Author Topic: Grounding old equipment  (Read 20277 times)

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Offline tronde

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #125 on: August 01, 2017, 08:11:33 pm »

Finally stop quoting your 4mm and 5mm mantra as the only safety metric,

Gyro, you must learn to READ.

I have never claimed 4 and 5mm as the only safety metric. I have always mentioned that the environment must be considered.
Already in my first post I wrote:

"This is a stereo. It's meant for a normal domestic environment, i.e. no excessive humidity or dust. It is not ment to be mechanically abused as power tools are."


I have also written:

"The intended use and environment plays a big role in the design and certification process. Equipment meant to be used in a normal office / living room environment is subject to lighter regulations than something meant for use in the kitchen or outdoors or as toys for instance."


But you prefer to be blind for this. Only you can tell why.





Electrical safety has nothing to do with words written on a paper.
Legal safety has something to do with words on paper.

No product will become safe because of words, and no product will become unsafe because we call the product something else.

What makes a product safe depends on the environment and physics. 4 and 5mm will provide the clearances necessary for normal mains voltages in a normal office or living room environment, regardless of what is written on any paper or what we prefer to call the product.

 The reason the standards increases this distances for certain products is not because we call the product someting else than computer or fax or monitor. The reason they demand more clearance for some products is because they know that those products probably will be exposed to a more demanding environment, for instance people acting stupid. They increase the safety margin. Not necessarily because the product itself needs it, but because of the expected environment. They don't make a separate standard for every product imaginable. They try to group them according to expected use and environment.

Your computer monitor with 4/5mm distances is considered perfectly safe when you use it as a monitor for your computer in your living room. This monitor will not become unsafe just because you hang it on the wall in the same living room and uses it as a TV together with a TV dongle. According to words written on paper, it is now a TV and should be tested as a TV to be conform with a more demanding standard. Because of this it is legally unsafe. It is still electrically safe because it is still used in the environment it was designed for. If you move it to the kitchen or outdoors, you can find it to be both electricall and legally unsafe because the environment is too different from what it was designed for regardless of being used as a TV or a monitor.


But - I don't think you ever will get it.
It seems like it is impossible for you to see the difference between how to find out if an existing product can be considered as safe to use, and the design process needed to create a new product that will have to follow all legal requirement in today's legislation.

Sigh, ok you've provoked me into final comments  :palm:

1. I could go on at length about degree of contamination - often old consumer equipment is very dusty inside, in a smoker's home MUCH worse.

2. As Hero999 states, the mains supply is subject to transients. Scores of pages are spent in the Test equipment section on the safety of DMMs which might very occasionally be connected to the mains by unwise people. Most of those have creepage and clearances greater than 4/5mm but they lack the additional surge withstanding components to withstand possible transients. AV equipment is normally permanently plugged into the mains.

I could go on but since you have chosen to differentiate your definition of electrical safety from the Legal definition of safety....  and since this is the BEGINNERS section of the forum...

Which definition of safety will an Insurance Company or Court base it's judgement on in case of death or injury through Electrocution or Fire? The LEGAL definition of safety or the trondeTM definition of safety?

You don't get it Gyro, You really don't get it.

You don't want to understand what I say, and you do whatever you can to twist it as much as possible. Only you can tell why.



I HAVE been very specific about the prerequisite for when we can use the 4/5mm as a guide when we evaluate the risk for danger.

I HAVE been very specific about the impact the environment will have on safety. I even gave an example for how small changes can change everything.

I have NEVER claimed that these distances can be used as a guideline for new producs.

I have used them as an EXAMPLE for why normal mains voltages are usually not extremely dangerous as many seems to believe.



No need to tell me about contamination. I made a living out of repairing TVs long time ago. Heavy smokers without knowledge of vacuum cleaners are no strangers to me. But, I do really think I mentioned dustfree environment as a prerequisite, didn't I? Yes, I do really think I did so. Don't know why you bring it up again.



When it comes to transients: Yes, they exist. They have even considered them when they made the standards. The funny thing is that both office equipment and AV-equipment is meant to be used in the same category-II overvoltage environment. That is what you have in an office or a normal home, so the transients will be the same. Both types of equipment are usually permanently connected to mains as well. I guess you are aware of this?

The real difference between those two types of equipment, is the environment. This is why they increased the safety margins on AV-equipment. This is not the same as office equipment, or anything following that standard, is close to unsafe when used in the intended environment. I have said it several times, but again, you prefer to twist it as much as possible.



*

This is about Europe, but it seems like most countries follow this route when they upgrade their laws.


In Europe, safety for most electrical equipment is regulated by the Low Voltage Directive. The LVD is "the law" about this here.

The LVD says very little about specific technical things. The LVD is based on "function" instead of details. The LVD lists some "functions" that are vital for a product. Most important is (in free wording) "not cause damage to any person", "not cause any damage to animals" and "not cause any damage to buildings". Then, they say, it's up to you to figure out how to give these "functions" to your product.

They know this can be difficult, so they reach out an helping hand. They tell you that if you build your product in accordance to what is known as "harmonised standards" (those with a name beginning with EN), you will most likely get it right, and be OK.


If you want to sell in the EU, you must prove that your product is safe. That is why you must sign a "declaration of conformity."
When you sign this declaration, you don't sign for being compliant with a standard, as many believe. You sign for being compliant with the LVD.

The funny thing about this, is that it is usually possible to be legally in compliance with a directive without any relation between the product and any standard.

When you sign this "declaration of conformity" you must also tell why you think you are OK. This is why you will have to list the relavant standards you have used. But, it is possible to skip standards in most instances. Then you must prove your product is safe in another way. It is sometimes done, but mostly for other directives than the LVD becaude of the cost and difficulties involved.

Because the LVD is based on "function", it is sometimes possible to "cherry-pick" standards without being caught for wrong-doing. They do so on AV-equipment and office equipment for instance.

I have got some spoken info on parts of the upcoming combined standard for AV and office equipment. It is not the final version, so it can be something different in the final version. I was told that they have shaved off 1 mm on each of the 4 / 5 mm distances that has created so much noise...
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #126 on: August 01, 2017, 09:06:31 pm »
I think you'll find a metal case is OK standardswise provided that all mains wiring is double insulated. That is, the normal wiring insulation plus a boot or sheath of some kind. Looks like this has some parts that are not even single insulated though, so I doubt if it would get approval.

Actually the electrical standards situation in the EU is a mess. Each country has its own rules, and even where an item meets the spec of one country it may have to be retested for sale in another.  This is a deliberate policy to try to block imports from other EU members.

Audio separates should be grounded at one point in the stack, but not multiply grounded because doing so effectively creates a one-turn transformer which picks up hum. Safest solution here though, is a stout grounding wire on the case. I'd also think about some heatshrink or a boot over those open live connections.  >:D
 

Offline hermit

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #127 on: August 01, 2017, 09:22:01 pm »
I think you'll find a metal case
At first glance I read mental case.  I think this thread is getting to me.  :palm:
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #128 on: August 01, 2017, 11:48:36 pm »
Wow, this thread has generated some discussion and raised some interesting points along the way and basically as I see it, taking away people's different interpretation of the rules and guidelines people who like me have come from the electrical faction want to see the case grounded and those from the electronics faction say that it not designed to be grounded and I for one can see both sides of the discussion. It really makes some interesting reading and that is the good thing about this forum is that there is a healthy participation in most threads and the trick is to keep an open mind and be prepared to have your own stance on issues altered  as a result of the sometimes overwhelming evidence in support of one view or another.  :-+
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #129 on: August 02, 2017, 01:39:01 am »
It's been a great thread  :clap:

IMVHO: Once you join that component in it's stock form (unmodified) with the RCA connectors to the rest of the system,

it should satisfy electric and electronic minded concerned people and just work as it was designed to.

No shocks, no tingle, no hum,  :-+


...and no freaking out  :scared: :scared: :scared:

 

Offline John BTopic starter

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #130 on: August 02, 2017, 03:04:21 am »
the trick is to keep an open mind and be prepared to have your own stance on issues altered  as a result of the sometimes overwhelming evidence in support of one view or another.

Indeed, in the beginning I was fairly adamant that I would ground the device. Now, I think Ill leave the unit sitting on a metal pedestal that just so happens to be grounded.
 

Tac Eht Xilef

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #131 on: August 02, 2017, 04:10:50 am »
That grounding point is a place to connect the shields of screened cable, more than anything else. It's not a protective earth terminal. It's there for  EMC purposes.
How would you do that then? The cables all come pre terminated with suitable plugs, ie., RCA phono or DIN plugs and the shields are already soldered into the plugs?

Typically the turntable will have a separate EMC/signal "earth" wire, or even separate "earth" & "ground" connections (
). You also occasionally see the same on cassette decks, etc (I've even got an early CD player that came with one).
 

Offline jh15

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #132 on: August 02, 2017, 05:21:31 am »
* jh15 again throws water on the mating dogs.
Tek 575 curve trcr top shape, Tek 535, Tek 465. Tek 545 Hickok clone, Tesla Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P SBC, c-64's from club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15's. Heathkit ET- 3400a trainer&interface. Starlink pizza.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #133 on: August 02, 2017, 08:17:15 am »
* jh15 again throws water on the mating dogs.
Don't want any more puppies... :-DD
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #134 on: August 02, 2017, 10:39:27 am »
You don't get it Gyro, You really don't get it.

You don't want to understand what I say, and you do whatever you can to twist it as much as possible. Only you can tell why.



I HAVE been very specific about the prerequisite for when we can use the 4/5mm as a guide when we evaluate the risk for danger.

I HAVE been very specific about the impact the environment will have on safety. I even gave an example for how small changes can change everything.

I have NEVER claimed that these distances can be used as a guideline for new producs.

I have used them as an EXAMPLE for why normal mains voltages are usually not extremely dangerous as many seems to believe.



No need to tell me about contamination. I made a living out of repairing TVs long time ago. Heavy smokers without knowledge of vacuum cleaners are no strangers to me. But, I do really think I mentioned dustfree environment as a prerequisite, didn't I? Yes, I do really think I did so. Don't know why you bring it up again.



When it comes to transients: Yes, they exist. They have even considered them when they made the standards. The funny thing is that both office equipment and AV-equipment is meant to be used in the same category-II overvoltage environment. That is what you have in an office or a normal home, so the transients will be the same. Both types of equipment are usually permanently connected to mains as well. I guess you are aware of this?

The real difference between those two types of equipment, is the environment. This is why they increased the safety margins on AV-equipment. This is not the same as office equipment, or anything following that standard, is close to unsafe when used in the intended environment. I have said it several times, but again, you prefer to twist it as much as possible.



*

This is about Europe, but it seems like most countries follow this route when they upgrade their laws.


In Europe, safety for most electrical equipment is regulated by the Low Voltage Directive. The LVD is "the law" about this here.

The LVD says very little about specific technical things. The LVD is based on "function" instead of details. The LVD lists some "functions" that are vital for a product. Most important is (in free wording) "not cause damage to any person", "not cause any damage to animals" and "not cause any damage to buildings". Then, they say, it's up to you to figure out how to give these "functions" to your product.

They know this can be difficult, so they reach out an helping hand. They tell you that if you build your product in accordance to what is known as "harmonised standards" (those with a name beginning with EN), you will most likely get it right, and be OK.


If you want to sell in the EU, you must prove that your product is safe. That is why you must sign a "declaration of conformity."
When you sign this declaration, you don't sign for being compliant with a standard, as many believe. You sign for being compliant with the LVD.

The funny thing about this, is that it is usually possible to be legally in compliance with a directive without any relation between the product and any standard.

When you sign this "declaration of conformity" you must also tell why you think you are OK. This is why you will have to list the relavant standards you have used. But, it is possible to skip standards in most instances. Then you must prove your product is safe in another way. It is sometimes done, but mostly for other directives than the LVD becaude of the cost and difficulties involved.

Because the LVD is based on "function", it is sometimes possible to "cherry-pick" standards without being caught for wrong-doing. They do so on AV-equipment and office equipment for instance.

I have got some spoken info on parts of the upcoming combined standard for AV and office equipment. It is not the final version, so it can be something different in the final version. I was told that they have shaved off 1 mm on each of the 4 / 5 mm distances that has created so much noise...

Actually tronde, I think we are actually in violent agreement on many things, certainly some items in your post above. It's a shame that you didn't respond to my second email yesteray regarding the Legal aspect as this really is the crux of the matter from my perspective, I think you might have agreed with quite a lot of that.

I really do understand that you meant your 4/5mm is a "guide", I just don't think it helps with the Legal issues surrounding repair of the type of equipment this thread is about.

It seems clear that we are approaching this from different directions, me from the manufacturing background and you from the repairer(?). It seems unlikely that we will ever fully agree on this, I guess we will have to live with that.

You are correct that, in Europe, the Low voltage directiveis the 'blanket' safety requirement (let's not forget the EMC directive too), but it does rely to on equipment having met its specific prescribed EN safety standard. I am very familiar with the signing of the Declaration of Conformity. You sign implicitly for LVD (and EMC) conformity, but that Declaration does also explicitely specifiy the specific ENxxxx standards that the product complies with (and preferably has been independently tested against). [EDIT: See example in the attached link for reference: http://www.conformance.co.uk/info/declarationofcon.php# ]

As an aside, many countries outside the EU will also accept compliance to ENxxxx standards as an assurance of EMC / Safety performance. We shipped many products to the Middle East for instance and even some to Australia, also the Far East (manufactured there). North America of course is a different matter. Thankfully a market that was not of interest.

I think we both agree that metal cased or metal chassis Class II consumer is a 'special case' it is for me at least. You won't find its like in Industrial or, medical. Most IT equipment is also grounded metal case, either that or separate mains adaptor.

Being in a domestic environment makes it much more susceptible to foreign object insertion, liquid spills, other forms of contamination, as previously mentioned. To tell the truth, I have always been a little uncomfortable with them, even after designing them, however you must compete in the market. I have had frighting experiences of what can go wrong. As I mentioned, I have seen cases of all four mountings of an SMPS breaking off under mecanical shock (thankfully in prototype, but also seen in partial failures in other products). I have an innate distrust of SRBP board material being permitted in these products. I am uncomfortable with enlarged clearances being acceptable in place of intervening solid insulation. I am uncomfortable with the ventilation slot allowances, which can allow both introduction of slim (paperclips etc) conductive objects and airborn contaminants.

Such concerns probably make me very sensitive to people suggesting smaller clearances as "guides" to electical safely, especially in a thread where the OP is talking about this category of product. I agree with you completely about the physics of electrical breakdown for the dimensions you stated... just not in the specific context of this thread.

This (I think) just brings us to the Legal aspect of repair of this type of equipment. I think I stated my position very clearly in my last post. I don't think I need to add anything further.  Maybe you have some comments on that post, maybe not. I can't see any possibility of compromising on that position. If you have a different angle on this then I think we must agree to differ.

I hope that this goes some way towards clearing the air, or at least understanding between us, as this argument is counterproductive.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 11:21:42 am by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #135 on: August 02, 2017, 12:07:54 pm »
I think I summed it up very nicely when I said in post #109 "We are no different to other so called experts, some of whom cannot even agree on the correct way to make a cup of tea."

We see examples of that often on TV and in the newspapers and is especially true in the medical profession when 2 or more extremely well qualified doctors have differences of opinion on certain topics and this thread is no different.

My own personal preference is that if the metal enclosure contains voltages that are derived from being connected to the ac supply, irrespective of the line voltage, unless that power source is via a wall wart, (power supply unit) that converts it to DC at a lower voltage nominally 24v or less, is that the metal should be grounded.

I have over the years seen many examples of equipment from some respected makers around the world who presumably had designed their equipment to class II standards where the supply passes through nothing more than a rubber grommet to gain entry to the interior of the the item. Two names that spring to mind are Tech of Japan and Heathkit of USA, their kit is always in a metal case and not grounded. Tech as far as I'm aware only made electronic test gear such as signal generators and a lot of Heathkits products were aimed directly at the electronics world with much of their products being test gear as well. I have always automatically grounded these as a matter of my own personal safety if nothing else. 
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Online ebastler

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #136 on: August 02, 2017, 12:18:42 pm »
I think I summed it up very nicely when I said in post #109 "We are no different to other so called experts, some of whom cannot even agree on the correct way to make a cup of tea."

No, I think this thread is worse. We have several "experts" who insist on discussing how to brew coffee, how to serve tea in a public restaurant, or whatever.  ::)

Seriously, the present discussion is one of the most erratic ones I have seen on this forum yet -- not sure why.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 12:26:34 pm by ebastler »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #137 on: August 02, 2017, 12:22:50 pm »
Well I'm open to suggestions!  ::)
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #138 on: August 02, 2017, 01:24:22 pm »
That bit about Heathkit isn't quite fair. Heathkit started making kits in 1947. Three-prong plugs in the US didn't exist until the 1960's. They weren't mandated until about 1970 (with old 2-prong installs grandfathered forever), which of course covers the real heydey of Heathkit. Many of the more modern kits WERE designed with 3-prong plugs. And then Heathkit got out of the kit business, so any US standards more recent than 1990 are irrelevant if you're pointing at them.

Also, many of their more consumer-oriented kits had wood cases/cabinets with plastic knobs. The TV's, Organs, Stereos, and Clocks in particular.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #139 on: August 02, 2017, 01:52:14 pm »
That bit about Heathkit isn't quite fair. Heathkit started making kits in 1947. Three-prong plugs in the US didn't exist until the 1960's. They weren't mandated until about 1970 (with old 2-prong installs grandfathered forever), which of course covers the real heydey of Heathkit. Many of the more modern kits WERE designed with 3-prong plugs. And then Heathkit got out of the kit business, so any US standards more recent than 1990 are irrelevant if you're pointing at them.

Also, many of their more consumer-oriented kits had wood cases/cabinets with plastic knobs. The TV's, Organs, Stereos, and Clocks in particular.
Oops sorry, I wasn't implying that they were of the 2 pin era at all, this I just don't know, their kits that were destined for the UK market as far as I know were also of 2 core wiring and we have had 3 pin plugs for years now, in fact the earliest 3 pin plug and socket was made by  A. P. Lundberg & Sons of London around 1911 and in 1934 the 10th Edition of the IEE’s “Regulations for the Electrical Equipment of Buildings” introduced the requirement for all sockets to have an earth contact.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #140 on: August 02, 2017, 01:59:46 pm »
I think I summed it up very nicely when I said in post #109 "We are no different to other so called experts, some of whom cannot even agree on the correct way to make a cup of tea."

No, I think this thread is worse. We have several "experts" who insist on discussing how to brew coffee, how to serve tea in a public restaurant, or whatever.  ::)

I think actually that we are in agreement here aren't we?

Seriously, the present discussion is one of the most erratic ones I have seen on this forum yet -- not sure why.

Thats because everyone is passionate about their beliefs and thats is to be applauded surely?
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Offline tronde

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #141 on: August 02, 2017, 05:39:52 pm »

I hope that this goes some way towards clearing the air, or at least understanding between us, as this argument is counterproductive.

I think I understand why you made so many words out of many of my prevous posts, Gyro.

Please spend some time reading this post before you reach for your keybord.





When I read your latest long comment some dots join together.

How I see this evolving over time:

I wrote something.

You started to read, and when my text gave some meaning, you just dropped the rest of the text I wrote.

I say this, because what you write about differences in environment is almost exactly the same as I always have said. I wrote about many things that would invalidate the 4/5mm from being considered "safe", maybe I should have called it "not probably very dangerous" instead.

It just seems like you never read that part of what I wrote. Regardless of how I tried to express myself, It was just as those words never existed to you. This is how I feel it.

I must also say, that I don't think you deliberately dropped reading some parts of my text.



To me, it seems like you sometimes face some problems with reading text when it has extra words that can modify the meaning of the first part of it.

This is well known today, and it is believed that some 10-20% of male adults in the West thave some difficulties with this.

I don't write this to upset you, Gyro. I have since long time ago felt that you are a nice guy, and that you want to be nice to people around you.


I write this because I really feel you wold benefit from paying attention to your reading strategies. Reading strategies are usually not something we think about, they "just are there".

But, sometimes it can be beneficial to spend some time on them. Many people are not aware of them at all, and many do not see that they can improve their reading.


Since you seemed to misinterpret so much of what I wrote, and it caused so much noise, I do scincerely feel you should spend some time and see if some of this can have an origin in how you interpret text.


< peace >






You mention email(s ?). I have not got any emails about this. I never check the "allow send emails to me" button on forums, so I would not expect it to be possible sending some to me via the forum?

 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #142 on: August 03, 2017, 08:59:59 am »
Hi tronde,

Thanks for your reply. Be assured that I read it thoroughly.  :)

I've taken some time re-reading this thread in its entirety, and then couple of times more! I really recommend doing the same exercise.  It has certainly taken an interesting and wide ranging path from the OP's specific question.  I defy anyone to fully track who was disagreeing with who by the time it got to page 2! (singling out no names).

There was also a very large diversion into the subject of shock and safety risk associated with 240V mains in general. That one is probably worth a thread all of it's own, though one that I would probably give a wide berth. ;)


I did indeed find your qualifications to the 4/5mm figures on page 1 but they rapidly became lost beside the large font of the figures themselves in subsquent disagreements. That is until you put them in highlighted quotes on page 4 .


I certainly take on board your observations about my failing to fully read (maybe even being partially blind to) every detail of that you wrote. I will try to do better in future. I must get back into the habit of individually quoting particular points and phrases, both to ensure and demonstrate that I have read them. It's more effort but worth it to break up wall of text replies.

Re-reading the thread fully, without the emotion, it actually doesn't look as bad as I had feared. It has certainly dragged out more specific and detailed information than might have otherwise been the case. Hopefully of benefit to any who have the patience to read through in future.


Anyway, to the main order of business: <peace>


Yes sorry, I actually meant posts when I wrote emails - a slip of the brain! I haven't tried to email or PM you.

Chris

« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 09:17:09 am by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Grounding old equipment
« Reply #143 on: August 03, 2017, 11:34:01 am »
Hooray, peace is breaking out between these two gentlemen  :box:
All joking aside, personally I have learned a lot from these gentleman and I dare say, no doubt so have many others reading and maybe even contributing to this thread so it has not been in vain :-+
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