Fear of Lead

[helius]

Midgley had his karma problems.

Later, in his middle age he contracted polio and was partially paralyzed. Inventor of lead-tetraethyl and CFC refrigerents, he also invented a system of pulleys to lift his diseased body out of his bed. He was accidentally strangled by this device.

A sad story.
However, that has nothing to do with the Eastern mystical concept of karma, which has been badly misconstrued.
Anyway, CFCs were a significant step forward from the existing refrigerants (sulfur dioxide, methyl chloride, or ammonia), which caused numerous poisoning deaths from leaking domestic refrigerators.

[james_s]

CFCs worked very well and seemed to be practically ideal. Nobody knew they would harm the ozone layer until it happened.

If they had only been used as a refrigerant it probably wouldn't even have been a problem, but they were used *everywhere* as a propellant in aerosol cans of all types, and refrigeration techs would routinely just vent the charge to work on the system.

[chriswebb]

Here is a discussion of Merthiolate  (thiomersal) in vaccines by the US FDA : https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228  The following comments are based on that report and other generally available information, such as "normal" blood levels.

Most vaccines and especially childhood vaccines do not contain an thiomersal.

Those that do are for multiple dosing from a single vial, which keeps costs down without compromising safety.   Moreover, the organic mercury in thiomersal is converted to ethyl mercury, which is excreted rapidly unchanged.   Methyl mercury (as in fish) is much more toxic. 

A single does of a vaccine containing thiomersal will have about 12 ug of mercury equivalent.   If that is distributed in the usual adult blood volume of 5 L, the concentration the maximum concentration would be 2.4 ng/ml disregarding concurrent elimination.   Normal safe level for adults is considered to be  ?10 ng/ml.  Reports claim that dentists exposed to amalgam can have levels of mercury of 15 ng/ml without symptoms of toxicity.

And where is this anti-vaccine guy now? Too bad they won't try and actually educate themselves on the subject. You know because they clearly are very rational.

Also as far as this discussion is concerned. According to http://yarchive.net/space/metals_vapor_pressures.html the vapor pressure for Pb at melting point is 3x10^-9 torr or 0.4 micropascals.  So very neglible.

[james_s]

And where is this anti-vaccine guy now? Too bad they won't try and actually educate themselves on the subject. You know because they clearly are very rational.

Also as far as this discussion is concerned. According to http://yarchive.net/space/metals_vapor_pressures.html the vapor pressure for Pb at melting point is 3x10^-9 torr or 0.4 micropascals.  So very neglible.

Of course they won't, when pressed for data they can't provide it because it doesn't exist. The anti-vax thing is a religious belief, I don't mean that in the sense of god or the supernatural, but rather like conventional religion it is an emotional belief relying on blind faith rather than facts and evidence. Instead of simply calling it faith, people who believe vaccines are harmful actively engage in confirmation bias seeking out pseudo-scientific information that supports their existing belief and ignoring anything that doesn't. Almost all of the supporting information comes from the same sources, a combination of other like minded people passing off opinion as fact and some outright fraud like the guy who started the whole anti-vax thing in the first place. His name escapes me but the supposed autism link came from a study of something like 12 individuals, a laughably inadequate sample size and it was found that he had a financial incentive to discredit the vaccine in question.

One of the anti vax movement's primary spokespeople is a former Playboy model with absolutely zero medical or scientific background, education or qualifications, how does somebody like that become an authority on the matter?

[tooki]

Andrew Wakefield (formerly Dr. Andrew Wakefield), who basically invented the study results to further his financial interests in mercury-free vaccine somethingorother.

[Gyro]

The last I heard (a few months back) he was in the US, bending Trump's ear! 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=andrew+wakefield+trump&ia=web

[cdev]

Aren't we talking about heavy metals generally, especially lead (Pb)?

Here is the problem with lead exposure.. It causes all kinds of health problems, even in low amounts. So much so that reducing its presence in the environment brings substantial health benefits, which can be shown statistically. Ive been repeatedly told by scientists (toxicologists, several of whom I know) that "there is no safe level of lead".

Any toxicant that causes reactive oxygen species uses up a critical resource in the body, glutathione. The presence or lack of glutathione is very important, especially as we age. Its quite binary, at an instant in time exposure to a toxicant can either be quenched or not quenched. The presence of glutathione makes all the difference. If the free radical is not quenched the cell has to kill itself or there will be DNA damage. The cells can divide a finite number of times.. So your cells being exposed to toxic chemicals is additive over your life span, they all add up to do the same things. So they should be considered to be the same legally. the way we measure exposure levels is wrong, they should be additive.

Also, when a woman is pregnant, as cells are differentiating, the levels of ROS have to be very low, for her baby's cells  to properly differentiate. The developing fetus is very sensitive to reactive oxygen species generating toxicants.

Because of glutathione. This has been shown by feeding mothers additional n-acetyl-cysteine which modulates (reduces or eliminates) the toxic effects of many different toxicants - Their chemistry is completely different, but all cause pro oxidant effects on the body - and because of Fyn and c-Cbl- cause birth defects in unborn children.  Fyn and c-Cbl are two chemicals involved in low level signaling in the body - they regulate cell growth- we're very sensitive to changes that effect them.

Source -  "Chemically Diverse Toxicants Converge on Fyn and c-Cbl to Disrupt Precursor Cell Function"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790953/

If you are pregnant, plan on getting pregnant or older, I would take NAC supplements.

NAC also helps protect hearing.

To prevent sunburn, I have had the best luck with green tea extract, containing lots of EGCG.  (and l-theanine, an amino acid that seems to have positive effects on cognition and quality of sleep)

NAC is probably the best supplement that is widely available that I know of for radiation generally. If may be helpful to prevent adverse effects of high level RF exposure - I would be surprised if it wasnt, because of the glutathione connection..

NAC also reduces the short term death rate in animals from high doses of gamma radiation substantially - increasing the LD-50 by a fairly decent amount.

It would be a good thing to have if there was a nuclear accident or similar.

As far as NAC and lead? There is a fair amount of research on this and the big question they have been asking is does NAC "chelate" lead out of the body, increase excretion of Pb from the body in a way similar to DMSA or IV edta (the way people with lead poisoning are treated.)

I have no opinion - (and cant really comment not being qualified to..)

Its worth it to read pubmed - there is a fair amount of research on this and it doesn't seem conclusive to me on chelation, however, it does clearly ameliorate many of the other symptoms of innumerable kinds of intoxications - including lead, and does help the body get rid of toxic things, generally. A lot, because the body converts it into glutathione.

NAC is an amino acid so its food, there is no risk of it doing anything harmful (make sure you're taking N-Acetyl-Cysteine though, and not L-cysteine)

Another amino acid that may help is taurine.

Disclosure, ive been reading extensively on amino acids as functional foods for a long time and probably have read thousands of papers on various them, dating back 30+ years.

Also (this has nothing to do with glutathione) if you're concerned about ionizing radiation exposure from a nuclear accident or god forbid a nuclear war, keep everything in perspective. I think that the powers that be are deliberately downplaying the danger of nuclear war because they dont want to lessen the deterrent value of the threat of it, but the fact is, billions of people all around the world would die in even a small nuclear war from starvation due to dramatic increases in the price of food and a likely nuclear winter.

The risk is far higher of a nuclear accident or solar storm caused meltdown.. due to loss of the power grid..

[james_s]

Yes, obviously one should minimize their exposure to heavy metals, sure there is no "safe" level but that's a bit misleading. There's no "safe" level of exposure to ionizing radiation but that doesn't stop people from deliberately exposing themselves to UV laying on a beach or a tanning bed. Then there is even more penetrating forms of radiation like xrays, but that doesn't mean that one should never get something xrayed after weighing the benefits vs the risk. Nothing in life is truly *zero* risk but the risk is negligible. Eating a tuna sandwich means ingesting a small amount of mercury but that doesn't mean that a tuna sandwich is particularly bad for you or should be avoided.

At any rate we can all agree that eating/licking/chewing on solder is a bad idea and one should wash their hands well after handling it and avoid handling food at the same time.

[cdev]

Yes, obviously one should minimize their exposure to heavy metals, sure there is no "safe" level but that's a bit misleading. There's no "safe" level of exposure to ionizing radiation but that doesn't stop people from deliberately exposing themselves to UV laying on a beach or a tanning bed.

The two are additive, that's what I was trying to tell you. Antioxidants are protective in that situation (as of course, gradually working up to sun exposures, so your skin can adjust to the exposure.)

Then there is even more penetrating forms of radiation like xrays, but that doesn't mean that one should never get something xrayed after weighing the benefits vs the risk.

Taking antioxidants like NAC in moderation helps protect you. N-acetyl-cysteine is particularly useful because it converts into glutathione in the body. (Dairy is a good source of dietary cysteine) That's what I was trying to tell you. This isn't rocket science. Radiation causes cellular damage by creating reactive oxygen species. As does lead, as does UVA and UVB. Adequate levels of glutathione in your body reduce the damage. But exposure to hundreds of different chemicals uses the same store of glutathione up.

If you want to understand the core mechanisms behind the phenomena we have been discussing the best place to start is understanding "glutathione"

The risk is modulated by your glutathione status.  Low glutathione, high risk. High glutathione, lower risk.  This is one of the several reasons why everyone becomes more susceptible to cancer when they are exposed to toxic chemicals, and also glutathione levels in the body fall as we age.  Because of the Schiff reaction.

The more glutathione, the less apoptosis so that conserves cell division.

Look up "Hayflick limit"

Nothing in life is truly *zero* risk but the risk is negligible. Eating a tuna sandwich means ingesting a small amount of mercury but that doesn't mean that a tuna sandwich is particularly bad for you or should be avoided.

At any rate we can all agree that eating/licking/chewing on solder is a bad idea and one should wash their hands well after handling it and avoid handling food at the same time.