Design & layout software for beginners

[jlmoon]

good god, to use orcad you need a degree in.... orcad

lol yes Simon, I forget about the difficulty factor at times.  When they drop it on your desk and say.. "learn this" .. guess we have no choice.. 

[DanielS]

LOL, Android PCB design software!!
Comedy gold!

Many modern Android devices are powerful enough to start running some non-trivial productivity software. PCB schematic and layout editing do not seem that far-fetched to me but you would want to use something like Samsung's or Nvidia's pen for more precise pointing and multi-function presses/touches. An external USB or Bluetooth mouse and keyboard would not hurt either.

The biggest obstacle to productivity on Android-based device is the general lack of productivity-oriented applications and awareness of existing ones. The heaps of similar-themed so-so apps do not help with spotting the apps you need - when one exists that does the job right - either.

[Wilksey]

LOL, Android PCB design software!!
Comedy gold!

Many modern Android devices are powerful enough to start running some non-trivial productivity software. PCB schematic and layout editing do not seem that far-fetched to me but you would want to use something like Samsung's or Nvidia's pen for more precise pointing and multi-function presses/touches. An external USB or Bluetooth mouse and keyboard would not hurt either.

The biggest obstacle to productivity on Android-based device is the general lack of productivity-oriented applications and awareness of existing ones. The heaps of similar-themed so-so apps do not help with spotting the apps you need - when one exists that does the job right - either.

I just can't ever imagine running something like Eagle or Altium on my android tablet that is all, I mean, I make extensive use of all keys and 3 mouse buttons, in terms of productivity and speed, I do struggle to see how they could make something on par with a standard PC package.

[Simon]

only andriod on a desktop or laptop

[coppice]

LOL, Android PCB design software!!
Comedy gold!

People are really spoilt. You do realise that most of history's PCBs were designed on something much less capable that even a cheap Android phone? Less speed, less memory, less screen resolution. I wouldn't want to develop on a phone when I have the choice of powerful inexpensive modern desktop machines, but is it really comedy to suggest it?

[Simon]

human/machine interaction is the only problem, i used orcad on dos!!!! i even autorouted on 400MHz later. the problem with a tablet or phone is lack of screen space and a mouse and keyboard

[zapta]

I wouldn't want to develop on a phone when I have the choice of powerful inexpensive modern desktop machines, but is it really comedy to suggest it?

He said 'Android'. It's you that came up with 'phone'.

[coppice]

I wouldn't want to develop on a phone when I have the choice of powerful inexpensive modern desktop machines, but is it really comedy to suggest it?

He said 'Android'. It's you that came up with 'phone'.

That kind of misses the point of what I said, but saying phone was sloppiness on my part. I have seen people doing some serious on the move mechanical CAD on iPads, and people probably do that on Android tablets too. I would really like an electronics CAD reader for tablets. When you are on the move, a zoomable searchable version of the schematic and artwork would be very useful, even if you don't want to generate them on such a device.

[miguelvp]

Surely if Top of the Line input methods like the Wacom tablets with display are used by our artists for 2D 3D modeling at $2K+ a pop you could use a desktop tablet running android (20+ inches they do make them) to do the same.

It's just a matter of someone creating the app.

Touch and camera input is not too far fetched to do some cool practical ways to work and interact with programs, the mouse is a strange beast that people didn't grasp (now of course it's easy because computers are all around us and they all use mice)

While working on a project decades back we placed a system in the Hospital for the doctors to have access to patient images and it had a nice DEC mouse those big round ones. All running on a DEC Alpha workstation, we where going to train them the next day but just walking by we found one of the doctors using the system. He turned the mouse upside down and he was using it as a trackball (since that's usually what medical devices had at the time)

So not as laughable a concept really.

[coppice]

While working on a project decades back we placed a system in the Hospital for the doctors to have access to patient images and it had a nice DEC mouse those big round ones. All running on a DEC Alpha workstation, we where going to train them the next day but just walking by we found one of the doctors using the system. He turned the mouse upside down and he was using it as a trackball (since that's usually what medical devices had at the time)

There used to be mice specifically design to be invertable for use as a trackball.

[miguelvp]

This one wasn't, Edit, this is an animated gif but it doesn't animate in the embedded image but clicking in the attached one it shows the inside and the little wheels it didn't have a ball at all, not sure why he even thought it was a trackball).



Although I gotta admit it was a great and comfortable mouse now they are too narrow and make your hands cramp.

Btw I'm using my old transformer prime with keyboard to post this, it's easier to use the touch screen for the forum than to use a mouse on the desktop.

[janekm]

(snip)
Start with Eagle. There's tons of tutorials and part libraries available. Basically, if you go with Eagle, you will be able to do everything a beginner might need.

I'm running OSX and Eagle works fine. I've tried KiCAD, but the install never worked well. (snip)

I can't agree there... Eagle has the most obnoxiously terrible user interface I have encountered. It completely contravenes any sensible UI standards developed in the last 20 years, which leads to UI lock-in as someone who has gotten used to Eagle doesn't want to relearn a better PCB package.

Eagle does not have a native Mac UI (only a terrible WINE port of a terrible Windows port of a non-standard DOS UI). Whether it runs in Mac OS should not be the deciding criterion for what PCB design software to use.

KiCad has a similar learning curve to Eagle, unfortunately, but at least you're learning a tool that is getting better all the time and is free for ever.

For someone starting out now, I would recommend KiCad or waiting for the Altium one, and possibly to consider Cadence PCB as they have a free lite version: http://www.orcad.com/resources/orcad-lite-overview with limits suitable for a beginner, and the quite reasonable option of £500 / year rental after that.

[Mechatrommer]

my point was... i will chase whatever OS that "best" productivity softwares can run in, buy the machine and OS for it. not the other way around. i got sick with commentary such as "this software cannot run in XXX OS? not for me! and i dont need it!" wanker. thats it, i can elaborate more about this but i'm too lazy to type. long story short, Windows has it all imho, hence thats what i'm using. dont get me wrong this is not "this particular OS or that particular OS is good or not" cyberwar, if one day Linux or MacOS or even Android "has it all" i need, i'll sure change my fav OS to suit, i'm not that "blind-OS-religious-nut", ymmv.

[westfw]

Eagle does not have a native Mac UI (only a terrible WINE port

I think you're out of date on that.  The very first version of EAGLE that ran on Mac worked through X11, and had the same GUI as the linux version (not very mac-like, but pretty brilliant at a 1st effort, IMO.)  The next release had a native Mac UI (as much as your "terrible UI contravening sensible UI design" can, anyway.  Mostly that means that a bunch of commands moved from the EAGLE window menus to the apple top-bar menu.  It feels pretty native to me.)

i will chase whatever OS that "best" productivity softwares can run in

Agreed, in principle.  People unhappy that their $5k software won't run on their preferred $1k hardware platform are being a bit silly.  OTOH, if you have one set of "best" tools that work on one platform, and another set that work better on some other platform, it is surely ... annoying (easier than it used to be, what with VMs and KVM switches and networks and Remote Desktop Environments, but still annoying.)

KiCad ... at least [is] a tool that is getting better all the time

Actually, I've been pretty pleased with the rate of improvement of EAGLE.  Each new release seems to have several things that were widely requested by their community.  And there are releases.  Some of the other products I've seen people mention ("you can still get the DOS version of OrCAD", or gEDA to a lesser extent) are quite scary in that respect; effectively dead and unsupported.

[Simon]

I'd not want to get an OS just because a piece of software will run on that platform only apparently there is an x86 port of android so hey maybe it will become the yet another linux OS to rule them all. I must admit that I gave up with linux because none of it's developers have any interest in making it user friendly and due to the huge fragmentation nothing will ever standardize because everyone thinks they're right and wants to rule world. Granted we all hate windows but it's the only common and viable platform unless reactos or android become serious contenders without there being thousands of variant made by people who want o have it their way and sod everyone else.

[miguelvp]

This 24" android desktop (no battery powered) can do virtual desktops and of course run native android
http://www.viewsonic.com/us/vsd241.html

But this is 2 generations behind since there there is a Tegra 4 and a Tegra K1 and at the end of the year Nvidia will have the K1 64bit. Both K1s have 192 CUDA capable GPU cores that support OpenGL 4.4 (not the ES crap) and DirectX 12 (but I guess for that someone will have to port windows for their new processor.

Interesting about their 64 bit processor is that it has micro instructions and it can even do x86, but NVidia couldn't get a license from Intel so no dice in that front yet.

So the tech for an Android desktop is here already, add the Citrix tech to run remote virtual desktops with NVidia Grid virtual GPUs and wait until  those prices come down for such cloud computing. Then you'll be renting the VM you need for when you need it.

I see no problem with this taking over soon since the Android ecosystem is growing and more serious Apps are being done. So yeah there is an opportunity open for whoever develops a good CAD/CAE/Layout etc.

And if you need a mouse Android support mice and keyboards. The major bad thing with android is Sound, they just can't seem to get that right.
 

[Simon]

For that much i have a high performing PC

[miguelvp]

For that much i have a high performing PC

$300-$400 for the touch screen monitor that leaves you $250-$150 for your high performance PC

[Simon]

I'll keep my mouse and keyboard thanks.

[miguelvp]

I'll keep my mouse and keyboard thanks.

But Android supports both.

[Kostas]

I'll keep my mouse and keyboard thanks.

But Android supports both.

Perhaps it does, but here's another thing: You don't really have full control of your device under Android. Don't get me wrong, I have an Android smartphone and I wouldn't like getting back to ordinary yesterday's phones. But sometimes, especially if you have a resource constrained device, things can become outrageously slow. I wouldn't dare using my phone without a task manager like "Advanced Task Killer".  Every application can start by itself whenever it pleases, the vast majority of them do not even have an exit, as in terminate application, option. They just go to the background and occupy resources. Of course, Google designers say that the operating system decides when a task has to be stopped, but this doesn't really work very well. When using my Win7/Linux PC I have full control of what is running, but not in Android. I find it ridiculous...

[miguelvp]

Android is Linux.

I never have to reboot my tablet, ICS but anyways I agree nothing is perfect.

But to the point, there is no reason layout and design software wouldn't be able to run on Android.

[zapta]

Whether it runs in Mac OS should not be the deciding criterion for what PCB design software to use.

The OP asked specifically for MAC OSX software.

It's a deciding factor for me. I prefer to have a single Mac notebook.

[janekm]

Whether it runs in Mac OS should not be the deciding criterion for what PCB design software to use.

The OP asked specifically for MAC OSX software.

It's a deciding factor for me. I prefer to have a single Mac notebook.

VMs exist, surely? That's what I do, Mac laptop with Windows VM specifically for PCB design software. All the "serious" PCB design software is for Windows, unfortunately. You are going to suffer a serious limitation in your productivity using inferior tools (Lack of proper routing support like push&shove, lack of footprint wizards, awkward handling of planes, via stitching, ...).
Still, I think if I was starting out now I would seriously try to get to grips with Kicad as it shows a lot of promise, especially now that it has push & shove routing. The learning curve is pretty tough though due to the confusing UI (http://www.amateurengineer.com/?p=442 ) .

[Simon]

err, you mean kicad has had the autorouter updated ? last time i used it having just manually placed some of the traces it ploughed it's traces through mine (big BANG!)