Circuit Board Help

[Midas]

Hello I am trying to get a circuit board together I am a total rookie pertaining to this. I have read books so far, but I am still a bit confused regarding this. The issue that I am having is determining whether I am even right regarding my logic overall. I am trying get a motion sensor working. I don't even know whether I need an integrated circuit, but it seems like I do. I am just going by intuition. I also have a feeling that I don't need the integrated circuit, but I wonder is it better without. The red and black cords shown is the external battery. I do need a resistor which is shown in the pics. I feel I need a capacitor, but I am not sure as well. I also feel like I need another resistor somewhere.

[miguelvp]

First of all you have VCC, Ground and Out shorted on that board. It's a good thing you don't have the ground connected to the board, or that board will be toast.

Second, you have to read more, you can't go on feelings.

I have no idea what you are trying to do with the motion sensor, I mean once you have the board powered right then what is the final goal? You will have to do something with that output signal.

[Midas]

I am sorry I am such an idiot I thought I wrote it in the first post I am trying to connect the sensor to a digital camera, so the camera will take a picture when it detects motion. I thought I put it there and then when I clicked post it said my session timed out -_-, so I had to write it over again.

[Midas]

First of all you have VCC, Ground and Out shorted on that board. It's a good thing you don't have the ground connected to the board, or that board will be toast.

Second, you have to read more, you can't go on feelings.

I have no idea what you are trying to do with the motion sensor, I mean once you have the board powered right then what is the final goal? You will have to do something with that output signal.

Yes I don't have anything connected I know my strengths and weaknesses enough not to have anything plugged up  . I know I shouldn't go off on feeling at all, I have googled and I am not sure how to determine whether I even need an IC or not. If I do need it, can you explain why I am would need it. I am a beginner so I apologize for my ignorance in advance. Can you explain this --> First of all you have VCC, Ground and Out shorted on that board.

[miguelvp]

Row 10 on the breadboard connects F-G-H-I-J together.

Here is how the breadboard is wired internally.



Edit: As for what is your purpose with the motion sensor, seems like that board will output something on out, what do you want to trigger with the sensor?

For example the user manual shows how to hook it up to an arduino, I think this is the one you are using?
http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aasr_prd/on/demandware.static/Sites-radioshack-Site/Sites-radioshack-Library/default/v1418050826492/Support/ProductManuals/2760347_PM_EN.pdf

So I guess the question is what do you want to do with the signal that detects movement?

[PA0PBZ]

The 3 pins on the pcb you plugged into that breadboard are all connected to each other, the breadboard has little metal strips going from A-E and F-J for each row ( 1, 2, 3 etc.) So the way you plugged in the pcb connects the three pins together, better rotate it 90^o.
Then you have to find out what the signal on the "out" pin on the pcb is, how does it give a signal? Does it switch the "out" pin to ground when it detects movement, does it give a positive voltage, something else?
Next is to find out how you can control the camera, what kind of input does it have, what kind of signal does it need to take a picture?

Lots of work to do as you can see 

[Midas]

Row 10 on the breadboard connects F-G-H-I-J together.

Here is how the breadboard is wired internally.



Edit: As for what is your purpose with the motion sensor, seems like that board will output something on out, what do you want to trigger with the sensor?

For example the user manual shows how to hook it up to an arduino, I think this is the one you are using?
http://demandware.edgesuite.net/aasr_prd/on/demandware.static/Sites-radioshack-Site/Sites-radioshack-Library/default/v1418050826492/Support/ProductManuals/2760347_PM_EN.pdf

So I guess the question is what do you want to do with the signal that detects movement?

The signal that detects movement I want to take a pciture and yes you are correct I am using that sensor. I have seen people use it without an arduino and I was wondering would I be able to use the sensor for that.

[Midas]

The 3 pins on the pcb you plugged into that breadboard are all connected to each other, the breadboard has little metal strips going from A-E and F-J for each row ( 1, 2, 3 etc.) So the way you plugged in the pcb connects the three pins together, better rotate it 90^o.
Then you have to find out what the signal on the "out" pin on the pcb is, how does it give a signal? Does it switch the "out" pin to ground when it detects movement, does it give a positive voltage, something else?
Next is to find out how you can control the camera, what kind of input does it have, what kind of signal does it need to take a picture?

Lots of work to do as you can see 

Yes I do have work cut out for me and I am willing to do it, but jeez  I knew it was not going to be a walk in the park. Everything you typed was a bit overwhelming, but I am willing to understand it.

[miguelvp]

Here is a project that uses an arduino and your sensor to make an alarm. It should be a good start.

http://makezine.com/projects/pir-sensor-arduino-alarm/

Edit: maybe not exactly your sensor but similar enough, it seems yours has two output modes according to that small manual I linked before.

    Re-trig sends a continuous signal when
movement is detected.
    N-Retrig pulses a signal of approximately 4
seconds when movement is detected.

Edit: a more detailed tutorial:
https://learn.adafruit.com/pir-passive-infrared-proximity-motion-sensor/

[Midas]

Here is a project that uses an arduino and your sensor to make an alarm. It should be a good start.

http://makezine.com/projects/pir-sensor-arduino-alarm/

Edit: maybe not exactly your sensor but similar enough, it seems yours has two output modes according to that small manual I linked before.

    Re-trig sends a continuous signal when
movement is detected.
    N-Retrig pulses a signal of approximately 4
seconds when movement is detected.

Yes I have seen that and other examples using that, but I was hoping to use it without the arduino.

[hans maree]

For getting a usable signal out of the sensor you definitely don't need an arduino. The sensor will output a high signal (voltage from the battery) if motion is detected and a low signal (zero volts) if no motion is detected.
You should be able to test this by connecting the OUT pin to an LED in series with a resistor (anything from 100 ohm to 1k should do).

Whether or not you need an arduino to make the camera take a picture is another story. We would need some info on what camera you are using to help you with that.

Note that I have not used a motion detector like this, so if I'm wrong someone please correct me.

[Midas]

For getting a usable signal out of the sensor you definitely don't need an arduino. The sensor will output a high signal (voltage from the battery) if motion is detected and a low signal (zero volts) if no motion is detected.
You should be able to test this by connecting the OUT pin to an LED in series with a resistor (anything from 100 ohm to 1k should do).

Whether or not you need an arduino to make the camera take a picture is another story. We would need some info on what camera you are using to help you with that.

Note that I have not used a motion detector like this, so if I'm wrong someone please correct me.

I am using a vivtar 3715 camera 3 MP
This is the camera I am using

[hans maree]

From a quick glance at the manual, that camera does not appear to have any external trigger capability. So unless you can figure out how to do it from the USB connection (if that is even possible) you will need to open it up and do some soldering. What you basically need to do is have a transistor bypass the shutter button.

But before you start with any of that you should first try to light an led using the motion controller output like i described in the last post. Let us know how it goes or if you need any more help.

[Midas]

Ok so I made some changes to the board and I am assuming that the out part on the sensor gives a signal to the camera. So, basically is that the wire that I may need to solder to the shutter. I have already opened the camera and I already assumed that I would need to solder somewhere around the shutter. I saw a youtube video that discussed soldering the shutter to create a trigger that would allow you to take a picture. Which would be helpful in this case as well because once the sensor detects presence, it should trigger the shutter to take a photo. I am also curious now do I even need an integrated circuit for this. I think I do because from what another poster said I need to figure out what sort of signal the out part of the sensor would send. I think he assumed I was assuming an arduino. I just need to send one signal. I really appreciate your help regarding this and everyone who answered on this board. 

[hans maree]

No you definitely don't need an Arduino to do something like this. You can probably get away with a simple transistor and some passive components.

I have attached the schematic for a circuit that I think should work.
The capacitor and resistor form a high-pass filter that shortens the pulse coming from the sensor. This might not be necessary, but the camera may expect the button to be pressed for only a short amount of time.
The resulting pulse is then used to switch on a MOSFET that will trigger the camera. I used a 2N7000, but pretty much any logic level N-channel MOSFET will do.

Also attached is a picture of the breadboard version I made. In this OUT of your sensor would come in where my red oscilloscope probe is connected. You would connect the black wire behind the transistor to the negative side of the trigger button and the white wire to the positive side of the trigger button. To determine what the positive side is you should probably measure this with a multimeter when the camera is on.

EDIT: whoops, I had positive and negative reversed in my explanation fixed now.

[Midas]

  Thanks I am  a bit lost with your schematic so I followed the picture. Could you happen to explain the diagram to me and seeing if I did it correctly I was a bit lost on where you put the capacitor?

[Midas]

I forgot to ask do you think i need to purchase a mosfet I am not sure? 

[miguelvp]

For what I can see, the only thing you have missing is a jumper wire from 10 (the capacitor) to 14 (the out pin from the PIR)

The 2N7000 is a mosfet, I thought you had it in there, but I can't tell what kind of transistor you placed there.

I was waiting for hans to reply.

[Midas]

I have this type of transistor http://www.radioshack.com/2n3904-npn-small-signal-transistor/2762016.html#start=2. Do I also need the external battery still as well?

[miguelvp]

Since we don't know what voltage the camera trigger needs I would go for the Mosfet that hans recommended.

As for external battery, the PIR module can be powered from 3.3V to 5V. (3 AAA batteries should work)

http://www.radioshack.com/radioshack-passive-infrared-sensor/2760347.html

I guess you could power the PIR module with the camera power but, if I was you I would just test it by itself first (not even triggering the camera just yet).

A secondary circuit with an LED with a protection resistor could be placed between VCC and the Mosfet's drain to see if it lights up when heat is present.

[Midas]

Since we don't know what voltage the camera trigger needs I would go for the Mosfet that hans recommended.

As for external battery, the PIR module can be powered from 3.3V to 5V. (3 AAA batteries should work)

http://www.radioshack.com/radioshack-passive-infrared-sensor/2760347.html

I guess you could power the PIR module with the camera power but, if I was you I would just test it by itself first (not even triggering the camera just yet).

A secondary circuit with an LED with a protection resistor could be placed between VCC and the Mosfet's drain to see if it lights up when heat is present.

I have a 9 V external battery but i can get an external battery between the 3.3 and 5 range if you feel 9 is to much it seems like it now that i see the link yikes i dont want to destroy the sensor

[Midas]

Any input from anybody regarding this? 

[sunnyhighway]

I have a 9 V external battery but i can get an external battery between the 3.3 and 5 range if you feel 9 is to much it seems like it now that i see the link yikes i dont want to destroy the sensor

The 9V DC block cell is way too much.
You have to power your circuit on the breadboard with at least 3.3V DC but no more than 5V DC.
3 penlight batteries would be ideal.
This minimizes the risk of destroying something if you make a mistake.

[hans maree]

Hi,

sorry again for the late response. Like I said in the PM my response last week got lost somehow and I had a pretty busy week.

Yes, you will need an external battery for this circuit, as you said yourself between 3.3 and 5V. It is possible to run everything of the internal battery, but we would need to modify the circuit based on how the button is wired up inside the camera (either to ground or to V+). The circuit I gave you does not care about this and should work either way.

I will try to explain the circuit by describing what happens when a signal arrives.
1. When there is no motion detected the sensor outputs a LOW signal. The transistor will also receive a LOW input which means it is turned OFF and it does not conduct any current.
2. When motion is detected the sensor will output a HIGH signal. At first this signal is just passed through the capacitor to the input of the transistor, turning the transistor ON, which will allow current to flow through it.
3. Because of the resistor to ground there will flow a current through the capacitor. When a current flows through a capacitor, the voltage across that capacitor increases (it is charged, kind of like a mini battery). This makes the voltages on the input pin of the transistor slowly drop, which will turn it OFF, making it not conductive again.
4. When no more motion is detected the sensor outputs a LOW signal again. This will discharge the capacitor, which basically resets the circuit to it's starting position.

So the capacitor-resistor combination effectively shortens the pulse coming from the sensor. The length of this pulse can be tuned by changing the values for the capacitor and resistor, the higher the values, the longer the resulting pulse.
The transistor is in this case used as an electrically controlled 'button'. The resistor you use should work just fine.

[Midas]

No you definitely don't need an Arduino to do something like this. You can probably get away with a simple transistor and some passive components.

I have attached the schematic for a circuit that I think should work.
The capacitor and resistor form a high-pass filter that shortens the pulse coming from the sensor. This might not be necessary, but the camera may expect the button to be pressed for only a short amount of time.
The resulting pulse is then used to switch on a MOSFET that will trigger the camera. I used a 2N7000, but pretty much any logic level N-channel MOSFET will do.

Also attached is a picture of the breadboard version I made. In this OUT of your sensor would come in where my red oscilloscope probe is connected. You would connect the black wire behind the transistor to the negative side of the trigger button and the white wire to the positive side of the trigger button. To determine what the positive side is you should probably measure this with a multimeter when the camera is on.

EDIT: whoops, I had positive and negative reversed in my explanation fixed now.

In this picture I couldnt really see the capacitor is it in the same line as the jumper wires that connect to the camera and i couldnt see the row as well. Thank you for the reply i really appreciate it

[hans maree]

is it in the same line as the jumper wires that connect to the camera and i couldnt see the row as well.

I assume you are referring to the COLUMN instead of the row. On a breadboard the columns are labelled with letters and the rows with numbers (its a bit confusing since the rows run vertical depending on how you look at it).
So yes in my picture the capacitor is in the same column as the wires, but that does not matter since only the ROWS are connected inside the breadboard.

Since you seem very new to all this, maybe it is a good idea to try an even simpler circuit first, just to get a feeling of how the breadboard works. You could for example follow this guide:
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Elec_primer-simplecircuit.shtml

Thank you for the reply i really appreciate it

No problem, I'm happy to help!

[Midas]

Ok I made changes and I wanted to get a quick check to make sure the layout is correct. I got an external battery that gives 4.5 V and i put jumper wires on there as well I have opened the camera and will look at the shutters area to see what to solder i do have a multimeter to see which is positive and negative.

[Midas]

No you definitely don't need an Arduino to do something like this. You can probably get away with a simple transistor and some passive components.

I have attached the schematic for a circuit that I think should work.
The capacitor and resistor form a high-pass filter that shortens the pulse coming from the sensor. This might not be necessary, but the camera may expect the button to be pressed for only a short amount of time.
The resulting pulse is then used to switch on a MOSFET that will trigger the camera. I used a 2N7000, but pretty much any logic level N-channel MOSFET will do.

Also attached is a picture of the breadboard version I made. In this OUT of your sensor would come in where my red oscilloscope probe is connected. You would connect the black wire behind the transistor to the negative side of the trigger button and the white wire to the positive side of the trigger button. To determine what the positive side is you should probably measure this with a multimeter when the camera is on.

EDIT: whoops, I had positive and negative reversed in my explanation fixed now.

Hello I would attach the black wire to ground and the white wire to the positive side of course. My issue is if I am looking for ground on the camera where would I find the positive side I know with the camera it would say GND. I am also asking where would I find ground at  least cause I have looked everywhere on the camera I will look between the boards now since I am having issues now. I assumed it would be where you click for the camera to take a photo, but i did not see it there.

[Midas]

I am having issues with trying to find the ground on the camera. I assumed I would see an area that says GND on the camera but I cant seem to find it. I looked around the area where you take a pic but I cant seem to find anything.

[Falcon69]

look at D9.

See the stripe on the chip? The stripe is the cathode. That means other side is the Anode and most likely THAT is connected to ground, or a ground plane.

I would also think that everywhere they have those black screws, that would be a ground plane as well.

[Midas]

The stripe? Are you talking about on the far left side kind of designed as a sketch above the box of white numbers and letters

[Midas]

Here it goes this should help the yellow circle is D9 the red circle I am making an assumption that this is the stripe you are referring to?

[hans maree]

Hi,

Falcon69 is referring to the stripe on the diode itself, the yellowish band above the numbers 3435 on D9.
However there is an easier way to find the correct side of the button. Just turn the camera on and measure the voltage across the button. My guess is that the side where it says SW1 is the positive side.

[Midas]

Hi,

Falcon69 is referring to the stripe on the diode itself, the yellowish band above the numbers 3435 on D9.
However there is an easier way to find the correct side of the button. Just turn the camera on and measure the voltage across the button. My guess is that the side where it says SW1 is the positive side.

I circled in yellow what I tried to measure and what I assumed you meant the areas colored in pink are the areas my lead of the multimeter touched sometimes I got something sometimes I didn't so I was not sure. I also was not sure where to put the red and black led and which point cause even if you switch them it would give a negative number if the area im measuring is indeed positive. 

[hans maree]

You are measuring the right points. If you get a positive voltage on the multimeter your red lead is on the positive side of the button and the black lead on the negative side. These points is where you would solder your wires on.

[Midas]

You are measuring the right points. If you get a positive voltage on the multimeter your red lead is on the positive side of the button and the black lead on the negative side. These points is where you would solder your wires on.

Ok I am still s bit loss on how to measure it I am understand what you are saying and the goal just a bit lost. So the red and black on the diagram is the red and black lead. The brown line connecting the 2 points are the measurement. So, I pretty much measured every point I could find. Ok so the red do on the right that has a diagonal line connecting the black dot gave me a positive voltage it was like 3.22. The left red dot connecting the right black dot gave me a negative. Above those measurements you have a black and red dot line with a horizontal brown line giving a positive measurement. Yet the horizontal brown line at the bottom with the red and black dot hardly gave a voltage from what I can I remember.

[Midas]

Ok I made changes and I wanted to get a quick check to make sure the layout is correct. I got an external battery that gives 4.5 V and i put jumper wires on there as well I have opened the camera and will look at the shutters area to see what to solder i do have a multimeter to see which is positive and negative.

Is this correct my layout and I plan on using these wires from radioshack to solder?
http://www.radioshack.com/solderless-breadboard-jumper-wire-kit/2760173.html#.VKIzGoBA

[Midas]

Can you also tell me where I would solder the wires as well?

[Midas]

  Any input from anyone regarding my last couple of questions?

[WattsUp]

You can use those jumpers, but they are intended for breadboard use mainly. I would get some stranded wire (the inside is made of many thin copper wires) which is more flexible, and will be easy to solder.
Ben

[WattsUp]

Also, if it works like a normal push button the two vertical points would be connected to each other. You can check this by using the continuity setting on your multimeter, by putting one lead on each point, lined up vertically as seen on this picture. Also, if you are getting some voltage, it is almost certainly the positive part, as the fluctuation could just be a dodgy connection. Hope this helps,
Ben

[Midas]

Also, if it works like a normal push button the two vertical points would be connected to each other. You can check this by using the continuity setting on your multimeter, by putting one lead on each point, lined up vertically as seen on this picture. Also, if you are getting some voltage, it is almost certainly the positive part, as the fluctuation could just be a dodgy connection. Hope this helps,
Ben

ok so the vertical points is where I would measure and solder?

[WattsUp]

If I understand correctly, you want to bypass the original switch, and replace it with your own, which will be controlled via your sensor. Therefore, you must solder your circuit onto the contact which shows no voltage when you measured it (or the pair of contacts).
Ben

[Midas]

If I understand correctly, you want to bypass the original switch, and replace it with your own, which will be controlled via your sensor. Therefore, you must solder your circuit onto the contact which shows no voltage when you measured it (or the pair of contacts).
Ben

ok yes when I would measure the vertical points I would get zero on the left side and fluctuations on the right. I assumed you meant I am suppose to see a voltage when I measure it. I guess I would solder on the right side since I get zero what do you think? 

[WattsUp]

Ok so you have to solder your power (Vcc) connection to your +ve side of the battery, and the GND part to a GND point of the circuit. Then you solder the output signal of your sensor to the side of the switch that is actuated when you push it. This means that instead of the switch sending the signal to take a picture, it is your sensor when it registers movement.

[Midas]

Also, if it works like a normal push button the two vertical points would be connected to each other. You can check this by using the continuity setting on your multimeter, by putting one lead on each point, lined up vertically as seen on this picture. Also, if you are getting some voltage, it is almost certainly the positive part, as the fluctuation could just be a dodgy connection. Hope this helps,
Ben

Another thing so basically at the top of the button on picture it would be positive and the bottom of button would be negative and I should not get a voltage when I measure them. In the diagram I measured horizontally and diagonally because I got a numerical voltage I assumed I was suppose to. It makes sense that I am not suppose to get a voltage where I measure because you don't want to distract other areas on the camera or destroy.

[Midas]

Ok so you have to solder your power (Vcc) connection to your +ve side of the battery, and the GND part to a GND point of the circuit. Then you solder the output signal of your sensor to the side of the switch that is actuated when you push it. This means that instead of the switch sending the signal to take a picture, it is your sensor when it registers movement.

On page 2 I kind of already did my breadboard I took a picture of it and showed cause a member did a schematic for me here is the link its on reply #26. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/circuit-board-help/15/

[Midas]

Hello I have a plan I would like to share and I would like to thank everyone's help in this thread and thank everyone for taking the time to read it. The first photo there is a diagram I have. The 2nd photo below it is just the original photo of the camera with no writing or drawings on it. In the photo, the area encircled in yellow is the area I measured and planned. The red and black points measured I will solder the cords there (is that logic correct meaning is that the correct points to wire my jumper wire?).These points are also the area where I put my red and black leads of the multimeter and got zero little fluctuations and was quite steady. In the pink area encircled, a person told me to measure that area to determine where the ground plane was located. The red and black points these are the points I put my red and black leads of my multimeter and got a fluctuation in voltage but generally zero I think I can say not sure (their were huge fluctuations so I wanted to check it again).

So basically should I solder the jumper wire on that exact points in the yellow encircled area?

[Midas]

 

[Zero999]

It looks like it should work.

Try leaving the switch in place, just in case.

[Midas]

It looks like it should work.

Try leaving the switch in place, just in case.

Switch?

[WattsUp]

Button

[Midas]

Button

Thank you that was the plan to leave everything as is and take some multi stranded wire and just solder the wires to those points. I purchased a multicore stranded wire on accident would that be fine to use I have been researching that all day and cant seem to find anything pertaining to it

[Midas]

Hello I lucked up and found a great camera for a cheap price and it is absolutely fantastic. The photos are of a better quality what worries me is that I may not be able to solder the cords to the shutter button like previously. Here is a picture. The button on the left is the power button and the button on the right is the shutter button. I am a bit nervous and not sure about it I would think the technique would be the same,