Author Topic: First time gear  (Read 10793 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline testtube44Topic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 47
  • Country: us
First time gear
« on: September 12, 2017, 02:49:20 am »
I would like to know; what are the best, most reliable, and functional of the following tools for these prices?

Oscilloscope for under $300
Multimeter for under $150
Function generator for under $150
Soldering iron for under $150
...



This is my first time buying equipment, I am just beginning in electronics/electricity.
+ Is it miss-guided of me to think that a function generator merged with a power supply is a good idea?

« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 02:52:44 am by testtube44 »
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11260
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: First time gear
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2017, 03:44:07 am »
Oscilloscope for under $300
Redistribute the money from overpriced mult-meter and underpriced function generator and get Rigol DS1054Z.

Multimeter for under $150
Some cheap Uni-T or even Harbor freight special will do. They are perfectly fine for beginner use.

I use UNI-T UT136B ($16) in my day to day life, and very rarely I see the need for higher-end meter. In the beginner situation, it will be more than enough. They are nice and compact and do everything multimeter should do.

Function generator for under $150
You either need a lot more money, or get one of those $80 eBay cheapies. They have decent parameters, but horrific UI. This is something you will have to deal with, if you don't want to pay $300.

Soldering iron for under $150
Hakko fx-888d.

+ Is it miss-guided of me to think that a function generator merged with a power supply is a good idea?
Can you even find a thing like that? It is probably a bad idea, since devices have substantially different functions.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 03:47:29 am by ataradov »
Alex
 
The following users thanked this post: agehall, lacek

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: First time gear
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2017, 03:55:48 am »
Redistribute the money from overpriced mult-meter and underpriced function generator and get Rigol DS1054Z.

Multimeter for under $150
Some cheap Uni-T or even Harbor freight special will do. They are perfectly fine for beginner use.

I use UNI-T UT136B ($16) in my day to day life, and very rarely I see the need for higher-end meter. In the beginner situation, it will be more than enough. They are nice and compact and do everything multimeter should do.

Function generator for under $150
You either need a lot more money, or get one of those $80 eBay cheapies. They have decent parameters, but horrific UI. This is something you will have to deal with, if you don't want to pay $300.

Soldering iron for under $150
Hakko fx-888d.

+ Is it miss-guided of me to think that a function generator merged with a power supply is a good idea?
Can you even find a thing like that? It is probably a bad idea, since devices have substantially different functions.
It has to be stressed that cheap multimeters only suffice for low voltage work. Imaginary CAT ratings might not cause issues, but may very well.
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11260
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: First time gear
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2017, 03:58:40 am »
It has to be stressed that cheap multimeters only suffice for low voltage work. Imaginary CAT ratings might not cause issues, but may very well.
That is true. But if you are a beginner and trying to work with high voltages without full understanding of what you are doing - Darwin Award awaits.

And those Uni-T meters are reasonably build, so that I personally would trust them 100% for household use. Not so much for HF ones.
Alex
 

Offline tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28380
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: First time gear
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2017, 04:01:16 am »
Welcome to the forum.

There's lots of options but with the budget you've indicated let's try and suggest the best value of $.
DMM, it's hard to beat Dave's if you want something certified and safe:
https://www.eevblog.com/product/bm235-multimeter/

DSO, I've sold a lot of SDS1102CML+, yes it's just over your indicated spend @ 319 but you might find one on Amazon a wee bit cheaper. Memory depth @ 2 Mpts is considered the minimum you'd want.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=27&T=2&tid=1

FG/AWG, you won't get anything other than very basic for less than 150, ideally 2 channels are best but I think we all started with a single channel unit. WRT PSU/FG combo, the Siglent AWG's allow for LV DC output at small currents that can supply projects, short circuit protected too.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/pd.aspx?tid=16&T=1

Soldering Iron, it won't be long until you dabble in SMD so I'd suggest a cheap rework station with hot air too.
Handy for all manner of things beside SMD. One that takes the cheap 900M Hakko tips are widely considered good value.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Online macboy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2256
  • Country: ca
Re: First time gear
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2017, 05:07:11 pm »
I agree with others here about the multimeter, spending $150 is entirely unnecessary for a first meter. Two inexpensive meters will serve you much better overall, and save budget for something else. There will be times when you need to monitor two voltages, or a voltage and a current, and will need two meters. Comparing the readings on 2+ meters is a good sanity check; if they agree, chances are it's because both are still working, as opposed to both simultaneously failing or drifting the exact same way. The second one doesn't need to be as good as the first, just good enough for a simple second measurement. Just don't use cheap meters on high energy circuits. There's a big thread on the AN8008 on the front page. Two of those might be a good start, with a third better meter in the future when you find a need for it.

If you can combine the scope and function gen budget, and stretch it a bit, then you can get a decent 4 channel scope with plenty of bandwidth and a built in 2 channel 25 MHz function and arbitrary waveform generator for $660 (Rigol DS-1074Z-S), probably less with the EEVBlog discount at Tequipment. You won't find separate new comparable instruments for that money. The capabilities are probably beyond what you think you need right now, but you might be surprised how fast you grow into them, or how fast you'll outgrow marginally adequate instruments.

For soldering, there are plenty of combined soldering and hot air stations that can get you started. Most use a knock-off of a Hakko style soldering iron, and will accept real Hakko tips when you realize that the knock off tips are junk, and want to upgrade the performance of the iron.   ::)   I have no specific model in mind.
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19509
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: First time gear
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2017, 05:32:23 pm »
I would like to know; what are the best, most reliable, and functional of the following tools for these prices?
...
This is my first time buying equipment, I am just beginning in electronics/electricity.

As a beginner you should start with low voltages only (i.e <=30V). That enables you to use very cheap multimeters that don't have the safety features they claim.

The minimum necessary tools are a very cheap multimeter, a few switches, a few LEDs, a couple of potentiometers, an isolated current-limited 30V 1A bench power supply, a 15W soldering iron, diagonal cutters and pliers with a fine point.

Those are necessary for any project - but with imagination and understanding, you can do an awful lot with just those! They are cheap, so when you blow something up, it won't cost too much. You will outgrow them, but by that time you be able to articulate what you need and why.

Consider an Analog Discovery; it is designed for students, and is a useful scope / function generator / AWG / spectrum analyser / network analyser / digital pattern generator / logic analyser. Try to get the educational discount.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Lightages

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 4314
  • Country: ca
  • Canadian po
Re: First time gear
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2017, 05:33:46 pm »
I agree with going a bit less expensive on the multimeter, but don't go too cheap neither. Nobody ever complained about buying quality. You might also want to consider two multimeters. Having two is very useful. It is also not usually a good idea to have two instruments or more combined into one unless space on the workbench is a consideration. If you want to upgrade one instrument, then you are locked into upgrading both or duplicating one function. Also if the power supply or some other common part should fail, both instruments are out of commission.

A quick list off the top of my head:

Multimeter(s)- Uni-t UT139C, $50 each
Rigol DZ1054 and hack it, $400 more or less
One of the Feeltech Function generators, $70 more or less
Get a power supply or two, GOPHERT CPS-3205 5A 32V as an example, $80 more or less
And a Hakko fx-888d as already mentioned, around $100.

This would be a good set of equipment for a beginner, and even an advanced hobbyist. When you have this you will learn quickly what the limitations the equipment might have for you and what else you might need.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: First time gear
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2017, 05:39:16 pm »
That is true. But if you are a beginner and trying to work with high voltages without full understanding of what you are doing - Darwin Award awaits.

And those Uni-T meters are reasonably build, so that I personally would trust them 100% for household use. Not so much for HF ones.
It's not hard to make the mistake of poking it in the mains when the markings suggest that it should survive doing so. People doing that are doing nothing wrong, they just haven't learned about unscrupulous manufacturers marking tools with dishonest ratings.

I also think most people underestimate the potency and danger of mains power. They've lived around and worked with it their whole lives without much trouble.

I agree with going a bit less expensive on the multimeter, but don't go too cheap neither. Nobody ever complained about buying quality. You might also want to consider two multimeters. Having two is very useful. It is also not usually a good idea to have two instruments or more combined into one unless space on the workbench is a consideration. If you want to upgrade one instrument, then you are locked into upgrading both or duplicating one function. Also if the power supply or some other common part should fail, both instruments are out of commission.

A quick list off the top of my head:

Multimeter(s)- Uni-t UT139C, $50 each
Rigol DZ1054 and hack it, $400 more or less
One of the Feeltech Function generators, $70 more or less
Get a power supply or two, GOPHERT CPS-3205 5A 32V as an example, $80 more or less
And a Hakko fx-888d as already mentioned, around $100.

This would be a good set of equipment for a beginner, and even an advanced hobbyist. When you have this you will learn quickly what the limitations the equipment might have for you and what else you might need.
Those Feeltech function generators have some issues, like most other cheap options, like high voltages on the neutral lead. I'm not sure that's ideal for a beginner.


 

Offline Lightages

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 4314
  • Country: ca
  • Canadian po
Re: First time gear
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2017, 09:53:38 pm »
Those Feeltech function generators have some issues, like most other cheap options, like high voltages on the neutral lead. I'm not sure that's ideal for a beginner.

That might be a problem yes. Then perhaps this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AE20125-10-MHz-Wobbel-DDS-Funktionsgenerator-Komplett-Bausatz-mit-Gehause-USB-/260883293519?var=&hash=item3cbddb254f:m:maG4eB_x6MGJPQHX9K21Xaw
 

Offline rstofer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9890
  • Country: us
Re: First time gear
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2017, 10:40:52 pm »
As to DMMs, I have several including the EEVblog Brymen and a Fluke 189.  I also have a couple of bench meters so I really didn't need another meter.

Nevertheless, I bought the AN8008 for $25 and it's my go-to meter laying on my workbench.  There are others but this one fits the bill quite well.

I ordered mine from China but I now see that they are available from Amazon with 2-day Prime delivery:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072JMBLJS

No, I don't plan to use it beyond CAT II, if that.  Realistically, the hobbyist will probably never work beyond wall outlet connected devices.  I can't imagine why anybody would be working at CAT III levels (switchboards, circuit breakers, etc) with a DMM.  The voltage is either there, or it isn't.  A 'wiggy' is sufficient!  And, if it isn't, the AN8008 isn't the meter to use.

https://www.amazon.com/Knopp-K-60-Cat-Number-14460/dp/B003A7T5KG

If you're setting utility transformer taps, use a better meter.
 
I can buy 4 of the Aneng 8008s for what that Brymen meter cost and get free shipping.  Yes, the Brymen is a better meter.  I have two of them...

We all have to start somewhere!
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: First time gear
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2017, 10:53:55 pm »
As to DMMs, I have several including the EEVblog Brymen and a Fluke 189.  I also have a couple of bench meters so I really didn't need another meter.

Nevertheless, I bought the AN8008 for $25 and it's my go-to meter laying on my workbench.  There are others but this one fits the bill quite well.

I ordered mine from China but I now see that they are available from Amazon with 2-day Prime delivery:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072JMBLJS

No, I don't plan to use it beyond CAT II, if that.  Realistically, the hobbyist will probably never work beyond wall outlet connected devices.  I can't imagine why anybody would be working at CAT III levels (switchboards, circuit breakers, etc) with a DMM.  The voltage is either there, or it isn't.  A 'wiggy' is sufficient!  And, if it isn't, the AN8008 isn't the meter to use.

https://www.amazon.com/Knopp-K-60-Cat-Number-14460/dp/B003A7T5KG

If you're setting utility transformer taps, use a better meter.
 
I can buy 4 of the Aneng 8008s for what that Brymen meter cost and get free shipping.  Yes, the Brymen is a better meter.  I have two of them...

We all have to start somewhere!
That's the complicated part. Most people here are able to work with the cheapest multimeter safely. They know where to prod safely and what not to mess with without proper gear. A beginner needs more of a buffer, because he knows less about what's wrong and what's right. However, he has less funds to spend on a properly safe multimeter.

I think getting a cheap meter like the AN8008 is a decent option, as long as you can be quite sure the user understands what to use it for and what not to use it for. I wouldn't recommend using it on mains or something like Nixie tubes, which isn't infeasible for a home gamer. If the user understands this, it can be a good option and a lot of value for money to get started.

On second thought, I think the lads below me make a good point. The AN8008 is probably not a good place to get started.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 12:00:40 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: First time gear
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2017, 11:45:15 pm »
A beginner needs more of a buffer, because he knows less about what's wrong and what's right.

I think you've hit on a valid point there.

I mean, what about a car battery. Only 12V, must be safe, right? Wrong, it can deliver 100s of amps, and dumped into an inadequately protected meter because some bozo forgot the probes were in the amps socket could result in a big and damaging bang. I can see exactly how a beginner might make that "Ah, it's only 12V" mistake.

What, me? No, I'm far too experienced to have made a rookie error like that. And if I did I'd be using my nice big beefy Fluke 25. What was that? Oh, yes the Fluke fuses are expensive. How do I know? Oh, I just do, that's all.  :)

The point is that all I got was a momentary scare as the fuse went 'bang!' because it was a big beefy, explosive atmosphere rated, Fluke 25 that I picked over one of the baby meters or bench meters that are around because I knew I was working on a high energy circuit.

I'd suggest that as far as a multimeter goes, pick up a second hand professional meter off ebay. If you're patient, you'll pick up a Fluke 27 within your budget. It's basic but indestructible; you could use it to beat off a home invasion and it'd still be in spec afterwards. I'm sure others can pitch in with a list of their own favourite professional meters that go for a song secondhand.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Lightages

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 4314
  • Country: ca
  • Canadian po
Re: First time gear
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2017, 11:48:18 pm »

 
I can buy 4 of the Aneng 8008s for what that Brymen meter cost and get free shipping.  Yes, the Brymen is a better meter.  I have two of them...

We all have to start somewhere!

It isn't a matter of starting somewhere when the OP seems to have somewhat of a good budget to start. If all you have is $100, then the cheapest meter that will work is a consideration. When you have a better budget then buying quality that will last is a better option.  IMHO the UT139C is enough of a multimeter for almost anyone who is just doing general electronics with the possibility to measure house circuits too. It is better to spend a few bucks more and have something that won't surprise the general user. Getting a meter that isn't suited to general house use is a possible point of error for a beginner.

Ironically, the cheapest meter needs to be used by an expert, not the beginner. An expert will understand the limitations of a piece of equipment but a beginner will have no idea. That is the problem with people recommending cheap meters to beginners. They need the extra safety when they make a beginner mistake.

In my experienced opinion, the minimum meter beginners should buy is something like the UT139C, or an Amprobe AM510, something like that. Getting a Brymen BM235 or BM257S is a better idea but not necessary. Getting a $5 meter for a beginner is a mistake. The UT136A/B/C/D is almost OK but really in better hands for those who know what NOT to do with them. This is not the domain of a beginner. Same goes with the Aneng meters IMHO.

Buy something f quality and don't worry about it. Buy something cheap and always wonder.....
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: First time gear
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2017, 12:31:51 am »
It isn't a matter of starting somewhere when the OP seems to have somewhat of a good budget to start. If all you have is $100, then the cheapest meter that will work is a consideration. When you have a better budget then buying quality that will last is a better option.  IMHO the UT139C is enough of a multimeter for almost anyone who is just doing general electronics with the possibility to measure house circuits too. It is better to spend a few bucks more and have something that won't surprise the general user. Getting a meter that isn't suited to general house use is a possible point of error for a beginner.

Ironically, the cheapest meter needs to be used by an expert, not the beginner. An expert will understand the limitations of a piece of equipment but a beginner will have no idea. That is the problem with people recommending cheap meters to beginners. They need the extra safety when they make a beginner mistake.

In my experienced opinion, the minimum meter beginners should buy is something like the UT139C, or an Amprobe AM510, something like that. Getting a Brymen BM235 or BM257S is a better idea but not necessary. Getting a $5 meter for a beginner is a mistake. The UT136A/B/C/D is almost OK but really in better hands for those who know what NOT to do with them. This is not the domain of a beginner. Same goes with the Aneng meters IMHO.

Buy something f quality and don't worry about it. Buy something cheap and always wonder.....
I agree. With actually quite a reasonable budget available, safety shouldn't be compromised. I would opt for getting one of the Brymens mentioned. Those should be safe when doing stupid things, with only a fuse and your ego taking damage.

I'd also argue that it's better to get a few proper tools, rather than buying a full set of compromises. You can buy something like a Brymen BM257, a DS1054Z and a soldering station from a reputable brand and you'll have a great set that's safe to use and will last you years. You will likely have some money left to spend on a cheap, but otherwise fine function generator that will do the trick for now. There don't seem to be a lot of options for function generators at <$150 that aren't Chinese and a compromise in some way that requires slightly more expertise.

My preliminary suggestions would be:

- Brymen BM257 with logging capabilities
- DS1052E/DS1054Z
- Hakko FX-888D
- Something like a very cheap FG-100 function generator, JDS-6600 or any other generator on a plugpack from eBay, and operate it from a power bank to prevent any grounding issues.

The first three items should last you a long time, well beyond any possible upgrades in the future. The function generator should allow you to experiment without breaking the bank. A proper function generator can be quite expensive, so getting a proper one would severely compromise the other items.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 01:49:03 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5446
  • Country: us
Re: First time gear
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2017, 01:35:21 am »
Multimeter(s)- Uni-t UT139C, $50 each
Rigol DZ1054 and hack it, $400 more or less
One of the Feeltech Function generators, $70 more or less
Get a power supply or two, GOPHERT CPS-3205 5A 32V as an example, $80 more or less
And a Hakko fx-888d as already mentioned, around $100.

This would be a good set of equipment for a beginner, and even an advanced hobbyist. When you have this you will learn quickly what the limitations the equipment might have for you and what else you might need.
I agree on the following:  :-+
  • Uni-T UT139C as a minimum for something with acceptable safety for mains. Given the OP is in the US, it's possible to get a UT139C for $34.05 from China or $36.09 from the US at the time of posting this. Pennies tend to count, so a pair of these could be had for ~$75.  ;)
  • Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
  • Hakko FX-888D soldering station and say ~5 tips (see other threads for recommendations for a starter set)
As per a PSU (preferably a triple channel linear unit), I'd recommend going with quality used gear. Decent units can be had for ~ $100 - $130 shipped on eBay if you're patient.

The second choice for a function generator (AE20125) looks decent at a quick glance, but I'd also recommend at least considering used.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: First time gear
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2017, 01:45:51 am »
I agree on the following:  :-+
  • Uni-T UT139C as a minimum for something with acceptable safety for mains. Given the OP is in the US, it's possible to get a UT139C for $34.05 from China or $36.09 from the US at the time of posting this. Pennies tend to count, so a pair of these could be had for ~$75.  ;)
  • Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
  • Hakko FX-888D soldering station and say ~5 tips (see other threads for recommendations for a starter set)
As per a PSU (preferably a triple channel linear unit), I'd recommend going with quality used gear. Decent units can be had for ~ $100 - $130 shipped on eBay if you're patient.

The second choice for a function generator (AE20125) looks decent at a quick glance, but I'd also recommend at least considering used.
Why do you figure Uni-T meters are acceptably safe on mains? Dave doesn't seem to be too impressed by the safety features of these meters. There doesn't seem to be much reason to trust them more than a cheap Aneng meter and that's one of the more expensive models.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 01:53:28 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline nanofrog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5446
  • Country: us
Re: First time gear
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2017, 02:41:37 am »
I agree on the following:  :-+
  • Uni-T UT139C as a minimum for something with acceptable safety for mains. Given the OP is in the US, it's possible to get a UT139C for $34.05 from China or $36.09 from the US at the time of posting this. Pennies tend to count, so a pair of these could be had for ~$75.  ;)
  • Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
  • Hakko FX-888D soldering station and say ~5 tips (see other threads for recommendations for a starter set)
As per a PSU (preferably a triple channel linear unit), I'd recommend going with quality used gear. Decent units can be had for ~ $100 - $130 shipped on eBay if you're patient.

The second choice for a function generator (AE20125) looks decent at a quick glance, but I'd also recommend at least considering used.
Why do you figure Uni-T meters are acceptably safe on mains? Dave doesn't seem to be too impressed by the safety features of these meters. There doesn't seem to be much reason to trust them more than a cheap Aneng meter and that's one of the more expensive models.
The UT139C's protections are more robust than the UT61 or UT71 series'. They're not the most extensive (CAT III, 600V), but they're acceptable.



If you're curious on features & specs, here's the English Manual for the UT139C.
 

Offline Lightages

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 4314
  • Country: ca
  • Canadian po
Re: First time gear
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2017, 03:20:28 am »
Why do you figure Uni-T meters are acceptably safe on mains? Dave doesn't seem to be too impressed by the safety features of these meters. There doesn't seem to be much reason to trust them more than a cheap Aneng meter and that's one of the more expensive models.

Dave tried a Uni-T that was reviewed and discredited before on these forums. Why?  :-//  I have both the UT71E that he reviewed and the UT139C that I recommend. Just like I might recommend one car from Chevrolet and not recommend one from another, I can do the same with multimeters. The UT139C is designed much better. Dave can say what he thinks, I can say what I think. Dave is not god. Ask him!

The UT139C is sufficiently well built I have no concerns to recommend it. The Aneng meters, well not so much. The UT136A/B/C, not for total newbies. Brymen anything  :-+ Fluke is safe and well built but big bucks for less features. I recommend what I know.
 
The following users thanked this post: electricMN

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12298
  • Country: au
Re: First time gear
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2017, 05:58:43 am »
A beginner needs more of a buffer, because he knows less about what's wrong and what's right.

I think you've hit on a valid point there.

I mean, what about a car battery. Only 12V, must be safe, right? Wrong, it can deliver 100s of amps, and dumped into an inadequately protected meter because some bozo forgot the probes were in the amps socket could result in a big and damaging bang. I can see exactly how a beginner might make that "Ah, it's only 12V" mistake.

What, me? No, I'm far too experienced to have made a rookie error like that. And if I did I'd be using my nice big beefy Fluke 25. What was that? Oh, yes the Fluke fuses are expensive. How do I know? Oh, I just do, that's all.  :)

The point is that all I got was a momentary scare as the fuse went 'bang!' because it was a big beefy, explosive atmosphere rated, Fluke 25 that I picked over one of the baby meters or bench meters that are around because I knew I was working on a high energy circuit.

You reminded me of a guitarist friend, who, many years ago, asked me what the best meter was.  From my (at that time) limited knowledge, I pointed him to Fluke.  Later he went out and spent (what I would have considered) a small fortune on a Fluke DMM.  I thought this was complete overkill - but after one of his initial tests with his new meter, I had second thoughts about that criticism.  I was keen to see him and check out his new bit of kit walk him through his new acquisition, but he already had some things in mind.....

He wanted to check his household mains current.

"He didn't!!?"  You might exclaim.

Yes .... he did.

All that was to show for it was one very dead fuse - and one rather puzzled owner.
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19509
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: First time gear
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2017, 07:23:34 am »
Ironically, the cheapest meter needs to be used by an expert, not the beginner. An expert will understand the limitations of a piece of equipment but a beginner will have no idea. That is the problem with people recommending cheap meters to beginners. They need the extra safety when they make a beginner mistake.

Or tell the beginner to only use it on "intrinsically safe" things, e.g. less than 30V.

That voltage is sufficient for many (most?) beginners' purposes, and if they need to exceed it then they have been forewarned that they are heading into less safe territory.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline rstofer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9890
  • Country: us
Re: First time gear
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2017, 01:28:10 pm »
Ironically, the cheapest meter needs to be used by an expert, not the beginner. An expert will understand the limitations of a piece of equipment but a beginner will have no idea. That is the problem with people recommending cheap meters to beginners. They need the extra safety when they make a beginner mistake.

Or tell the beginner to only use it on "intrinsically safe" things, e.g. less than 30V.

That voltage is sufficient for many (most?) beginners' purposes, and if they need to exceed it then they have been forewarned that they are heading into less safe territory.

So, to protect the beginner, we need to recommend CAT IV 1000V meters as a minimum.  After all, they just might decide to stumble into working on utility distribution.

Nothing is safe!  I don't care how good your meter is if you drop your ChannelLocks across the battery terminals of your car.  Or, you wear your watch with metal band while reaching up behind a dashboard.

I just don't see hobbyists working beyond the definition of CAT II - cord connected devices.  On my bench, 12V would be a higher voltage.  OK, I do use +- 15V for op amps.  But these supplies have serious current limitations.

Designing mains connected SMPSs?  Why?  It's been done and every conceivable variation is for sale on eBay.  Think you're going to cut a fat hog?  Forget about it, better engineers have tried.

I would be willing to bet that none of the folks around here wear the mandated low voltage gloves when working on > 50V.  They are required in industry but never used by hobbyists unless the voltage gets crazy high.  And even then...

The Aneng fuses are only rated 250V and that seems strange for a meter with a 600V CAT III 1000V CAT II rating but the highest voltage I could conceivably work on would be 240VAC and I don't use DMMs for that kind of work.

It's funny in a way:  There was a time when DMMs didn't have a rating, there was a time when DMMs didn't exist and there was a time when V-O-Ms weren't even fused.  But, somehow, we're still here.  Amazing!
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: First time gear
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2017, 01:36:44 pm »
Or tell the beginner to only use it on "intrinsically safe" things, e.g. less than 30V.

That voltage is sufficient for many (most?) beginners' purposes, and if they need to exceed it then they have been forewarned that they are heading into less safe territory.
I think the car battery example shows fairly decently why low voltages do not necessarily equate to no issues. Current measurements are more likely to get you into hot water anyway.



So, to protect the beginner, we need to recommend CAT IV 1000V meters as a minimum.  After all, they just might decide to stumble into working on utility distribution.

Nothing is safe!  I don't care how good your meter is if you drop your ChannelLocks across the battery terminals of your car.  Or, you wear your watch with metal band while reaching up behind a dashboard.

I just don't see hobbyists working beyond the definition of CAT II - cord connected devices.  On my bench, 12V would be a higher voltage.  OK, I do use +- 15V for op amps.  But these supplies have serious current limitations.

Designing mains connected SMPSs?  Why?  It's been done and every conceivable variation is for sale on eBay.  Think you're going to cut a fat hog?  Forget about it, better engineers have tried.

I would be willing to bet that none of the folks around here wear the mandated low voltage gloves when working on > 50V.  They are required in industry but never used by hobbyists unless the voltage gets crazy high.  And even then...

The Aneng fuses are only rated 250V and that seems strange for a meter with a 600V CAT III 1000V CAT II rating but the highest voltage I could conceivably work on would be 240VAC and I don't use DMMs for that kind of work.

It's funny in a way:  There was a time when DMMs didn't have a rating, there was a time when DMMs didn't exist and there was a time when V-O-Ms weren't even fused.  But, somehow, we're still here.  Amazing!
Why do you think measuring equipment and safety ratings were invented in the first place? Because better men and women than us paid the price for not having them. I don't think anyone expects a hobbyist to work on industrial equipment. However, the gear should be safe with anything commonly and reasonably found inside the home. That includes poking the mains with a meter apparently rated to do so.

We should also take into account that people are forgetful. Even if you know a meter is unsafe for anything but low voltage now, will you still know when you pick it up in 5 years, when the hobby has died off but the multimeter is still around? Will a random family member?
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: First time gear
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2017, 02:34:19 pm »
You reminded me of a guitarist friend, [snip]

"He didn't!!?"  You might exclaim.

Yes .... he did.

Imagine if it had been a drummer... [fx: rimshot]
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline technogeeky

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 555
  • Country: us
  • Older New "New Player" Player Playa'
Re: First time gear
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2017, 03:28:35 pm »
I would like to know; what are the best, most reliable, and functional of the following tools for these prices?

Oscilloscope for under $300
Multimeter for under $150
Function generator for under $150
Soldering iron for under $150
...



This is my first time buying equipment, I am just beginning in electronics/electricity.
+ Is it miss-guided of me to think that a function generator merged with a power supply is a good idea?
A lot of people have put thought out responses, I'm just going to list things.

SCOPE


Multimeter:
I'm not going to suggest a model because so many have so many suggestions, but I will say: perhaps choose a model where you can afford two (or even three!) of them. This lets you do things like measure multiple voltage rails, measure voltage and current at once, or measure the multimeter's behavior with another multimeter (this can be a learning experience). Plus, it's handy to have a spare. Unlike oscilloscopes, where all channels will share the same ground (even across two oscilloscopes), it can be handy to have many multimeters so you can probe anywhere without worrying about blowing things up due to ground shorts (battery powered multimeters are floating by design).

Soldering Iron:

  • Hakko 888d
  • TS-100 (yes, this is really on par with the Hakko) (needs power supply)

Function Generator (oldest to newest, I guess):


You asked for a combined power supply and function generator, and you were rebuffed. There are such things, but good ones are extremely expensive. However, the there is this:

MHS-5200P

This will let you take the same arbitrary voltage waveforms you can generate with the MHS-5200A but also deliver current (it says up to 30V 1A). This could be useful for testing some things that you otherwise could not test (transformer saturation comes to mind). As a DC power supply, it's probably not great (see later). But for an arbitrary waveform power supply, it might work and might be worth the extra $50 over the MHS-5200A.

Some things you didn't list but you will want or need:

  • Isolation Transformer (protect your oscilloscope!)[1]
  • Transistor Tester
  • DC Power Supply


[1]: People will rightly claim that this is not the correct thing to do, that you should get a differential/high voltage probe. The bottom line is that we're not made of money and an isolation transformer affords protection:
  • Isolation Transformer on DUT (Device Under Test) will protect your oscilloscope (you still can't connect multiple ground leads to different voltages, but you can connect one ground lead to any voltage you want), but will present a new risk to your person
  • Isolation Transformer on Oscilloscope (when DUT draws too much current) will protect your oscilloscope, but pose new risks to you (cover all exposed metal on oscilloscope)
  • Floating the DUT will present risks to both you and the oscilloscope
  • Floating the oscilloscope will present risks to you, and will make measurements more difficult and noisy
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf