later goods with these markings on them were found to have crept back into the wholesalers premises up and down the country. Someone had found a way of swindling the Government out of tax payments and it also put the whole UK sales force of the company under extreme pressure because while they were reporting their beliefs that something like this was happening but management did not share their believe and implied that they were incapable of selling.

So there we have it, sometimes counterfeit goods are not counterfeit at all but are the subject of an elaborate scheme to defraud governments of the local tax revenue that they are entitled to. There is no such thing as a fool prove system, someone, somewhere is either circumventing it or working out how to. 

[wraper]

Bullshit I hear you cry, well I'm here to tell that it is entirely possible, even without a "night run".

I used to work for a very large electrical accessory manufacturing company here in the UK and we were often made aware of loads and loads of goods that were being offered on the market at below wholesale prices. This was looked into and it was suspected that it was goods that were theoretically destined for export markets that were somehow coming back into the UK supply chain but without all the UK taxation being applied to them because they were supposed to have been exported.

This was infact eventually found to be the case because subsequent export orders, regardless of the size (and we were talking of many container loads of goods), were marked with an invisible marking system and sometime later goods with these markings on them were found to have crept back into the wholesalers premises up and down the country. Someone had found a way of swindling the Government out of tax payments and it also put the whole UK sales force of the company under extreme pressure because while they were reporting their beliefs that something like this was happening but management did not share their believe and implied that they were incapable of selling.

I doubt they were sold at 20% of a legit item cost. Sorry but there cannot be several times more items than legit ones made at the same factory by ghost shift, and then sold for a small fraction of the cost. Look at apple chargers sold for a few bucks, they look completely legit until you open them.

So there we have it, sometimes counterfeit goods are not counterfeit at all but are the subject of an elaborate scheme to defraud governments of the local tax revenue that they are entitled to. There is no such thing as a fool prove system, someone, somewhere is either circumventing it or working out how to.

Which I exactly said:

Sure this can happen sometimes but not nearly in such quantities.

[bd139]

I doubt they were sold at 20% of legit item cost. Sorry but there cannot be several times more items that legit ones made in the same factory by ghost shift, and then sold at a small fraction of the cost. Look at apple chargers sold for a few bucks, they look completely legit until you open them.

That's not going to happen to complex things like chargers because the BOM is quite high but simple assemblies, parts etc are churned out by the truck load. Even a batch of QA failures destined for the skip will end up back on the market unless you powder the things.

You also need to consider that the management of these companies are complicit with it as well.

This is SOP for a lot of companies as well. This is quite close to home because my father ran a rather large import and assembly operation on PC hardware into Europe in the 1980s. He was larger than Dell were then to give you an idea. A lot of the kit he bought in from Taiwan was done on night runs because it was cheaper. They would take orders. They would bring staff in, the lot. We're talking things from AT motherboards, IO cards, cases, the lot. They had their own black supply chains running. He was getting people to lug back suitcases full of RAM as hand luggage at the time as you could skip duty being paid. Think half a million quid in a suitcase.

Incidentally this is why he no longer exists. Good at supply chain management, terrible at marketing.

[wraper]

That's not going to happen to complex things like chargers because the BOM is quite high but simple assemblies, parts etc are churned out by the truck load. Even a batch of QA failures destined for the skip will end up back on the market unless you powder the things.

Again, business cannot do 90% of production through the back door, maybe with some rare exceptions. With modern technology it's rather easy to 3D scan such item and make a very similar knockoff. Also blueskull can confirm how designs are leaked from legit factories and "shared" thus providing an easy way to replicate. But it's a complete BS saying those knockoffs are coming from the same factories as a general case. If those are genuine "ghost shift" items, they will also be priced accordingly. Not 5x cheaper.

[bd139]

The problem is no one knows. However do you think a £35 phone case costs £4 to make. More £0.20. Is it worth spinning up pretty good quality high volume tooling for that margin? No, not with the competition out there.

Also don’t forget when the buyer cuts you off, are you going to fold the line or just carry on producing shit? Sell the factory and equipment. Contract voided. Everything is run under holding companies for a reason.

[Specmaster]

Bullshit I hear you cry, well I'm here to tell that it is entirely possible, even without a "night run".

I used to work for a very large electrical accessory manufacturing company here in the UK and we were often made aware of loads and loads of goods that were being offered on the market at below wholesale prices. This was looked into and it was suspected that it was goods that were theoretically destined for export markets that were somehow coming back into the UK supply chain but without all the UK taxation being applied to them because they were supposed to have been exported.

This was infact eventually found to be the case because subsequent export orders, regardless of the size (and we were talking of many container loads of goods), were marked with an invisible marking system and sometime later goods with these markings on them were found to have crept back into the wholesalers premises up and down the country. Someone had found a way of swindling the Government out of tax payments and it also put the whole UK sales force of the company under extreme pressure because while they were reporting their beliefs that something like this was happening but management did not share their believe and implied that they were incapable of selling.

I doubt they were sold at 20% of a legit item cost. Sorry but there cannot be several times more items than legit ones made at the same factory by ghost shift, and then sold for a small fraction of the cost. Look at apple chargers sold for a few bucks, they look completely legit until you open them.

So there we have it, sometimes counterfeit goods are not counterfeit at all but are the subject of an elaborate scheme to defraud governments of the local tax revenue that they are entitled to. There is no such thing as a fool prove system, someone, somewhere is either circumventing it or working out how to.

Sure this can happen sometimes but not nearly in such quantities.

Don't you believe it. Speak to any of the British electrical manufacturers, accessories, cable, distribution, lighting, cable management, power distribution and control, all of those sectors have suffered massively by such fraudsters and I expect similar scans are still happening.

[Specmaster]

That's not going to happen to complex things like chargers because the BOM is quite high but simple assemblies, parts etc are churned out by the truck load. Even a batch of QA failures destined for the skip will end up back on the market unless you powder the things.

Again, business cannot do 90% of production through the back door, maybe with some rare exceptions. With modern technology it's rather easy to 3D scan such item and make a very similar knockoff. Also blueskull can confirm how designs are leaked from legit factories and "shared" thus providing an easy way to replicate. But it's a complete BS saying those knockoffs are coming from the same factories as a general case. If those are genuine "ghost shift" items, they will also be priced accordingly. Not 5x cheaper.

Who said anything about ghost shifts or 90%, only you. Just 20% can do massive damage to a company, that's the difference between profit and a loss. No such thing as a ghost shift, just plain old ordinary night shift is all that is required. Office staff do not work nights but factory workers do a few bent ones can shift a lot of gear.

[wraper]

That's not going to happen to complex things like chargers because the BOM is quite high but simple assemblies, parts etc are churned out by the truck load. Even a batch of QA failures destined for the skip will end up back on the market unless you powder the things.

Again, business cannot do 90% of production through the back door, maybe with some rare exceptions. With modern technology it's rather easy to 3D scan such item and make a very similar knockoff. Also blueskull can confirm how designs are leaked from legit factories and "shared" thus providing an easy way to replicate. But it's a complete BS saying those knockoffs are coming from the same factories as a general case. If those are genuine "ghost shift" items, they will also be priced accordingly. Not 5x cheaper.

Who said anything about ghost shifts or 90%, only you. Just 20% can do massive damage to a company, that's the difference between profit and a loss. No such thing as a ghost shift, just plain old ordinary night shift is all that is required. Office staff do not work nights but factory workers do a few bent ones can shift a lot of gear.

Exactly. But some of you here claim that what's available are products from legit factories. I say that's BS because you cannot make that much stuff as is available on the market through the back door of a legit factory.

[soubitos]

doesn't need to come out of the back door really... there are many cases the "factory" is simply a chinese subcontractor.. there are lots of cases they are the original manufacturer and they sell the same product to the western "brand" while they also sell it as chinese or any other brand product....

[wraper]

doesn't need to come out of the back door really... there are many cases the "factory" is simply a chinese subcontractor.. there are lots of cases they are the original manufacturer and they sell the same product to the western "brand" while they also sell it as chinese or any other brand product....

Look, you are now mixing completely unrelated things together. This is called OEM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_equipment_manufacturer
It has completely nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

[Specmaster]

That's not going to happen to complex things like chargers because the BOM is quite high but simple assemblies, parts etc are churned out by the truck load. Even a batch of QA failures destined for the skip will end up back on the market unless you powder the things.

Again, business cannot do 90% of production through the back door, maybe with some rare exceptions. With modern technology it's rather easy to 3D scan such item and make a very similar knockoff. Also blueskull can confirm how designs are leaked from legit factories and "shared" thus providing an easy way to replicate. But it's a complete BS saying those knockoffs are coming from the same factories as a general case. If those are genuine "ghost shift" items, they will also be priced accordingly. Not 5x cheaper.

Who said anything about ghost shifts or 90%, only you. Just 20% can do massive damage to a company, that's the difference between profit and a loss. No such thing as a ghost shift, just plain old ordinary night shift is all that is required. Office staff do not work nights but factory workers do a few bent ones can shift a lot of gear.

Exactly. But some of you here claim that what's available are products from legit factories. I say that's BS because you cannot make that much stuff as is available on the market through the back door of a legit factory.

You are hung up on the back door, that's only one possible route and often these "things" only happen on a particular product now and then but when they do it is noticeable.

[Specmaster]

Wrapper do you work for Apple?

No, I work for anti BS agency. And I hate apple.

What is this Agency and where is it based, better still does it exist or is it just BS🤣🤣

[GigaJoe]

Regarding "polida" - unfortunately i see the opposite , purchased power transistors a few time -  all fake, soic8 popular chips - fake .
knowing a few pals, they has the same experience , picture and received items are different , usually i'm walk around the polida offer ...

[soubitos]

Quote from: wraper on Today at 06:56:09 PM

>[size=78%]Look, you are now mixing completely unrelated things together. This is called OEM [/size][/size][size=78%]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_equipment_manufacturer[/size]
[/size][size=78%]It has completely nothing to do with what we are discussing here.[/size]

I am in a position to know what an OEM really is...

As i do know these days, most of the "brand" names in reality are the product of the OEM but the consumer knows only the brand name so, when you see the OEM product you call it fake or counterfeit etc... that is what i wanted to add to the discussion you know it happens, you know it is a "route" of "fakes" to appear in the market so i now go back to do something more productive....

[paulca]

I am in a position to know what an OEM really is...

But can you use the forum's OEM PHPBB tags and quote properly?

[bd139]

 

[soubitos]

Quote from: paulca on Today at 11:08:32 PM

>Quote from: soubitos on Today at 09:33:48 PM

I am in a position to know what an OEM really is...

But can you use the forum's OEM PHPBB tags and quote properly?

That was supposed to be mean or funny?

[tautech]

I am in a position to know what an OEM really is...

But can you use the forum's OEM PHPBB tags and quote properly?

That's not the problem for soubitos.
He needs to turn OFF the WYSIWYG editor in his profile.

[soubitos]

Quote from: tautech on Today at 11:27:20 PM

>Quote from: paulca on Today at 11:08:32 PM

>Quote from: soubitos on Today at 09:33:48 PM

I am in a position to know what an OEM really is...

But can you use the forum's OEM PHPBB tags and quote properly?

That's not the problem for soubitos.
He needs to turn OFF the WYSIWYG editor in his profile.

I dont know if you told me that again, but someone did... i tried to find where in my profile i do that and didnt find it, i didnt expect someone would try to use that against me! BTW, it was not funny or smart or mean or whatever....  some people might have knowledge on many things but fail in manners, real education and simply being decent humans... anyway...

[wraper]

As i do know these days, most of the "brand" names in reality are the product of the OEM but the consumer knows only the brand name so, when you see the OEM product you call it fake or counterfeit etc... that is what i wanted to add to the discussion you know it happens, you know it is a "route" of "fakes" to appear in the market so i now go back to do something more productive....

Such product will then bear a different brand name. You can call them knockoffs if don't know they are the same product. But there is no reason to call them counterfeits which we discuss here.

[tautech]

@ soubitos
The setting for WYSIWYG is in Modify Profile>Look and Layout.
Make sure the box is not ticked and your quoted replies will look the same as everyone else here.

[soubitos]

How can you call a product made from same OEM same parts, same procedures, same specs fake or knockoff?
Just because 10 different companies buy the same stuff and put their name on it, doesn't make it either fake or knockoff.... and when you find the "real" OEM for half the "brand"price, it is neither fake or knockoff.... its just that.. OEM, no logo, no support, no nothing but the product at half the price....

[paulca]

Quote from: soubitos on Today at 21:32:40

I dont know if you told me that again, but someone did... i tried to find where in my profile i do that and didnt find it, i didnt expect someone would try to use that against me! BTW, it was not funny or smart or mean or whatever....  some people might have knowledge on many things but fail in manners, real education and simply being decent humans... anyway...

Oh god that's horrible.  The little button with the mouse cursor and [ ] around it.  Just tried it, it did this to my post.


Also, I wasn't attacking you I was just bantering, a friendly little jibe, relax, put your panties back on the right way they are twisted.

[soubitos]

Quote from: soubitos on Today at 21:32:40

I dont know if you told me that again, but someone did... i tried to find where in my profile i do that and didnt find it, i didnt expect someone would try to use that against me! BTW, it was not funny or smart or mean or whatever....  some people might have knowledge on many things but fail in manners, real education and simply being decent humans... anyway...

Oh god that's horrible.  The little button with the mouse cursor and [ ] around it.  Just tried it, it did this to my post.

Also, I wasn't attacking you I was just bantering, a friendly little jibe, relax, put your panties back on the right way they are twisted.

Sometimes, it good to keep in mind where other people come from and what their native language is if not the same as yours, also their culture and why not, the very fact they are not YOU.... ? ?? ? ?

[paulca]

Sometimes, it good to keep in mind where other people come from and what their native language is if not the same as yours, also their culture and why not, the very fact they are not YOU.... ? ?? ? ?

That works both ways.  Do you want me to stop being me so I can interact with you? 

[Specmaster]

I am in a position to know what an OEM really is...

Without wishing to offend anyone here, somehow I doubt that.

doesn't need to come out of the back door really... there are many cases the "factory" is simply a chinese subcontractor.. there are lots of cases they are the original manufacturer and they sell the same product to the western "brand" while they also sell it as chinese or any other brand product....

The reason I doubt it because you clearly have not read and understood precisely what soubitos was saying in the above quote. Nowhere in his quote does he mention selling to another company at all.

He does however mention that the manufacturer may be making the item on behalf of another company and that product carries the employing companies branding/logo, but the manufacturer also puts a different logo/brand (one that they own) and sells the product themselves into maybe a different market sector at a different pricing strategy and marketing campaign that does not impinge on the his main customers target customer base.

Also of course, there is no need for a OEM customer to change the branding of the product, it merely needs to be a fundamental part of his own product, i.e., take it away and his product would not function. So a company buying in electronic components, and putting those into their own circuit design and enclosure and selling it as their product with their brand name and logo plastered over it, has to do that all the other constituent parts of the circuit? Open up any piece of equipment you have on your bench and you will see other peoples products being used within it, still with their name all over them. To the manufacturers of those components, that manufacturer is an OEM to them because of the quantities they are using and the fact that their parts are contained within his product. I know this because in my time I have had many OEM accounts under my control.

[cdev]

Soubitos,

If you "turn off the WYSIWYG editor, as I did, you still get the WYSIWYG editor sometimes, but more importantly, nested quoting works so people can follow you in conversation when you "quote" somebody's post.

Quote from: tautech on Today at 11:27:20 PM

>Quote from: paulca on Today at 11:08:32 PM

>Quote from: soubitos on Today at 09:33:48 PM

I am in a position to know what an OEM really is...

But can you use the forum's OEM PHPBB tags and quote properly?

That's not the problem for soubitos.
He needs to turn OFF the WYSIWYG editor in his profile.

I dont know if you told me that again, but someone did... i tried to find where in my profile i do that and didnt find it, i didnt expect someone would try to use that against me! BTW, it was not funny or smart or mean or whatever....  some people might have knowledge on many things but fail in manners, real education and simply being decent humans... anyway...

[cdev]

The biggest growth in outsourcing is expected to be in "services", not manufacturing, actually.

Services are 'everything you cannot drop on your foot', roughly 75% of a modern country's economy.

Of that, a very large percentage, more than half can be outsourced and likely will be soon. They are just working the final bugs out now.  That's why they are privatizing services of all kinds everywhere. So they can outsource them, their jobs then become a sort of poker chip they can trade for concessions in other areas.

Its based on Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage. Some countries have huge numbers of workers, willing to work for almost anything, virtually everybody whose family has some money, which is a lot of people, has a bachelors degree and millions of wealthy people have advanced degrees.  But they are creating very few jobs for the people who need them to move upward. Instead they are going to even poorer countries trying to find even cheaper workers. Because there is so much corruption. They want to keep their people poor and desperate so they won't aspire to better things, and push them out.

Still, a lot of work is going to shift overseas from developed countries to places like India. Where entire cities operate entirely at night, so they can staff businesses on the other side of the world.

This appeals to the grandiose ambitions of many executives. They see themselves as the indispensable part of the chain.

But the fact is, they are not. Both them and the workers they are so eager to lay off are dispensable. So are the factory workers and call center staff. Artificial intelligence can do their jobs. So they are all being unrealistic about these shifts.

They are all being over optimistic.

How many jobs will actually remain in the developing countries after these changes, there will be very few. So, who is left?  Nobody! And also no customers.

The global economy will implode.

In the confusion, who knows what will happen. Probably another huge theft of everything on the planet, by a very few. 2008 was almost ten years ago, maybe that was just a practice run?

A big shell game?  Where did the money go?

[Specmaster]

I think you are not far off the mark here. I believe that these wealthy people, who own the companies, and governments alike, are loosing sight of the fact that the more money that they can put in the hands of workers, the better off they will be in due course as the workers start to spend said money, thus creating greater demand for the things that the companies are producing, creating more jobs as business picks up.

In the case of governments, I'm sure that all the various benefits they have to pay out to people, outweigh the costs involved in helping create jobs that people could do and then the flow of money would be reversed, more people earning equals more people paying income tax, VAT and NHS and like wise the more companies doing well, the more income from corporate tax, VAT, business tax and so on.

That would mean that they could then be in a better position to provide proper services for the elderly etc and provide better roads and other infrastructures etc.

I may have painted a too simplistic picture but I'm sure that overall it makes more sense than the current position most countries find themselves in.

This is not intended to start a political discussion, just my view on things and anything else is a rabbit hole we don't need to go down.

[cdev]

Actually, you are right, Specmaster, the whole obsession with "efficiency" and "optimizing he global value chains" is the exact opposite of paying workers well, its a process of trying to eliminate as many jobs as possible and paying the absolute minimum possible for the remaining workers as possible, going to the ends of the earth to find the cheapest ones, and giving them the absolute least security possible. Now that corporations are above countries, they dictate the rules, they have countries bamboozled into thinking technology is much more difficult and mysterious than in fact it is. So people have now lost the right to vote - except for things that don't matter economically. And all the things that do matter are being irreversibly privatized so governments wont be allowed to be involved, everything will have to be based on money many people wont have. I read a bunch of stuff yesterday about how in India they are using a biometric system to identify people (because they had the foresight to never teach a great may of them to read, I suppose, simplifying the devolution process. Millions of Indians have ever set foot inside of a school, having been sent to work as soon as they could.) Nothing is more "efficient" than child labor. Chinese for all their problems at least tried and I think still are trying to effectuate universal education for all, at least through primary and middle school.

A few months ago I saw a data visualization which showed the progress of alleviating poverty and China's poor were improving rapidly but India was just still, barely moving over the last decade or so.

They leave the US out of those graphs because here we are actually going backwards.

The most unequal rich countries are the US, India and Brazil. They are also the most unequal poor countries.

I think we in our little global community are doing a very good thing by becoming friends with one another and trying to see the world through each others eyes. I think we're helping us all make progress which is real.

Interactions of any kind improve the general professionalism and mutual respect we have for one another.

My own personal experience with buying things from China has with only one exception - which was resolved quickly- been very good.

Thanks to all of you for all of your insights into the electronics industry and market there.

[Warhawk]

Wrapper, I just want to say that I am with you.

That "same company back door BS" is just a disease from too much shopping on Aliexpress. However, everybody loves bargains and this BS is just comforting to believe. It may occasionally happen but in significantly lower quantities.

Here are just some thoughts to consider.

• If somebody thinks that reputable companies do not track scrap, he's naive. More scrap means lower margins and they track everything down to the IC level. That's why we have a bar-code or a QR code on every single component possible. My previous company stores manufacturing data for 10 years. When you scan a device barcode, you can see everything, e.g. components origin including passives, delivery time, lot, ambient temperature but also operator's name and how many times he went to the toilet... This is really important to track down costs and quality.
• If original item sells on ebay for X, why would you sell it for 1/10 of X?

I've been to china only once but would be really surprised if people there wouldn't be afraid of loosing their job. When you're an operator manager for Foxconn, I doubt that you "close your eyes" during the night shift. But this is something Blueskull could comment on.

What really drives me mad is this hunt for bargains which effectively makes quality stuff hard to get. Reputable companies either sacrificed  quality, bankrupted or set prices to the premium level. It does not matter if you want kitchen knifes, cordless drill or R/C accessories. When was the last time you shopped based on the country of origin rather then on cost? 

Whilst the user soubitos considers the fact (still unconfirmed) that all packages form China will go through the customs as of 2020 as a bad thing, I may like it. I like my job in the EU.
It is more than enough that companies like Robbe-Futaba, Hobbico, Graupner, Schulze and some others, I can't recall now, bankrupted. It should be clear for those who play with R/C models what happened.

[soubitos]

Man! I still remember the times when Phillips made TV's and many other products in Greece... When we had 2-3 Greek companies making electric appliances and a Japanese TV costed 3-4x what a Greek made would.
The 2020 goal is set by EU... they want to create EU based platforms the like of Aliexpress for example where the same Chinese products you buy today will be sold but at a much higher cost since you will pay taxes etc.... Do you think a EU made resistor will cost less than a Chinese made resistor this way? maybe... but in a global scale, an EU company who wants to sell globally will still make their product in countries like China so i dont see how EU jobs will be created (to replace those in China that is).... of course, there is a way to bypass this two actually... one is that Chinese will find loopholes left for them to pass through customs via special hubs at a fragment of the cost it costs them today and it will be more or less, business as usual ... and the other which you should be sensing is that whole areas of the Soviet Union of Europe will be forced to work for peanuts so the cost is kept as low as possible and the corporations can compete in a global level....

As for chinese components themselves, i am sure there are CHINESE made from Chinese companies which are good, maybe more than just good.... they come at a cost unlike the "cheap" chinese stuff so most who are looking at the price alone, will not notice them.... they might be slightly cheaper than western made counterparts but not the cheap stuff which you have in mind (which means, you get what you pay for everytime)..... The problem as i was told is that for example, Top-Power makes TP4056 chips... they also sell chips to others... most of the TP4056 out there are probably from the same factory... but the ones sold under the Top-Power brand are more expensive, even twice the price of those sold online which are probably the same thing but can also be B grade etc.....

[Specmaster]

Wrapper, I just want to say that I am with you.

That "same company back door BS" is just a disease from too much shopping on Aliexpress. However, everybody loves bargains and this BS is just comforting to believe. It may occasionally happen but in significantly lower quantities.

Here are just some thoughts to consider.

• If somebody thinks that reputable companies do not track scrap, he's naive. More scrap means lower margins and they track everything down to the IC level. That's why we have a bar-code or a QR code on every single component possible. My previous company stores manufacturing data for 10 years. When you scan a device barcode, you can see everything, e.g. components origin including passives, delivery time, lot, ambient temperature but also operator's name and how many times he went to the toilet... This is really important to track down costs and quality.
• If original item sells on ebay for X, why would you sell it for 1/10 of X?

I've been to china only once but would be really surprised if people there wouldn't be afraid of loosing their job. When you're an operator manager for Foxconn, I doubt that you "close your eyes" during the night shift. But this is something Blueskull could comment on.

What really drives me mad is this hunt for bargains which effectively makes quality stuff hard to get. Reputable companies either sacrificed  quality, bankrupted or set prices to the premium level. It does not matter if you want kitchen knifes, cordless drill or R/C accessories. When was the last time you shopped based on the country of origin rather then on cost? 

Whilst the user soubitos considers the fact (still unconfirmed) that all packages form China will go through the customs as of 2020 as a bad thing, I may like it. I like my job in the EU.
It is more than enough that companies like Robbe-Futaba, Hobbico, Graupner, Schulze and some others, I can't recall now, bankrupted. It should be clear for those who play with R/C models what happened.

I could not disagree with you more if I tried, what we are saying does in fact go on and anyone disagreeing is merely being like an ostrich and burying their head in sand. Yes the percentage that some people claimed was in my opinion massively over exaggerated when it came to the back door into the factory, but when it comes to the "fake" export items that do not carry all the normal taxation that items for home consumption cannot evade (except via the back door, i.e., stolen) that is 100% fact because I was personally involved to attempting to prove that this was happening and then also in the operation to close that loophole down. As stated it was not just happening to the company I was working for but many of our competitors as well and their was a large effort trying to curb this trade. I did in fact visit a warehouse that was full of the faked export gear from many companies because the telltale marks were showing up under ultraviolet light and I saw these with my own eyes.

What I don't know for certain is if this is still occurring today or not as I have been out of that market sector for a number of years now.

[madires]

My advice is to shop for genuine Chinese components and to stay away from cheap mains powered stuff. Also be aware that Chinese Watts/Amps/whatever are usually 30-50% of the SI and SI derived units.

[Warhawk]

I have no reason why to doubt your practical experience.
Nevertheless, I am surprised that a modern company does not track merchandise accurately enough to find out that a part of stock is missing. Based on your feedback I guess that the problem will be more complex than black and white as I indicated before.

May I ask you when was it?
I also believe that it matters if you subcontract a company in china to make your product (in this case you're turning it nearly "open source") or you owe a manufacturing plant and have full control over the process.

What I am still trying to say is that I believe that most of the western stuff from China, which people believe are from the back door, are counterfeits.

[wraper]

Some good read about how ABB tried to fight counterfeiters in china to be screwed over by counterfeit investigators. http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20151210/business/312109731
EDIT:

The company calculated that sales of counterfeit ABB low-voltage circuit breakers - the very product Lee was peddling - topped 2 billion yuan ($314 million), according to ABB's court filings.

Try finding genuine products made by night shift among such amount of counterfeits.

[Specmaster]

I have no reason why to doubt your practical experience.
Nevertheless, I am surprised that a modern company does not track merchandise accurately enough to find out that a part of stock is missing. Based on your feedback I guess that the problem will be more complex than black and white as I indicated before.

May I ask you when was it?
I also believe that it matters if you subcontract a company in china to make your product (in this case you're turning it nearly "open source") or you owe a manufacturing plant and have full control over the process.

What I am still trying to say is that I believe that most of the western stuff from China, which people believe are from the back door, are counterfeits.

Those items are counterfeit, no doubt about it, but I believe you will find that those that were arguing that they weren't are not so much talking of the finished items or modules even as mu as the components, resistors, capacitors and semi conductors, which in that format are the valuable  stock that it has been conceived to be because in that line of work there will be reasonable volumes of rejects etc produced that are literally dumped so what does it matter if on the odd occasion a few hundred more rejects are produced and dumped?

As to my experience, yes it was a few years ago, about 20 years, but the items in question were all accounted and paid for but at export prices which, even without the tax burden, are always at far better prices than the home market prices, and hence the added incentive for a few people to set up fake export houses and feed the items back into the UK market because there is always a buyer waiting to shave few more percentage points off and thus more profits.

[wraper]

Those items are counterfeit, no doubt about it, but I believe you will find that those that were arguing that they weren't are not so much talking of the finished items or modules even as mu as the components, resistors, capacitors and semi conductors, which in that format are the valuable  stock that it has been conceived to be because in that line of work there will be reasonable volumes of rejects etc produced that are literally dumped so what does it matter if on the odd occasion a few hundred more rejects are produced and dumped?

Try finding 100 rejects among a million of counterfeits and parts recycled from e-waste. It's as winning a big prize in lottery.

[Specmaster]

Those items are counterfeit, no doubt about it, but I believe you will find that those that were arguing that they weren't are not so much talking of the finished items or modules even as mu as the components, resistors, capacitors and semi conductors, which in that format are the valuable  stock that it has been conceived to be because in that line of work there will be reasonable volumes of rejects etc produced that are literally dumped so what does it matter if on the odd occasion a few hundred more rejects are produced and dumped?

Try finding 100 rejects among a million of counterfeits and parts recycled from e-waste. It's as winning a big prize in lottery.

I'm not sure if we are understanding each other here or not?

[wraper]

I'm not sure if we are understanding each other here or not?

Dunno, maybe for you it's hard to understand that amount or rejects or parts stolen from a factory by other means is a drop in a sea of counterfeits.

[Specmaster]

I'm not sure if we are understanding each other here or not?

Dunno, maybe for you it's hard to understand that amount or rejects or parts stolen from a factory by other means is a drop in a sea of counterfeits.

Oh I would think you're correct in that because of the added value of a finished product is far higher then the sum of its parts therefore counterfeiters are far more likely to make copies of lets say, a SMPS than they are to counterfeit the various parts of a SMPS.

[bd139]

To be fair they make perfectly good SMPS components so there’s no need to counterfeit them.

Some of the Chinese native ICs are pretty good. LT territory but without the £5 a pop price tag.

[Warhawk]

To be fair they make perfectly good SMPS components so there’s no need to counterfeit them.

Some of the Chinese native ICs are pretty good. LT territory but without the £5 a pop price tag.

Any tips?

[wraper]

To be fair they make perfectly good SMPS components so there’s no need to counterfeit them.

Some of the Chinese native ICs are pretty good. LT territory but without the £5 a pop price tag.

There are decent Chinese ICs but if you think native Chinese ICs are not counterfeited then you are too naive.

[Specmaster]

To be fair they make perfectly good SMPS components so there’s no need to counterfeit them.

Some of the Chinese native ICs are pretty good. LT territory but without the £5 a pop price tag.

There are decent Chinese ICs but if you think native Chinese ICs are not counterfeited then you are too naive.

Surely counterfeiters are going to target more expensive items that can be made in small batches rather then going for the mass market products?

[wraper]

Surely counterfeiters are going to target more expensive items that can be made in small batches rather then going for the mass market products?

Surely the cheapest parts ARE counterfeited. Like capacitors or ICs worth not more than a few cents.

[Specmaster]

Surely counterfeiters are going to target more expensive items that can be made in small batches rather then going for the mass market products?

Surely the cheapest parts ARE counterfeited. Like capacitors or ICs worth not more than a few cents.

Wouldn't have thought it was worthwhile, they have to shift vast quantities and also have access to the machinery to mass produce these items which just increases their chances of getting caught whereas copying another completed populated circuit board could be done as a cottage industry and therefore must reduced chances of being discovered.

[wraper]

Look no further than IC worth a few cents @ high quantities:
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-555-NE555-real-vs-face-china-chinese

Looking at these designs one can see that routing in Chinese designs is very "intense": they are squeezing every fraction of a cent in die manufacturing cost.

Update: microcolonel was first to realize that this G1083 die is exactly the same, as the one we've decapped as HA17555. That means our HA17555 was also fake. These fakes are getting convoluted.

[bd139]

Smoke comes out of all of them equally when I'm let at them.

[Tomorokoshi]

Wouldn't have thought it was worthwhile, they have to shift vast quantities and also have access to the machinery to mass produce these items which just increases their chances of getting caught whereas copying another completed populated circuit board could be done as a cottage industry and therefore must reduced chances of being discovered.

This is from 2009. Not sure how things have changed since then:
http://www.asq.org/asd/2009/03/compliance/counterfeit-parts.pdf

[Specmaster]

Wouldn't have thought it was worthwhile, they have to shift vast quantities and also have access to the machinery to mass produce these items which just increases their chances of getting caught whereas copying another completed populated circuit board could be done as a cottage industry and therefore must reduced chances of being discovered.

This is from 2009. Not sure how things have changed since then:
http://www.asq.org/asd/2009/03/compliance/counterfeit-parts.pdf

Having seen this I stand corrected, but is this counterfeiting or just recycling after being extracted, cleaned up and tested to make sure they aren't dead and faking their age?

[wraper]

Having seen this I stand corrected, but is this counterfeiting or just recycling after being extracted, cleaned up and tested to make sure they aren't dead and faking their age?

Unlikely that they will be tested. Also expect they will be sanded, blacktopped and remarked with different datecode and probably grade/model if there is some similar part they need to "produce".

This particularly makes buying half decent GPU chips for repairs a tough task as there are no legit channels. Most of what is sold are remarked old chips with issues, often with originally different suffix which makes it even worse as often those are not directly compatible. Tried sourcing them myself multiple times until decided to not bother with such repairs, waste of money and loss of respectability.

[Specmaster]

Just stumbled across this interesting video.

[bd139]

Got a whole strip of AD8307’s arrive yesterday from China. Soldered one on to one of my boards in dev in lieu of a £10 one from RS. Over entire sweep from 10-400MHz it reports same power as the £10 job. So:

RS - £10 each
China - £0.279 each

Hmm.