EE Pros: Is RPN still relevant?

[bitseeker]

Not that I could find. Everyone has N/LR1 in Alkaline, but not NiMH. Got links?

[aargee]

I'd like N size rechargeables as well, the last ones I ever saw were Radio Shack branded Enercell NiCD cells.

Still use my HP-11 and HP41 regularly. Really kicked that I passed up on a bargain 'class set' (30 or so calculators as a class set, used in high school) of HP 11 calculators many years back.

[eugenenine]

Not that I could find. Everyone has N/LR1 in Alkaline, but not NiMH. Got links?

I see the first amazon link goes to one that is out of stock

second link was https://www.batterybob.com/products/5580-n-size-rechargeable-2-pack-n-360nm/ looks to be in stock though I don't know who battery bob is


Interstate has retail stores in some places now.

http://www.interstatebatteries.com/Products/RT/PID-ASC1055%28Other+Products%29.aspx

The 'also fits' page gives a good laugh if you read about the middle of the list, I didn't know motorola made those types of products

[MrAl]

They are all on the sidelines now, now that i have software for the PC that i wrote myself and also some that i downloaded, and none of those advanced calculators, even all taken together, can even come close to what i have on the computer these days.

I use Mathematica but in parallel with my RPN HP50g.  A computer and even PDA lacks the convenience of a dedicated calculator when I am designing on paper.  The calculator is portable, I don't have to worry about the batteries dying, and it has a superior user interface unless something much more complex is being done and not even then sometimes.  Oddly enough it is often faster as well although the 48 MHz ARM based HP50g is slower than the 4 MHz 4-bit HP48g that it replaced.

It looks to me like HP is leaving the calculator business so I suspect RPN as used as a calculator interface will finally succumb.

Hi,

Yes the algebraic type software does make life easier.
I think i used the HP49 something.

Wow HP leaving the calculators?  That's nuts.  That's how the world changes i guess, and some changes are not good.

[MrAl]

They are all on the sidelines now, now that i have software for the PC that i wrote myself and also some that i downloaded, and none of those advanced calculators, even all taken together, can even come close to what i have on the computer these days.

When we all used calculators you couldn't fit a computer in your pocket.  One of my early projects was making a data acquisition board for my 48sx.  I gave up on that project after a while when you were able to buy DMM's, DSO's etc that could communicate with a PC/laptop.

When I learned that forth was postfix I started looking into it, before I wasn't interested as I though it just another language.

Now a days I don't use my hp as much as I would like but the feel of the keyboard is still there.  Its like asking someone why they have a manual transmission.

In reality its probably not relevant much anymore, I still prefer to design my wooddorking  or schematics on paper, never got used to cad either.

Hi,

Yeah i used calculators when my only computer was a TRS80 ha ha.

I dont think i picked up a calculator for a year now.  The last calculator i used was actually on the PC computer, a virtual one.  I used to use the Windows default calc a lot, but then wrote a program to do all sorts of stuff and then a very simple calculator for just banging some numbers out, which i use mostly now.
Most of the other stuff i do now requires an algebraic system anyway so i have to use that now, and i only have that for the PC right now.

[MrAl]

Back in the old days when i first discovered the TI high end calc's i loved them, and they did all kinds of stuff.  Then i met the advanced HP that did Fourier and Laplace Transforms, then i went back to the TI when it came with even more advanced functions.  They are all on the sidelines now, now that i have software for the PC that i wrote myself and also some that i downloaded, and none of those advanced calculators, even all taken together, can even come close to what i have on the computer these days.

For the last month, I have been playing with wxMaxima on a PC and it is terrific!  No calculator will ever compare to this CAS (Computer Algebra System) with a 27" screen.  About this, I am an evangelist!  I believe!

Not all that many people actually need a CAS in their everyday lives.  Those who work in tech probably do but they are probably already using such a thing.  Everybody in a college STEM program needs something.  I just use the calculators for grunt number crunching.

Maple and Octave are also highly regarded as CAS programs.  Maple tends to cost money and, although I have downloaded Octave, I haven't started using it.  I'm still learning about wxMaxima.  Matlab needs to be on the list as well.  Mathworks has libraries for everything!

Hi,

I second that.  I used Maxima too now and then and it allows me to create formulas that would take hours without it or something like that.  Before that i used my own software written to perform symbolic algebra, and i still have to use that sometimes because there are problems and limitations to Maxima.

I agree that no calculator i have ever seen can come close to what is available for the PC.  I have an advanced TI that does differential equations and has CAS, but it still doesnt come close and also TI made a big mistake when they went to "lower case only" variables.  That's the dumbest thing i ever saw.  My previous TI had upper and lower case which is almost mandatory.  Resistors with variable names like "r1", "r2", just dont cut it for me, they should be "R1" and "R2", etc.  If a calculator wont let me do that then i wont use it very much.  Last time i used that one was just to replace the batteries :-)

[eugenenine]

I'd like N size rechargeables as well, the last ones I ever saw were Radio Shack branded Enercell NiCD cells.

Still use my HP-11 and HP41 regularly. Really kicked that I passed up on a bargain 'class set' (30 or so calculators as a class set, used in high school) of HP 11 calculators many years back.

I really had to bite my tongue in radio shack as their salesdroid  was explaining why their $5 per cell 1200mAH AA NIMH were better than anyone elses.  I was buying $2 per cell Sanyo's at the time (pre-eneloop).

[free_electron]

Absolutely!  The calculator I prefer to use, an HP48GX, uses ONLY RPN.  Some calculators use a mish-mashed RPN and some use either algebraic or text-book entry.

My grandson is taking Calc I and when we do the homework, we both use HP48GXs.  It is his preferred calculator after using HP Prime, TI Nspire and a couple of others.

It takes about 5 minutes to learn RPN, it just isn't a big deal.  Try (3+4)(5+6)/(4+5)*(7+8)
3 Enter
4 Plus
5 Enter
6 Plus
*
4 Enter
5 Plus
7 Enter
8 Plus
*
/

Now try it with something else!

I'm not an evangelist.  I use RPN and have for over 40 years.  Use it if you think it helps, skip it if you don't.

problem with rpn is that you have to remember where you are in the 'stack'. and you need to respect the order of operations.
me ? gimme brackets. type it in exactly as it is written. no wiggle room.

[bitseeker]

I see the first amazon link goes to one that is out of stock

Interesting. Amazon's search didn't even give me an out of stock one. The first several pages of results were pushing Alkalines at me despite trying "NiMH" and "rechargeable" in the search query.

second link was https://www.batterybob.com/products/5580-n-size-rechargeable-2-pack-n-360nm/ looks to be in stock though I don't know who battery bob is

Me either. But I did find that one via regular web search. It was the only US source I could locate and quite pricey at that.

Interstate has retail stores in some places now.

http://www.interstatebatteries.com/Products/RT/PID-ASC1055%28Other+Products%29.aspx

Thanks for the links. I hadn't seen Interstate in my web search. Reasonable price and sold in single units. The 28S uses 3 cells instead of the usual 2 or 4.

[eugenenine]

Not sure what city your near but we have multiple interstate battery stores around so you can actually drive to them and buy some.  Handy when you need UPS batteries, they are heavy to ship.

I just did a plain old google search, were you trying to use something useless like bing?

[firehopper]

I used to get magazines from the library with ads for hp calculators, it was like playboys for nerds.
I graduated high school and then 48sx was released and I worked and saved months for it and finally saved up the $300 and bought it from a store called service merchandise.  It was under glass like in a jewelry store so I made my purchase then went to the waiting room where the product you bought came out on a belt like luggage in the airport.  I almost cried when that little box finally came down the belt for me.

oh god I remember service merchandice.. so many years ago..

[eugenenine]

It was 1992.

I sat down years ago and scanned boxes of paper, so I still have the original store receipt.  I scanned my 48sx manual and uploaded to the museum and they are on the CD set they sell.

[bitseeker]

I just did a plain old google search, were you trying to use something useless like bing?

Oh, heavens no! It must've thought I was in the UK or something. Getting results like yours now.

Looking forward to using a real RPN calculator again. I wonder if the memory still has my engineering programs from university days.

[eugenenine]

I just did a plain old google search, were you trying to use something useless like bing?

Oh, heavens no! It must've thought I was in the UK or something. Getting results like yours now.

You have to search for those metric size batteries over there 

[cncjerry]

Swissmicros make a full size 15c version as well as the smaller types that are credit card sized.  They also have a 42L coming out that is basically the hacked 42 with the intel decimal library. It will be the most accurate calculator on the market.   I am on the beta list to test it.

I am an RPN type up until the prime came out.  That calculator is awesome but you really need to run it in algebraic mode to get the nice print.

I own just about all the desireable HP calculators as well as the TI59 types with the card readers.  Just love sucking a card into one in the middle of a meeting.  I don't have the HP RPN with printer on one of the earlier posts, going to start looking for one again.  Bar your doors.

I pulled my HP59 out after one of the previous posts as I forgot how easy they are to program.  I love the 35 re-do as well in the same picture.  I keep a 41cx by my bed in case I wake at night and have to count sheep.  I have the 15C limited as well as an original, bummed about the limited's bugs but Swissmicros fixed them in their version.  I have a spotless 16C, a 65 and 67.  The 65 and 67 just aren't holding up though, they take a lot of love to keep the card readers running.

I've been collecting calculators for 40yrs as well as slide rules.  Have a bunch of them, and even circular ones that hang on keychains and are full function.  I'm sure Eric is reading this post.  He gave me quite a few slide rules and calculators as well.

[bitseeker]

Jerry, sounds like a calculator thread in the making (if you haven't already). Sounds like you've got a great collection. Also interested to hear about your Swissmicros experience when you get it.

[Elf]

When the Swissmicros shows up...can you report back?  I don't think there is even any attempt to conceal the inspiration...but would be keen on hearing how well it matches up.

So I received my SwissMicros DM15L late last week, and have been using it for a bit. I also bought an HP 12C 30th Anniversary Edition (financial calculator) new off Amazon, which is now made for HP by Kinpo in China.

Both have been amazingly handy so far. I forgot what I have been missing out on by using Windows Calculator. It took a fair bit of reading in multi-hundred page thick manuals to get up to speed, but once you remember what all the functions are and what registers they use, it becomes fairly natural to get around.

Having both the SwissMicros and the HP/Kinpo is an interesting comparison. I usually suspicious of off-shored manufacturing, but the HP/Kinpo 12C is actually pretty good. The 12C case is almost entirely plastic (excepting the LCD bezel), although I think they always were, but it still feels high quality. The beveled keys have a nice click to them, although it isn't what I would call stiff. It feels light, runs quickly, and has a minimum of bugs, especially compared to some of the other Kinpo calculators.

Conversely the SwissMicros calculator uses all flat keys, no bevel. I like the beveled keys of the HP better as far as the shape and appearance, but there is no deficit in quality in the SwissMicros version and it is quite usable. The key clicks on the SwissMicros are very positive; a bit stiffer than the 12C, but not in a bad way. Just different. The case is also mostly metal (a matte titanium), versus the HP's plastic. Between the keys and the case, the overall feeling is that the SwissMicros is much more rugged. It even feels heavier, although the difference is not that great (132g vs 122g as measured just now).  The SwissMicros has a dot matrix LCD screen which I find a little less readable than the HP's segmented LCD, but with regular lighting it isn't a problem. The processor and emulation are very quick.

One major benefit that I am seeing for the SwissMicros over the HPs is that they provide a USB connection for easy firmware upgrades, and that the firmware seems to be completely bug free. If you are into programming it, they have also massively expanded the available memory. Apparently there is a new firmware for my 12C to fix the few remaining bugs, but it is not available for download from HP (it seems you need to know somebody) and you need some sort of rare pogo-pin JTAG cable to reprogram it. Not a very great customer experience given that the bugs were fixed almost 8 years ago but the fix never made it into production. Although, it seems like HP wants to forget about their calculator division entirely these days.

Overall I think SwissMicros did a pretty good job, and I will also buy their DM16L.

[claytonedgeuk]

When the Swissmicros shows up...can you report back?  I don't think there is even any attempt to conceal the inspiration...but would be keen on hearing how well it matches up.

So I received my SwissMicros DM15L late last week, and have been using it for a bit. I also bought an HP 12C 30th Anniversary Edition (financial calculator) new off Amazon, which is now made for HP by Kinpo in China.

Both have been amazingly handy so far. I forgot what I have been missing out on by using Windows Calculator. It took a fair bit of reading in multi-hundred page thick manuals to get up to speed, but once you remember what all the functions are and what registers they use, it becomes fairly natural to get around.

Having both the SwissMicros and the HP/Kinpo is an interesting comparison. I usually suspicious of off-shored manufacturing, but the HP/Kinpo 12C is actually pretty good. The 12C case is almost entirely plastic (excepting the LCD bezel), although I think they always were, but it still feels high quality. The beveled keys have a nice click to them, although it isn't what I would call stiff. It feels light, runs quickly, and has a minimum of bugs, especially compared to some of the other Kinpo calculators.

Conversely the SwissMicros calculator uses all flat keys, no bevel. I like the beveled keys of the HP better as far as the shape and appearance, but there is no deficit in quality in the SwissMicros version and it is quite usable. The key clicks on the SwissMicros are very positive; a bit stiffer than the 12C, but not in a bad way. Just different. The case is also mostly metal (a matte titanium), versus the HP's plastic. Between the keys and the case, the overall feeling is that the SwissMicros is much more rugged. It even feels heavier, although the difference is not that great (132g vs 122g as measured just now).  The SwissMicros has a dot matrix LCD screen which I find a little less readable than the HP's segmented LCD, but with regular lighting it isn't a problem. The processor and emulation are very quick.

One major benefit that I am seeing for the SwissMicros over the HPs is that they provide a USB connection for easy firmware upgrades, and that the firmware seems to be completely bug free. If you are into programming it, they have also massively expanded the available memory. Apparently there is a new firmware for my 12C to fix the few remaining bugs, but it is not available for download from HP (it seems you need to know somebody) and you need some sort of rare pogo-pin JTAG cable to reprogram it. Not a very great customer experience given that the bugs were fixed almost 8 years ago but the fix never made it into production. Although, it seems like HP wants to forget about their calculator division entirely these days.

Overall I think SwissMicros did a pretty good job, and I will also buy their DM16L.

Brilliant!  Thanks Elf....Good to know the swissmicros are as good as they look. 

I also have the 12c and it's what started me on this silly obsession. 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[MBY]

Yes, I would say that RPN is very much still relevant today. It's a shame that it is not more mainstream than it is. Once you have learned RPN, you never want to go back to algebraic mode, especially not modern variants that somehow succeed in being stupider than older variants. 

Its a difference between "easy to use" and "easy to learn". Often, these two gets confused and since algebraic mode are self-explanatory and easy to learn, people tend to stay with algebraich mode. But algebraic mode is NOT easy to use compared to RPN. You will save keystrokes (and thats important on a small interface such as a calculator), time and confusion as you develop a feel for correct entries, subtotals and validation of the results. Things like reciprocals and "out of order entry" of numbers gets much more straight forward with RPN and done correctly you never ever need to use parenthesis¹.

Nothing beats having a physical calculator, so don't bother with apps or desktop programs. There is a few ways to get hold of an RPN calculator. Vintage HPs and swiss micros are certainly quality, but the prices can be a setback and if calculator nerdiness is not you thing and you only want a calculator like everyone else to use on an occasional basis you can go for cheap. Searching eBay for RPN calculators and order by price yields many former Soviet calculators, mainly MK-61 and MK-52. They are both very decent calculators but the keyboard kind of sucks. You get used to it and learn how to handle it well, but at the beginning, expect unintentional missed and double-presses on the keyboard. So, if you are unfamiliar with both RPN and a el cheapo keyboard it can maybe be a problem to know whats wrong when unexpected results are given. 

The newer HP-35s are perhaps the cheapest way to obtain a new western RPN calculator, but it have a few quirks that can drive you mad. Such as the "feature" (read "bug") that a number in floating point mode not always fits the screen and you have to scroll sideways. That's just sloppy design and inexcusable. You almost have to operate the damn thing in fixed point mode with a reduced number of decimals.

The HP-32Sii may be the best all-round RPN calculator, but sadly it typically costs at least $100. But if you happen to run by an working HP-32S at a lesser price, don't hesitate, buy it!

Learning RPN takes 10-15 minutes of hard work to commit it to your spinal cord². Then, you are free. Forever free. You won't lose your ability to use algebraic mode, but you won't prefer it and you will grunt and swear at the stupidity of it.

1) My English defies me here. What is parenthesis in plural? Parenthesises? Parenthesisies? Parenthesisessess? Any combo of 's or s'?
2) Or cerebellum I would guess.

[Gyro]

Nothing beats having a physical calculator, so don't bother with apps or desktop programs.

Well that was a bit of an old thread resurrection.

With regard to the "physical calculator", that rather depends on what you regard as 'physical' these days with smartphones etc. Personally I use Neocal on an old but perfectly serviceable Palm TX, perfectly physical to me.

Anyway, the point I want to make is that these devices can normally allow you to view the entire RPN stack, not just the X register. This is invaluable in both ease of learning and reducing errors in operation. There are very few 'physical' RPN calculators (especially the 'classics') that display more than one line.

[rstofer]

V_o=V_in(1-e^-t/RC)

This is a nice formula for sorting out calculators.  It's not like we don't use it from time to time.

[bitseeker]

1) My English defies me here. What is parenthesis in plural? Parenthesises? Parenthesisies? Parenthesisessess? Any combo of 's or s'?

Yeah, it's a weird one. The ending is modified, rather than appending a suffix, in order to create the plural inflection. Change the 'is' to an 'es'.

Singular: parenthesis
Plural: parentheses

[newbrain]

Yeah, it's a weird one. The ending is modified, rather than appending a suffix, in order to create the plural inflection. Change the 'is' to an 'es'.

It comes from (late) Latin, 3rd declension.
The Nominative case ends (often) in -is for the singular and -es for the plural.

Many other names in the technical field come from Latin (and Greek, either directly or, once again, through Latin), e.g.: analysis, pl. analyses.

IT (In Topic): I just got an HP 35s. Yes, I know it has bugs. Yes, I know it's not really exactly as the old HPs. Still, I feel at home using it.

[0culus]

Nothing beats having a physical calculator, so don't bother with apps or desktop programs.

Well that was a bit of an old thread resurrection.

With regard to the "physical calculator", that rather depends on what you regard as 'physical' these days with smartphones etc. Personally I use Neocal on an old but perfectly serviceable Palm TX, perfectly physical to me.

Anyway, the point I want to make is that these devices can normally allow you to view the entire RPN stack, not just the X register. This is invaluable in both ease of learning and reducing errors in operation. There are very few 'physical' RPN calculators (especially the 'classics') that display more than one line.

I think it's obvious from context that he means an actual calculator, not an app running on something else.

I recently acquired an HP-15C to go with my HP-16C, and I love it. It's not the fastest calculator out there, but it's damn powerful. And user satisfaction? Through the roof. 

[Gyro]

I think it's obvious from context that he means an actual calculator, not an app running on something else.

Yes, I know it is obvious.

The thread is about whether RPN is still relevant though, and the point I was (clearly) making was about physical limitations of their displays and the benefits of having the whole stack visible.

Surely we're talking about the advantages of RPN, not (now relatively rare) calculator model 'fandom' (I had a 16C from new but don't miss it compared to what I use now).