Author Topic: Dremel / Dremel like device?  (Read 4174 times)

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Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2018, 06:36:51 am »
Quote
As Bud mentioned above, the high speed and low torque is not what you want for drilling and miling -- even less so with plastics, which will melt unless you water-cool. And besides, while the better brands (Dremel, Proxxon) should have decent bearings for the drill shaft, those bearings are not designed to withstand the lateral forces during milling!

For drilling, yeh. For milling? A small rotary tool will work great for milling plastic. Well, I can at least vouche for a Proxxon. The thing with drilling is the entire bit will touch the plastic. When milling, you can set your depth of cut. Plexiglass is one of the more difficult plastics to work with for the melting, and even that is eminently machinable with a Proxxon tool (and a rigid setup with fence). It's just a matter of using the right bit and adjusting the depth of cut and feed rate. ABS is very machinable. HDPE and Delrin are a dream.  I have never had to reduce rpm when milling plastic.

One of my contractors had hundreds of ABS enclosures custom machined with cutouts, and ~1 inch hole was too small by about 10 mils radius. They needed them ASAP. I experimented with pillar drill and forstner bits to enlarge the holes. Freehanding with Proxxon router table worked faster and cleaner, leaving crispy edges and leaving a "perfectly" round hole (to the naked eye). I used a small carbide end mill and cut 4 small half moons in the circumference at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock for reference. Then I made light passes around the circumference until these notches disappeared. Forstner bit or holes saw that size couldn't cut cleanly at any speed on my drill press, and the best finish step would have been the router table. It was easier to just do the entire thing on the router table.

I have indeed tried milling things with my drill press. Even at the highest speed, it is not fast enough do much milling. But maybe I don't have the right bits for that. In general, I would probably say a pillar drill is a more useful tool for drilling holes. A rotary tool in a router table is way more useful for me for milling slots and holes and recesses and radially shaping sheet metal, FR-4, and plastic up to 3/4" thick.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 07:27:59 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2018, 07:22:23 am »
Hi, i was a Proxxon fanboy until i burned out my dear IBS/E..
Yes, it's well built with metal parts and very precise collets; flexy shaft works like a charm..it's really quiet and vibration free compared to  any Dremel tools..but..
It has no overload and over temperature protection..
Mine died after 10 min of "abusing" ...Electronics and motor totally burned to death !!!!
NOT to buy for "slightly" heavy jobs :(

PS: i've repaired it by myself, 25€ motor and few cents Triac and diodes ;)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 07:31:02 am by Emi »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2018, 07:29:44 am »
^ Where did you buy the motor?

I wore out the motor on my mains Proxxon after several years of hard use. The rest of the tool is in pristine condition, and I think the TRIAC is fine, even. The motor would sometimes run if you gave it a twist while turning it on. I think it's the same model number... The regular mains one, not the heavy duty one with the metal housing?

I didn't skip a beat. Replaced mine and am just a hair more patient and quick to readjust my cut if it feels like too much resistance or if it sounds off (I think what I did to the poor proxxon is set the tool too high in the table so the chuck was rubbing on the insert plate for an extended period). I went with the 15VAC transformer powered model this time around, since the tools are cheaper to replace (assuming the transformer lasts forever).

« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 07:38:23 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2018, 07:38:11 am »
Luckly i've a toy/model/bricolage shop nearby which sells Proxxon tool and spare parts..
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2018, 07:40:34 am »
^ Ok. I think when I looked into buying from Proxxon, it was very expensive. Anyhow, what did you find for the heavy jobs? Air powered die grinder? 1 HP trim/laminate router? Proper mill spindle? :) :)
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2018, 07:50:06 am »
Kress Fme 1050 with a set of collets... a bit an overkill but i'm sure it will not burn !  ;D   ( not too handy in fact..)

« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 01:35:34 am by Emi »
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2018, 08:47:44 am »
^ Where did you buy the motor?

I wore out the motor on my mains Proxxon after several years of hard use. The rest of the tool is in pristine condition, and I think the TRIAC is fine, even. The motor would sometimes run if you gave it a twist while turning it on. I think it's the same model number... The regular mains one, not the heavy duty one with the metal housing?



Proxxon uses very simple regulators in their hand tools... triac drives a 1n4007 bridge..no protection, no filters  ..really poor design!  The dc motor will immediatly burn if one of this rectifiers shorts..

(but in your case could be simply worned motor brushes )
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 08:49:47 am by Emi »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2018, 08:50:59 am »
Quote
Kress Fme 1050 with a set of collets
Me likey. I've had a quick peek, and it looks like all the high end ones are 220V, only. But the KME 500 is on my radar, now.

It wasn't the brushes. It was.. uhh. The contactors, I think they're called? The contacts on the outside of the spinning part of the motor were all jacked. It would turn by finger power with some terrible roughness in correct direction. And it would catch and seize solid the other direction. There was plenty of brush left (and I even tried rounding the edges of the brushes, but the problem appeared to be the contactors). Considering the way I pushed it for so long, I wasn't terribly disappointed by the failure. Let's say I got my money's worth out of the original, and ditto the replacement.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 09:08:47 am by KL27x »
 

Offline SirAlucard

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2018, 08:51:04 am »
I don't know what's around you, but personally I've been looking at this Dremel Rotary Workbench. They have it available at Lowes.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2018, 11:45:53 am »
How bad can some of the knockoffs be for occasional user/hobbyist/EE to grind, drill and cut?   :-//

Some of them have similar specs, speeds and take the same attachments (or close enough)

They are CHEAP, well built and offer a replacement warranty


Bunnings 'Ozito' brand comes to mind, buy it local, IN STOCK!  :o   return, refund or exchange if unhappy or faulty,

and some good advice from the staff   (if their brains aren't being drained by cheapskate wannabee DIYer queue jump trash, lacking in manners and fair go)


Hmmm, I might pop over to Bunnings asap and check some Rotary thingies out, I sorta need one sometimes for small fixit mods 

None of this suss online 'OneHungLow' click crap and waiting for me, thank you very much    ;D
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2018, 12:24:28 pm »
Tip. The speed control on mine (Canadian brand "Mastercraft") looses most torque below 50% so as usual, Mr Variac saves the day. YMMV..
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2018, 02:24:39 pm »
Hoarder Amnesia Alert:   :palm:

I have one of those 'knockoff' Ozito Rotary Tools new in the box purchased 5 or 6 years ago during post Christmas/Happy Spending Holidays sales,
put away for the next -new tool day 'n play- and forgotten 
What I was going to use it for, got forgotten too.
Does this happen to anyone else ?   :-//


Anyways, just unboxed it and gave it a quick go, this is a killa tool that goes from snail to 30k rpm with variable speed, runs cool and won't bog down easily under load.  :clap:

It lacks any serious freebie/starter cut-off wheel attachments which I will soon hunt down (or 'invent'  >:D )
but hoping all these attachments are a standard shaft arrangement to save me the R+D hassle 

I'll check out the Dremel tool too now that I have a reference/starting point of expectation, and see what the hoorah is about,
whether it's worthy to draw out the credit card as a second tool addition to save time and bother on attachment changes,
or just awesome marketing and product flooding,
and better off going another decent quality knockoff instead, and blow saved money on attachments and spares



---------------------------------

Tip. The speed control on mine (Canadian brand "Mastercraft") looses most torque below 50% so as usual, Mr Variac saves the day. YMMV..

No magic smoke vapor trails or carbon brush sizzling when cranking it up or down with Mr. Variac ?


« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 02:30:17 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline 6PTsocket

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2018, 04:20:10 pm »
Dremmel now offers a 12 volt lithium tool that is a lot heftier than  previous models. It is the 2000 or 2200 depending on the accessory package Another company rhat has entered the market is Milwaukee, thay offer a similar 12 volt tool.

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Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2018, 12:55:50 am »
If Dremel tools are quite good to be considered as Proxxon alternatives (and so many chinese ones ) this can not be said for their plastic column supports  :palm:
Proxxon products like bfb 2000 with optional kt150 xy table are totally another world ...All metal,dovetails,extremely precise and no flexy stuff!
you can get Proxy in Germany  at Voelkner.de  8)

lowest price in EU imho

https://www.voelkner.de/search/search.html?seoPath=%2Fproxxon%2Fq&sortPrice=desc&followSearch=9996&ignoreForCache=client_ip&client_ip=188.228.201.161&disableSqm=true
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 01:42:23 am by Emi »
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2018, 01:21:12 am »
..
Tip. The speed control on mine (Canadian brand "Mastercraft") looses most torque below 50% so as usual, Mr Variac saves the day. YMMV..
No magic smoke vapor trails or carbon brush sizzling when cranking it up or down with Mr. Variac ?
No smoke or sizzle, I suspect between a low quality thumb-pot and built-in triac thinning-out the wave-form, the variac just does a better job at providing 40-50v for most light-duty operation. I never need more than 80v (otherwise poor bearings make it too nerve-wracking to use).
 

Offline Nlombardo

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2018, 06:40:38 am »
If your enclosure is still in pieces (not already assembled into a box shape) you can use a scroll saw to make very clean cuts in plastic, wood, and metal as long as they arent too thick. Just start your hole with a drill first. They can be found very cheaply used, and new ones arent very expensive either. Just make sure you use a saw blade designed for the material you want to cut.


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Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2018, 08:32:43 am »
Quote
I never need more than 80v (otherwise poor bearings make it too nerve-wracking to use).

This is part of what I like about the proxxon rotary tools. My mains Dremel has way more raw power. But if you aren't done in 20 seconds, your hand will go numb. I don't think the problem with (my) Dremels are crummy bearings or ill-fitting housing. I think the vibrations are mostly because the motors are not balanced well enough for the speeds at stake. I have poked around inside and shored things up. But there's nothing much to improve. If it was a bad bearing, you could go over to McMaster-Carr and replace it with something better. The runout is a whole other issue which can add to the vibrations, but my Dremels are hand-numbing even without a bit in place. Aside from the discomfort, this also makes it a bit dicey to use small carbide bits on hard materials, freehand. The Proxxon tool might have less power, but in many cases the tortoise will cross the line first. Quiet and comfortable goes a long way towards getting things done. I haven't tried ALL of the Dremel models, but the 3 or 4 I have owned are all buzzy. I have used 2 out of 3 of the Proxxon models (there are really only 3, but they come in different accessory packages), and they are both super smooth and quiet. I also like that there are only 3 and all have the same mounting point, rather than coming out with a new flavor every 4 years with different mounting hardpoints (or complete lack of anything sensible) on every model.

I am not a brand whore. I love Harbor Freight. And I laugh at some of Proxxon's other tools (way under torqued giant disc sander for big $$$ ?) Their rotary tools are very well made and potentially worth the money in this particular niche. I fear they maybe spend a little too much time and money on the housings, even. Way overbuilt with high grade plastics, which appear to be deburred to perfection by hand. There's a little too much "art" in there for my dollars. It's perfect. And perfection costs money. But the price is still good (in the US market, at least).


« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 09:38:07 am by KL27x »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2018, 09:01:08 am »
Hi, i was a Proxxon fanboy until i burned out my dear IBS/E..
Yes, it's well built with metal parts and very precise collets; flexy shaft works like a charm..it's really quiet and vibration free compared to  any Dremel tools..but..
It has no overload and over temperature protection..
Mine died after 10 min of "abusing" ...Electronics and motor totally burned to death !!!!
NOT to buy for "slightly" heavy jobs :(

PS: i've repaired it by myself, 25€ motor and few cents Triac and diodes ;)
I'm not sure I'd consider failure under abuse to be a flaw; I mean, what were you doing with the thing?!?

I have heard of people damaging the bearings or bushings or something when attempting to use a Proxxon rotary tool as a serious milling motor, but that's it.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2018, 09:11:50 am »
^I think he mentioned a lack of thermal protection/cut-off as an issue. Certainly, these tools do not have the balls to do heavy grinding. If you need more power, don't bother.

As for the external ball bearing, you can buy the exact bearing in the Proxxon rotary tools from McMaster-Carr. They are about 7 or 8 dollars for 1, IIRC. Lucky you, if this is the part that fails. But IMO, it is unlikely that this is the part that will wear out first, under abuse. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but it seems to me this bearing reduces friction and heat (to protect the housing from melting) under sideload, and is not actually all that vital. I mean, if it were worn, the thing would still work ok-ish, not be totally borked. It would increase the drag and reduce the power applied to the work piece, particularly under sideload. But it wouldn't do anything all that drastic.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 11:28:02 am by KL27x »
 

Offline paulca

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2018, 09:18:52 am »
I did own a Dremel once.  I hardly used it.  Lent it to my brother.  It seemed he didn't understand low torque high rpm, complained it was rubbish and just keep slowing down and stopping, then stopped working at all.

I got it back to do some work.  Friction clutch completely burnt out.  Priced a replacement, it wasn't much more expensive to replace the whole unit and they only sold the whole shaft and motor assembly.

I gather if I'd tried harder, or maybe today I could find a replacement cheaper.  I tried to jam it with various things, like cardboard or foam, but it just ate them and starting spinning with actually zero torque, wouldn't cut a paper bag.
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2018, 09:55:00 am »
Side note: The 15V* Proxxon will happily run off DC, as well. You could easily run it off any suitable PSU or power source. I have removed and discarded the entire back half of one of these tools, all the electronics and even the housing (fortuitously, the housing is molded in separate pieces, leaving just the right amount of housing to hold onto), and strapped on a 4S LiPo RC battery in its place. I didn't add any speed control, just a slide switch for always on and a tac switch and a FET to switch it on/off by temp press. I also sometimes run it with bench PSU at a lower voltage when drilling pcb's.  I actually never purchased the external transformer until years later, when I changed my router table over to this model. And I still haven't ever run the router-Proxxon at lower than max rpm for anything, so maybe I shouldn't have bothered, lol. In fact, thinking about it, my battery powered version probably has more torque, what with the 45C rating on the 2Mah battery.

*Well, whoops. I was just stunned at noticing "12V" on the transformer. I have overvolted this tool many a time. I'm pretty sure I have run it at around 15V under load from my lab PSU. Not to mention the no load voltage of maybe 16V that the battery gives. (The motor and mechanicals can take it, anyhow. Not sure of the electronics). It has been so many years since I knew the proper voltage, I readjusted the rating of the tool to my own standard. :)


Quote
(but in your case could be simply worned motor brushes )
I actually still have it lying around in case I could source a new motor. So I may have misremembered some things, because I definitely didn't take the motor to pieces, before, although there are signs I tried. But I must have made some assumptions based on looking through the slots and seeing the tips of the brushes and whatnot. So I just now dremelled the motor apart, and the brushes were still huge (although I couldn't have known that, before, lol) and the contactors look ok. But there's a roughness somewhere closer to the tip of the motor spindle. Rough enough that the motor could only start up, sometimes. And eventually not at all. Internal bushing/bearing inside the motor? Can't quite get it apart that far. Maybe just years of FR-4 dust finding their way in.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 11:32:13 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2018, 12:34:49 pm »
Found a boxed set of Dremel brand 'EZLock Cutting Kit' assorted 'grinder style' cutting wheels for metal and plastic with the tool-less no brainer adapter for $29 at the local Bunnings hardware mart,
loads cheaper than buying the bits individually.  :phew:
They seem like good quality, and a once off buy, 10 discs should last me a long time

Always wanted a mini me grinder for odd jobs.. and keep my 9" 230mm angle grinder from getting lonely LOL


FWIW gents, these rotary tools must be a PITA to use having to mess with the recessed on/off rocker switch all the time   |O

I have a momentary 240v rated 10A foot switch for such occasions, and let me tell you it's hand tool and mini tool heaven  :clap:

with less chance for oopsies and accidents, instant 'time out' for pause and evaluation, 

the tool will last a lot longer and get it's chance to cool down between micro demolition chores as most motors should,

and your ears get a break too  ;D
 

Offline SirAlucard

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2018, 05:43:02 pm »
Found a boxed set of Dremel brand 'EZLock Cutting Kit' assorted 'grinder style' cutting wheels for metal and plastic with the tool-less no brainer adapter for $29 at the local Bunnings hardware mart,
loads cheaper than buying the bits individually.  :phew:
They seem like good quality, and a once off buy, 10 discs should last me a long time

I've actually got the same kit you're talking about. Its quite nice, and the little case it comes with holds any extras nicely too. I haven't really used it much as of yet, but it's there if needed. :)
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2018, 06:26:08 pm »

^I think he mentioned a lack of thermal protection/cut-off as an issue. Certainly, these tools do not have the balls to do heavy grinding. If you need more power, don't bother.


oh,yes, i was working on 2 strokes engine modding ;
milling slots in cast iron cylinders and brushing/polishing exaust pipes when the magic smoke began...
I used flexy shaft and flapwheels for that job but i noticed too late it was in overload  :'(


 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2018, 06:35:52 pm »

*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 
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