Equip your electronics bench- Help!!!

[finom1]

Hello, I just finished watching your review of the Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETCOhzU1O5A, amazing!!! Thank you for all your videos!

I am retired, old and would like to start building Cigar Box amplifiers for my kids. I have no electronics experience but back in the 1970s I worked for Westinghouse Electric building test benches and radars for fighter jets. I was a assembly mechanic and wire-man. Point to point wiring using wiring diagrams and layout diagrams. But only the test department knew what all the electrons were doing and why!!!. I am NASA certified in soldering.

I watched this other video on setting up a workbench for building and repairing amps: I also found this: https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_selection_guide.htm Could I use this software to generate a signal for all my building needs. Also, what equipment is need to check & see the signal for Even & Odd Harmonics, Harmonic distortion, Wattage of the output etc... to build a hi-quality less then 150 watt amp? You are the smartest person my son and I have found on youtube. My birthday is July 15, I will be 62 and would like to start buying one piece of equipment at a time.

Bless you for helping us and Happy Fourth of July!!!

[Rerouter]

More than just one of us here, but happy to help,

Here is another thread on just such a desire, essentially what you desire to measure harmonic distortion is more for a FFT function or proper spectrum analyser, but others may know better ways for low frequency measurements,

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-fft-for-audio-spectrum/

And here is a video showing you most of the method,

[danadak]

Here is a freebee that you can start with, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, signal generator -


https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en


Note protect your sound card inputs -


http://www.daqarta.com/dw_0all.htm

http://www.edaboard.com/thread259543.html


Regards, Dana.

[finom1]

More than just one of us here, but happy to help,

Here is another thread on just such a desire, essentially what you desire to measure harmonic distortion is more for a FFT function or proper spectrum analyser, but others may know better ways for low frequency measurements,

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-fft-for-audio-spectrum/

And here is a video showing you most of the method,

Hi,
Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me & my son. I have a couple of Hammond & Wurlitzer amps that we want to convert into Cigar Box Guitar amps!!! It looks like so much fun. Here is an example of what we would like to do:

Keep the advice flowing. There must be many who understand what equipment is needed to see all the appropriate data for this type of project.

Thanks again.

[finom1]

Here is a freebee that you can start with, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, signal generator -


https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en


Note protect your sound card inputs -


http://www.daqarta.com/dw_0all.htm

http://www.edaboard.com/thread259543.html


Regards, Dana.

Hi Dana,
Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me & my son.

"Note protect your sound card inputs -", great advice. Thank you for telling us were the land mines are!!!

Can this software see the , Even & Odd harmonic peaks, wattage etc... that goes along with amp building?

Bless you for helping us. It's very exciting starting on our amp building quest in life. Great people sharing their knowledge here. What we learn we will share also!!!

Thanks again and Happy Fourth of July!!!

[bitslice]

I watched this other video on setting up a workbench for building and repairing amps:

Well you can toss that $2500 figure in the garbage, it's not going to cost anywhere near that,
especially in America where second hand HP equipment goes for pennies.

[finom1]

I watched this other video on setting up a workbench for building and repairing amps:

Well you can toss that $2500 figure in the garbage, it's not going to cost anywhere near that,
especially in America where second hand HP equipment goes for pennies.

Hello,
Any advice on exactly what equipment to purchase that will meet all of our needs in building small Pre-Amps & Amplifiers?

Thank you.

[finom1]

What does everyone think about this?:
D-lab recommends how to repair tube amps best oscilloscope Iwatsu SS-5702 -

Thanks for your help.

[bitslice]

Any advice on exactly what equipment to purchase that will meet all of our needs in building small Pre-Amps & Amplifiers?

I'm not an audio guy at all, I'm just looking at the tat that guy was demonstrating and thinking I've got much nicer stuff for maybe £400 total. But then I've been slowly picking it up for a year or so, rather than having a shopping list to get right now.

This might be useful list of handy stuff.
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/testeq.htm

I'd maybe look for speakers used as studio monitors, you need something accurate rather than say warm sounding. The same for a test amplifier.

I'd guess that a distortion meter would be useful.

I'd imagine an analog signal generator produces less noise than a digital one, same for a linear PSU rather than a switched mode one, but price is a factor.

Audio seems to involve a lot of component fiddling, so maybe an LCR meter.


I've no list of actual kit to suggest, but personally I just look for something that was really expensive in 1990, that is now on eBay for pennies. The most I spent was maybe £140 on an almost new 100Mhz digital scope.

[finom1]

Thanks, great advice. It's always helpful when people include links of what has helped them get started.

Thanks again for sharing!!!

[bitslice]

This is pretty solid advice





If I lived in America I'd be typing "Hewlett Packard" into ebay.com and see what I could pick up in my local area.

[madires]

What does everyone think about this?:
D-lab recommends how to repair tube amps best oscilloscope Iwatsu SS-5702

It's a nice, simple and inexpensive analog scope for beginners and simple tasks. Nothing wrong with that! A 20MHz Leader scope is also fine, or an old Hameg (easy to repair, stardard components, circuit diagrams and service manuals available for free). Pick any of those scopes for a reasonable price, but make sure it's running fine. There are tons of videos on how to use a scope and the most important thing is to remember, that the ground leads of the probes are connected to the case and ground (wall socket's earth).

[finom1]

Hello,
Thank you for telling us what to watch out for and how to properly hookup things. There are so many wise people here but please remember we are just starting out. We need to hear all your thoughts on what to watch out for. I love hearing stories of lessons learned!!!

I am visual learner, so if someone gives me an equation to show me how to solve something or to show a result, I will learn quicker and retain the information seeing a visual display of it.

Thank you for sharing!!!

[Shock]

I strongly recommend to buy as little equipment as you can because it's a misconception that you need to rush out and spend large, it won't help completing your projects and only take away funds that could be otherwise spent on assembly and parts.

Typically you would upgrade your bench as you see the need, but if you have a lot of money to throw at it then by all means say so and start spending up.

Do look for a couple of multimeters suitable for measuring AC/DC voltages rated for 1000V (avoid cheap Chinese when it comes to safety). You can find lots of information already here on the forums regarding brands, measuring voltage/current and biasing is easier with multiple meters. I'd budget at least $50 each for something secondhand. Your multimeter will be your most used piece of test equipment.

An audio signal generator can be had for free if you use a PC or cheaply using a home made circuit. On Ebay you can find cheap Chinese kits and generators starting at about $20.

Capacitance, ESR tester. Chinese on Ebay $20.

Oscilloscope, anything you can get your hands on, it needs to be two channel (which most are) to easily compare input to output.

Spectrum analyzer, a PC does a really good job, spectrum analyzers tend to be expensive so do not rush into this without doing proper homework on how spectrum analyzers work and importantly what you need to know when buying one.

Distortion analyzer, probably software again or later after you have made some progress you can consider upgrading.

Dummy loads can be expensive to make however a great "hack" is to use Utilitech 240V Universal (water heating) elements in different configurations to make 4/8/16 Ohm non reactive dummy loads. These were sold by lowes.com item #362342 for ~$9 each, see down below for a video explaining usage.

Google "Dim bulb tester" (aka the poor mans Variac), this is a reactive current limiting that allows you safely test your amp during it's maiden voyage.

Eventually you may want to invest in a Variac which allows you to slowly bring up amps to working voltages and also when used with transformers doubles as a handy way to get different AC voltages on the fly.

Read Chapter 3: Electrical Safety from this website until you fully understand every concept discussed.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/

Visit these 3 youtube channels and absorb some content.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEo3LPGD1gWfGJQoE0i1Gg/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/essoterric/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/Stratosaurus1/videos

[finom1]

Here is a freebee that you can start with, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, signal generator -


https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en


Note protect your sound card inputs -


http://www.daqarta.com/dw_0all.htm

http://www.edaboard.com/thread259543.html


Regards, Dana.

Hey Dana,
What do you think of this software? Which one has the most features?

https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_selection_guide.htm

Thank you.

[rstofer]

One is totally free, why not try it first?  The other has a varying cost depending on capability and may ultimately prove more useful at the high cost levels.  But I would try the free version first.

Actually, I wouldn't use either of them.  I'm not a fan of using my expensive PCs around high voltage stuff.  I might do it if I had a disposable PC and sound card but, at the moment, I don't.  For a similar reason, I hesitate to recommend the Digilent Analog Discovery that is ideal for what you are doing.  It has the advantage of being a test instrument, not a sound card.  But it connects to the PC's USB port and that makes me nervous for high voltage projects.  I do use it for 5V kinds of things and I rarely work on anything over 15 volts.

There are isolation devices for USB but I have never investigated how they work and how much protection they provide.

https://www.amazon.com/Isolator-5000-Dongle-Medical-Applications/dp/B00QU232UM/ref=pd_sim_267_7?ie=UTF8&dpID=31RFpMlMzGL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&psc=1&refRID=G66P22SRXJYWB4PYNW4Y

http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

[finom1]

One is totally free, why not try it first?  The other has a varying cost depending on capability and may ultimately prove more useful at the high cost levels.  But I would try the free version first.

Actually, I wouldn't use either of them.  I'm not a fan of using my expensive PCs around high voltage stuff.  I might do it if I had a disposable PC and sound card but, at the moment, I don't.  For a similar reason, I hesitate to recommend the Digilent Analog Discovery that is ideal for what you are doing.  It has the advantage of being a test instrument, not a sound card.  But it connects to the PC's USB port and that makes me nervous for high voltage projects.  I do use it for 5V kinds of things and I rarely work on anything over 15 volts.

There are isolation devices for USB but I have never investigated how they work and how much protection they provide.

https://www.amazon.com/Isolator-5000-Dongle-Medical-Applications/dp/B00QU232UM/ref=pd_sim_267_7?ie=UTF8&dpID=31RFpMlMzGL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&psc=1&refRID=G66P22SRXJYWB4PYNW4Y

http://store.digilentinc.com/analog-discovery-2-100msps-usb-oscilloscope-logic-analyzer-and-variable-power-supply/

Good advice,
I will stick to individual pieces of equipment. Could you please wright down the most valuable pieces equipment to get started that you like for the money?

Wattage will never be greater then 150 watts.

Thank you for sharing!!!

[finom1]

I strongly recommend to buy as little equipment as you can because it's a misconception that you need to rush out and spend large, it won't help completing your projects and only take away funds that could be otherwise spent on assembly and parts.

Typically you would upgrade your bench as you see the need, but if you have a lot of money to throw at it then by all means say so and start spending up.

Do look for a couple of multimeters suitable for measuring AC/DC voltages rated for 1000V (avoid cheap Chinese when it comes to safety). You can find lots of information already here on the forums regarding brands, measuring voltage/current and biasing is easier with multiple meters. I'd budget at least $50 each for something secondhand. Your multimeter will be your most used piece of test equipment.

An audio signal generator can be had for free if you use a PC or cheaply using a home made circuit. On Ebay you can find cheap Chinese kits and generators starting at about $20.

Capacitance, ESR tester. Chinese on Ebay $20.

Oscilloscope, anything you can get your hands on, it needs to be two channel (which most are) to easily compare input to output.

Spectrum analyzer, a PC does a really good job, spectrum analyzers tend to be expensive so do not rush into this without doing proper homework on how spectrum analyzers work and importantly what you need to know when buying one.

Distortion analyzer, probably software again or later after you have made some progress you can consider upgrading.

Dummy loads can be expensive to make however a great "hack" is to use Utilitech 240V Universal (water heating) elements in different configurations to make 4/8/16 Ohm non reactive dummy loads. These were sold by lowes.com item #362342 for ~$9 each, see down below for a video explaining usage.

Google "Dim bulb tester" (aka the poor mans Variac), this is a reactive current limiting that allows you safely test your amp during it's maiden voyage.

Eventually you may want to invest in a Variac which allows you to slowly bring up amps to working voltages and also when used with transformers doubles as a handy way to get different AC voltages on the fly.

Read Chapter 3: Electrical Safety from this website until you fully understand every concept discussed.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/

Visit these 3 youtube channels and absorb some content.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEo3LPGD1gWfGJQoE0i1Gg/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/essoterric/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/Stratosaurus1/videos

Perfectly logical sequence to follow. Thank you for sharing all those links, we are starting out and it's very exciting receiving all your information. Just fantastic. I think it's time to start a folder and print this information to be used as a bench reference.

Is it recommended to have digital & analog volt meters?

What device checks the total wattage & shows even and odd harmonics readings?

Thanks again.

[ez24]

Could you please wright down the most valuable pieces equipment to get started that you like for the money?

Is there a budget ?  If so, say 1/2 of it because people will go over your budget very fast.
If no budget - then out of my league


Here is a multimeter I just found out about but pricey.  The reason is it has two scales so you can see AC ripple (hum) on DC lines.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TO5YUK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

But I suppose that two cheap meters could do the same thing.  Use cheap Harbor Freight meters (even if 9v) to measure current.  This is what usually blows meters and fuses.  I have several that I hook up in every power line.

Try and get a meter that does not use 9v batteries

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/

Do not buy used analog scopes, they are heavy (shipping) take up a lot of space, and easy to lose money on.  I lost money on two of them.  A lot of people here like them but they also like to fix them (not easy).

There are cheaper scopes than the DZ1054z  (I have one of these).  Search Amazon for prices and reviews.

Take a look around this site for ideas (they give members a 10 % discount)

http://www.tequipment.net/?gclid=COSgxKry180CFZOCfgodSx4CYg

Some usually good used power supplies : Power Designs, HP   But it sounds like you do not need these.

Function gen (used)  Wavetek  Something like this maybe

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wavetek-Function-Generator-Model-110-Sine-Square-and-Triangle-Very-Good-Cond-/371667739552?hash=item56891fa3a0:g:fkYAAOSwvg9XcZHZ

Wavetek is very good quality (made in my home town - San Diego) and the chances what you buy will work

A place to look for goodies  - 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/from-no-parts-to-decent-stockpile-best-approach/

Do you really mean cigar box?  I wanted to build something in one and got turned off by the bar code and health warning.  Old ones on ebay are really expensive.

If you buy on ebay, buy only on items people bid on.  Sort on auction, then by the Most Bids first
All my dumb buys were the ones I was the only bidder.

If you do want an analog - get one from a seller who says and shows that it works (you will pay more for this service)   This is the only scope I would buy on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-Tek-465-Oscilloscope-Another-accurate-commercial-grade-instrument-/282078756772?hash=item41ad343fa4:g:lLwAAOSwNuxXbeKE

Because the seller is in the business of selling 465s  I wished I would have started with one of his 465s (one of the coolest scopes ever).  I  was being a cheap ass and lost a lot of money.

[finom1]

Could you please wright down the most valuable pieces equipment to get started that you like for the money?

Is there a budget ?  If so, say 1/2 of it because people will go over your budget very fast.
If no budget - then out of my league


Here is a multimeter I just found out about but pricey.  The reason is it has two scales so you can see AC ripple (hum) on DC lines.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003TO5YUK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

But I suppose that two cheap meters could do the same thing.  Use cheap Harbor Freight meters (even if 9v) to measure current.  This is what usually blows meters and fuses.  I have several that I hook up in every power line.

Try and get a meter that does not use 9v batteries

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/

Do not buy used analog scopes, they are heavy (shipping) take up a lot of space, and easy to lose money on.  I lost money on two of them.  A lot of people here like them but they also like to fix them (not easy).

There are cheaper scopes than the DZ1054z  (I have one of these).  Search Amazon for prices and reviews.

Take a look around this site for ideas (they give members a 10 % discount)

http://www.tequipment.net/?gclid=COSgxKry180CFZOCfgodSx4CYg

Some usually good used power supplies : Power Designs, HP   But it sounds like you do not need these.

Function gen (used)  Wavetek  Something like this maybe

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wavetek-Function-Generator-Model-110-Sine-Square-and-Triangle-Very-Good-Cond-/371667739552?hash=item56891fa3a0:g:fkYAAOSwvg9XcZHZ

Wavetek is very good quality (made in my home town - San Diego) and the chances what you buy will work

A place to look for goodies  - 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/from-no-parts-to-decent-stockpile-best-approach/

Do you really mean cigar box?  I wanted to build something in one and got turned off by the bar code and health warning.  Old ones on ebay are really expensive.

If you buy on ebay, buy only on items people bid on.  Sort on auction, then by the Most Bids first
All my dumb buys were the ones I was the only bidder.

If you do want an analog - get one from a seller who says and shows that it works (you will pay more for this service)   This is the only scope I would buy on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-Tek-465-Oscilloscope-Another-accurate-commercial-grade-instrument-/282078756772?hash=item41ad343fa4:g:lLwAAOSwNuxXbeKE

Because the seller is in the business of selling 465s  I wished I would have started with one of his 465s (one of the coolest scopes ever).  I  was being a cheap ass and lost a lot of money.

Hi, I would like to keep the budget under $1,600 so we have money for a project. Thank you for the great advice & sharing your wisdom!!! The Boss "My Wife" would say the budget is allot less, but if we start off slow with the purchases it will help us out to complete our test bench more completely with less attention. This will a great father-son experience to have. I'm getting on in life and he will have some great memories, you helping us now will be part of them.

Thanks again!

[ez24]

Nice budget.  If you have a Harbor Freight near you  - take you son there and let him buy stuff.  They sell meters (several models), wire, gadgets (like IR meter), tools (pliers, wire cutters, etc).  I would buy the most expensive soldering iron they have (probably shit) and go from there.  Soldering irons will be harder to pick than a scope.

And see what kind of shopping job he does.  If he does good, set him on Amazon or ebay for the big stuff.  See if he can pick the stuff out with you being his advisor.  Let him onto this site.  Let him make the decisions (with your help)

[oldway]

You must remember what measuring equipment was used at the time.

- Tubes tester.

- 1KVA variac with output circuit breaker.

- analog multimeter meter 20K / volt (as Avometer 8 )

- low distortion low frequency generator (Wien Bridge) (as HP-200cd)

- 8/15 ohm dummy load 100W

- Distortion analyser (as HP 331A)

- Oscilloscope 20 Mhz (one channel is enough)

- Probe / 100 2000V (to measure anode waveforms)

- Capacitor tester with leak function (as Heathkit condenser tester)

With the exception of the tube tester, everything else is very cheap.

Don't forget a 200W iron solder for chassis soldering.

NB: for repair, a tube signal tracer as Heathkit IT-12 may be usefull.

[finom1]

Nice budget.  If you have a Harbor Freight near you  - take you son there and let him buy stuff.  They sell meters (several models), wire, gadgets (like IR meter), tools (pliers, wire cutters, etc).  I would buy the most expensive soldering iron they have (probably shit) and go from there.  Soldering irons will be harder to pick than a scope.

And see what kind of shopping job he does.  If he does good, set him on Amazon or ebay for the big stuff.  See if he can pick the stuff out with you being his advisor.  Let him onto this site.  Let him make the decisions (with your help)

Great advice, teach him how to fish!!!
I have a couple of things from the old days, Weller soldering iron, Fluke 115 True RMS VM, good hand tools, the same type I used at Westinghouse in the old days. I just need to be able to see what the output of the components, tubes & finally the project looks like. Values, Watts, THD etc...

Thanks for the great advice!

[finom1]

You must remember what measuring equipment was used at the time.

- Tubes tester.

- 1KVA variac with output circuit breaker.

- analog multimeter meter 20K / volt (as Avometer 8 )

- low distortion low frequency generator (Wien Bridge) (as HP-200cd)

- 8/15 ohm dummy load 100W

- Distortion analyser (as HP 331A)

- Oscilloscope 20 Mhz (one channel is enough)

- Probe / 100 2000V (to measure anode waveforms)

- Capacitor tester with leak function (as Heathkit condenser tester)

With the exception of the tube tester, everything else is very cheap.

Don't forget a 200W iron solder for chassis soldering.

NB: for repair, a tube signal tracer as Heathkit IT-12 may be usefull.

Thank you for sharing. I have read allot about Heathkit products that people have used for years in restoring vintage radios & amplifiers.

Thanks again!

[ez24]

You must remember what measuring equipment was used at the time.

Thank you for sharing. I have read allot about Heathkit products that people have used for years in restoring vintage radios & amplifiers.
Thanks again!

Good list from oldway.  I forgot about Heathkits

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HEATHKIT-IT-11-/122028444079?hash=item1c697649af:g:7OYAAOSwNuxXcUwl

If I had the space I would probably start bidding on this - really cool