Fear of Lead

[TheOCDengineer]

Hi Everyone

I have a irrational fear of lead, more importantly lead soldering. It started after I worked in an electronic lab that the soldering was not well controlled and my lead blood level came back high. I since left that job and my levels returned to normal. Since then I have not been able to work on any electronics or wanted to do any soldering. Recently I started going to a pinball bar and have been having a good time playing the games. As a hobby I also shoot commericals for local businesses and decided to do one for the bar. When I went to go film it they were working on a boards and I just said sorry I have a fear of lead and could no longer do the video. Since then I have not be able to go back out of fear, has anyone had a similar experience or way to get over it?

[JacobPilsen]

Wash your hands after soldering.
Thread: Question About Soldering Technique

[sleemanj]

This is beyond simple worry about lead contact, you declined a job because *other* people were working on electronics.

You have an irrational fear, aka phobia, see a psychologist. 

[tautech]

Yes it's irrational and OTT.

From another era when plumbers worked with lead, at breaks they never ate the corner of the sandwich where they held it to minimise their intake of lead. Simple precautions like washing hands ............

[Old Printer]

I grew up as the third generation of the family printing business that dated to 1918. We used lead to make cast lines of printing type (Linotype). The controls associated with the lead processes were little to none. We were a very small shop, a few family members and fewer employees, and most of the disregard for the dangers of lead were just ignorance and lack of awareness at the time. By the time lead became such a well known hazard it had been pretty much phased out of the business. That said, my grandfather, grandmother, father, uncle and myself spent our lives surrounded by lead. We handled it daily, cut it, melted it, recast it and ate our lunch next to it. We all should have turned into a bunch of mad hatters by the time we were 30. The fact of it is that I am a very health 65 year old and the rest of my family lived into their mid 80's to 90 and died of the usual health related causes, heart disease, copd from smoking, or just old age. This is not to minimize the hazards of lead! It is very poisonous to developing children, and I am sure that some adults are very much affected by it. My family seemed pretty much immune to it, and we knew quite a few fellow printers that worked their lives in similar situations and I know of none that had any lead health related issues. Others may have greatly different experience, but from my personal experience where the exposure was primarily through the skin from handling lead, it has been a non-issue. I am aware that breathing vaporized lead is likely a different situation, but if reasonable caution is used I think the adult exposure to lead issue has been a bit overblown.

[SeanB]

Most exposure to lead comes from breathing the dust from cars that used TE lead in the fuel, and a lot more if you happen to live in Flint MI, where the elected council members should be forced to drink the water they said was safe exclusively, or from living near old mines and drinking groundwater. The lead exposure from soldering is so little that you probably are more likely to have an elevated level than from the actual soldering, unless you are one of those who use teeth to hold solder, and also chew gum at the same time, plus eat your meals at the bench using the solder blackened hands to eat with, washing your hands with the orange juice as well before drinking it.

Yes the lead fear is a phobia, especially as almost all solder these days is lead free as well, with the lead content being close to zero as well.

[Macbeth]

I am aware that breathing vaporized lead is likely a different situation, but if reasonable caution is used I think the adult exposure to lead issue has been a bit overblown.

Breathing any substance with a boiling point of 1749 °C would suggest you would be dead way before you even got to inhale this noxious heavy metal gas.

It's the flux that is considered poisonous. There is no lead in flux fumes.

The OP does state that the lead fear is irrational. I can only suggest CBT techniques to overcome the utterly bizarre fear. This should be an easier phobia to overcome compared to more common ones like Arachnophobia, Agorophobia, Islamophobia  ...

[IanMacdonald]

You can always use lead free solder. Just don't expect as good a joint! Although, vintage gear like pin tables will have leaded solder, and you cannot mix the two. (Doing so gives even worse results than the lead-free variety on its own)

I think we need to keep these things in perspective. There is a whole industry centered around hyping 'pollution' risks completely out of proportion. For example, many medical facilities are no longer allowed to use mercury thermometers because if anyone were to drop one on the floor they would literally have to call out a response team in hazmat suits to 'decontaminate' the place. Which, is a crazy overreaction. Mercury is somewhat toxic, but not THAT toxic.

Most 'heavy metals' are moderately toxic if ingested, but some commonsense needs to be applied over this. The main risk is from inhaling vapour or ingesting soluble salts, the metallic form of most being relatively insoluble.  Mercury gives off vapour at temperatures not much above room temp, but lead's boiling point of 1749 °C is too high  for any significant vapour to be released at soldering temperatures of 300 °C  or so.

In the era of top hats, hatters were using mercury vapour (in the open air of the room) to put a sheen on the cloth. When you think about the levels they were exposing themselves to, it's hardly surprising they developed brain damage. 

The Romans actually used a lead salt to sweeten wine.    Seemingly they didn't know of lead's toxicity, or that soluble salts are the most poisonous form of the substance.  It's fairly obvious that they didn't drop down like flies from drinking it, or else the connection would have been made and the practice stopped. Though, it has been suggested that some of the behaviours shown by Roman emperors was symptomatic of lead poisoning. I think this underlines the fact that it IS toxic, but that minute levels are not going to be an issue.

Victorian houses used lead plumbing, as did the Romans. Seemingly this doesn't present any health risk so long as the water isn't acidic.

As for soldering, these days I'm careful not to lick my fingers or handle food without washing my hands first. I think that's sensible. I also use a fume extractor, but that's mainly because I'm sensitive to the rosin smoke. I use leaded solder unless I'm repairing kit that has lead-free in it.

HTH.

[bson]

There are no lead fumes from soldering, but flux, solvents, paints, and such may exist and become volatile - and definitely should not be inhaled so ventilation is a good idea.  Most irritants are also removable with an activated carbon filter and a small Hakko tabletop fan-filter works fine from personal experience.  (They're irritants because they sticky and reactive.  Even a plain air filter would probably remove them.) I always wipe clean PCBs with 99.9% IPA before soldering or pasting - a good habit that never hurts and at the absolute worst makes no difference.

Other than that, wash your hands, and not just because of lead concerns... it's simply a good habit.

Lead paint is a problem because many lead based paint pigments taste sweet causing children to eat it - and many of the pigment alloys are also highly bioavailable.  (Unlike pure solid or liquid lead, or mixed with tin.)

[rhb]

There is a minor amount of lead vapor from soldering . The vapor pressure of lead at the melting point  of traditional solder is small, but non-zero.  Everything else is a greater hazard.

The main thing is simply wash your hands before eating.  I'm amused when I see people using hand sanitiizer before eating instead of washing as it does not remove anything.  All it does is kill bacteria.  It's not a substitute for washing your hands.  I *never* eat without washing my hands unless I am unable to wash. In which case I make sure I don't touch the food.

I routinely clean the steering wheel and gearshift lever in my pickup.  I have to handle weed killer and various other toxic substances.  I wear nitirile gloves, but I sweat so much that I could never notice a splash of weed killer.  Every time I raise my hand above my elbow, sweat runs down my arm.  So I assume that the truck controls are contaminated.

I am certain that the OP's prior experience was the result of not paying  attention to what had been touched.  If the OP makes a point of always being aware of what has been touched since the last hand washing, the fear will go away.  I grew up in a restaurant.  When I am cooking, I wash my hands every few minutes with soap and water.  It's reflexive.  I do the same if I am handling potentially dangerous materials whether I have definite knowledge or just suspect a hazard..  Washing your hands is cheap, easy and a very valuable protection against accidental poisoning.

[mrpackethead]

I like to put a good dollop of lead based solder paste on my toast in the morning, as a butter substitute..   Its better for you than collestrol.

[hermit]

I worked in an electronic lab that the soldering was not well controlled and my lead blood level came back high.

You earned the right to your 'irrational' fear.    But no one is going to be able to use logic to convince you because by definition, irrational is irrational.

[BrianHG]

It started after I worked in an electronic lab that the soldering was not well controlled and my lead blood level came back high.

If it was a fluke lemon test at the time, there is nothing we can say which would get rid of that fear completely.
However, if the elevated lead at the time didn't actually come from you electronics work, you may still have access to a real problem.  What if that high lead level actually came from contaminated food or water?  Are you still occasionally being exposed?  Is anyone else in your family being exposed too?

I would say, find out which test was used on your blood and what it's accuracy is.  Some tests may give false positives.
Get yourself re-tested again.

Now, if you soldered in the past and without washing your hands, also ate snacks at the same time, this is a bad idea.

[james_s]

Since you acknowledge that the fear is irrational, I suggest seeing a mental health professional rather than an engineering forum. We can tell you the rational answer that there is no need to fear lead, simply don't eat solder and wash your hands well after handling it. If you are really paranoid wear latex gloves and remove them before touching your face, handling food, etc. It won't make any difference hearing a rational answer though as long as you have an irrational fear. We probably can't help you with that.

[mrpackethead]

Since you acknowledge that the fear is irrational, I suggest seeing a mental health professional rather than an engineering forum. We can tell you the rational answer that there is no need to fear lead, simply don't eat solder and wash your hands well after handling it. If you are really paranoid wear latex gloves and remove them before touching your face, handling food, etc. It won't make any difference hearing a rational answer though as long as you have an irrational fear. We probably can't help you with that.

Engineers can fix anythign buddy. Lead phobias and all.      Eating lead solder is yummy.   You can use it were you would have used sauce..   You need to find a flux that you like though. some of them are a bit odd.  It works well with chicken.
me thinks this is not a real thread, but if it is, i'm sorry in advance.

[Flappy]

If your soldering iron is hot enough to boil the lead and produce lead fumes, you've probably got the temperature too high. 

[Richard Crowley]

The boiling point of lead is 1749 °C (3180 °F). A soldering iron that hot will burn your hand off.
It seems unlikely that any kind of logical, scientific evidence can compete with an irrational phobia.

[ivaylo]

Yeah, irrational. Can't beat Old Printer's story, but grew up in a thirs world country where kids used to melt lead from car batteries for fun and profit. All childhood friends grew up healthy, got kids and everything. Last feat in lead melting was at 20 when had to cast free diving weights. Still have them somewhere...

[ebastler]

grew up in a thirs world country where kids used to melt lead from car batteries for fun and profit.

We did that as part of our school curriculum, during handicraft lessons -- Germany, 1975 or so. Casting lead from car batteries into bars, weighing and stamping them, making our own creative molds from plaster, and casting lead parts. Great fun! I don't recall whether we were asked to wash hands afterwards...

I assume this has been removed from the curriculum in the meantime. Open flames, molten metal, lead... At least nothing could explode!   
Well, unless you were impatient and had too much water left in your plaster mold. 

[abraxa]

It started after I worked in an electronic lab that the soldering was not well controlled and my lead blood level came back high. I since left that job and my levels returned to normal. Since then I have not been able to work on any electronics or wanted to do any soldering.

Please do keep in mind that correlation does not imply causation. It is not unlikely that it was actually the building that elevated your lead blood levels - be it either the lab building or your own home: https://www.epa.gov/lead/protect-your-family-exposures-lead#older
Maybe you moved at around the same time you stopped working at the lab and thus were no longer exposed to the source of lead at home? Lots of possibilities here.
My point is that you're making a connection where it's unlikely that there is one.

[Zero999]

The OP does state that the lead fear is irrational. I can only suggest CBT techniques to overcome the utterly bizarre fear. This should be an easier phobia to overcome compared to more common ones like Arachnophobia, Agorophobia, Islamophobia  ...

Why do you think a phobia of lead will be easier to overcome than any other phobia? I don't see how it would be any easier or more difficult to overcome.

[rhb]

My sister was living in the Puget Sound area.  She didn't feel well and went to see her doctorr.  After a brief investigation he discovered she was suffering from arsenic poisoning.  Lots of questions were asked about the possible source of the arsenic but there were none they could find.  This led to questions about her husband.

As it turned out, she had gone to the annual crab feed at her son's house.  He would collect crab all year from his crab pots for which he had permits held by those attending.  His house is on the water so it was easy for him to check the crab pots.  My sister had eaten 6-7 entire crabs.  As it happens, the water in Puget Sound has a high arsenic level from the mineralogy of the rocks in the area.  She had unknowingly poisoned herself by eating so many.

[Alex Eisenhut]

I spend hours every few weeks holding pure lead. I go to the air pistol range with .177 pellets. When will I die?

Before or after my telomeres unravel and my cells fall apart by themselves?

[Mechatrommer]

i consumed sugar and sugar level in my blood went high, so i feared sugar. when i got feared, my adrenaline went high, so i fear fear, so i tried to not fear, now i dont fear sugar anymore...

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you spend a lot of time soldering, leaded solder is better for you than leadfree as leadfree needs more aggressive fluxes with nastier fumes.
 

[woodchips]

I hope you don't go shotgun shooting!

Each cartridge has 1oz of lead in it, and being expelled at a high rate of knots when fired some must be turned into dust. Yet the EU are quite happy to let tonnes of lead be blasted over the countryside but my 200g in the 60/40 solder, which lasts me for years, is banned. No, I don't understand it either.

[tautech]

I hope you don't go shotgun shooting!

Each cartridge has 1oz of lead in it, and being expelled at a high rate of knots when fired some must be turned into dust. Yet the EU are quite happy to let tonnes of lead be blasted over the countryside but my 200g in the 60/40 solder, which lasts me for years, is banned. No, I don't understand it either.

Here and in many other places on the world lead is now banned for gamebird shooting close to water to minimise lead shot in shallow waters where ducks etc feed. Trouble is most other substitutes are ballistically inferior and more wounding results but on the other hand wounded birds don't have lead pellets in them that initiate lead poisoning. Damned if you do and damned of you don't situation.
AFAIK some parts of Europe have now banned the use of lead cored projectiles for game hunting and the industry is now having to learn how to use solid copper projectiles to satisfy these new regs.
Like any industry it's constantly evolving.

[woodchips]

And how does anyone know that tin shot is being used?

Easy solution, use gold shot!

There is tungsten of course.

[hermit]

And how does anyone know that tin shot is being used?

Easy solution, use gold shot!

There is tungsten of course.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2013/10/non-toxic-shot-bismuth-back

[trys]

Since then I have not be able to go back out of fear, has anyone had a similar experience or way to get over it?

It's good that you recognize it as being an irrational fear, and you want to get over it and reaching out for help in how to get over it.

With many phobias these are the key steps to get over them. It's taken you some courage for you to make your post and reaching out about it - so you must be applauded.

There are support groups to help people overcome anxieties, it may be helpful to see if there are any near where you are. You can then be in an environment of support and amongst people who understand the anxieties that you feel even though the causes of the fears (or rather the triggers for these fears) are different. In your differences you will find similarities in coping mechanisms that you can explore.

It could also be useful to make a note of some the responses above about lead in solder to take with you, it might give you some ideas that will help rationalize how you can be safe in such situations.

Your doctor also may agree to additional checks for your lead level in blood if you do feel that you have a sustained occupational risk.

All the best - don't despair.

Trys

[stj]

just get cotton gloves or use lead-free.

as for mercury, it's only toxic if you touch, consume or breath it.
it's perfectly safe to inject into your body in large amounts.
is that sarcasm? no it's the official line from satanic pharmacutical pushers!!!
 

[cdev]

N-acetylcysteine is a precursor of glutathione and may be helpful in helping the body shed lead and numerous other bad things.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=acetylcysteine+plumbism

Hi Everyone

I have a irrational fear of lead, more importantly lead soldering. It started after I worked in an electronic lab that the soldering was not well controlled and my lead blood level came back high. I since left that job and my levels returned to normal. Since then I have not been able to work on any electronics or wanted to do any soldering. Recently I started going to a pinball bar and have been having a good time playing the games. As a hobby I also shoot commericals for local businesses and decided to do one for the bar. When I went to go film it they were working on a boards and I just said sorry I have a fear of lead and could no longer do the video. Since then I have not be able to go back out of fear, has anyone had a similar experience or way to get over it?

[james_s]

just get cotton gloves or use lead-free.

as for mercury, it's only toxic if you touch, consume or breath it.
it's perfectly safe to inject into your body in large amounts.
is that sarcasm? no it's the official line from satanic pharmacutical pushers!!!
 

What are you even going on about? Nobody is injecting large amounts of mercury into anyone's bodies.

By far the largest exposure to mercury for most people comes from eating seafood.

[stj]

i think you should read some vaxxine ingredient lists!!! 

[Electro Detective]

Rubber and or cotton gloves,

'magic hands' clamp thingies (or whatever they are called) and anything that clamps, clips and holds stuff down to be soddered/soldered (extra hand/s)

magnifying visor headset or protective clear plastic glasses

a simple fan arrangement to pull the fumes away from your face and lungs

should soon sort out any lead phobia, and get a lot of work done safely 

All the above is CHEAP    fits in a plastic shopping bag, and ready for work anywhere   

[Monkeh]

I hope you don't go shotgun shooting!

Each cartridge has 1oz of lead in it, and being expelled at a high rate of knots when fired some must be turned into dust.

Birdshot is mostly steel these days..

my 200g in the 60/40 solder, which lasts me for years, is banned.

It is? Shit! Better tell everyone selling and using it.

Hint: It's not banned.

[Electro Detective]

It's not banned? 

and here I was thinking "the last of the 60/40 sodder/solder pirates sailing the high pcbeez..."     

I would suggest stocking up on some for future use, you never know what 'law' the govtardment will pull out
of their ass to line their pockets... with 'under the table sneaky deal' commissions

[james_s]

i think you should read some vaxxine ingredient lists!!! 

 

Most vaccines contain no mercury at all, and those that do contain negligible amounts. You'd get more mercury by eating a can of tuna fish than by getting a vaccine, not that it matters what the actual data is. The whole anti-vax thing is a moronic religious belief not based on any sort of scientific fact or data in the first place.

Yes, tuna contains mercury. Apples contain cyanide amongst other scary sounding chemicals, like the mercury in certain vaccines the amount of cyanide in an apple is negligible.

Now if you'd like to refute any of this, please provide hard data from a reputable peer reviewed source, blogs don't count.

[stj]

most do contain it and the ammount is not negligable - it's way over the defined amount that classes something as hazmat waste that cant be generally desposed of!!!

[james_s]

most do contain it and the ammount is not negligable - it's way over the defined amount that classes something as hazmat waste that cant be generally desposed of!!!

Data and sources please?

IMHO you're talking out your ass. You've made wild claims with absolutely nothing to back it up.

[hermit]

The whole anti-vax thing is a moronic religious belief not based on any sort of scientific fact or data in the first place.

Well, there are other self serving reasons.  Robert Di Niro wants to blame the vaccine and ignore that as men age the risk of having an autistic child increases.  Genetics is also suspected.  You can see that parents might cling to something to relieve them of the 'blame' for the child being autistic.  The older you get, both mother and father, the risk goes up to the baby.

[jpanhalt]

Here is a discussion of Merthiolate  (thiomersal) in vaccines by the US FDA : https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228  The following comments are based on that report and other generally available information, such as "normal" blood levels.

Most vaccines and especially childhood vaccines do not contain an thiomersal.

Those that do are for multiple dosing from a single vial, which keeps costs down without compromising safety.   Moreover, the organic mercury in thiomersal is converted to ethyl mercury, which is excreted rapidly unchanged.   Methyl mercury (as in fish) is much more toxic. 

A single does of a vaccine containing thiomersal will have about 12 ug of mercury equivalent.   If that is distributed in the usual adult blood volume of 5 L, the concentration the maximum concentration would be 2.4 ng/ml disregarding concurrent elimination.   Normal safe level for adults is considered to be  ?10 ng/ml.  Reports claim that dentists exposed to amalgam can have levels of mercury of 15 ng/ml without symptoms of toxicity.   

[Zero999]

Here is a discussion of Merthiolate  (thiomersal) in vaccines by the US FDA : https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228  The following comments are based on that report and other generally available information, such as "normal" blood levels.

Most vaccines and especially childhood vaccines do not contain an thiomersal.

Those that do are for multiple dosing from a single vial, which keeps costs down without compromising safety.   Moreover, the organic mercury in thiomersal is converted to ethyl mercury, which is excreted rapidly unchanged.   Methyl mercury (as in fish) is much more toxic. 

A single does of a vaccine containing thiomersal will have about 12 ug of mercury equivalent.   If that is distributed in the usual adult blood volume of 5 L, the concentration the maximum concentration would be 2.4 ng/ml disregarding concurrent elimination.   Normal safe level for adults is considered to be  ?10 ng/ml.  Reports claim that dentists exposed to amalgam can have levels of mercury of 15 ng/ml without symptoms of toxicity.

I suppose, having a vaccine is also a single exposure event. It isn't the same as being continuously exposed to mercury.

[Gyro]

I've just been reading the story of Tetraethyl Lead in petrol on the BBC news site (don't know why it popped up again today)...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40593353

It certainly puts contact with a bit of solid metalic lead and then washing your hands into true perspective... Hard to believe that it was such a transparently crooked deal from the start! GM funding the government safety research, with a clause allowing them to approve the result. Ensuring that it was patentable (vs ethyl alcohol) etc.

Interesting bits about 'the loony gas building' and 'the house of butterflies' Petrochemical Lead labs and the correlation between its banning and the fall in violent crime.

I can't believe now that I spent so much of my earlier life breathing the stuff in! 


P.S. Midgley's other contribution to modern civilization was, of course, the introduction of CFCs for refrigration. A true hero of our times! 

[TheOCDengineer]

Thanks for all the replies. Some of the comments were good, while others devolved into conspiracy and "Machoness". I guess my problem lead is that my levels where high and then by removing the soldering it went back to "normal". I have been doing some research and the mean level for adults is 1.2 ug/dL, anything above 2 ug/dL has some measurable cognitive effects. Pre-industrial humans lead blood level is estimated at 0.016 ug/dL. I know from my Nano-technology background that fast melted metal tends to sputter some into small droplets and thus I always assumed that there is a small coating of dust on the boards and area where solder work was performed. In the end I guess I am always chasing the smaller number as we don't really know what normal is. 

[tooki]

Most exposure to lead comes from breathing the dust from cars that used TE lead in the fuel

Actually, I’ve always heard that the primary source of lead in chronic lead poisoning is lead paint in old buildings, not leaded fuel emissions.

I know from my Nano-technology background that fast melted metal tends to sputter some into small droplets and thus I always assumed that there is a small coating of dust on the boards and area where solder work was performed.

Washing your hands after working on it (for sure, before eating), and avoiding contaminating your food is all you need to consider. And don’t lick the circuit boards.

In the end I guess I am always chasing the smaller number as we don't really know what normal is. 

But you must be reasonable in it. Don’t let it remain an obsession. I strongly agree with the suggestions to see a therapist. Try to find someone who employs CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy).

[jpanhalt]

Thanks for all the replies. Some of the comments were good, while others devolved into conspiracy and "Machoness". I guess my problem lead is that my levels where high and then by removing the soldering it went back to "normal". I have been doing some research and the mean level for adults is 1.2 ug/dL, anything above 2 ug/dL has some measurable cognitive effects. Pre-industrial humans lead blood level is estimated at 0.016 ug/dL. I know from my Nano-technology background that fast melted metal tends to sputter some into small droplets and thus I always assumed that there is a small coating of dust on the boards and area where solder work was performed. In the end I guess I am always chasing the smaller number as we don't really know what normal is.

Please cite your sources.   Here is the current CDC recommendation:

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/acclpp/blood_lead_levels.htm

What has not changed is the recommendation for when medical treatment is advised for children with high blood lead levels. The new recommendation does not change the guidance that chelation therapy be considered when a child has a blood lead test result greater than or equal to 45 micrograms per deciliter.

NOTE: That is for children.   Levels causing any "cognitive" effects for adults would be much higher.  Of course, the subject's mental status and hysteria may make detecting true effects less reliable.

As for your personal experience, blood lead measurements are one of the more challenging laboratory tests, not in the lab per se, but in collection of the specimen.   Special "lead free" collection tubes must be used (What was the color of the rubber stopper in the tube used to collect your blood?), and careful decontamination of the subject's skin must be performed.  Unless both are done properly, erroneous results will be obtained.  Lead is everywhere in the environment.   The apparently rapid resolution of your "high" blood lead makes me wonder whether the original results were spurious.

[Gyro]

Most exposure to lead comes from breathing the dust from cars that used TE lead in the fuel

Actually, I’ve always heard that the primary source of lead in chronic lead poisoning is lead paint in old buildings, not leaded fuel emissions.

Only if you're in the habit of chewing old paintwork - or stripping it.

[tooki]

Most exposure to lead comes from breathing the dust from cars that used TE lead in the fuel

Actually, I’ve always heard that the primary source of lead in chronic lead poisoning is lead paint in old buildings, not leaded fuel emissions.

Only if you're in the habit of chewing old paintwork - or stripping it.

This is no laughing matter, and you’re wrong.

Remember who the primary victims of chronic lead poisoning are: children.

What happens is that kids who live in old houses, with chipping paint, play on the floor, paint dust gets on their hands, and they put their hands in their mouths. And of course small kids put everything they find in their mouths, including paint chips. And dust gets inhaled. And in case you wonder “well why don’t their parents fix the chipping paint?”, well, it should come as no surprise that lead poisoning afflicts almost exclusively the poor, who tend to live in older houses that they cannot afford to remediate (or whose slumlord landlords neglect).

Regardless, the statement wasn’t one of who gets lead poisoning, but rather which avenues of exposure are the most common cumulatively. And that is lead paint, not lead fuel residues.

[Paul Price]

Midgley had his karma problems.

Later, in his middle age he contracted polio and was partially paralyzed. Inventor of lead-tetraethyl and CFC refrigerents, he also invented a system of pulleys to lift his diseased body out of his bed. He was accidentally strangled by this device.

[helius]

Midgley had his karma problems.

Later, in his middle age he contracted polio and was partially paralyzed. Inventor of lead-tetraethyl and CFC refrigerents, he also invented a system of pulleys to lift his diseased body out of his bed. He was accidentally strangled by this device.

A sad story.
However, that has nothing to do with the Eastern mystical concept of karma, which has been badly misconstrued.
Anyway, CFCs were a significant step forward from the existing refrigerants (sulfur dioxide, methyl chloride, or ammonia), which caused numerous poisoning deaths from leaking domestic refrigerators.

[james_s]

CFCs worked very well and seemed to be practically ideal. Nobody knew they would harm the ozone layer until it happened.

If they had only been used as a refrigerant it probably wouldn't even have been a problem, but they were used *everywhere* as a propellant in aerosol cans of all types, and refrigeration techs would routinely just vent the charge to work on the system.

[chriswebb]

Here is a discussion of Merthiolate  (thiomersal) in vaccines by the US FDA : https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228  The following comments are based on that report and other generally available information, such as "normal" blood levels.

Most vaccines and especially childhood vaccines do not contain an thiomersal.

Those that do are for multiple dosing from a single vial, which keeps costs down without compromising safety.   Moreover, the organic mercury in thiomersal is converted to ethyl mercury, which is excreted rapidly unchanged.   Methyl mercury (as in fish) is much more toxic. 

A single does of a vaccine containing thiomersal will have about 12 ug of mercury equivalent.   If that is distributed in the usual adult blood volume of 5 L, the concentration the maximum concentration would be 2.4 ng/ml disregarding concurrent elimination.   Normal safe level for adults is considered to be  ?10 ng/ml.  Reports claim that dentists exposed to amalgam can have levels of mercury of 15 ng/ml without symptoms of toxicity.

And where is this anti-vaccine guy now? Too bad they won't try and actually educate themselves on the subject. You know because they clearly are very rational.

Also as far as this discussion is concerned. According to http://yarchive.net/space/metals_vapor_pressures.html the vapor pressure for Pb at melting point is 3x10^-9 torr or 0.4 micropascals.  So very neglible.

[james_s]

And where is this anti-vaccine guy now? Too bad they won't try and actually educate themselves on the subject. You know because they clearly are very rational.

Also as far as this discussion is concerned. According to http://yarchive.net/space/metals_vapor_pressures.html the vapor pressure for Pb at melting point is 3x10^-9 torr or 0.4 micropascals.  So very neglible.

Of course they won't, when pressed for data they can't provide it because it doesn't exist. The anti-vax thing is a religious belief, I don't mean that in the sense of god or the supernatural, but rather like conventional religion it is an emotional belief relying on blind faith rather than facts and evidence. Instead of simply calling it faith, people who believe vaccines are harmful actively engage in confirmation bias seeking out pseudo-scientific information that supports their existing belief and ignoring anything that doesn't. Almost all of the supporting information comes from the same sources, a combination of other like minded people passing off opinion as fact and some outright fraud like the guy who started the whole anti-vax thing in the first place. His name escapes me but the supposed autism link came from a study of something like 12 individuals, a laughably inadequate sample size and it was found that he had a financial incentive to discredit the vaccine in question.

One of the anti vax movement's primary spokespeople is a former Playboy model with absolutely zero medical or scientific background, education or qualifications, how does somebody like that become an authority on the matter?

[tooki]

Andrew Wakefield (formerly Dr. Andrew Wakefield), who basically invented the study results to further his financial interests in mercury-free vaccine somethingorother.

[Gyro]

The last I heard (a few months back) he was in the US, bending Trump's ear! 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=andrew+wakefield+trump&ia=web

[cdev]

Aren't we talking about heavy metals generally, especially lead (Pb)?

Here is the problem with lead exposure.. It causes all kinds of health problems, even in low amounts. So much so that reducing its presence in the environment brings substantial health benefits, which can be shown statistically. Ive been repeatedly told by scientists (toxicologists, several of whom I know) that "there is no safe level of lead".

Any toxicant that causes reactive oxygen species uses up a critical resource in the body, glutathione. The presence or lack of glutathione is very important, especially as we age. Its quite binary, at an instant in time exposure to a toxicant can either be quenched or not quenched. The presence of glutathione makes all the difference. If the free radical is not quenched the cell has to kill itself or there will be DNA damage. The cells can divide a finite number of times.. So your cells being exposed to toxic chemicals is additive over your life span, they all add up to do the same things. So they should be considered to be the same legally. the way we measure exposure levels is wrong, they should be additive.

Also, when a woman is pregnant, as cells are differentiating, the levels of ROS have to be very low, for her baby's cells  to properly differentiate. The developing fetus is very sensitive to reactive oxygen species generating toxicants.

Because of glutathione. This has been shown by feeding mothers additional n-acetyl-cysteine which modulates (reduces or eliminates) the toxic effects of many different toxicants - Their chemistry is completely different, but all cause pro oxidant effects on the body - and because of Fyn and c-Cbl- cause birth defects in unborn children.  Fyn and c-Cbl are two chemicals involved in low level signaling in the body - they regulate cell growth- we're very sensitive to changes that effect them.

Source -  "Chemically Diverse Toxicants Converge on Fyn and c-Cbl to Disrupt Precursor Cell Function"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790953/

If you are pregnant, plan on getting pregnant or older, I would take NAC supplements.

NAC also helps protect hearing.

To prevent sunburn, I have had the best luck with green tea extract, containing lots of EGCG.  (and l-theanine, an amino acid that seems to have positive effects on cognition and quality of sleep)

NAC is probably the best supplement that is widely available that I know of for radiation generally. If may be helpful to prevent adverse effects of high level RF exposure - I would be surprised if it wasnt, because of the glutathione connection..

NAC also reduces the short term death rate in animals from high doses of gamma radiation substantially - increasing the LD-50 by a fairly decent amount.

It would be a good thing to have if there was a nuclear accident or similar.

As far as NAC and lead? There is a fair amount of research on this and the big question they have been asking is does NAC "chelate" lead out of the body, increase excretion of Pb from the body in a way similar to DMSA or IV edta (the way people with lead poisoning are treated.)

I have no opinion - (and cant really comment not being qualified to..)

Its worth it to read pubmed - there is a fair amount of research on this and it doesn't seem conclusive to me on chelation, however, it does clearly ameliorate many of the other symptoms of innumerable kinds of intoxications - including lead, and does help the body get rid of toxic things, generally. A lot, because the body converts it into glutathione.

NAC is an amino acid so its food, there is no risk of it doing anything harmful (make sure you're taking N-Acetyl-Cysteine though, and not L-cysteine)

Another amino acid that may help is taurine.

Disclosure, ive been reading extensively on amino acids as functional foods for a long time and probably have read thousands of papers on various them, dating back 30+ years.

Also (this has nothing to do with glutathione) if you're concerned about ionizing radiation exposure from a nuclear accident or god forbid a nuclear war, keep everything in perspective. I think that the powers that be are deliberately downplaying the danger of nuclear war because they dont want to lessen the deterrent value of the threat of it, but the fact is, billions of people all around the world would die in even a small nuclear war from starvation due to dramatic increases in the price of food and a likely nuclear winter.

The risk is far higher of a nuclear accident or solar storm caused meltdown.. due to loss of the power grid..

[james_s]

Yes, obviously one should minimize their exposure to heavy metals, sure there is no "safe" level but that's a bit misleading. There's no "safe" level of exposure to ionizing radiation but that doesn't stop people from deliberately exposing themselves to UV laying on a beach or a tanning bed. Then there is even more penetrating forms of radiation like xrays, but that doesn't mean that one should never get something xrayed after weighing the benefits vs the risk. Nothing in life is truly *zero* risk but the risk is negligible. Eating a tuna sandwich means ingesting a small amount of mercury but that doesn't mean that a tuna sandwich is particularly bad for you or should be avoided.

At any rate we can all agree that eating/licking/chewing on solder is a bad idea and one should wash their hands well after handling it and avoid handling food at the same time.

[cdev]

Yes, obviously one should minimize their exposure to heavy metals, sure there is no "safe" level but that's a bit misleading. There's no "safe" level of exposure to ionizing radiation but that doesn't stop people from deliberately exposing themselves to UV laying on a beach or a tanning bed.

The two are additive, that's what I was trying to tell you. Antioxidants are protective in that situation (as of course, gradually working up to sun exposures, so your skin can adjust to the exposure.)

Then there is even more penetrating forms of radiation like xrays, but that doesn't mean that one should never get something xrayed after weighing the benefits vs the risk.

Taking antioxidants like NAC in moderation helps protect you. N-acetyl-cysteine is particularly useful because it converts into glutathione in the body. (Dairy is a good source of dietary cysteine) That's what I was trying to tell you. This isn't rocket science. Radiation causes cellular damage by creating reactive oxygen species. As does lead, as does UVA and UVB. Adequate levels of glutathione in your body reduce the damage. But exposure to hundreds of different chemicals uses the same store of glutathione up.

If you want to understand the core mechanisms behind the phenomena we have been discussing the best place to start is understanding "glutathione"

The risk is modulated by your glutathione status.  Low glutathione, high risk. High glutathione, lower risk.  This is one of the several reasons why everyone becomes more susceptible to cancer when they are exposed to toxic chemicals, and also glutathione levels in the body fall as we age.  Because of the Schiff reaction.

The more glutathione, the less apoptosis so that conserves cell division.

Look up "Hayflick limit"

Nothing in life is truly *zero* risk but the risk is negligible. Eating a tuna sandwich means ingesting a small amount of mercury but that doesn't mean that a tuna sandwich is particularly bad for you or should be avoided.

At any rate we can all agree that eating/licking/chewing on solder is a bad idea and one should wash their hands well after handling it and avoid handling food at the same time.