Education/licences

[David Aurora]

Seems logical, huh?

I think I'll give them another call this week and see what story I get this time haha

[gregariz]

That means if as an engineer trouble shooting audio equipment and repairs it as part of his normal work then he doesn't require a license.   or maybe my English not so good

The problem as I see is that for an Electrical Power Engineer, residential wiring systems may actually be "their" practice of electrical engineering. My guess is that no-one has tested the Act. ie. sued the board for not allowing them to obtain a contractors license.

[Jimmy]

I think I'll give them another call this week and see what story I get this time haha

Don't ring them unless you are going to post the recording. Just email them and you can ask can I test the work to see if its safe and sign off on it without a license. They should say yes because you don't need a license to test.

electrical safety act

57 Performing electrical work without electrical licence
For section 55(3)(d) of the Act, the following testing is
authorised—
(a) the testing of electrical equipment by a competent
person, if the testing is required under part 5, division 5
or section 126;
(b) the testing of the works of an electricity entity by a
competent person;
Example for paragraph (b)—
a competent person testing protection relay operation that is part
of the works of an electricity entity
(c) the testing of electrical equipment by a person, other
than testing mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b), if the
testing does not interfere with the integrity of the
electrical equipment.
Examples for paragraph (c)—
• a person testing a safety switch in a domestic electrical
installation by operating a test button on the safety switch
• a person using an appropriate voltmeter to measure voltage

.

The problem as I see is that for an Electrical Power Engineer, residential wiring systems may actually be "their" practice of electrical engineering. My guess is that no-one has tested the Act. ie. sued the board for not allowing them to obtain a contractors license.

David should fill out the application but remember you must meet all the requirements first have a degree or be registered as an engineer, Have the correct business qualification and be insured for up to $50000.

In Australia people don't sue the government because if they win the just change the law. 

[EEVblog]

This is what keeps confusing me about this whole caper I'm on haha, every time I think I understand what is legal I hear something to the contrary. Are you saying that an electrical engineer (I assume with a certain level of qualification?) in Queensland, who for example makes a living designing lamps, can legally put a mains cord in a lamp they build and hook it up to a bulb inside (or connect the cord to a transformer for a low voltage bulb, either way)? No need for an electrical mechanic licence? Because this makes sense, and is the way I had assumed things would logically work. But on the phone to the licencing folk, they definitely told me the opposite of this. They said quite clearly that if you don't have an electrical mechanic licence, whether or not you're a qualified EE you aren't touching anything connecting to mains with a 10 foot pole. Although when I asked about the idea of a qualified EE prototyping a design, it was apparently OK in that scenario, but only in that scenario. Which is quite baffling.

I don't get it at all. Did I just speak to someone totally clueless on the phone? Or... hang on... is the difference in working for a company with licences vs. working for yourself? I know that has come up in this conversation, whereas my conversation with them was focussed on self employment.
[/quote]

I was lead to believe that was technically the case. Unless you are a licensed electrician, technically you are not allowed to replace a mains plug on a lamp, or anything mains related on a consumer electrical item, household wiring etc.
But you are allowed to work on prototype professional gear as part of your profession. So you can do mains wiring inside a bit of gear, but you can't touch the plug that goes into the wall or something equally as stupid. The solution was to make all your gear have IEC mains connectors, and not fixed mains cords 
Leo Simpson did quite a few opinion pieces on this, and even a full article, I might have to dig it up...

Dave.

[Jimmy]

Leo dose make some good points

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101979/article.html

The electricians do have a legal obligation to dob in unlicensed or faulty work. If an electrician goes into a house and there is no rcd's on the light and power he has to give the owner a quote to upgrade there wiring to standard. If they decline then you have to notify the eso which will fine you and turn your power off until it is fixed. In practice the owner usually just does the work because you use the word safer.

Here is a simple question do you need to earth a metal tap if it has poly pipe going to it?
Hint (equipotential bondage)

[EEVblog]

Here is the article in SC:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157627683312015/
I'm sure Leo wouldn't mind me copying this one and sharing in this instance.

Dave.

[Jimmy]

So he starts off by saying you can't do it but proceeds to tell you how to do it. I wouldn't write an article like that for fear of prosecution.

Now in QLD all retail outlets must display a NO DIY sign on all products that need to be installed by an electrician.
http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/fair-and-safe-work/electrical-safety/forms-and-publications/outlook/winter-2011/dont-diy-warning-signs

My brother works for a retailer and is always asked how do you do this and he ends up having arguments with the customers because he tells them they are not allowed to do it themselves. I told him not to argue just tell them I don't know I just work here.

Just because you are an electrician doesn't mean you are safe. edit
Just because you have a peace of paper saying you can do something doesn't make it safe.

Fatality of an Electrical Worker on 23 March 2011

Date issued: 13 April 2011

The Electrical Safety Office (ESO) and Workplace Health and Safety Queensland (WHSQ) are investigating a serious electrical incident which occurred in Townsville on Wednesday 23 March 2011, resulting in the death of an electrical worker.

Initial findings indicate that while identifying cables in an open ceiling space the electrical worker picked up a live lighting circuit conductor which had exposed live parts while another part of his body was in contact with an earthed metal ceiling batten. The insulation of the lighting circuit may have been damaged by vermin activity.

The purpose of this alert is to remind workers to be aware of the possibility of damaged cables and exposed live parts particularly when entering ceiling spaces. Where possible the power should be isolated before entering a ceiling space.

A risk assessment must be undertaken before commencing work and appropriate risk treatment measures adopted and monitored.

Stay safe. Turn the power off and test before you touch any electrical equipment you intend working on.

Peter Lamont
Executive Director
Electrical Safety Office

Fatality of Electrical Worker on 13 February 2011

Date issued: 16 February 2011

The Electrical Safety Office (ESO) and Workplace Health and Safety Queensland (WHSQ) are investigating a serious electrical incident which occurred in Loganholme on Saturday 12 February, resulting in the subsequent death of an electrical worker on Sunday 13 February 2011.

Initial findings indicate that while performing electrical work on a lighting circuit the worker came into contact with live parts.

The purpose of this alert is to remind electrical workers of the fundamental safety principles where electrical work is being carried out:

    Don?t work live; identify, isolate and lock out circuits.
    Test before you touch to ensure effective isolation.

Stay safe. Turn the power off and test before you touch any electrical equipment you intend working on.

Peter Lamont
Executive Director
Electrical Safety Office

[EEVblog]

So he starts off by saying you can't do it but proceeds to tell you how to do it. I wouldn't write an article like that for fear of prosecution.

It's fear like that that makes the current situation as stupid as it is.
Who's going to prosecute him?, and for what? Publishing DIY info?
In that case I'd better shut down this forum, the blog, and the whole internet!
Electronics Magazines in oz have been publishing and promoting "potentially dangerous" and (in this instance it seems) technically "possibly illegal" DIY information since the 1930's or something.
Thankfully there are new more sensible liability laws in this country that put the responsibility back into the hands of the individual.

That came about because of the insurance crisis about a decade ago when a spate of stupid liability lawsuits hit the market and the idiots were winning. Like suing the local council because some idiot goes and dives off a cliff head first and ends up in a wheelchair.
I remember, as one example, the whole adventure industry was almost shut down because they couldn't get insurance any more. And likewise bushwalking clubs were going to be shut down as well, lest someone trip over and sue. And I couldn't invite people along on my canyoning trips lest they sue me if they got a scratch. The fear spread like wildfire.
Then the new anti-idiot laws were introduced, that basically say, unless someone does something deliberately and purposely wrong , with intent, that results in injury of someone, the responsibility is on the individual.

Dave.

[Jimmy]

It's fear like that that makes the current situation as stupid as it is.
Who's going to prosecute him?, and for what? Publishing DIY info?
In that case I'd better shut down this forum, the blog, and the whole internet!

I don't see anyone on the blog tell you how to do electrical wiring for power points or lights. I don't take safety lightly that is why when I said I will sign off on the log book I will need to inspect the work in person.

The worst thing that could happen to me is the ESO could take my License off  me which would impact my employment opportunities. Currently I can do any type of electrical work I like Legally.

If someone was to ask me a electrical question and I thought that they would go ahead and do the work anyway I would tell them how to do it safely. I just wouldn't write an electricians handbook for dummies and have it published in a magazine.     

Thankfully there are new more sensible liability laws in this country that put the responsibility back into the hands of the individual.

In a workplace they have changed it so the people up the line eg manager, ceo can have more responsibility that the worker that got injured.

[Uncle Vernon]

I was lead to believe that was technically the case. Unless you are a licensed electrician, technically you are not allowed to replace a mains plug on a lamp, or anything mains related on a consumer electrical item, household wiring etc.
But you are allowed to work on prototype professional gear as part of your profession. So you can do mains wiring inside a bit of gear, but you can't touch the plug that goes into the wall or something equally as stupid. The solution was to make all your gear have IEC mains connectors, and not fixed mains cords 
Leo Simpson did quite a few opinion pieces on this, and even a full article, I might have to dig it up...

Dave.

There is a lot of misinformation and a lot of fog about this. As an engineer or as Joe public you can replace a plug, delve within an appliance etc, legally! You cannot touch fixed wiring! Those are the legalities, however things get a lot murkier very quickly the moment you wish to do such works commercially. There is C & A Tick certification to contend with for any products sold, a self administered system of administrative duck shoving.

The other mistake in this thread is reference to Electrical Contractors License, anyone can apply for one of these, the applicant does not have to be a qualified electrician. The rub is however that to do any electrical work you need to have in your employ a licensed electrical mechanic who does or supervises the work. eg: An air conditioning company can hold a contractors license, but all electrical work must be performed and signed off by licensed electrical tradesmen.

A licensed tradesman must also hold a contractors license if he wishes sell his work directly.
If he does data or other communications cabling he also needs a ACMA cablers ticket
If he works on any form of security system he needs a Security installers licence
etc etc plus the insurances to go with every new task.

So yo soon get the idea why you are paying some monkey $75 - $150 an hour to run speaker cables. Bureaucratic interference at every turn.

[gregariz]

Here is the article in SC:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157627683312015/
I'm sure Leo wouldn't mind me copying this one and sharing in this instance.

Dave.

From what I can tell the major beef of the electrical boards is that techs and engineers are not familiar with the wiring code...

For the benefit of New Zealand readers maybe Leo should include a monthly column on wiring ones home to Australian Standards.

[Jimmy]

For the benefit of New Zealand readers maybe Leo should include a monthly column on wiring ones home to Australian Standards

NZ has the same standard.

As an engineer or as Joe public you can replace a plug, delve within an appliance etc, legally! You cannot touch fixed wiring! Those are the legalities, however things get a lot murkier very quickly the moment you wish to do such works commercially.

So you are saying that anyone can do appliance work as long as it is not paid work?

The other mistake in this thread is reference to Electrical Contractors License, anyone can apply for one of these, the applicant does not have to be a qualified electrician. The rub is however that to do any electrical work you need to have in your employ a licensed electrical mechanic who does or supervises the work.

Not anyone you need to be  A qualified business person and be or employ A qualified technical person and if one leave's you need to employ another one within 1 month.

The electrical contractor licence is automatically suspended
if, for a period of 1 month, there is no person—
(a) who is a qualified business person for the individual and
whose name is endorsed on the electrical contractor
licence as a qualified business person for the individual;
or
(b) who is a qualified technical person for the individual
and whose name is endorsed on the electrical contractor
licence as a qualified technical person for the individual.

Electrical contractor licence
requirements
40 Eligibility requirements for electrical contractor licence
for individual
(1) To be issued an electrical contractor licence, an individual
must—
(a) have at least 1 qualified business person and 1 qualified
technical person; and
(b) satisfy the financial and insurance requirements
prescribed in this division for an individual for an
electrical contractor licence; and
(c) satisfy the chief executive electrical work to be
performed by the individual as a licensed electrical
contractor is proposed to be—
(i) performed by a qualified technical person for the
individual under the person’s electrical work
licence; or
(ii) supervised by a qualified technical person for the
individual who is authorised to perform the work
under the person’s electrical work licence.
(2) The chief executive must endorse the electrical contractor
licence with the name of at least 1 qualified business person
and 1 qualified technical person for the individual.
(3) The individual may, before the issue of the electrical
contractor licence, or at any time after its issue but while the
electrical contractor licence is in force, apply to the chief
executive to have other names endorsed on the electrical
contractor licence as the names of qualified business persons
or qualified technical persons for the individual.
(4) The chief executive must endorse a person’s name in
accordance with the application if the chief executive is
satisfied the person is a qualified business person or qualified
technical person for the individual.

(1) A qualified business person, for an individual, partnership or
corporation, is an individual who satisfies the chief executive
that he or she—
(a) is a fit and proper person; and
(b) is competent to perform the business aspects of
performing electrical work as, or for, a licensed
electrical contractor; and
(c) either—
(i) has satisfactorily finished a course of instruction,
or an examination required by the chief executive,
on business aspects of performing electrical work;
or
(ii) has been operating a business for a period of, or
periods totalling, 5 years.

[gregariz]

For the benefit of New Zealand readers maybe Leo should include a monthly column on wiring ones home to Australian Standards

NZ has the same standard.

It would be quite wrong for Australians to learn about Australian Standards.

[Uncle Vernon]

NZ has the same standard.

NZ follows identical standards, the do however have very different regulations. Each of the Australian states follows AS:3000 but regulations differ from state to state.

So you are saying that anyone can do appliance work as long as it is not paid work?

No even charities get caught up in the bureaucracy. To sell a 2nd hand lamp at an OP-shop required a test tag. Yet any piece of imported crap can be sold new untested. The onus being on the seller or importer, with an assumption they have ensured each item complies with local regulations. Madness.
What I was saying is you can quite legally perform such works for yourself, unlike fixed wiring which you cannot without qualifications.

Not anyone you need to be  A qualified business person and be or employ A qualified technical person and if one leaves you need to employ another one within 1 month.

WTF is a qualified business person? Anyone can register a business.. I've seen the law bent on occasion by placing a subcontractor on the books.

The electrical contractor licence is automatically suspended
if, for a period of 1 month, there is no person—
(a) who is a qualified business person for the individual and
whose name is endorsed on the electrical contractor
licence as a qualified business person for the individual;
or
(b) who is a qualified technical person for the individual
and whose name is endorsed on the electrical contractor
licence as a qualified technical person for the individual.

any works must be performed by licensed and qualified personnel, A licensed contractor with no licensed staff could only do work during that period by using a licensed subcontractor.

The point remains that an Electrical Contractors Licence and an Electricians licence are very different things.

[Uncle Vernon]

For the benefit of New Zealand readers maybe Leo should include a monthly column on wiring ones home to Australian Standards

NZ has the same standard.

It would be quite wrong for Australians to learn about Australian Standards.

For the benefit of those from other lands, the distinction is in regulations rather than the wiring rules which are identical. NZ has taken a much more intelligent and less bureaucratic approach to DIY wiring, realising that people are going to do it themselves anyway.
The approach NZ has taken is that if DIYers are going to do their own wiring, it only makes sense to try and educate them do it correctly. DIY wiring is not encouraged but efforts are made to make sure DIYers know what is required to do the work and to do the work safely. 
As a one time in the deep dark past (and still licensed) electrician I'd commend the NZ policy in comparison to local stupidity.

[Jimmy]

Quote

    The electrical contractor licence is automatically suspended
    if, for a period of 1 month, there is no person—
    (a) who is a qualified business person for the individual and
    whose name is endorsed on the electrical contractor
    licence as a qualified business person for the individual;
    or
    (b) who is a qualified technical person for the individual
    and whose name is endorsed on the electrical contractor
    licence as a qualified technical person for the individual.

any works must be performed by licensed and qualified personnel, A licensed contractor with no licensed staff could only do work during that period by using a licensed subcontractor.

Sorry I forgot to note that he quotes were from the QLD electrical safety act. So you are arguing a point with a legal document which is futile. Sorry that's my fault.

Anyway lets get this debate back on David's agenda in QLD how can he fix audio equipment legally.

 I am not sure because I thought you needed to be qualified to work on anything over 50v ac and 110v ripple free dc. However audio equipment after the psu would normally fall under those voltages and a restricted electrical license would cover the plug and psu side of things for testing and replacement for like products. Does a plumber with a restricted electrical license to change hot water systems need to work for a licensed electrical contractor? 

[Uncle Vernon]

Sorry I forgot to note that he quotes were from the QLD electrical safety act. So you are arguing a point with a legal document which is futile. Sorry that's my fault.

Not at all, what you must remember is what works that act has jurisdiction over. Fixed wiring! as has been mentioned many times.

Anyway lets get this debate back on David's agenda in QLD how can he fix audio equipment legally.

In terms of the electrical safety act yes he can provided it is not fixed wiring. In terms of OH&S, work-cover, insurances, consumer protection laws the situation is less clear.

I am not sure because I thought you needed to be qualified to work on anything over 50v ac and 110v ripple free dc.

It is 32VAC and again this only applies to fixed wiring.

However audio equipment after the pus would normally fall under those voltages and a restricted electrical license would cover the plug and pus side of things for testing and replacement for like products.

Audio stages can often be 100V and over rail to rail. To be pedantic 100V lines are common for PA speakers, again we come back to it is not fixed wiring. A restricted licence may be sufficient to appease the insurance company, work cover etc but would be only required to satisfy the issues outside the scope of any Electrical rules.

Does a plumber with a restricted electrical license to change hot water systems need to work for a licensed electrical contractor?

No! Can a plumber reconnect a replacement HWS? Maybe! If the reconnection can be achieved with existing cables and there are no changes to the sub-circuit,yes he can as long as he does not work alone. Can you install or modify a sub-circuit on a restricted license? The answer for most states is no! 

David will need to satisfy any workplace requirements of a potential employer. If working for himself. my best advice would be to do a Test'n'Tag course. If he is qualified to test item he can test and return his own work. He cannot work on fixed wiring without a ticket and he need to discuss with his insurance company any requirements for this type of work.

The electrical regulation bodies should, but do not, offer support to workers from non electrical trades.

[Jimmy]

Wow Uncle Vernon I can't believe I missed that point "act has jurisdiction over" I feel like a goose. I have been educated on something today. It is a very grey area which is why most company's just hire licensed electricians.

[Uncle Vernon]

It is a very grey area which is why most company's just hire licensed electricians.

That's it in a nutshell. The problem being that not many electricians can fix amplifiers, repair microwaves, even troubleshoot control systems. There are too many interest and lobby groups bending political ears and as a nation (like most western nations) we are being dragged into unproductive bureaucratic sinkholes.
It's a nightmare for employers, employees and customers,a nighmare where are concerned are losing. The unions, the industry associations, the businesses and the (once were) employees.

Higher wages are only part of the cost of business, scan back through this thread and you get a good idea why nothing gets repaired and everything is made overseas.  </rant>

[David Aurora]

Wow... didn't check this thread for a few days, came back and now I'm even more baffled!

To be honest, I've spent the last week just building and fixing stuff (ELV stuff except for the bench supply I built myself) and trying not to even think about this, it was burning me out. What a mess. The rules as told by the authority I spoke to and by various people here are all quite different. And I don't know who is really right, because some of the people here seem much more clued into the laws than the authorities were (at least the person I spoke to), but then there's still disagreement about it. Then there's schools, other sparkys I know who I've spoken to and audio gear geeks too, who have their own interpretations and opinions to throw into the mix.

I think when the law is this widely interpreted, it's safe to say it's a clusterfuck, yeah? 

[Jimmy]

David

Uncle Vernon hit the nail in my head with

Not at all, what you must remember is what works that act has jurisdiction over. Fixed wiring!

[David Aurora]

So I finally got around to following up on this again with the ESO.

Same result as last time, only with a far less helpful person. The guy told me the term "ripple free DC" was above his level of technical expertise, so that goes a long way towards explaining why talking to call centre staff about actual issues is so frustrating. I don't know how typical of the staff there this guy was, but the guy was absolutely clueless about this stuff, all he knew was what he could read off his screen. He didn't try to hide this, and I didn't grill him about it or anything, but it was very frustrating.

About the fixed wiring thing- are you trying to say that I can work on devices, but not wiring in walls? Because the guy today was the second guy in a row there to tell me specifically I can't work on equipment such as amps/effects racks and so on, which obviously aren't part of that. Or does fixed wiring here mean a non-detachable power cord? I didn't specifically ask about that case on the phone, though I've asked that in an email because the guy on the phone was completely stumped about the whole situation and told me I'd have to ask all my licensing questions/regulation questions through email so they can find somebody in the office who understands and can answer the questions. Yes, the people who handle licensing couldn't answer my licensing questions or understand the terminology. Not a misprint haha.

Anyways, if I get a reply I'll happily pass on the info (maybe best as the complete emails so there's no chance of misunderstanding).

Question for Uncle Vernon though, you mentioned 32VAC, where is that number from? I haven't heard that figure at all so far in conversations with ESO. Is that related to the ELV thing (which I've been told multiple times is 50VAC/110VDC) or a separate fixed wiring thing?