Author Topic: Dremel / Dremel like device?  (Read 4550 times)

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Offline paulca

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Dremel / Dremel like device?
« on: March 08, 2018, 07:54:25 am »
Are there any recommendations for dremel/rotatory tools and stands to make life easier for making enclosures?

99% likely to be small ABS / plastic enclosures.  I was thinking a dremel was something you bought for the local hardware shop for £80 that came with virtually nothing, but a quick search on ebay suggests I can get a rotary tool with a pilar stand and router bits for under £100!

The choice is a bit wide though and I'm sure some of the compatibles are rubbish, so I thought I would ask.
"What could possibly go wrong?"
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Offline HecticZA

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2018, 08:06:09 am »
Maybe Proxxon?
Haven't used them. I still have the old Dremmel 300 with a flex shaft and still happy with it.

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Offline Benta

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2018, 08:35:07 am »
In the hobbyist area, there's basically only Dremel and Proxxon. In your local supermarket you'll encounter similar tools as "no-name", far east products sometimes. Very cheap, and that's it.
Advantage of Dremel and Proxxon: they're a whole range of machines and accessories, that you'll also be able to buy years from now, plus spare parts.

Which one you choose is up to you.

If you quadruple your budget, there are professional/industrial machines available.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2018, 09:01:01 am »
I got my Dremel tool at a garage sale for something like $5, a heck of a lot cheaper than buying one new. For the accessories I've found that a lot of the Harbor Freight bits and cutoff wheels work as well as the genuine stuff for a whole lot less money.

When it comes to enclosures though I rarely use a rotary tool. Instead a step drill (those funny cone shaped things), nibbler tool and hand files are my usual tools of choice.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2018, 09:17:23 am »
Dremel is a high speed low torque tool, not the best tool to work plastic. If you want to make round holes get a drill stand. If you want to make rectangular holes using just a drill or Dremel it is going to be difficult to make nice straight and corner cuts. You are talking now about a entry level milling machine or router and that cost more than a 100 buck.
 
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2018, 09:47:05 am »
If you are building more than 2 or 3, a real semi-pro or professional drill press will get you much more mileage.  Including the ability to mount jigs on the base of the frame, the ability to use low rpm/high torque speeds.  And square-punch drill bits:

Square Hole Drill Bits Mortising Chisel Set, Mortise Chisel & Bit Set : https://www.amazon.ca/Atoplee-Woodworker-Square-Mortising-Mortise/dp/B01CXX1K3C/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_469_lp_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=S1NFNMFFVWAY1TYJDCQ9

For those square holes.  -The trick here is to drill your plastic above a piece of hard wood to prevent really bad bent corners in the plastic. -  You might want to warm up the plastic with a hair dryer to soften it if it is a brittle plastic.

Example drill press:
https://www.amazon.com/WEN-4208-5-Speed-Drill-Press/dp/B00HQONFVE/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1520462907&sr=1-1&keywords=drill+press

Attachable vice for drill press:
https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Tool-W3939-Hammer-Tough/dp/B002RTKFWU/ref=pd_bxgy_469_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B002RTKFWU&pd_rd_r=JYQGJJPEB2A6F72R27D9&pd_rd_w=QVwCC&pd_rd_wg=8dUVp&psc=1&refRID=JYQGJJPEB2A6F72R27D9&dpID=41BCJvSji8L&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=detail
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 09:50:56 am by BrianHG »
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Offline jpanhalt

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2018, 09:49:31 am »
An important part of drilling plastic is the drill bit.   Typical 118° twist drills tend to "hog in", meaning they pull themselves in.   With hard plastics (e.g. acrylic and polycarbonate) that can lead to cracking.  With abs, it can lead to control difficulty with the object climbing uncontrollably up the bit.


The solution is to "dub off" the acute cutting angle of the lips to more like 90° so the action is more scraping than digging.  That is easy to do on a bench grinder or you can buy plastic cutting bits.   Of course, speed is a major variable, and you don't want the plastic to melt and bind to the drill bit.
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2018, 10:08:26 am »
Actually, with the Dremel, I do like their miniature cutting disc.  Carefully, I have cut and sanded openings on cheap Chinese project boxes using it without melting the plastic on the slowest speed.

With a good set, you also get milling/burrs bits which also carve away the plastic without making crap edges or melting.  But, they are harder to control than drill bits.  You need a sturdy stand for the drill to do any good with them.  Which kinda leaves you back to my above drill press, with a good dremel bit kit.

https://www.amazon.com/10pcs-Milling-Rotary-Carving-Dremel/dp/B01H72VWYG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1520464534&sr=8-21&keywords=dremel+bit+set
https://www.amazon.com/Yosoo-Tungsten-Carbide-Dremel-Rotary/dp/B00CYA6I46/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1520464273&sr=8-8&keywords=dremel+bit+set


https://www.amazon.com/Lukcase-Diamond-Cutting-Cut-off-Blades/dp/B01LWYXPJZ/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1520464273&sr=8-12-spons&keywords=dremel+bit+set&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/WORKPRO-276-piece-Accessories-Universal-Polishing/dp/B0109U88KE/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1520464273&sr=8-7&keywords=dremel+bit+set
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 10:23:50 am by BrianHG »
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2018, 12:52:05 pm »
A router table is very useful for making cutouts in an enclosure. A 1/8" carbide endmill will cut any plastic, sheet metal, or FR-4. But some larger tungsten carbide burrs will do the coarser work, faster, and save some time and wear and tear. Proxxon tools are much lower in noise and runout than a Dremel, but they are a bit spendy. I'm not sure if they have any more torque, but they have a lower max rpm. 15 to 20K, depending on the model, vs 35k for typical Dremel. I have a couple of Dremel tools, too, and they work great for what I need in a hand-held tool. The proxxon are more handy/universal when it comes to mounts. They have a steel collar of the same diameter on all their rotary tool models, and you can buy tool holders for them (or easily make your own) if you want to build a router table. (The mini router tables for sale are pretty limited).  The Dremels are more of a hack together a mount by eyeball and strap it in with hose clamps. I don't know they have a universal shape for a standard mount, yet, but I haven't been in that market for a decade.

I use a Proxxon in a router table fairly frequently. I have worn out the motor on one of them. This setup is still good enough I haven't upgraded to a full size router table, yet. I just bought another Proxxon. Just made some HDPE bushings, this afternoon, to fit a 1000 foot reel of wrap wire to my dispenser.  My supplier changed spools on me. :)

I adapted a $30.00 Harbor Freight drill press table into a Proxxon router table. It is a fairly easy project if you have a drill press and a power saw. It took mainly some scraps of plywood and some assorted hardware, plus a 2x4 to make the legs. With this baby router table, I can make a surprising array of complex plastic and wood parts to fairly tight tolerances. Check out Matthias Wandel's web page and look at his router table build. It is very easy. My table is roughly based on this, minus the wood-gear lift system and with the addition of a tilt mechanism which I added mainly for V-scoring FR-4.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 02:02:31 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Wimberleytech

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2018, 02:32:16 pm »
Are there any recommendations for dremel/rotatory tools and stands to make life easier for making enclosures?

99% likely to be small ABS / plastic enclosures.  I was thinking a dremel was something you bought for the local hardware shop for £80 that came with virtually nothing, but a quick search on ebay suggests I can get a rotary tool with a pilar stand and router bits for under £100!

The choice is a bit wide though and I'm sure some of the compatibles are rubbish, so I thought I would ask.

Dremel is a great tool.  I have several.  Cheap knock-offs are pretty much crap (I have one).

BUT...WHAT HAS REVOLUTIONIZED ENCLOSURES FOR ME?
3D PRINTER!!

Yeah, I still use my Dremel to tweak this and that, but the 3D has allowed me to do projects I never would have attempted.
 
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Offline Teledog

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2018, 05:04:35 pm »
I have a hand Dremel & a couple knock-offs (great for sanding your calloused feet, BTW)
Bought one of these on a US road trip;
https://www.harborfreight.com/flexible-shaft-grinder-and-carver-40432.html
There are "jewelers versions" at 4-6X the price
I really like the fact that it's foot pedal- speed controlled, and it works very well for grinding out soft plastic, and thin aluminum/metals & WHY
Adjustable chuck (you need multiple collets for a dremel/knockoff)
Try to scoop some used dental bits from your dentist!  ;)
 

Offline VEGETA

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2018, 05:39:46 pm »
I have got this one from China:

https://www.banggood.com/220V-72W-Micro-Electric-Hand-Drill-Adjustable-Variable-Speed-Electric-Drill-p-1110910.html

didn't test it yet but it seems nice, came in a good box with many bits and accessories. I also got these too:

https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Diamond-Saw-Discs-Wheel-Blade-Rotary-Tool-Set-For-Dremel-p-936102.html

total cost is around 30$ + 4$ = 34$= ~35$. IMO, this is good enough and there are other choices from banggood too.

regards
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2018, 05:45:44 pm »
One more vote for Proxxon. The one I have is reliable tool (German quality!) that seems to be well engineered as it doesn't generate much vibrations even at high speed.
I'd suggest to search for a good offer in some German webshop (or big reseller like amazon.de)
 

Offline paulca

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2018, 07:10:32 pm »
Yea, it was the routing bits and a stand that peaked my interest again in a Dremel.

A 3D printer is on my radar too.  It seems a cheap clone of the defacto printer is around £180.  However a few hours on YouTube suggests they can be a bit unreliable and the £180 quickly turns into £280 after replacing some of the parts with genuine ones.  A fully genuine 3D printer (the model name escapes me this morning) is around £500.

Those diamond cutting discs seem like a nice option, if I can get them small enough.

Also makes me realise I should really get myself a desk vice.
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Offline BU508A

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2018, 07:43:23 pm »
+1 for Proxxon.
I am using several tools from them and I like their quality and precision. Imho much better than Dremel.

They have also a lot (really, a lot!) accessories for their handheld tools.

Here is a link to their website:
https://www.proxxon.com/en/
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Offline picandmix

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2018, 08:29:00 pm »
You say small plastic enclosures, but what quantity are you talking about, the odd project box or small batch production ?

As said, don't think there is a realistic alternative to a Bench Pillar Drill for the outline and a set of flat files to finish the edges, plus a bit of time and patience.

You can pick up a basic one from the usual places for around £60, Argos, Toolstation , Screwfix  seem to sell the same thing with a different paint job, they might be cheap but they seem to last for years, mine has.

Also very handy for drilling pcb holes etc , if needed you can but these chuck adapters for really small bits.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Jaw-Keyless-Drill-Chuck-6mm-1-4-Hex-Shank-Holds-Micro-Drills-0-3-6-5mm-BI147/162894624122?epid=20016090162&hash=item25ed46b57a:g:t1cAAOSwuIRanjz~
 

Offline cowasaki

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« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 09:11:05 pm by cowasaki »
 

Offline capt bullshot

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2018, 09:55:01 pm »
As some others here also did, I'd vote against a Dremel or similar for working on small plastic enclosures. You'll get better results by using a proper bench drill,  or a cordless screwdriver with drill bits, a jigsaw (fret saw) and a small file.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 09:56:35 pm by capt bullshot »
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2018, 01:40:09 am »
Another vote against the Dremel or similar. In my mind, these are tools for free-hand engraving (if that's your thing) and for general botch jobs. ::)

As Bud mentioned above, the high speed and low torque is not what you want for drilling and miling -- even less so with plastics, which will melt unless you water-cool. And besides, while the better brands (Dremel, Proxxon) should have decent bearings for the drill shaft, those bearings are not designed to withstand the lateral forces during milling!
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2018, 01:52:38 am »
When i was a poor student i used nylon string and my hands to make long/rectangular cuts in plastic, followed by finishing with a file. A tecnique largely forgotten by now.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2018, 03:47:00 am »
My friend has a 3D printer and honestly I have not been all that impressed. He spent a huge amount of time getting it dialed in and still it's mostly only useful for printing trinkets and toys for his kid. The sort of enclosures it could print are not going to match the quality of the cheapest molded boxes from China although it does allow for some interesting custom designs. Hopefully development continues and the printers keep getting better.
 

Offline Wimberleytech

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2018, 04:09:10 am »
My friend has a 3D printer and honestly I have not been all that impressed. He spent a huge amount of time getting it dialed in and still it's mostly only useful for printing trinkets and toys for his kid. The sort of enclosures it could print are not going to match the quality of the cheapest molded boxes from China although it does allow for some interesting custom designs. Hopefully development continues and the printers keep getting better.

I beg to differ.  Here is one of MANY examples of enclosures I have printed.
 

Offline Wimberleytech

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2018, 04:11:52 am »
My friend has a 3D printer and honestly I have not been all that impressed. He spent a huge amount of time getting it dialed in and still it's mostly only useful for printing trinkets and toys for his kid. The sort of enclosures it could print are not going to match the quality of the cheapest molded boxes from China although it does allow for some interesting custom designs. Hopefully development continues and the printers keep getting better.

I beg to differ.  Here is one of MANY examples of enclosures I have printed.

And here is another
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2018, 04:13:52 am »
^^ which I think proves james_s's point exactly: those 3D printed enclosures are good in that they are tailored to the application, they look crusty as hell. It is relatively easy to make something reasonably presentable (in the sense of something you could sell to a client) from an off-the-shelf enclosure; consumer 3D printed enclosures are unpresentable without massive hand rework (filling, sanding, painting, …).
 

Offline Wimberleytech

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2018, 04:27:57 am »
^^ which I think proves james_s's point exactly: those 3D printed enclosures are good in that they are tailored to the application, they look crusty as hell. It is relatively easy to make something reasonably presentable (in the sense of something you could sell to a client) from an off-the-shelf enclosure; consumer 3D printed enclosures are unpresentable without massive hand rework (filling, sanding, painting, …).

Whatever.  Use your dremel.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2018, 06:36:51 am »
Quote
As Bud mentioned above, the high speed and low torque is not what you want for drilling and miling -- even less so with plastics, which will melt unless you water-cool. And besides, while the better brands (Dremel, Proxxon) should have decent bearings for the drill shaft, those bearings are not designed to withstand the lateral forces during milling!

For drilling, yeh. For milling? A small rotary tool will work great for milling plastic. Well, I can at least vouche for a Proxxon. The thing with drilling is the entire bit will touch the plastic. When milling, you can set your depth of cut. Plexiglass is one of the more difficult plastics to work with for the melting, and even that is eminently machinable with a Proxxon tool (and a rigid setup with fence). It's just a matter of using the right bit and adjusting the depth of cut and feed rate. ABS is very machinable. HDPE and Delrin are a dream.  I have never had to reduce rpm when milling plastic.

One of my contractors had hundreds of ABS enclosures custom machined with cutouts, and ~1 inch hole was too small by about 10 mils radius. They needed them ASAP. I experimented with pillar drill and forstner bits to enlarge the holes. Freehanding with Proxxon router table worked faster and cleaner, leaving crispy edges and leaving a "perfectly" round hole (to the naked eye). I used a small carbide end mill and cut 4 small half moons in the circumference at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock for reference. Then I made light passes around the circumference until these notches disappeared. Forstner bit or holes saw that size couldn't cut cleanly at any speed on my drill press, and the best finish step would have been the router table. It was easier to just do the entire thing on the router table.

I have indeed tried milling things with my drill press. Even at the highest speed, it is not fast enough do much milling. But maybe I don't have the right bits for that. In general, I would probably say a pillar drill is a more useful tool for drilling holes. A rotary tool in a router table is way more useful for me for milling slots and holes and recesses and radially shaping sheet metal, FR-4, and plastic up to 3/4" thick.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 07:27:59 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2018, 07:22:23 am »
Hi, i was a Proxxon fanboy until i burned out my dear IBS/E..
Yes, it's well built with metal parts and very precise collets; flexy shaft works like a charm..it's really quiet and vibration free compared to  any Dremel tools..but..
It has no overload and over temperature protection..
Mine died after 10 min of "abusing" ...Electronics and motor totally burned to death !!!!
NOT to buy for "slightly" heavy jobs :(

PS: i've repaired it by myself, 25€ motor and few cents Triac and diodes ;)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 07:31:02 am by Emi »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2018, 07:29:44 am »
^ Where did you buy the motor?

I wore out the motor on my mains Proxxon after several years of hard use. The rest of the tool is in pristine condition, and I think the TRIAC is fine, even. The motor would sometimes run if you gave it a twist while turning it on. I think it's the same model number... The regular mains one, not the heavy duty one with the metal housing?

I didn't skip a beat. Replaced mine and am just a hair more patient and quick to readjust my cut if it feels like too much resistance or if it sounds off (I think what I did to the poor proxxon is set the tool too high in the table so the chuck was rubbing on the insert plate for an extended period). I went with the 15VAC transformer powered model this time around, since the tools are cheaper to replace (assuming the transformer lasts forever).

« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 07:38:23 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2018, 07:38:11 am »
Luckly i've a toy/model/bricolage shop nearby which sells Proxxon tool and spare parts..
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2018, 07:40:34 am »
^ Ok. I think when I looked into buying from Proxxon, it was very expensive. Anyhow, what did you find for the heavy jobs? Air powered die grinder? 1 HP trim/laminate router? Proper mill spindle? :) :)
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2018, 07:50:06 am »
Kress Fme 1050 with a set of collets... a bit an overkill but i'm sure it will not burn !  ;D   ( not too handy in fact..)

« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 01:35:34 am by Emi »
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2018, 08:47:44 am »
^ Where did you buy the motor?

I wore out the motor on my mains Proxxon after several years of hard use. The rest of the tool is in pristine condition, and I think the TRIAC is fine, even. The motor would sometimes run if you gave it a twist while turning it on. I think it's the same model number... The regular mains one, not the heavy duty one with the metal housing?



Proxxon uses very simple regulators in their hand tools... triac drives a 1n4007 bridge..no protection, no filters  ..really poor design!  The dc motor will immediatly burn if one of this rectifiers shorts..

(but in your case could be simply worned motor brushes )
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 08:49:47 am by Emi »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2018, 08:50:59 am »
Quote
Kress Fme 1050 with a set of collets
Me likey. I've had a quick peek, and it looks like all the high end ones are 220V, only. But the KME 500 is on my radar, now.

It wasn't the brushes. It was.. uhh. The contactors, I think they're called? The contacts on the outside of the spinning part of the motor were all jacked. It would turn by finger power with some terrible roughness in correct direction. And it would catch and seize solid the other direction. There was plenty of brush left (and I even tried rounding the edges of the brushes, but the problem appeared to be the contactors). Considering the way I pushed it for so long, I wasn't terribly disappointed by the failure. Let's say I got my money's worth out of the original, and ditto the replacement.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 09:08:47 am by KL27x »
 

Offline SirAlucard

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2018, 08:51:04 am »
I don't know what's around you, but personally I've been looking at this Dremel Rotary Workbench. They have it available at Lowes.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2018, 11:45:53 am »
How bad can some of the knockoffs be for occasional user/hobbyist/EE to grind, drill and cut?   :-//

Some of them have similar specs, speeds and take the same attachments (or close enough)

They are CHEAP, well built and offer a replacement warranty


Bunnings 'Ozito' brand comes to mind, buy it local, IN STOCK!  :o   return, refund or exchange if unhappy or faulty,

and some good advice from the staff   (if their brains aren't being drained by cheapskate wannabee DIYer queue jump trash, lacking in manners and fair go)


Hmmm, I might pop over to Bunnings asap and check some Rotary thingies out, I sorta need one sometimes for small fixit mods 

None of this suss online 'OneHungLow' click crap and waiting for me, thank you very much    ;D
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2018, 12:24:28 pm »
Tip. The speed control on mine (Canadian brand "Mastercraft") looses most torque below 50% so as usual, Mr Variac saves the day. YMMV..
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2018, 02:24:39 pm »
Hoarder Amnesia Alert:   :palm:

I have one of those 'knockoff' Ozito Rotary Tools new in the box purchased 5 or 6 years ago during post Christmas/Happy Spending Holidays sales,
put away for the next -new tool day 'n play- and forgotten 
What I was going to use it for, got forgotten too.
Does this happen to anyone else ?   :-//


Anyways, just unboxed it and gave it a quick go, this is a killa tool that goes from snail to 30k rpm with variable speed, runs cool and won't bog down easily under load.  :clap:

It lacks any serious freebie/starter cut-off wheel attachments which I will soon hunt down (or 'invent'  >:D )
but hoping all these attachments are a standard shaft arrangement to save me the R+D hassle 

I'll check out the Dremel tool too now that I have a reference/starting point of expectation, and see what the hoorah is about,
whether it's worthy to draw out the credit card as a second tool addition to save time and bother on attachment changes,
or just awesome marketing and product flooding,
and better off going another decent quality knockoff instead, and blow saved money on attachments and spares



---------------------------------

Tip. The speed control on mine (Canadian brand "Mastercraft") looses most torque below 50% so as usual, Mr Variac saves the day. YMMV..

No magic smoke vapor trails or carbon brush sizzling when cranking it up or down with Mr. Variac ?


« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 02:30:17 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline 6PTsocket

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2018, 04:20:10 pm »
Dremmel now offers a 12 volt lithium tool that is a lot heftier than  previous models. It is the 2000 or 2200 depending on the accessory package Another company rhat has entered the market is Milwaukee, thay offer a similar 12 volt tool.

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Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2018, 12:55:50 am »
If Dremel tools are quite good to be considered as Proxxon alternatives (and so many chinese ones ) this can not be said for their plastic column supports  :palm:
Proxxon products like bfb 2000 with optional kt150 xy table are totally another world ...All metal,dovetails,extremely precise and no flexy stuff!
you can get Proxy in Germany  at Voelkner.de  8)

lowest price in EU imho

https://www.voelkner.de/search/search.html?seoPath=%2Fproxxon%2Fq&sortPrice=desc&followSearch=9996&ignoreForCache=client_ip&client_ip=188.228.201.161&disableSqm=true
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 01:42:23 am by Emi »
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2018, 01:21:12 am »
..
Tip. The speed control on mine (Canadian brand "Mastercraft") looses most torque below 50% so as usual, Mr Variac saves the day. YMMV..
No magic smoke vapor trails or carbon brush sizzling when cranking it up or down with Mr. Variac ?
No smoke or sizzle, I suspect between a low quality thumb-pot and built-in triac thinning-out the wave-form, the variac just does a better job at providing 40-50v for most light-duty operation. I never need more than 80v (otherwise poor bearings make it too nerve-wracking to use).
 

Offline Nlombardo

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2018, 06:40:38 am »
If your enclosure is still in pieces (not already assembled into a box shape) you can use a scroll saw to make very clean cuts in plastic, wood, and metal as long as they arent too thick. Just start your hole with a drill first. They can be found very cheaply used, and new ones arent very expensive either. Just make sure you use a saw blade designed for the material you want to cut.


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Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2018, 08:32:43 am »
Quote
I never need more than 80v (otherwise poor bearings make it too nerve-wracking to use).

This is part of what I like about the proxxon rotary tools. My mains Dremel has way more raw power. But if you aren't done in 20 seconds, your hand will go numb. I don't think the problem with (my) Dremels are crummy bearings or ill-fitting housing. I think the vibrations are mostly because the motors are not balanced well enough for the speeds at stake. I have poked around inside and shored things up. But there's nothing much to improve. If it was a bad bearing, you could go over to McMaster-Carr and replace it with something better. The runout is a whole other issue which can add to the vibrations, but my Dremels are hand-numbing even without a bit in place. Aside from the discomfort, this also makes it a bit dicey to use small carbide bits on hard materials, freehand. The Proxxon tool might have less power, but in many cases the tortoise will cross the line first. Quiet and comfortable goes a long way towards getting things done. I haven't tried ALL of the Dremel models, but the 3 or 4 I have owned are all buzzy. I have used 2 out of 3 of the Proxxon models (there are really only 3, but they come in different accessory packages), and they are both super smooth and quiet. I also like that there are only 3 and all have the same mounting point, rather than coming out with a new flavor every 4 years with different mounting hardpoints (or complete lack of anything sensible) on every model.

I am not a brand whore. I love Harbor Freight. And I laugh at some of Proxxon's other tools (way under torqued giant disc sander for big $$$ ?) Their rotary tools are very well made and potentially worth the money in this particular niche. I fear they maybe spend a little too much time and money on the housings, even. Way overbuilt with high grade plastics, which appear to be deburred to perfection by hand. There's a little too much "art" in there for my dollars. It's perfect. And perfection costs money. But the price is still good (in the US market, at least).


« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 09:38:07 am by KL27x »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2018, 09:01:08 am »
Hi, i was a Proxxon fanboy until i burned out my dear IBS/E..
Yes, it's well built with metal parts and very precise collets; flexy shaft works like a charm..it's really quiet and vibration free compared to  any Dremel tools..but..
It has no overload and over temperature protection..
Mine died after 10 min of "abusing" ...Electronics and motor totally burned to death !!!!
NOT to buy for "slightly" heavy jobs :(

PS: i've repaired it by myself, 25€ motor and few cents Triac and diodes ;)
I'm not sure I'd consider failure under abuse to be a flaw; I mean, what were you doing with the thing?!?

I have heard of people damaging the bearings or bushings or something when attempting to use a Proxxon rotary tool as a serious milling motor, but that's it.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2018, 09:11:50 am »
^I think he mentioned a lack of thermal protection/cut-off as an issue. Certainly, these tools do not have the balls to do heavy grinding. If you need more power, don't bother.

As for the external ball bearing, you can buy the exact bearing in the Proxxon rotary tools from McMaster-Carr. They are about 7 or 8 dollars for 1, IIRC. Lucky you, if this is the part that fails. But IMO, it is unlikely that this is the part that will wear out first, under abuse. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but it seems to me this bearing reduces friction and heat (to protect the housing from melting) under sideload, and is not actually all that vital. I mean, if it were worn, the thing would still work ok-ish, not be totally borked. It would increase the drag and reduce the power applied to the work piece, particularly under sideload. But it wouldn't do anything all that drastic.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 11:28:02 am by KL27x »
 

Offline paulca

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2018, 09:18:52 am »
I did own a Dremel once.  I hardly used it.  Lent it to my brother.  It seemed he didn't understand low torque high rpm, complained it was rubbish and just keep slowing down and stopping, then stopped working at all.

I got it back to do some work.  Friction clutch completely burnt out.  Priced a replacement, it wasn't much more expensive to replace the whole unit and they only sold the whole shaft and motor assembly.

I gather if I'd tried harder, or maybe today I could find a replacement cheaper.  I tried to jam it with various things, like cardboard or foam, but it just ate them and starting spinning with actually zero torque, wouldn't cut a paper bag.
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2018, 09:55:00 am »
Side note: The 15V* Proxxon will happily run off DC, as well. You could easily run it off any suitable PSU or power source. I have removed and discarded the entire back half of one of these tools, all the electronics and even the housing (fortuitously, the housing is molded in separate pieces, leaving just the right amount of housing to hold onto), and strapped on a 4S LiPo RC battery in its place. I didn't add any speed control, just a slide switch for always on and a tac switch and a FET to switch it on/off by temp press. I also sometimes run it with bench PSU at a lower voltage when drilling pcb's.  I actually never purchased the external transformer until years later, when I changed my router table over to this model. And I still haven't ever run the router-Proxxon at lower than max rpm for anything, so maybe I shouldn't have bothered, lol. In fact, thinking about it, my battery powered version probably has more torque, what with the 45C rating on the 2Mah battery.

*Well, whoops. I was just stunned at noticing "12V" on the transformer. I have overvolted this tool many a time. I'm pretty sure I have run it at around 15V under load from my lab PSU. Not to mention the no load voltage of maybe 16V that the battery gives. (The motor and mechanicals can take it, anyhow. Not sure of the electronics). It has been so many years since I knew the proper voltage, I readjusted the rating of the tool to my own standard. :)


Quote
(but in your case could be simply worned motor brushes )
I actually still have it lying around in case I could source a new motor. So I may have misremembered some things, because I definitely didn't take the motor to pieces, before, although there are signs I tried. But I must have made some assumptions based on looking through the slots and seeing the tips of the brushes and whatnot. So I just now dremelled the motor apart, and the brushes were still huge (although I couldn't have known that, before, lol) and the contactors look ok. But there's a roughness somewhere closer to the tip of the motor spindle. Rough enough that the motor could only start up, sometimes. And eventually not at all. Internal bushing/bearing inside the motor? Can't quite get it apart that far. Maybe just years of FR-4 dust finding their way in.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 11:32:13 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2018, 12:34:49 pm »
Found a boxed set of Dremel brand 'EZLock Cutting Kit' assorted 'grinder style' cutting wheels for metal and plastic with the tool-less no brainer adapter for $29 at the local Bunnings hardware mart,
loads cheaper than buying the bits individually.  :phew:
They seem like good quality, and a once off buy, 10 discs should last me a long time

Always wanted a mini me grinder for odd jobs.. and keep my 9" 230mm angle grinder from getting lonely LOL


FWIW gents, these rotary tools must be a PITA to use having to mess with the recessed on/off rocker switch all the time   |O

I have a momentary 240v rated 10A foot switch for such occasions, and let me tell you it's hand tool and mini tool heaven  :clap:

with less chance for oopsies and accidents, instant 'time out' for pause and evaluation, 

the tool will last a lot longer and get it's chance to cool down between micro demolition chores as most motors should,

and your ears get a break too  ;D
 

Offline SirAlucard

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2018, 05:43:02 pm »
Found a boxed set of Dremel brand 'EZLock Cutting Kit' assorted 'grinder style' cutting wheels for metal and plastic with the tool-less no brainer adapter for $29 at the local Bunnings hardware mart,
loads cheaper than buying the bits individually.  :phew:
They seem like good quality, and a once off buy, 10 discs should last me a long time

I've actually got the same kit you're talking about. Its quite nice, and the little case it comes with holds any extras nicely too. I haven't really used it much as of yet, but it's there if needed. :)
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2018, 06:26:08 pm »

^I think he mentioned a lack of thermal protection/cut-off as an issue. Certainly, these tools do not have the balls to do heavy grinding. If you need more power, don't bother.


oh,yes, i was working on 2 strokes engine modding ;
milling slots in cast iron cylinders and brushing/polishing exaust pipes when the magic smoke began...
I used flexy shaft and flapwheels for that job but i noticed too late it was in overload  :'(


 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2018, 06:35:52 pm »

*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
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Online beanflying

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2018, 06:56:15 pm »
As someone who has used Dremels for well over 20 years they are great BUT !!!

Plastics melt and in particular Chineseum ones instead of cutting clean and yes I do have an extensive range of milling and abrasive bits of all sorts. This is not to say don't buy one they are invaluable but as the OP wanted to know about plastic enclosures seems everyone has forgotten about the humble nibbler.

Yesterdays job on Steel with little to no burr and no melt back on the powder coat. Equally well at home on plastic up to a couple of mm thick too. Once again not a perfect item for all situations but everyone should have one.


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Offline ikrase

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2018, 07:23:01 pm »
I was just wondering when somebody was finally going to mention the Nibbler.

I have an Adel nibbler. It can be inserted through a roughly half-inch hole (or a smaller hole filed into a square shape) and using only hand-power, you can kachunk kachunk kachunk your way into a square or other shape hole. I found it vastly easier to get a uniform shaped hole than with any kind of freehand rotary tool plus it is cheap, quiet, and does not produce noxious dust.


 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2018, 07:25:08 pm »
Definitely in two words..Proxxon  are smooth, quiet and precise hobbistic tools; not very poweful but ideal for "silent"domestic use..
But it depends on how much spindle concentricity is required..
Dremel and other brands are perfect ( and cheaper..) in all other situations  :-+

PS: usually insert bits quality is much important than motor itself..
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2018, 08:41:36 pm »
I have the exact Nibbler in the photo above, it was top dog back in the day for those irritating cutting jobs that needed gear one could not afford or never knew existed (or what offbeat name it had)

I reckon there's not much you can't do with a Nibbler and a rotary tool together on a metal, plastic or PCB hack fest   >:D

Good rotary bits on a knockoff tool works a lot better (and safer) than knockoff bits, but you still have to take it easy and not go too 'industrial' with a knockoff Rotary tool 

or full size handheld grinders and drills for that matter

and watch those speed limits the tool manufacturer recommends for the bit/disc and material being worked on

i.e. read the list and keep it with the tool always, along with the eyewear...  :scared:


« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 08:44:23 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2018, 11:57:40 pm »
Definitely in two words..Proxxon  are smooth, quiet and precise hobbistic tools; not very poweful but ideal for "silent"domestic use..
That’s 17 words, not two!  >:D

But it depends on how much spindle concentricity is required..
Dremel and other brands are perfect ( and cheaper..) in all other situations  :-+
When using tungsten carbide drill bits for PCB drilling, high spindle concentricity (low run-out) is critical, because tungsten carbide is so brittle. If you’ve got 0.1mm wobble on a 0.7mm drill bit, that’ll snap tungsten carbide. Proxxon does much better at this, both with the spindle design, but also in the attachment between machine and drill stand, and the stability of the drill stand itself.

I don’t think you have any authority to declare that Dremel is better in ALL otherr situations.

Nor is Dremel necessarily cheaper. Here in Switzerland, Dremel is often more expensive than Proxxon.


PS: usually insert bits quality is much important than motor itself..
Well, both are important!

I read a while ago somewhere that while the Proxxon machines are better, the Dremel bits are superior. So indeed, I got a nice Dremel-brand bit assortment to use with my Proxxon, and it’s a great combination. (The only downside is having to switch between the 2.4mm collet for the Proxxon bits and the 3.2mm one for Dremel bits!)
 

Offline Emi

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2018, 12:53:17 am »
Ok...i simply said that Dremel is more heavy duty, noisy and powerful but less accurate than Proxxon  ..Products with slightly different targets..
I agree about bits ;)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 12:57:22 am by Emi »
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2018, 01:07:53 am »
I have both a Dremel and a no name.

Dremel was about 5 times more expensive and less centered (the bit wobbles more on Dremel) than on the no name one. Consumable branded 'Dremel' are even more expensive, like 10 times or more. Obviously, Dremel branded consumables won't last you 10 times longer.

In the long term, I ended up using the no name tool all the time, while the Dremel 400i Digital is gathering dust in brand new condition. The no name still works just fine. I have it for more 10 years now, but used it only occasionally. Maybe I was lucky with an exceptionally good no-name tool, or maybe I don't use it hard or often enough to see the difference, or maybe there is no such big difference to justify the price, I don't know.

TL;DR
A "Dremel like" rotary tool is nice to have around, and comes in very useful many times.

For my eyes, Dremel tools and adapters looks very "toy-ish", like a wrench key made out of plastic, yet very expensive for no particular reason.

Offline Burczyk

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2018, 04:32:44 pm »
I use a Proxxon IBS/E. It is very quiet and does not wobble at all. The only drawback is it's price. I also have a MB 140/S drill stand for it. It is mostly being used to drill PCBs, but when I sometimes need to cut plastic, it does so without any problems. :-+
all my friends have off switches
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Offline ggchab

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2018, 08:27:33 pm »
I use a Proxxon IBS/E. It is very quiet and does not wobble at all. The only drawback is it's price. I also have a MB 140/S drill stand for it. It is mostly being used to drill PCBs, but when I sometimes need to cut plastic, it does so without any problems. :-+
I have the same model but previous version and it's still working perfectly. I bought it at least 15 years ago.
I am also using the rubber band trick ;)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2018, 09:58:03 am »
I use a Proxxon IBS/E. It is very quiet and does not wobble at all. The only drawback is it's price. I also have a MB 140/S drill stand for it. It is mostly being used to drill PCBs, but when I sometimes need to cut plastic, it does so without any problems. :-+
I have the IBS/E as well. Price wasn't too bad — I think about €70 on Amazon.de. Similar to Dremel.

I have the MB 200 drill stand for mine. Haven't used it much yet though. Does work beautifully for PCB holes, of course!
 

Offline paulca

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2018, 09:16:49 pm »
So my latest enclosure I just used a normal drill and files.  Worked out okay.  Will probably consider a dremel later, but I gather the dremel with routing bits probably won't make things much easier than drill+files.

My holes were too small for a nibbler but I don't have one of those either.

Quick question on drilling while I have experienced folks about.

Sometimes when I start a hole into ABS plastic or drilling out a soldered hole in a PCB the drill catches immediately and out comes a lovely spiral of material and the drill goes through the hole in a mater of seconds.  Other times it seems to just polish the hole and produces dust, takes ages to get the hole drilled.

Is there a trick to getting the bit to catch properly?
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Offline VEGETA

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2018, 02:05:45 am »
As someone who has used Dremels for well over 20 years they are great BUT !!!

Plastics melt and in particular Chineseum ones instead of cutting clean and yes I do have an extensive range of milling and abrasive bits of all sorts. This is not to say don't buy one they are invaluable but as the OP wanted to know about plastic enclosures seems everyone has forgotten about the humble nibbler.

Yesterdays job on Steel with little to no burr and no melt back on the powder coat. Equally well at home on plastic up to a couple of mm thick too. Once again not a perfect item for all situations but everyone should have one.

Can you give a link for a good one on aliexpress or banggood? I hope there are since it is cheaper (no shipping cost) but if not then what is the best one to have. I am in Jordan (the country next to Palestine) so shipping will not be like you.

I have some plastic enclosures as well as altoid-like enclosures, can the nibbler do it? what to use for aluminum?

Quote
TL;DR
A "Dremel like" rotary tool is nice to have around, and comes in very useful many times.

For my eyes, Dremel tools and adapters looks very "toy-ish", like a wrench key made out of plastic, yet very expensive for no particular reason.

I have got these:

https://www.banggood.com/220V-72W-Micro-Electric-Hand-Drill-Adjustable-Variable-Speed-Electric-Drill-p-1110910.html
https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Diamond-Saw-Discs-Wheel-Blade-Rotary-Tool-Set-For-Dremel-p-936102.html
https://www.banggood.com/3Pcs-14-Inch-Hex-Shank-HSS-Titanium-Coated-Step-Drill-Bit-Set-3-124-124-20mm-p-1003275.html

and I think they will be enough for electronics enclosures. What do you think?
 

Offline SirAlucard

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2018, 08:20:36 am »
^ That's really not a bad idea. I've actually got a spare engine from a drill I threw away. Might have to go and make something along these lines. The other thought I had for it's use was a small lathe. However I don't really know how much use for that I'd get.
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2018, 08:38:54 am »
I have got these:

https://www.banggood.com/220V-72W-Micro-Electric-Hand-Drill-Adjustable-Variable-Speed-Electric-Drill-p-1110910.html
https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Diamond-Saw-Discs-Wheel-Blade-Rotary-Tool-Set-For-Dremel-p-936102.html
https://www.banggood.com/3Pcs-14-Inch-Hex-Shank-HSS-Titanium-Coated-Step-Drill-Bit-Set-3-124-124-20mm-p-1003275.html

and I think they will be enough for electronics enclosures. What do you think?

Let's hope they'll cut-it.
:)

All I can talk is from my own limited experience. I am not a mechanic, and I rarely cut ABS, so I can not give you an informed advice. Also, my Dremels are slightly different than your pick: they are 5000-33000/min, 130W for Dremel I 400 Digital, and respectively 8000-30000/min, 140W for the no name one (actually it has a sticker with the name Power Action). Both have the max diameter of 3.2mm, and both have small pin-chucks. Instead, the tool in the link have a bigger key-chuck, 72W and 5000-8500 RPM.

About the step drill bits, yes they are also very useful for general drilling big holes in sheets of various material, but they are very big and heavy. I don't think it's possible to use them at many thousands of RPM. AFAIK, step drill bits are for drilling machines with much lower RPMs, like hundreds of RPM, instead of thousands.

I don't know if diamond discs are good for plastic, they are recommended for cutting hard and abrasive materials, like e.g. ceramics. My favorite cutting discs are the Fiberglass Reinforced Cut Off Wheel 32mm. Those disks can cut through almost anything, including metals. They wear in diameter during time, but they are very cheap, like $10 for a pack of 100pcs.

This is the first link returned when searching for "dremel accessories usage": https://blueroofdesigns.com/2009/07/29/what-are-these-dremel-thingies-for/
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 09:46:32 am by RoGeorge »
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2018, 10:11:28 am »

Can you give a link for a good one on aliexpress or banggood? I hope there are since it is cheaper (no shipping cost) but if not then what is the best one to have. I am in Jordan (the country next to Palestine) so shipping will not be like you.

I have some plastic enclosures as well as altoid-like enclosures, can the nibbler do it? what to use for aluminum?


Use this search on eBay should get you one "NIBBLING TOOL HT204" for some reason no sellers use the term Nibbler and that gets you the powered types generally.


I don't know if diamond discs are good for plastic, they are recommended for cutting hard and abrasive materials, like e.g. ceramics. My favorite cutting discs are the Fiberglass Reinforced Cut Off Wheel 32mm. Those disks can cut through almost anything, including metals. They wear in diameter during time, but they are very cheap, like $10 for a pack of 100pcs.

This is the first link returned when searching for "dremel accessories usage": https://blueroofdesigns.com/2009/07/29/what-are-these-dremel-thingies-for/

Diamond discs will tend to melt plastics. The abrasive wheels are fine with some plastics but tend to melt badly on a lot. Much as it is obvious the thing to avoid with plastics is heat. Also to rough on some with router type bits will chip the face of what you are doing.

Re aluminium nibblers are great. The couple of shots below are of a conversion from a Belden to IEC socket on my old 740B I did recently. The file was mainly to remove any burrs on the edge.
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Offline VEGETA

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2018, 10:30:40 am »
I have got these:

https://www.banggood.com/220V-72W-Micro-Electric-Hand-Drill-Adjustable-Variable-Speed-Electric-Drill-p-1110910.html
https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Diamond-Saw-Discs-Wheel-Blade-Rotary-Tool-Set-For-Dremel-p-936102.html
https://www.banggood.com/3Pcs-14-Inch-Hex-Shank-HSS-Titanium-Coated-Step-Drill-Bit-Set-3-124-124-20mm-p-1003275.html

and I think they will be enough for electronics enclosures. What do you think?

Let's hope they'll cut-it.
:)

All I can talk is from my own limited experience. I am not a mechanic, and I rarely cut ABS, so I can not give you an informed advice. Also, my Dremels are slightly different than your pick: they are 5000-33000/min, 130W for Dremel I 400 Digital, and respectively 8000-30000/min, 140W for the no name one (actually it has a sticker with the name Power Action). Both have the max diameter of 3.2mm, and both have small pin-chucks. Instead, the tool in the link have a bigger key-chuck, 72W and 5000-8500 RPM.

About the step drill bits, yes they are also very useful for general drilling big holes in sheets of various material, but they are very big and heavy. I don't think it's possible to use them at many thousands of RPM. AFAIK, step drill bits are for drilling machines with much lower RPMs, like hundreds of RPM, instead of thousands.

I don't know if diamond discs are good for plastic, they are recommended for cutting hard and abrasive materials, like e.g. ceramics. My favorite cutting discs are the Fiberglass Reinforced Cut Off Wheel 32mm. Those disks can cut through almost anything, including metals. They wear in diameter during time, but they are very cheap, like $10 for a pack of 100pcs.

This is the first link returned when searching for "dremel accessories usage": https://blueroofdesigns.com/2009/07/29/what-are-these-dremel-thingies-for/


I want to drill some holes in the concrete walls to put my shelves for my lab, will these help? I don't know about such topics.
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2018, 10:35:12 am »
I want to drill some holes in the concrete walls to put my shelves for my lab, will these help? I don't know about such topics.
No, you need carbide tipped masonry drill-bits (and preferably a hammer-drill).
Often "tapcon cement screws" (blue colored) are sold with the masonary bits.
 

Offline Cliff Matthews

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2018, 10:42:36 am »
..could be he made an assumption that concrete drilling requires high-speed?  :-//  (maybe an excuse to tell the wife he needs a $200 dremel)
 

Offline SirAlucard

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2018, 10:47:20 am »
Diamond discs will tend to melt plastics. The abrasive wheels are fine with some plastics but tend to melt badly on a lot. Much as it is obvious the thing to avoid with plastics is heat. Also to rough on some with router type bits will chip the face of what you are doing.

If your melting plastic your rpm setting is to high, and your pushing to hard. When it comes to plastics an abrasive set at slow speed and going slowly with it will help a lot. To fast or to much pressure and you'll end up melting it. Like with anything just take your time and you'll be golden, but yea no need for a more expensive diamond disk.
 

Offline Back2Volts

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2018, 01:21:57 pm »
... Freehanding with Proxxon router table worked faster and cleaner...

Do you know the model of that router table?   Or a link ?
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2018, 02:38:32 pm »
I made it after looking at dozens of builds, online. And Matthias Wandel's router table lift is about 1000x better than anything else that I have ever seen. Simple and effective. And it tilts! (The tilt is absolutely wonderful for cutting FR-4. With a normal 3mm endmil tilted 45 degrees, you can score FR-4 with a 90 degree V groove. Eats FR-4 for lunch).

Matthias Wandel's Tilting Router Lift Build
http://woodgears.ca/router_lift/index.html

Essentially, mine is a pretty close (but crude) copy to this, minus the gear lifting mechanism. For a rotary tool, it's easy enough to just lift it yourself, lol. Plywood isn't very sexy, but it is way more rigid than any molded plastic and sheet metal rotary tool router table you can buy off-the-shelf.

It's just bolted to the underside of a Harbor Freight drill press table. Loosen the knob on the back, and you can move the whole tool up/down. Loosen the knobs on the sides and you can tilt the entire tool. I made a pretty mediocre "Instructable," years ago. Basically, I took a few pics while making it, is all, then put them up with a bunch of boring words. It looks like it's still viewable. This was done before I added the legs and the tilt mechanism, which was eezy peezy to add-on after the fact. I link it so you can see the drill press table and the wooden Proxxon tool mount. I paid $30.00 for the table, and it is perfect. Other than those specific things, the top link to Matthias's webpage is what you want to see.

Crummy Pictures of my Proxxon Router Table Build:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Garbage-Can-Dremel-Router-Table/

In a way, perhaps it is better to see the simplified version, first. After you have this working, the tilt mechanism is easier to figure out. You just unscrew the "back plate" from the table and reattach it with just hinges on the front. Then affix two slotted arbors* to the table, right up against either side of the plate. These arbors are the part that must be solidly bolted to the underside of the table; the hinges can be gimpy as heck. Then you attach a length of threaded rod to the back of the "back plate" which extends out either side to slide through the curved slot in the arbors and make some knobs to lock it in place in any position thru the arc.

*Arbor might be the wrong word. I know there's a word for a plate with an arc cut in it for a bolt to slide around in.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 03:34:38 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline VEGETA

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2018, 05:13:08 pm »

I want to drill some holes in the concrete walls to put my shelves for my lab, will these help? I don't know about such topics.

I don't see anything in this thread useful for mounting shelves. I'd suggest a drill with a "hammer" action and a good masonry bit. That's what I use.

I don't have a drill like that and I am in a distant place now, hard to get one. So the only thing I have is the hand drill I linked above with some bits that came with it. I don't know if the bits are for iron or concrete.
 

Offline ikrase

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2018, 05:38:02 pm »
If you don't have access to a hammer drill an ordinary *sturdy* handheld drill will do. You need masonry bits, some cooling water, and to go slowly while using pressure.

https://goo.gl/images/1kSxo2


You also may be able to get star drill to hammer by hand.
 

Offline VEGETA

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2018, 05:43:03 pm »
If you don't have access to a hammer drill an ordinary *sturdy* handheld drill will do. You need masonry bits, some cooling water, and to go slowly while using pressure.

https://goo.gl/images/1kSxo2


You also may be able to get star drill to hammer by hand.

unfortunately I only have the one I linked above. I wonder if it works if I went slow. I need to dig around 12 holes not just one.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2018, 06:41:13 pm »
For PCBs I have one of these.  It looks like it's much bigger than it really is, about 35cm tall (that's 13" for those three countries that refuse to modernize).
It's not the best, with not a lot of torque, but it's very solid, and much better than a dremel and its wobbly stand. 



From a jewelry making supply company called Rio Grande
https://products.riogrande.com/products/330012IN1.jpg

(buy some extra drive belts)
Boffin at play https://snafu.ca/
 

Offline VEGETA

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2018, 07:37:15 pm »
Quote
Beg, borrow or steal the right tools.

I will try to get a proper drill in 2 weeks when I return home.

However, can the hand drill handle the job given the right bits? or is it not possible due to being hand drill and not designed for the job?
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2018, 07:48:10 pm »
Yeah, a hand drill is the most common way to drill holes in concrete. Provided it is something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-HD18-2-Two-Speed-Hammer-Drill/dp/B01AX4AEGM/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1520932384&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=bosch+hammer+drill&psc=1

I have used this to drill 4" deep 1/2" holes in concrete. This thing weighs 6 lbs. There are smaller battery powered drills with hammer feature (which I also have this kind), but it is more for drilling through cinder blocks, at best. For this, these are good. But you can drill holes through cinder block with a regular drill, even.

BTW, I tried to cheap out and bought a Harbor Freight hammer drill that weighed like half of this Bosch drill. If the thing lasted 10 hours, it still wouldn't have made anything more than a scratch. If you can comfortably pick it up and aim/operate it with one hand, it's probably not suitable.

In the US, you can sometimes rent heavy duty tools like these by the day, from home improvement stores.

Are your walls really concrete, or just cinder blocks? Concrete is a very expensive way to build walls. In the US, concrete for residential walls is relatively uncommon outside of high end connected condominiums and apartments, particularly in high rises. Even in earthquake zones, concrete is usually just in the foundation of a house. And here, in some places of California, for instance, they sometimes use high tensile concrete... this is not regular rebar in there, but steel members/cables under high tensile stress. I have heard you should not drill into this stuff. You can cause a lot of property and bodily damage - even death - if you hit the wrong spot.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 08:43:03 pm by KL27x »
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2018, 07:50:07 pm »
Dremel is a high speed low torque tool, not the best tool to work plastic. If you want to make round holes get a drill stand. If you want to make rectangular holes using just a drill or Dremel it is going to be difficult to make nice straight and corner cuts. You are talking now about a entry level milling machine or router and that cost more than a 100 buck.
Plastic can be a bit finicky regardless. Depending on the specific plastic type, as the category plastic covers a very wide range of materials with wildly varying properties.
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2018, 09:59:18 pm »
Quote
Beg, borrow or steal the right tools.

I will try to get a proper drill in 2 weeks when I return home.

However, can the hand drill handle the job given the right bits? or is it not possible due to being hand drill and not designed for the job?


Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2018, 05:12:49 am »
^That Dewalt hammer drill is perfect example of borderline too light for concrete. And you can't make up for it by pressing harder.

SDS drills are supposed to be more efficient due to less reciprocating mass, not having to move the entire chuck. But OTOH, I have never seen a very small lightweight SDS hammer drill. I think there's maybe a minimum size for the SDS mechanism. OTOH, I have a super small hammer drill with a super lightweight chuck. I think the reality is SDS is a more robust mechanism that is only used in the larger hammer drills, anyway. I.e., when you go bigger/spendier, you are eventually in SDS territory.

FYI, cinder blocks are technically made of concrete, but at least in the US, they are made with a different mix than typical concrete. Cinder block is not as dense. It is much easier to drill than typical poured concrete.

We have hammer drills for brick and cinder blocks and sandstone and a whole range of other things. Don't by surprised if you buy any old hammer drill and find it won't work on concrete.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 05:34:41 am by KL27x »
 

Offline MyHeadHz

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2018, 05:27:15 am »
Actually, with the Dremel, I do like their miniature cutting disc.  Carefully, I have cut and sanded openings on cheap Chinese project boxes using it without melting the plastic on the slowest speed.

With a good set, you also get milling/burrs bits which also carve away the plastic without making crap edges or melting.  But, they are harder to control than drill bits.  You need a sturdy stand for the drill to do any good with them.  Which kinda leaves you back to my above drill press, with a good dremel bit kit.

https://www.amazon.com/10pcs-Milling-Rotary-Carving-Dremel/dp/B01H72VWYG/ref=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&qid=1520464534&sr=8-21&keywords=dremel+bit+set
https://www.amazon.com/Yosoo-Tungsten-Carbide-Dremel-Rotary/dp/B00CYA6I46/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1520464273&sr=8-8&keywords=dremel+bit+set


https://www.amazon.com/Lukcase-Diamond-Cutting-Cut-off-Blades/dp/B01LWYXPJZ/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1520464273&sr=8-12-spons&keywords=dremel+bit+set&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/WORKPRO-276-piece-Accessories-Universal-Polishing/dp/B0109U88KE/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1520464273&sr=8-7&keywords=dremel+bit+set

Yes, but I suggest that if you're going to buy cheap chinese knockoffs, avoid the resellers and just buy them directly.  You save a lot of money that way.  If you are too impatient to wait for the slow boat, which can take over a month, then I guess you can pay the premium. :p

Some of the sources for the products you recommended:

https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Diamond-Saw-Discs-Wheel-Blade-Rotary-Tool-Set-For-Dremel-p-936102.html
https://www.banggood.com/Drillpro-10pcs-HSS-Router-Bits-Burr-For-Dremel-and-Rotary-Engraving-Woodworking-Tool-p-1034598.html

helpful search link: https://www.banggood.com/search/rotary.html

Always buy the genuine tool (Dremel), then you can save on cheap accessories.

I've had my Dremel for about 15-20 years and it still works like a champ.  I haven't really used any other ones, so I don't have an opinion on those, but you can't go wrong with Dremel.  Personally, I strongly prefer the infinitely-variable versions over the ones with preset speeds.

However, I don't recommend using drill press/router stands and similar devices.  Dremels are for freehand work, despite what the marketing department would like you to think.  You wouldn't use a drill press as a milling machine, and you shouldn't try to use a Dremel as a drill press.  They are very different tools for very different purposes.

It is very easy to melt plastic and clog bits if you try to cut/grind it with a Dremel, depending on the type of plastic.  Plastic also gives off some nasty chemicals and particulates.  I recommend good ventillation and/or a good respirator, especially when dealing with plastic.  Always wear proper eye and ear protection.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 05:58:20 am by MyHeadHz »
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2018, 01:54:03 pm »
We have hammer drills for brick and cinder blocks and sandstone and a whole range of other things. Don't by surprised if you buy any old hammer drill and find it won't work on concrete.

Ain't that the truth. A couple of years ago I put up a wooden shed on my back patio. That patio is a poured slab of concrete that's 60 years old. The shed had to be built on a sill, and the sill had to be anchored to the slab. OK, no problem, I have a ½" hammer drill and appropriate bits, no problem.

Except, problem. Drilling one hole to appropriate depth (4") took half an hour and destroyed the bit. The drill got so hot that the plastic for the hand-hold softened and started to melt. Clearly this wasn't going to work!

A web search turned up the answer: rotary hammer. So off to the store I go, and $200 later I had a new Bosch rotary hammer and two bits. That thing went through the concrete like a hot knife through butter. Unbelievable. When finished, the bit I used looked like it was new, too.

aside: so the sill is just pressure-treated 2x4s. But the stuff that is used to treat it requires special fasteners, which of course the store that sells the wood doesn't have. McMaster-Carr to the rescue. (They were cheaper than the big box store, too.)
 

Offline 6PTsocket

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2018, 02:18:59 pm »
There are other options. Milwaukee makes a 12 volt rotary tool that does not lack for power. Dremel also makes a 12 volt lithium battery tool. Both look pretty hefty. There is a dissection review of the Milwaukee and the speed control is not a triac but a more elaborate MOSFET circuit.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

Offline Back2Volts

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #83 on: March 15, 2018, 03:43:41 am »
I made it after looking at dozens of builds, online. And Matthias Wandel's router table lift is about 1000x better than anything else that I have ever seen. Simple and effective. And it tilts! (The tilt is absolutely wonderful for cutting FR-4. With a normal 3mm endmil tilted 45 degrees, you can score FR-4 with a 90 degree V groove. Eats FR-4 for lunch).

Matthias Wandel's Tilting Router Lift Build
http://woodgears.ca/router_lift/index.html

Essentially, mine is a pretty close (but crude) copy to this, minus the gear lifting mechanism. For a rotary tool, it's easy enough to just lift it yourself, lol. Plywood isn't very sexy, but it is way more rigid than any molded plastic and sheet metal rotary tool router table you can buy off-the-shelf.

It's just bolted to the underside of a Harbor Freight drill press table. Loosen the knob on the back, and you can move the whole tool up/down. Loosen the knobs on the sides and you can tilt the entire tool. I made a pretty mediocre "Instructable," years ago. Basically, I took a few pics while making it, is all, then put them up with a bunch of boring words. It looks like it's still viewable. This was done before I added the legs and the tilt mechanism, which was eezy peezy to add-on after the fact. I link it so you can see the drill press table and the wooden Proxxon tool mount. I paid $30.00 for the table, and it is perfect. Other than those specific things, the top link to Matthias's webpage is what you want to see.

Crummy Pictures of my Proxxon Router Table Build:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Garbage-Can-Dremel-Router-Table/

In a way, perhaps it is better to see the simplified version, first. After you have this working, the tilt mechanism is easier to figure out. You just unscrew the "back plate" from the table and reattach it with just hinges on the front. Then affix two slotted arbors* to the table, right up against either side of the plate. These arbors are the part that must be solidly bolted to the underside of the table; the hinges can be gimpy as heck. Then you attach a length of threaded rod to the back of the "back plate" which extends out either side to slide through the curved slot in the arbors and make some knobs to lock it in place in any position thru the arc.

*Arbor might be the wrong word. I know there's a word for a plate with an arc cut in it for a bolt to slide around in.

Nice work!   That is the kind of project I would have looked forward thirty years ago, but at this point in my life, I was hoping it was a readily available Proxxon machine. 
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #84 on: March 15, 2018, 05:35:06 am »
Yes, but I suggest that if you're going to buy cheap chinese knockoffs, avoid the resellers and just buy them directly.  You save a lot of money that way.  If you are too impatient to wait for the slow boat, which can take over a month, then I guess you can pay the premium. :p

Some of the sources for the products you recommended:

https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Diamond-Saw-Discs-Wheel-Blade-Rotary-Tool-Set-For-Dremel-p-936102.html
https://www.banggood.com/Drillpro-10pcs-HSS-Router-Bits-Burr-For-Dremel-and-Rotary-Engraving-Woodworking-Tool-p-1034598.html

helpful search link: https://www.banggood.com/search/rotary.html

Always buy the genuine tool (Dremel), then you can save on cheap accessories.
Are those diamond cutting discs any good?

I’m leery of cheap accessories, since I don’t want a shitty dull bit dancing all over the place.

However, I don't recommend using drill press/router stands and similar devices.  Dremels are for freehand work, despite what the marketing department would like you to think.  You wouldn't use a drill press as a milling machine, and you shouldn't try to use a Dremel as a drill press.  They are very different tools for very different purposes.
I really don’t think you can make a broad statement like that. Some materials need low-RPM high0-torque drilling, and others need high-RPM low-torque drilling. Think about where you are: EEVBlog. Electronics. What’s something we drill? PCBs. And they need high-RPM low-torque drilling. (And they need it with tungsten carbide bits, because FR4 will dull steel bits in no time. But carbide is brittle, so handholding those bits risks breaking them. Heck, they even break in Dremel’s shitty wobbly plastic drill stand. No such problems with Proxxon — or even a Dremel in a third-party metal stand.)
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2018, 05:38:37 am »
Quote
That is the kind of project I would have looked forward thirty years ago, but at this point in my life, I was hoping it was a readily available Proxxon machine.

I got a late start. I hardly knew how to pick up a hammer until I was 30. It's not something I was exposed to at home or university. Passion for electronics is what got me sideways into what is now a tiny garage workshop. As I recall, the first power saw (a jigsaw) I ever bought was to build a better etch tank. (After 3 iterations, and as many years, I finally succeeded.) The mini router table was largely an attempt to step up my FR-4 cutting and machining ability.

At first, I was allergic to wood. I was more interested in engineering plastics. Wood seemed so old-fashioned and imprecise. But wood is incredible. Fast and easy and sturdy, once I got over the "analog-ness" and saw that sometimes close is more than good enough. And in some cases, hand-fitting and tuning is a pain, but overall the fastest and sometimes best way to build things. It's a matter of trusting that your eyes and hands, while not as digitally perfect as a CNC, they are pretty darn good. And where I am now, I hope that in 30 years, I will be able to spend all day in the garage workshop. It's a great change of pace from the headache of coding and debugging and using OP's software.  There are some similarities to coding where you sometimes need to make the tool to build the tool to build the jig to make the widget, based on what tools you have and know how to use, to start. But it's all so refreshingly not abstract. :)

Today, a lot of people's first workshop tool might be a 3D printer. A few different choices here and there, and that could have been me. But that's not how it turned out. The 3D printer is one of the last tools I would buy; there are several thousands of dollars of things I feel are more important and useful to have, first. 40 yr-old me looks back at 25-yr-old me and sees a completely useless asshole.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 06:38:43 am by KL27x »
 

Offline mcinque

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2018, 08:32:45 am »
I had a Dremel for a couple of months then I tried Proxxon. It was like reborn. I would never change it. There is not even comparison.
I'm basically still a rookie and because of this, even with the best intentions, I often say bullshit :)
 

Offline MyHeadHz

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #87 on: March 15, 2018, 10:31:03 am »
Yes, but I suggest that if you're going to buy cheap chinese knockoffs, avoid the resellers and just buy them directly.  You save a lot of money that way.  If you are too impatient to wait for the slow boat, which can take over a month, then I guess you can pay the premium. :p

Some of the sources for the products you recommended:

https://www.banggood.com/10pcs-Diamond-Saw-Discs-Wheel-Blade-Rotary-Tool-Set-For-Dremel-p-936102.html
https://www.banggood.com/Drillpro-10pcs-HSS-Router-Bits-Burr-For-Dremel-and-Rotary-Engraving-Woodworking-Tool-p-1034598.html

helpful search link: https://www.banggood.com/search/rotary.html

Always buy the genuine tool (Dremel), then you can save on cheap accessories.
Are those diamond cutting discs any good?

I’m leery of cheap accessories, since I don’t want a shitty dull bit dancing all over the place.

However, I don't recommend using drill press/router stands and similar devices.  Dremels are for freehand work, despite what the marketing department would like you to think.  You wouldn't use a drill press as a milling machine, and you shouldn't try to use a Dremel as a drill press.  They are very different tools for very different purposes.
I really don’t think you can make a broad statement like that. Some materials need low-RPM high0-torque drilling, and others need high-RPM low-torque drilling. Think about where you are: EEVBlog. Electronics. What’s something we drill? PCBs. And they need high-RPM low-torque drilling. (And they need it with tungsten carbide bits, because FR4 will dull steel bits in no time. But carbide is brittle, so handholding those bits risks breaking them. Heck, they even break in Dremel’s shitty wobbly plastic drill stand. No such problems with Proxxon — or even a Dremel in a third-party metal stand.)

I can't vouch for those particular accessories-- they just happened to be the source for links others had posted.  I have tried other cheap chinese knockoff tools without noticing any meaningful differences to performance or durability, though I only really do grinding, cutting, and polishing with it.

Proxxon tools seem to only be 220v, so I never really bothered looking into them since we have 110v here.  From a machinist's perspective, the dremel tools move several thousandths in all directions while moving freehand, which is fine... it's freehand.  When you take those cheap (Dremel) stands it magnifies everything.  Unless your tolerances are super loose, then you're going to have some serious issues.  Tungsten carbide is very fragile, even for proper equipment.  Using that or HSS in such a setup is a complete waste.  The tools will break or chip from getting jammed or misaligned far before the tool could ever dull.  If you're going to do it, just go with some cheapo bits, especially if it is just plastic.  Again, that's just going from the dremel stands I've seen.  Those attachments aren't cheap either- around $45.  For $65 you can get a basic drill press, which is far more versatile in what it can make holes in.  With the proxxon you would be in a similar boat.  Assuming it will do your basic job, it will probably cost as much as a real drill press, so there is no reason not to.  Those little attachments are just marketing wank.  I see a lot of people getting accessories like that to "justify" their original purpose, but there is no need.  Those tools have a purpose and a place, just like drill presses and milling machines.  You're just going to cause a lot more headache and expenses in other ways by trying so hard to make something work outside of its element.

But to each his own.  He can hog the holes out with a spork for all I care, as long as he's happy.   :popcorn:
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #88 on: March 15, 2018, 06:32:40 pm »
Major aggro I find with all the Dremel-type units is the collet chucks just letting go in the middle of a job. A unit with a proper keyed chuck would save a lot of swearing.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #89 on: March 15, 2018, 07:01:51 pm »
Proxxon tools seem to only be 220v, so I never really bothered looking into them since we have 110v here. 

I don't think that is correct; they seem to have a decent selection of 115V tools:
https://proxxon-us-shop.com/
 
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Online beanflying

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2018, 08:17:39 pm »
Major aggro I find with all the Dremel-type units is the collet chucks just letting go in the middle of a job. A unit with a proper keyed chuck would save a lot of swearing.

Ever wonder why Mills use collet chucks and not keyed?

Are those diamond cutting discs any good?

I’m leery of cheap accessories, since I don’t want a shitty dull bit dancing all over the place.

Maybe on glass or ceramic and even then used wet if you want any life out of them. I haven't used them for PCB's and am unlikely to try.


Re Dremel/Proxon both are good but if you are using either with side loads like a Mill then expect issues with keeping straight. The Bits and Connecting Bars will flex for a start before you even get to the tool and it's bearings.
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2018, 09:37:05 pm »
Quote
Major aggro I find with all the Dremel-type units is the collet chucks just letting go in the middle of a job. A unit with a proper keyed chuck would save a lot of swearing.
I have the same issue with my particular Dremels because of the vibration and/or runout, but to be fair, I can't adjust the speed on my mains Dremel; it's 35K, all the time. (And my Li ion Dremel has crazy runout). The main bits I use in my Dremels are 99% cutoff wheels, 1% nondirection carbide bur, non directional cutters, felt polishing wheels, or stone grinding bits. Stuff that doesn't "dig" itself out of the tool. My Dremels are pretty much useless at freehanding with endmills. It's too herky jerky, even if the bit would stay in.

With Proxxon, I use carbide endmils, freehand, all the time. It's probably the most common bit I use in my Proxxons. And despite Proxxon having excellent 3 slot steel collets, I use the adjustable chuck adaptor for everything. Even the Proxxon in my router table wears this adjustable chuck, despite I hardly ever change that bit from 3mm endmill. It makes no difference in performance that I can tell (although it probably isn't great for the life of the tool, considering the extra length and resultant side load). Smoothness and balance fundamentally changes what you can do with a rotary tool. (I'm not suggesting that Dremel doesn't make tools that aren't smooth enough to do this stuff; just that my 2 Dremel do not fall into this category).

Quote
Re Dremel/Proxon both are good but if you are using either with side loads like a Mill then expect issues with keeping straight. The Bits and Connecting Bars will flex for a start before you even get to the tool and it's bearings.
Dunno about Dremel, but I mill plastics, sheet metal, wood, and FR-4 with my Proxxon router table. No problem at all. The main limitation is the torque, not the herkyjerk, broken bit, or magic smoke.

Quote
Dremels are for freehand work ... You wouldn't use a drill press as a milling machine, and you shouldn't try to use a Dremel as a drill press.  They are very different tools for very different purposes.

Exactly. A high speed rotary tool is more like a mill motor than a drill. Milling/routing goes much better when the mill motor is solidly mounted and the material is fed in a controlled manner. Hence, accessories like router tables and drill presses can be useful (if they are well designed and manufactured). There is rare occasion one should actually choose a rotary tool to properly drill things (with a regular fluted drill bit), but drilling is not the only way to make (or to enlarge/shape/finish) "holes," including "holes" that are not round. And since this is EE forum, some of us actually have this rare application where you might want to drill at high RPM. Carbide drill bits will punch super tiny holes in PCBs very rapidly and cleanly, provided the RPM is high(er than a proper drill press). Suggestion to "buy a REAL drill press" is missing your own point. The "real" upgrade to a rotary tool is a die grinder or router or mill motor. And with proper accessories, you can do more. With just a mount, a flat table, and a fence you can mill straight slots, do radial symmetry, edge jointing/plane-ing, follow cuts parallel to an outer reference edge (that could be made with a saw or belt sander), all of this is in addition to more control and cutting speed in free-hand shaping (with the additional benefit of having a fixed perpendicular bit angle, if not adjustable). When you figure out how to take advantage of all this stuff, it means you can make more complex things. And most of this stuff can aid in shaping/cutting/milling thin, flat things like enclosure front/back/top/sides, which is presumably what the OP is about.

In short, yes. 15-35k RPM is, indeed, too fast to drill almost everything. Aside from plastic, this is a disaster for wood or metal or just about anything. But it is in the right ballpark to mill or grind almost anything. But if the tool vibrates and chatters out of control, you will never know. Esp considering the small radius of bits you will use in such a tool, a rotary tool might be too SLOW for a lot of milling operations. I would give the OP benefit of doubt and suppose he is interested in milling openings in an enclosure. If he only wanted to drill standard size round holes, you don't need a press of any kind to do that in 1/8" plastic and sheet metal. A hand drill is fine.   

Fun fact: you can turn the basic Proxxon drill press into a spring loaded arbor press by moving the spring from the top to the bottom. (You would get it if you look at it). This can be useful for milling, if you don't have a router table. Lift, insert the stock, then let it drop into the hole/slot you are wanting to mill. I occasionally use one of mine* to do stuff like this when I want to do it at my main workbench, with the comfy chair and good lighting. This spring loaded arbor configuration is also useful if you ever have to flash a bunch of PCB via ICSP. But if you want to mill anything thick with such a weak tool, you will want a very quick and easy way to adjust the height of the bit. Gotta take shallow cuts. This is where Matthias's router table design and a quickly adjustable fence are key.

*I actually have found enough uses to own two of these Proxxon drill presses. And yeah, you know I have a real drill press, too.






 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 10:06:59 am by KL27x »
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #92 on: March 16, 2018, 03:48:22 am »
Once I bought a big set of accessories for my Proxxon from china (banggood), and I will never do it again. They were absolute rubbish in every aspect, not sure there was a single one that was straight, maybe only the polishing bits were usable. I'm a bit afraid to use the cutting discs from that set.
I should have expected it, since the price was around 10eur, close to what I pay for a single bit from Proxxon (or Dremel)

I'm sure there are more quality ones from alibay, but even this one had positive comments and I'm not sure I'm willing to experiment with further orders from chine, unless I see some of them live in action first. 
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #93 on: March 16, 2018, 06:28:23 am »
Are those diamond cutting discs any good?
They're awesome for finely grinding tools.  For example, they do an excellent job at splitting the point of drill bits.  Just don't run them at high speed against iron containing materials or the diamond dissolves.   And of course they work great on carbide.
However this may not be much use if you aren't grinding your own tools very often.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Dremel / Dremel like device?
« Reply #94 on: March 16, 2018, 09:16:34 am »
Rotary tool  / mini router table worthless for milling plastic? Too fast, they say. Wrong tool.

Just a few examples that could be of particular interest on the forum. All HPDE. ABS mills about the same.

Solder dispenser for magnifying lamp.
<img src="https://i.imgur.com/OEf24co.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" />

Flux syringe holder on the right of my microscope:
<img src="https://i.imgur.com/vyu8xZs.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" />

Tweezer holder on the left:
<img src="https://i.imgur.com/5xMHhpg.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" />

Bushings:
<img src="https://i.imgur.com/AQtQOcn.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" />

And there's this thing: I would like to see this done, freehand. Even a 3D printer will not achieve the surface finish for the raceway/track. FF to the 55 second mark, about the last sixth of the bar. The white plastic ring around the top dish is also milled on my lil router table. It is partly covered by the orange lid. There's a larger diameter shallower step that perfectly fits under the orange part.


I still remember my first "router table" accessory. I heat bent 1/4" plexiglass into a tube shape and cemented that to the underside of a small sheet of plexiglass. The Dremel was stuffed into the tube and then about 30 rubber bands were put over the tube to try to keep the Dremel from slipping around TOO much. No fence or miter slot, just a small flat surface. Of course, this was terrible, from concept to material selection to execution. (As I have said before, 25-yr-old me was fairly useless.) But even this router table was still a gigantic improvement over freehanding, for certain specific things. Making clean and accurate holes/openings in an ABS or styrene plastic enclosure would perhaps qualify.

I used this router table to make a form fitting holder for the same Dremel, out of plexiglass, which is a terrible material for this and is much harder to machine than ABS.
But this worked out and helped make the next iteration not quite as terrible.

If you are stuck with a buzzy rotary tool, you might want to try carbide burrs, the kind with the large "diamond-cut" grooves. They cut down on the chatter and vibration quite a bit compared to endmills and will rough away plastic much faster and safer in a buzzy tool. The 1/4" "high speed cutting bit" that looks like a drum with a bunch of blades around the circumference is good for rounding and smoothing inside arcs, but be sure to avoid cutting anything abrasive with the steel cutting bits like this. In a more balanced tool, step aside as see what an endmill can do.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 11:19:18 am by KL27x »
 


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