choosing used analog oscilloscope

[Cookie3]

Hi! I'm beginner at electronics, but i think i've reached a point where i cant get around with out a scope. Could you guys please help me chose an old analog scope, i know it's easier to get a modern digital one like Rigol DS1054Z or something similar, than an old scope, but i believe it would benefit me a lot to learn who to use analog scope first, as many people on this forum suggested. I'm doing just basic stuff simple low level circuits and actually enjoy them more rather then raspberry pi and arduinos (thou i do like them too ). There are these available in my area for sale. Which one would the best, second best and third best scope out of them and why, and what would i need to calibrate it:



1) HP 1741a with probe

Price: $200 CAD

Description:
Working fine, all controls function properly, trace clear and strong. Included is 10X probe, marked M20 which I believe is 100 MHz probe; same as oscilloscope. This particular model can work as regular analog oscilloscope, but also has a storage of the waveform is possible when in storage mode. Any questions please contact.

link: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-electronics/calgary/oscilloscope-hp-1741a-with-probe/1384168430?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true





2) Kenwood CS-5270

Price: $250 CAD

Description:
The CS-5270 model oscilloscope is set up for 3-channel, 8-trace sampling at 100 MHz. The unit is in great working condition, and comes with two P6000 1X and 10X Oscilloscope Probes (new in package, but not original). Display is crisp and clear.
This is a good quality unit, from a reliable brand. The 3 channel, 100MHz sampling is a definite bonus over some of the lower quality versions available on the used the market.

link: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-electronics/calgary/kenwood-cs-5270-oscilloscope/1377786277?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true





3) Hitachi V-212 20MHz

Price: $150 CAD

Description:
Hello: I am selling my oscilloscope great for low freq applications, 2 channel, c/w 2 probes, 20MHz

link: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-electronics/calgary/hitachi-oscilloscope/1376659489?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true





4) Kenwood CS-5130  40MHz

Price: $150 CAD

Description:
Great beginner oscilloscope at an amazing price! Typically these are priced at well over $300 new and $250 on E-bay. The CS-5130 is designed to provide the maximum performance with a maximum bandwidth of 40 Mhz. It features a digital readout function and cursor measurements to enhance measurement accuracy. The CS-5130 is portable and easy to setup and use. Probes not included.

link: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-electronics/calgary/oscilloscope:-kenwood-cs-5130/1373208664?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true





5) Hitachi V-665A

Price: 123$

Description: 60MHz

link: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-electronics/calgary/hitachi-oscilloscope/1372225221?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true




Price is not really a concern, thou i don't really wanna pay extra just because it a "vintage" or collectable (There is HealthKit 35Mhz for sale there for $600 CAD with description "rare collectors item"    https://www.kijiji.ca/v-electronics/calgary/heathkit-35-mhz-oscilloscope-rare/1167682856?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true ). My biggest worry is that it be reliable and idiot prove. I'm leaning towards HP1741a and Kenwood CS 5270 just based on the "users interface" 


Best Regards

[vk6zgo]

I would choose the HP.
It is a more sophisticated instrument, which has dual/delayed time base.

This is a very useful function, which I was going to try to describe, but this video does it better:



Sorry it is aTek 'scope in the video, but the HP is very similar.

The analog storage  function?

You may find it useful, or may not.
Many storage CROs do not have enough brightness left to give a useful display in this mode, in others, the circuitry to adjust such things is faulty.

My Tektronix 7613 is an exception, & storage works well.
Analog storage, is, however quite limited compared to that of a DSO

[Old Printer]

Since these things are not cheap to ship, one close enough to pickup is a big plus along with the fact you get to twiddle the knobs before you buy. These scopes are a good 30 years old and are going to need some work from time to time to keep them going. Power supply capacitors are famous for going bad with age. Along this line I think one of the most important factors is the availability of a factory service manual, a good one like Tektronix does. I know the knock on TEK scopes is they are over priced because of their name, and that is true, but the flip side is they have great user and service manuals/schematics and they are mostly available on CD's very reasonably. I would not buy one of these old queens if I could not find the service manual before I bought the scope. Best of luck in your search.

[james_s]

Those Hitachi V-series scopes are nice instruments, I have a 100MHz model here I rescued recently and after cleaning all the switches with contact lube it works great. A lot of those prices sound rather high to me though, are those locally available?

[Alex Eisenhut]

I wouldn't recommend that particular HP for a beginner. It is an analog storage scope and those special CRTs go bad much quicker than non-storage tubes. One failure mode is a permanently burned-in trace picture. If you don't know how to use this kind of scope, that could easily happen. In the picture the CONV light is on, it is in "conventional" mode, ie non-storage.

Storage in this scope does not mean digital storage, you're not downloading these waveforms to a PC unless you take a picture of the CRT! (Eh, I did most of my college assignments like that with my Amiga back in the day)

Not only do you lose a lot of brightness with usage with these tubes, also the trace is not as sharp, and using the analog storage mode can be tricky, you need to twiddle the write current before being able to capture an event. Also you need to "deep erase" the tube once in a while to prevent burn-in. The scope can do it, but not by itself, you have to remember!

If you decide to buy it, make sure the manual is included in the storage pouch, it contains the schematics.

Also make sure the 50 ohm inputs work, they can blow easily. You need to manually switch out the 50R input when not needed.

[drussell]

These scopes are a good 30 years old and are going to need some work from time to time to keep them going. Power supply capacitors are famous for going bad with age.

Cookie3, while I don't have any scopes available to sell you, since it looks like you're here in Calgary, if you end up having any issues with whatever you do buy, I can probably help you get it sorted out.

I know how helpful it was when I was starting out to have a few people that I could ask questions of, help troubleshoot things I didn't understand yet, etc., so consider it a standing offer if you need any assistance with anything electronic.

[drussell]

Those Hitachi V-series scopes are nice instruments, I have a 100MHz model here I rescued recently and after cleaning all the switches with contact lube it works great. A lot of those prices sound rather high to me though, are those locally available?

I agree that the prices are a bit on the high side (though, remember that this is $CAD,) especially that first Hitachi which should be about 1/3 that price but the OP can probably get any of these for at least a bit less than the listed price, you just need to make a counter-offer, especially if the thing sits there forever unsold.   

The guy with that second Hitachi even says "60 MHz, make an offer" and there's probably a good chance he'd let it go for $60-75 to a beginner if you call him up and he's a "nice" chap. 

It seems that the OP is here in Calgary, so pickup instead of shipping is a great bonus.

[vk6zgo]

I wouldn't recommend that particular HP for a beginner. It is an analog storage scope and those special CRTs go bad much quicker than non-storage tubes. One failure mode is a permanently burned-in trace picture. If you don't know how to use this kind of scope, that could easily happen. In the picture the CONV light is on, it is in "conventional" mode, ie non-storage.

Storage in this scope does not mean digital storage, you're not downloading these waveforms to a PC unless you take a picture of the CRT! (Eh, I did most of my college assignments like that with my Amiga back in the day)

Not only do you lose a lot of brightness with usage with these tubes, also the trace is not as sharp, and using the analog storage mode can be tricky, you need to twiddle the write current before being able to capture an event. Also you need to "deep erase" the tube once in a while to prevent burn-in. The scope can do it, but not by itself, you have to remember!

If you decide to buy it, make sure the manual is included in the storage pouch, it contains the schematics.

Also make sure the 50 ohm inputs work, they can blow easily. You need to manually switch out the 50R input when not needed.

Many analog storage CROs have had very few hours in that mode, as it is not necessary  for much general work.
It comes in the "nice to have but hardly necessary" category.

A lot of "waveform display storage" was done using Polaroid 'scope cameras, which gave a permanent hard copy of the usual waveforms being tested.

Many came equipped to use "projected graticules".
These were used by fitting the waveform under examination into the graticule lines, using index points specified in the test procedure.
If the test waveform fitted within the graticule limits, it was "in spec ".
A photo was then taken so other people could check if you had stuffed it up.

The 1741a seems to have a bit more "high tech" storage than others of this ilk, with various interesting functions, such as "auto erase".
It also has automatic beam current limiting in the storage mode, so it may be protected to some extent from "burn in".

I only remember using a HP 1741 on one occasion, I mostly used Tektronix instruments, & some HP180s from time to time.

I wouldn't be heartbroken  if the 50ohm inputs didn't work, as that just makes things the same as most other100MHz 'scopes.

As more of a Tek enthusiast, I would suggest the OP shop around a bit for a non-storage Tektronix.
If there are any Hamfests where he is, there may be several 'scopes for sale on the day, or maybe not
You take your chance.

Don't reject other brands which have delayed time base though, a couple of Hamfests back, I "passed" on a very nice Cossor 35MHz Oscilloscope, with that mode, in good condition, for $A40.
I really didn't need another 'scope, but when does "need" come into it?

[Cookie3]

You guys are so nice! Thank you!

Those Hitachi V-series scopes are nice instruments, I have a 100MHz model here I rescued recently and after cleaning all the switches with contact lube it works great. A lot of those prices sound rather high to me though, are those locally available?

Yes they are! I couldn't find their exact dimensions, but my experience working in shipping tells me, it's be really expensive to ship a old tube scope with proper packaging and fragile  (which its has to have to make it to it's destination in one piece), hence I didn't look at ebay other places.

These scopes are a good 30 years old and are going to need some work from time to time to keep them going. Power supply capacitors are famous for going bad with age.

Cookie3, while I don't have any scopes available to sell you, since it looks like you're here in Calgary, if you end up having any issues with whatever you do buy, I can probably help you get it sorted out.

I know how helpful it was when I was starting out to have a few people that I could ask questions of, help troubleshoot things I didn't understand yet, etc., so consider it a standing offer if you need any assistance with anything electronic.

drussell, thank you so much for your offer (takes off the feathered hat and bows down like puss in the boots)

[alsetalokin4017]

If you are anywhere near Toronto you might try Active Surplus. I've bought three analog scopes there (two Philips and one Tektronix) over the years, for about 100 CDN each. Probes can be had cheaply on Ebay, the Chinese 1x/10x 100MHz probes for about 25 dollars a pair are entirely adequate for the kind of work specified.

ETA: oh.. Calgary... you might still find it useful to call Active in TO and see what can be arranged...

[drussell]

I just happened to check eBay for local scopes here in Calgary and noticed that the guy with the HP 1741a on Kijiji also has it listed on eBay with a $200 USD BIN and a Make Offer button, who knows how quick he wants to get rid of it or what kind of offer he'd end up accepting, he's only had it up on both for 8 days:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-Hewlett-Packard-1741A-100MHz-2-Channel-Storage-Oscilloscope-with-probe/292729323669

I also stumbled on this one which is here in Calgary also, which is a nice scope (bandersentv on YouTube uses the 2-channel version) but I highly doubt it will go for the $129 starting bid.  It will probably go for more like $300 (at which point you might as well buy a Rigol 1054Z) but it might be worth watching the auction anyway, just out of curiosity, although it doesn't really fit your "learn an analog scope first" idea since it is actually an early digital scope, but if it were picked up dirt cheap, it would be hard to argue with a good deal:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/HP-54601A-Digital-Oscilloscope/273476622045

Some of those other listed Kijiji ads have been on there for months.  That last 60 MHz Hitachi was listed in July, he might be motivated to sell if he's trying to get rid of it and it is actually still there.