Author Topic: First time gear  (Read 2666 times)

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Offline rstofer

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2017, 01:37:49 AM »

Why do you think measuring equipment and safety ratings were invented in the first place? Because better men and women than us paid the price for not having them. I don't think anyone expects a hobbyist to work on industrial equipment. However, the gear should be safe with anything commonly and reasonably found inside the home. That includes poking the mains with a meter apparently rated to do so.

I have actually seen the results of using a poor defenseless Simpson 260 on 480VAC with the switch and leads set to either Rx1 or some current range.  It was hard to tell since the meter approximated a hand grenade.  The tech (an HVAC guy) decided to stay out of the electrical end of the business, like forever.  There was a bit of plastic embedded in his chest and the engineer with him needed a change of pants.  That's the problem with working out of your job classification.  480VAC with 100k Amps of available fault current is no place to mess around.

Fortunately, there was no plasma arc between the phases.  That would have been exciting!

I don't believe there is an appreciable difference between probing the residential panel and a wall outlet 30 feet away.  More often than not, the available fault current is on the order of 5000A and, possibly, but rarely, as high as 10,000A.  These are not insignificant numbers! But the CAT ratings are for impulses - lightning being the most likely (since we are not running street cars in our houses).

In terms of residential troubleshooting, I don't think I would go out of my way to have a CAT III rating although just about every meter claims to have one.  And it's all CLAIMS because, AFAIK, UL listings are fairly scarce.  There are a lot of CE marks but those are self-certifying.  Maybe true, maybe not...  How many of the Chinese meters carry a UL Listing?  That Uni-T doesn't AFAICT and the Aneng certainly doesn't.  Both are CE marked and both carry similar ratings with the Aneng able to withstand a slightly higher voltage applied to the resistance scales.

http://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-dmm/0518-dmm-campaign/dmm/fluke_dmm-chfr/files/safetyguidelines.pdf

Quote
We should also take into account that people are forgetful. Even if you know a meter is unsafe for anything but low voltage now, will you still know when you pick it up in 5 years, when the hobby has died off but the multimeter is still around? Will a random family member?

Any CAT II meter should be fully qualified for residential (family member) work.  CAT II is so low on the totem pole that it is almost always a 'lesser included' with some CAT III rating.  Neither are going to survive a lighting strike on the pole at the end of my driveway.

I'll concede that the ratings are probably bogus on any meter not labelled FLUKE.  If the user measures voltage with the probes in the 10A jacks, things are going to go bad.  The very best meters try to signal when the probes are misconnected.  But, in the end, if the probes are set to measure current and the dial is set to measure current, the meter won't complain until you measure voltage!  But this has nothing to do with CAT ratings.  But it does go to fuse type and voltage rating.  Will the fuse extinguish the arc or not?  Wanna bet?

Really, the safe bet is to only recommend UL Listed CAT IV 1000V meters.  I don't know if anybody makes one because all I see are CAT IV 600V but still...  But it only counts if the meter is UL Listed or ETL Listed.  CE Mark doesn't mean spit.

Another thought:  Just because a person knows a little electronics and is fully qualified to blink an LED with an Arduino doesn't mean they should be working on mains.  Clint Eastwood said it best: "A man has to know his limitations!".

The problem with multimeters is that they are so simple to operate.  So simple, in fact, that many users don't stop to THINK.  Meters should power up with THINK on the screen!

Not saying it won't happen tomorrow but in 60 years, I have yet to pop a fuse in a meter.  Heck, they didn't even have fuses when I started.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 01:40:59 AM by rstofer »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2017, 02:32:13 AM »
Using an isolation transformer is the most patently unsafe thing a hobbyist can do!  Period!

So, you float your scope and hook up one probe with its ground connection to some elevated voltage difference.  Even the ground lead is elevated from earth ground.  As is the scope and it's BNC connectors.  Now, when you go to clip in the ground lead of the second scope, OOPS!, it isn't at ground when you touch it.  It isn't necessarily going to connect to an identical voltage as the first probe.  That's the second OOPS!  You probably can't take simultaneous elevated differential measurements unless there is a common, but not grounded, reference point.

This is a huge accident waiting to happen.  At best, if then, this should be done by professionals.  As a 60 year amateur, I still don't have such a transformer and I have yet to see a need for such a thing.

The scope has an A-B function that is likely to be entirely adequate for differential measurements.  And the scope can stay grounded!
 

Offline technogeeky

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2017, 02:56:40 AM »
Using an isolation transformer is the most patently unsafe thing a hobbyist can do!  Period!

So, you float your scope and hook up one probe with its ground connection to some elevated voltage difference.  Even the ground lead is elevated from earth ground.  As is the scope and it's BNC connectors.  Now, when you go to clip in the ground lead of the second scope, OOPS!, it isn't at ground when you touch it.  It isn't necessarily going to connect to an identical voltage as the first probe.  That's the second OOPS!  You probably can't take simultaneous elevated differential measurements unless there is a common, but not grounded, reference point.

This is a huge accident waiting to happen.  At best, if then, this should be done by professionals.  As a 60 year amateur, I still don't have such a transformer and I have yet to see a need for such a thing.

The scope has an A-B function that is likely to be entirely adequate for differential measurements.  And the scope can stay grounded!

Which is why I made the distinction of leaving the scopes connected directly, and isolating the DUT.

I find it amazing that you have worked 60 years and never come across a situation where an isolation transformer was necessary. But I don't know what kind of gear you work on...
 

Offline Assafl

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2017, 03:55:09 AM »
Sharp (and safe) probes are worthwhile.

For a new guy to try to probe while looking at the meter - it is neither convenient nor safe to have the probes ski the slopes of the solder pads (and short a circuit).
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2017, 04:02:42 AM »
I find it amazing that you have worked 60 years and never come across a situation where an isolation transformer was necessary. But I don't know what kind of gear you work on...

I don't work on TVs or vacuum tube audio, I don't work on SMPSs, I buy them.  There's a lot of stuff I don't do!  Not because of risk but because of a lack of interest.

Don't let that fool you, I spent my entire career in electrical up to and including 115 kV distribution, HF6 circuit breakers, too many 12kV-480/277V unit substations to count (26 at my last job) and a LOT of motor and machine control.

Electronics is not an area where I use anything beyond op-amp power supplies.  Maybe the odd robotics project with, perhaps, 12V drives and, or course, my CNC mill with a 48V power supply.  But everything is ground referenced.

Nixie tubes are cool, I have a Heathkit Frequency Counter that uses them.  And I built the 10 MHz Dual Channel Heathkit Oscilloscope.  Somehow, I survived!

I would try to work around the problem of measuring the voltage drop across some component where one end isn't grounded.

If I ever find an application that absolutely requires an isolation transformer, I'm going to be using a lot of rubber.  Including voltage appropriate gloves.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2017, 04:20:07 AM »
Any CAT II meter should be fully qualified for residential (family member) work.  CAT II is so low on the totem pole that it is almost always a 'lesser included' with some CAT III rating.  Neither are going to survive a lighting strike on the pole at the end of my driveway.

CATII is for use in anything in a house that is farther than 10 meters from the distribution panel. How many outlets are that far in your house?

I'll concede that the ratings are probably bogus on any meter not labelled FLUKE.

Yeah right. Amrpobe, Keysight, Brymen, Hioki, etc. are all lying.


Really, the safe bet is to only recommend UL Listed CAT IV 1000V meters.  I don't know if anybody makes one because all I see are CAT IV 600V but still...  But it only counts if the meter is UL Listed or ETL Listed.  CE Mark doesn't mean spit.

Brymen makes CATIV 1000V meters. The Amprobe HD series are also rated the same. These ratings are not needed. I am happy to see meters having CATIII 600V or even 300V for home users.


Another thought:  Just because a person knows a little electronics and is fully qualified to blink an LED with an Arduino doesn't mean they should be working on mains.  Clint Eastwood said it best: "A man has to know his limitations!".

People keep saying this, "A beginner needs to know". How does a beginner know? What in the word "beginner" means "with experience to know your limitations"?

The problem with multimeters is that they are so simple to operate.  So simple, in fact, that many users don't stop to THINK.  Meters should power up with THINK on the screen!

So you are saying that even non-beginners need some help in their equipment to mitigate harm?
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Offline ez24

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2017, 05:16:23 AM »
Using an isolation transformer is the most patently unsafe thing a hobbyist can do!  Period!

Here is why

« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 05:19:30 AM by ez24 »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2017, 05:17:02 AM »

CATII is for use in anything in a house that is farther than 10 meters from the distribution panel. How many outlets are that far in your house?

Quite a few, actually.  The house is 3200 sf with two subpanels plus 2 outbuildings with their own subpanels.
I don't recall seeing a meter with just CAT II ratings.
Quote

I'll concede that the ratings are probably bogus on any meter not labelled FLUKE.

Yeah right. Amrpobe, Keysight, Brymen, Hioki, etc. are all lying.
If they have UL or ETL listings then they are compliant.  They have been tested by laboratories and found to comply.  I don't know how many of those you listed are UL Listed.  Maybe all of them.  Maybe none.  Fluke has UL Listed models.
Quote
Really, the safe bet is to only recommend UL Listed CAT IV 1000V meters.  I don't know if anybody makes one because all I see are CAT IV 600V but still...  But it only counts if the meter is UL Listed or ETL Listed.  CE Mark doesn't mean spit.

Brymen makes CATIV 1000V meters. The Amprobe HD series are also rated the same. These ratings are not needed. I am happy to see meters having CATIII 600V or even 300V for home users.
Good to know!  Then that's what we should  recommend.  Ultimate safety rating!
Quote

Another thought:  Just because a person knows a little electronics and is fully qualified to blink an LED with an Arduino doesn't mean they should be working on mains.  Clint Eastwood said it best: "A man has to know his limitations!".

People keep saying this, "A beginner needs to know". How does a beginner know? What in the word "beginner" means "with experience to know your limitations"?
Well, they should know that they don't know!  In industry, it doesn't matter how good you are, if you haven't been trained by the company, with training records, you are untrained.
Quote

The problem with multimeters is that they are so simple to operate.  So simple, in fact, that many users don't stop to THINK.  Meters should power up with THINK on the screen!

So you are saying that even non-beginners need some help in their equipment to mitigate harm?
Actually, yes!  In industry, it is the experienced that are getting hurt.  Yes, the newbies get hurt too but why the old-timers?  There is the idea that this is caused by postprandial somnolence - falling asleep (lack of attention) following a meal.  Postprandial hypoglycemia is another issue but it takes a little longer to manifest.

In one of our training courses, it was brought up that a high percentage of accidents occur right after lunch.  Lack of attention, done it a thousand times, not watching what your partner is doing, all contribute.

Safety is a very tough subject.  Equipment is part of it, personal protective equipment is part, attitude is part, outside factors (fight with the old lady) is a part but procedures is a big part of the solution.  Written procedures for all repetitive operations.  It's very complicated...

But THINK goes a long way toward safety.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2017, 06:06:46 AM »
The EEVblog Brymen BM235 is UL Listed to 300V CAT IV, 600V CAT III and 1000V CAT II.  But it is UL Listed and the logo is on the face of the meter.  Note that it isn't suitable for working on 480V 3 phase switchgear.

The Brymen BM869s, for example, claims 1000V CAT IV but shows no sign that it is UL Listed.  It has great specs but they aren't confirmed by an independent laboratory AFAICT.  Perhaps the logo is on the back of the case.  I didn't see anything about listing in the manual.  I might have missed it...


 

Offline Lightages

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2017, 06:57:20 AM »
The EEVblog Brymen BM235 is UL Listed to 300V CAT IV, 600V CAT III and 1000V CAT II.  But it is UL Listed and the logo is on the face of the meter.  Note that it isn't suitable for working on 480V 3 phase switchgear.

The Brymen BM869s, for example, claims 1000V CAT IV but shows no sign that it is UL Listed.  It has great specs but they aren't confirmed by an independent laboratory AFAICT.  Perhaps the logo is on the back of the case.  I didn't see anything about listing in the manual.  I might have missed it...

All Brymens are UL listed.
I am NOT a distributor for Brymen.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2017, 07:19:04 AM »
The EEVblog Brymen BM235 is UL Listed to 300V CAT IV, 600V CAT III and 1000V CAT II.  But it is UL Listed and the logo is on the face of the meter.  Note that it isn't suitable for working on 480V 3 phase switchgear.

The Brymen BM869s, for example, claims 1000V CAT IV but shows no sign that it is UL Listed.  It has great specs but they aren't confirmed by an independent laboratory AFAICT.  Perhaps the logo is on the back of the case.  I didn't see anything about listing in the manual.  I might have missed it...

All Brymens are UL listed.

You are correct!  I got onto their page from a different direction and they clearly show UL for the entire range.  It's odd that they don't put the logo on the front like they do for the BM235.

Given the UL Listing, the ratings have been tested and are real.

http://www.brymen.com/PD02BM860s_869s.html

Scroll toward the bottom and there is a UL and CE symbol.

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2017, 07:50:43 AM »
You are correct!  I got onto their page from a different direction and they clearly show UL for the entire range.  It's odd that they don't put the logo on the front like they do for the BM235.

Given the UL Listing, the ratings have been tested and are real.

http://www.brymen.com/PD02BM860s_869s.html
We should note that there are even less scrupulous manufacturers that put UL listings on hardware that hasn't ever seen a test lab from the inside. Having a UL logo on a product isn't a guarantee it's actually UL tested. Some Asian manufacturers put any and all logos on there that customers seem to like.

Obviously, the Brymens are the real deal, but you need to do the smell test on cheaper or lesser known units.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2017, 08:44:36 AM »
It's odd that they don't put the logo on the front like they do for the BM235.
Printing space on the front panel appears to be very limited with what's already there to my eyes, so I suspect it would have been too crowded and cause confusion had they done so.
 

Offline technogeeky

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2017, 02:48:47 AM »
Using an isolation transformer is the most patently unsafe thing a hobbyist can do!  Period!

Here is why



So I think I've made an omission and you've slightly misinterpreted this video.

1. I should have said that it's important to buy an isolation transformer and disconnect the ground strap (aka floating the isolation transformer, I believe). I was taking this step for granted, but that is not the case. If you just buy an off the shelf isolation transformer and don't disconnect the ground, you are just transferring the wiring conditions (hot, neutral <-> ground) from the wall outlet to the isolation transformer. This buys you almost nothing (except re-referencing the hot).

2. In this video, Mr. Carlson emphasizes the potential dangers of isolation transformers twice, but in two different ways. When he first shows an isolation transformer (without ground removal), he emphasizes how this is dangerous and is gaining you nothing. But then when he removes the ground, he gives his standard warning when doing something that is useful (or necessary to continue) but dangerous. (although he also says "I am not recommending you do this" which I admit is different from his usual warning). I actually might contact him and ask him to redo this video and include a demonstration of all the available options (including the expensive ones like differential probes).

I also wonder if an isolation transformer whose output is a GFCI outlet would pass muster as a standard recommendation around here. This might be annoying if testing devices which operate normally with some leakage current (or devices which are malfunctioning and have leakage current), but it would provide a degree of protection. Although I suppose actual measurements might set it off also...
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2017, 06:01:17 AM »
OK people, this is getting way off topic for the OP. He/She wanted to know what was good equipment to buy as a beginner for the budget that was proposed. This always happens when someone new gets on here and asks a beginner question. Stop debating videos, philosophy of safety blah blah blah. I did the same but in my defense it was because I was correcting the cavalier attitude toward safety demonstrated by some people. IMHO, we should try to present a united front in what a beginner should not buy, at least. I am going to start another thread about this specifically and all can refer to that instead of thread crapping a beginner's post every time.

New thread here, let's get back on topic for the OP please.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/beginners-and-beginner-questions-why-the-disparity-in-answers/
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 06:42:42 AM by Lightages »
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Offline bd139

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2017, 06:55:15 AM »
Really beginners don't want to splash the cash right away. That's a bad idea. You blow it all and you find you need something and you're SOL. Not only that, new stuff depreciates instantly, especially crappy Chinese junk which is in budget. Second hand kit has a potential to profit if you want to upgrade later as the depreciation is already done and pricing is volatile. If you make a purchase mistake your losses are minimal.

Scope: second hand analogue unit to start with. Tek/Hameg/anything really as long as it works. 50-100MHz bandwidth. $100. Grab some cheap probes off eBay for it.

DMM: second hand Fluke 25, 77, 8020 series, 8050, 8060. $50. Grab some new probes for it.

Function generator: second hand analogue unit. Krohn Hite, HP, Thurlby, Global Specialities, GW Instek. Anything will do. $50. Grab a couple of BNC and clip leads for it.

Soldering iron: Aoyue 936 or other not to shabby Hakko clone. $50. If you're lucky, grab a Weller TCP second hand.

Now you've got enough cash to buy a second hand HP/Agilent power supply!

Step one is not to buy any crappy Chinese stuff like no brand DDS's until you understand the limitations. You can get a lot better kit that will do you as a beginner.

One thing you NEED to buy are some decent snips, strippers and pliers.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 06:56:52 AM by bd139 »
 

Offline HB9EVI

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2017, 05:41:58 AM »
I think it's ok to point out safety issues, even for low voltages; especially current measurements should be well observed; just some days ago I worked on a circuit, the benchtop meter wired for voltage and current - common ground of course; a little bit unattentive, touching the wrong red probe on the wrong place - the probes tip is no tip any longer; the 3A 12V SMPS delivered the maximal possible current. It's going so fast; and I can happen to me as well, after about 30 years working on diy electronic cirucits.

And let's not forget the flimsy things on several cheap DMM strangely combined with CAT III or even CAT IV labels:  250V fuses for 600V mesurements, flimsy connectors and cables to carry up to 10A a.s.o.

So if you know, what you're doing everything is fine, even with a cheapo DMM; if you're doing really really wrong, I wouldn't rely on the protection measures of a Fluke either.

To extend my device park and replacing the 2 lousy old cheapo 1999count DMMs, I ordered a UT61E (@Bang 33$) and a UT136D (@Ali 14$). They're quite ok if you know what you can expect.
If you can get somewhere the UT61E for less than usual 50 to 55 bucks, take it.

What I have to say about all DMMs I already bought is: forget about the supplied cables and probes; get some decent silicone cables and probes which can be called like that; I personally like Hirschmann probes and cables.

Scope go for the DS1054Z + hack.

About FG I cannot say much; For HF/VHF I'm using a homebrew DDS with an AD9854 and an AD9951; for LF triangle and square I recently added an AD9833, from long time ago I still own a Gwinstek FG 3MHz which I use for higher signal level needs.

Soldering station is since years a simple 80W Weller station; I'm thinking about a hot air station for the constantly increasing SMD based works.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2017, 08:01:01 AM »
And let's not forget the flimsy things on several cheap DMM strangely combined with CAT III or even CAT IV labels:  250V fuses for 600V mesurements, flimsy connectors and cables to carry up to 10A a.s.o.
Definitely.

Some meters might actually handle 600V on voltage function only, but 250V on all current measurements. The user must pay attention to such details, as some will list this on the front panel in some manner, to not at all (where teardowns really come in handy  ;)).

So if you know, what you're doing everything is fine, even with a cheapo DMM; if you're doing really really wrong, I wouldn't rely on the protection measures of a Fluke either.
True, as CAT ratings are there to protect the user (up to a point), not the meter.

Exceed the CAT specs' transient/surge voltage rating however, and even the best name brands can become a grenade.  :o

...[snip]...get some decent silicone cables and probes which can be called like that; I personally like Hirschmann probes and cables.
Good advice.  :-+

Most of my stuff is Probemaster as I find it to offer a better deal than other quality brands based on US pricing, but I'd trust Hirschmann, Mueller, Cal Tech, or Pomona/Fluke as a general rule. Shame Oldaker Mfg. Corp.'s plant burnt down, causing them to fold (nearly identical to Probemaster, down to the Softie probe body; some info here).

FWIW, there's Fluke TL71 test leads available on eBay for $6.99 shipped (silicone insulation & rated for 10A). According the member that initially linked these (and has tested them), they're suspected to be genuine units made for the Chinese market.

Here's the last Oldaker Catalog (.pdf) I could find for those interested. No Softies pictured, but its solid red & black ergonomic bodied predecessor is (photo on first page). BTW, Probemaster used this same body prior to the current Softie body on the 8000 series' stuff as well. Perhaps Probemaster was one of their suppliers as Mueller was.  :-//
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2017, 04:13:09 AM »
And let's not forget the flimsy things on several cheap DMM strangely combined with CAT III or even CAT IV labels:  250V fuses for 600V mesurements, flimsy connectors and cables to carry up to 10A a.s.o.
Definitely.

Some meters might actually handle 600V on voltage function only, but 250V on all current measurements. The user must pay attention to such details, as some will list this on the front panel in some manner, to not at all (where teardowns really come in handy  ;)).

So if you know, what you're doing everything is fine, even with a cheapo DMM; if you're doing really really wrong, I wouldn't rely on the protection measures of a Fluke either.
True, as CAT ratings are there to protect the user (up to a point), not the meter.

Exceed the CAT specs' transient/surge voltage rating however, and even the best name brands can become a grenade.  :o

...[snip]...get some decent silicone cables and probes which can be called like that; I personally like Hirschmann probes and cables.
Good advice.  :-+

Most of my stuff is Probemaster as I find it to offer a better deal than other quality brands based on US pricing, but I'd trust Hirschmann, Mueller, Cal Tech, or Pomona/Fluke as a general rule. Shame Oldaker Mfg. Corp.'s plant burnt down, causing them to fold (nearly identical to Probemaster, down to the Softie probe body; some info here).

FWIW, there's Fluke TL71 test leads available on eBay for $6.99 shipped (silicone insulation & rated for 10A). According the member that initially linked these (and has tested them), they're suspected to be genuine units made for the Chinese market.

Here's the last Oldaker Catalog (.pdf) I could find for those interested. No Softies pictured, but its solid red & black ergonomic bodied predecessor is (photo on first page). BTW, Probemaster used this same body prior to the current Softie body on the 8000 series' stuff as well. Perhaps Probemaster was one of their suppliers as Mueller was.  :-//
Can you link to the post or thread that mentions those Fluke leads?
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2017, 04:32:56 AM »
I think we all scared the OP away. He posted once and has never responded. I sent him a PM and he has not responded. I tried to get people to get back on track for his original question and even started a thread to divert this kind of argument away from here. C'mon people, why do we always have to dog pile on a thread and piss off the beginners?
I am NOT a distributor for Brymen.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2017, 04:51:22 AM »
I think CAT rating is the electrical engineers' dick size and it turned into a dick swinging competition.

He'll be on all about circuits forum now.
 

Offline HB9EVI

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2017, 06:17:21 AM »
I think we all scared the OP away. He posted once and has never responded. I sent him a PM and he has not responded. I tried to get people to get back on track for his original question and even started a thread to divert this kind of argument away from here. C'mon people, why do we always have to dog pile on a thread and piss off the beginners?

You're quite right, but on the other hand, should the people just getting into it not get all necessary information to get to right conclusions? I mean just enter once the term 'multimeter' on Ali, ebay or other platform; already for an experienced electro hobbyist it's not an easy decision to choose; so you start a thread here or elsewhere, you check youtube for reviews a.s.o. and sure you end like in good old latin proverb 'quot homines, tot sententiae', you get every possible feedback, and maybe you get to a decision which is acceptable, or you run away and do nothing - so obviously you chose the wrong leisure time activity...
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: First time gear
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2017, 07:56:46 AM »
Can you link to the post or thread that mentions those Fluke leads?
Found a post from Fungus in the ANENG AN8001, 6000 count true RMS Multimeter for $14. thread (link takes you to his post).
 


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