Hakko FX951 or JBC CD-2BE?

[Kuro]

If the Hakko was close in price to this new model from JBC, which would you pick and why? Not to start a war between the two brand's fanboys and -girls, but I'm familiar with Hakko, not at all with JBC, so I am curious which one has the best reputation here.

[RobertHolcombe]

I've not owned a Hakko station but have experience with both the Hakko 808 and FR-300 desoldering guns. I do own a Weller WESD51 which is roughly equivalent to a Hakko FX-888, but also own a bunch of JBC equipment.

Tip selection, replacement parts, and compatibility of the iron/tips/cartridges with other stations would be my major consideration. The JBC tools (eg T245 that you are considering) are pretty much universally supported by any station beyond the compact range - if you expand to a modular control unit you will have potentially saved yourself a bit of money in the long run by already investing in the iron and cartridges. I don't know how Hakko compares in that regard.

Personally I would choose JBC but only because of my experience with them thus far.

[nanofrog]

Given the similar pricing, I'd opt for the JBC as it's a better performer and availability in the EU is much better than Hakko.

Oh, you may be able to come in cheaper if you order from janelonline here in the US (they offer the 230V models & do business internationally).

[Kuro]

Thanks both for your replies! Sorry it took a while to get back here. In the mean time I did more studying on this forum, seems there are a few small glitches that made people unhappy with JBC (wobbling base) and the threads where Metcal vs JBC get 'fought out' are pretty informative too 

That said, the dealer that made the real nice offer on the JBC sent me a folder on another station he just got in, a Thermaltronics tmt9000s-2, for, you guessed it, the same price. 

He's not a good salesman, making his customers' choice harder. But although the majority here seems to prefer the Metcal/Thermaltronics system, I'm not sure I'd like to get multiple identical tips, but for different temperatures. And the exchanging of tips is not at all as nicely handled as with the JBC.

Anyway, from your replies and what I could find on the forum, the JBC votes seem quite overwhelmingly victorious over Hakko. Which is what I wanted to learn, as I don't really hear any negative points from either brand and users of the FX951 say they don't notice any difference in soldering between it and the CD-2BE.

@nanofrog, janelonline seems to be offline for the past few days.

One more question then: the dealer offers both the CD-2BE and CD-2SE. I thought the difference was the iron that came with it (T245 vs T210) that made the difference. But from the catalog, it seems the microsolder station only supplies 40W, whereas the BE model has 130W.

I was planning on getting either the FX951 or the CD-2BE, and later add to the CD-2BE a T210 handle. It was this option that really made the JBC interesting for me. I thought that was possible from what I read but now I'm not sure. Won't the T210 deliver too much thermal energy to sensitive components, when attached to the 130W powersupply? Unfortunately, I sent a query on another issue to JBC over a month ago, without reply, so I'm unsure they would get me a reply to this question in time for the offer's expiry.

Edit: let me rephrase that, I think I'm being stupid again: with JBC's system, which is determining the thermal power that can max be delivered to the tip, the powersupply or the specific tip?

[wraper]

But although the majority here seems to prefer the Metcal/Thermaltronics system

IMO this is your imagination.

[Kuro]

Possibly. But I've been reading a lot of threads and in those the 'Metcal club' seems to be quite large. I might have just been lead to those threads because of the searches I made. Still, even Hakko is now offering a Metcal clone, the FX-100.

Which makes me wonder what the future of tip support is for the 'other' types from Hakko. If the FX-100 takes off, will they continue to invest and R&D both systems?

[nanofrog]

That said, the dealer that made the real nice offer on the JBC sent me a folder on another station he just got in, a Thermaltronics tmt9000s-2, for, you guessed it, the same price. 

Do think about tip costs as part of your consideration, as well as availability.

I know JBC is widely available in the EU, but I'm not so sure about Thermaltronics (they're a relatively new company, founded by a few ex-Metcal employees when the patent expired).

He's not a good salesman, making his customers' choice harder. But although the majority here seems to prefer the Metcal/Thermaltronics system, I'm not sure I'd like to get multiple identical tips, but for different temperatures. And the exchanging of tips is not at all as nicely handled as with the JBC.

He may think he's helping, or it may have to do with the margins.

As per the bolded part, I'm calling .      Induction station users are just a particularly vocal group it seems.

They certainly work well, but they're not the end-all-be-all either. Their greatest feature is operators cannot change the temperatures, which is extremely useful in rework & production environments (i.e. process control). This is why you see stuff about lockout controls in the marketing literature on temperature controlled stations (i.e. physical keys or lockout codes).

Years ago when Metcal was first introduced to market, they did kick other brands offerings to the curb with a sore backside. But enough time has passed, the competition has created stations that not only keep up, but can actually outperform it (JBC in the latter case).

For a hobbyist/repair/prototyping bench however, a temperature controlled station is a better fit as less expensive to own as you don't have to duplicate tips just to change temps. Some temp controlled stations are even more flexible as well in regards to the number of tools/accessories you want/need (i.e. irons, tweezers, solder pot, preheater, ...).

Anyway, from your replies and what I could find on the forum, the JBC votes seem quite overwhelmingly victorious over Hakko. Which is what I wanted to learn, as I don't really hear any negative points from either brand and users of the FX951 say they don't notice any difference in soldering between it and the CD-2BE.

Actually, the JBC will outperform the FX-951 (the FX-951 is no slouch though). If you only stick to say 4 layers for example, you'd never notice it. It's when you hit the really demanding situations that you would (i.e. joints where the Hakko would fail without preheat). An 8+ layer board would probably be enough to prove it if you had both to test.

Here in the US, the Hakko can be had for ~ half the cost of a JBC Compact model however, which makes it an amazing value here. Unfortunately, this isn't the case in the rest of the world it seems.    Closest you can get to that price is an Ersa I-Con Nano or possibly the Hakko FX-950 (uses the same iron & cartridge tips as the FX-951, but has a knob for temp setting, and the stand isn't connected to the station).

@nanofrog, janelonline seems to be offline for the past few days.

It's working for me (just checked).

One more question then: the dealer offers both the CD-2BE and CD-2SE. I thought the difference was the iron that came with it (T245 vs T210) that made the difference. But from the catalog, it seems the microsolder station only supplies 40W, whereas the BE model has 130W.

I was planning on getting either the FX951 or the CD-2BE, and later add to the CD-2BE a T210 handle. It was this option that really made the JBC interesting for me. I thought that was possible from what I read but now I'm not sure. Won't the T210 deliver too much thermal energy to sensitive components, when attached to the 130W powersupply? Unfortunately, I sent a query on another issue to JBC over a month ago, without reply, so I'm unsure they would get me a reply to this question in time for the offer's expiry.

Get the model with the T245, as you'll use that iron far more frequently (T245 = general purpose, T210 = micro size & expected to be used with magnification). That said, the T245 cartridges have tips that will do very small SMD work, so you may not need a T210 at all.

As per the power differences, the stations deliver what the cartridges can use, which is why the versions with T210 irons are only rated at 40W. The T245 cartridges use more, and that 130W is peak, not nominal. It's the same transformer, and you can add a T210 at a later time if you find you need it.

BTW, the wobble issue was only a couple of users, and IIRC, they got their stations from the same vendor, Weidinger.de (i.e. pulled from the molds too quickly & shrank/deformed = bad batch).

[Kuro]

Do think about tip costs as part of your consideration, as well as availability.

I know JBC is widely available in the EU, but I'm not so sure about Thermaltronics (they're a relatively new company, founded by a few ex-Metcal employees when the patent expired).

Well, the tips for JBC are almost twice the cost of the tips of the Hakko, but I'm not going to buy dozens of tips anyway. Hakko does claim their tips last twice as long too.

I did have trouble finding dealers for Hakko, but the same is true for JBC. I found a dealer or two in Germany, one in Italy and one in the Netherlands. Haven't looked into Thermaltronics, not interested.

As per the bolded part, I'm calling .      Induction station users are just a particularly vocal group it seems.

That may be the case. I'm too new here to tell 

Actually, the JBC will outperform the FX-951 (the FX-951 is no slouch though). If you only stick to say 4 layers for example, you'd never notice it. It's when you hit the really demanding situations that you would (i.e. joints where the Hakko would fail without preheat). An 8+ layer board would probably be enough to prove it if you had both to test.

I'm not going to work on 8 layer boards anytime soon I expect. But I would like to get a decent station with proper long term availability of parts. I guess both the Hakko and JBC would fit the bill on that account.

Here in the US, the Hakko can be had for ~ half the cost of a JBC Compact model however, which makes it an amazing value here. Unfortunately, this isn't the case in the rest of the world it seems.    Closest you can get to that price is an Ersa I-Con Nano or possibly the Hakko FX-950 (uses the same iron & cartridge tips as the FX-951, but has a knob for temp setting, and the stand isn't connected to the station).

I just noticed Batter Fly has a special discount on the FX-951, but the price for me incl. taxes and shipping is still just 45 EUR less than the JBC. Plus I have to get a metal-sheep cleaner extra on the Hakko (I don't really like the stand on the FX-951, even the 'lowly' FX888D stand looks better)

The Ersa i-Con nano I can get for considerably less. But I put that one in the same league as the FX-888D, since the tips looked like the Hakko's (hollow short points to put over a thermal element in the handle). Did I miss anything?

It's working for me (just checked).

Connection timed out error here. Maybe a routing problem with my provider, but it's the only site I'm having trouble with.

Get the model with the T245, as you'll use that iron far more frequently (T245 = general purpose, T210 = micro size & expected to be used with magnification). That said, the T245 cartridges have tips that will do very small SMD work, so you may not need a T210 at all.

As per the power differences, the stations deliver what the cartridges can use, which is why the versions with T210 irons are only rated at 40W. The T245 cartridges use more, and that 130W is peak, not nominal. It's the same transformer, and you can add a T210 at a later time if you find you need it.

OK, thanks, that clears up a lot of things for my. Though Hakko also has micro handle, it costs a lot more than the JBC one.

BTW, the wobble issue was only a couple of users, and IIRC, they got their stations from the same vendor, Weidinger.de (i.e. pulled from the molds too quickly & shrank/deformed = bad batch).

Well, I put the big smiley at the end of my comment because I thought it all was rather nit-picking. And Weidinger is not my dealer 

Anyway, a big thanks to all of you and especially nanofrog for helping me out here! This is turning out to be a fun place where I can learn a lot,  to you guys!

[wblock]

Won't the T210 deliver too much thermal energy to sensitive components, when attached to the 130W powersupply? Unfortunately, I sent a query on another issue to JBC over a month ago, without reply, so I'm unsure they would get me a reply to this question in time for the offer's expiry.

Edit: let me rephrase that, I think I'm being stupid again: with JBC's system, which is determining the thermal power that can max be delivered to the tip, the powersupply or the specific tip?

The whole point is that these are temperature-controlled systems.  Set the station for the desired temperature, and it is going to deliver the power that is needed to keep the tip at that temperature.  Or put another way, just because it has a 130W power supply does not mean it will draw that much all the time.

I went with JBC, bought a couple of used older systems for less than the price of one new one.  I considered Metcal, but the JBC's temperature can be adjusted, while Metcal requires changing tips--if you have the tip for the desired temperature on hand.  If the choice was between Metcal and the FX-951, I would probably go with the FX-951 for the same reason.

[zapta]

One more question then: the dealer offers both the CD-2BE and CD-2SE. I thought the difference was the iron that came with it (T245 vs T210) that made the difference. But from the catalog, it seems the microsolder station only supplies 40W, whereas the BE model has 130W.

It was mentioned here once in one of the threads that JBC had two categories if solder stations, one that heats fast and one that is not as fast. The OP in that thread complaint that that was not clear to him from the JBC marketing material.

If you buy a JBC make sure to pick the one that you want.

[zapta]

Possibly. But I've been reading a lot of threads and in those the 'Metcal club' seems to be quite large. I might have just been lead to those threads because of the searches I made. Still, even Hakko is now offering a Metcal clone, the FX-100.

The fx 100 tip is very non compatible with metcal. Just using similar technology.

[wblock]

One more question then: the dealer offers both the CD-2BE and CD-2SE. I thought the difference was the iron that came with it (T245 vs T210) that made the difference. But from the catalog, it seems the microsolder station only supplies 40W, whereas the BE model has 130W.

It was mentioned here once in one of the threads that JBC had two categories if solder stations, one that heats fast and one that is not as fast. The OP in that thread complaint that that was not clear to him from the JBC marketing material.

If you buy a JBC make sure to pick the one that you want.

News to me.  As far as I know, they only have normal and micro stations.  The normal stations can use the normal size T245 or the smaller T210 handles and tips.  There is an even smaller micro station, don't know much about that one.

[nanofrog]

Well, the tips for JBC are almost twice the cost of the tips of the Hakko, but I'm not going to buy dozens of tips anyway. Hakko does claim their tips last twice as long too.

FWIW, Hakko's tips do last a long time with proper care. JBC's do to from what I've read here on the forum. Usage, solder & flux types, and care conditions being the same, tip life comes down to the thickness of the plating.

I'm not going to work on 8 layer boards anytime soon I expect. But I would like to get a decent station with proper long term availability of parts. I guess both the Hakko and JBC would fit the bill on that account.

You're correct. Both offer spares, and for a good amount of time after a particular station has been discontinued (in many cases, you're directed to newer P/N's, and they may even work better than the originals). 

I just noticed Batter Fly has a special discount on the FX-951, but the price for me incl. taxes and shipping is still just 45 EUR less than the JBC. Plus I have to get a metal-sheep cleaner extra on the Hakko (I don't really like the stand on the FX-951, even the 'lowly' FX888D stand looks better)

AFAIK, Batterfly is the least expensive source for Hakko in the EU. And as you've noticed, it's not much different in price than JBC. So between the two, I'd definitely go with JBC.

As per the stand, don't be put off by it, as it actually works quite well (angle is adjustable via a couple of screws).

The Ersa i-Con nano I can get for considerably less. But I put that one in the same league as the FX-888D, since the tips looked like the Hakko's (hollow short points to put over a thermal element in the handle). Did I miss anything?

Yes, you did. 

Although it doesn't use cartridge tips, t4he i-Con Nano performs far better than the FX-888D, has a LOT more features, and a nicer UI to use. Actually, it's not far off of the FX-951 I'd expect based on videos I've seen of it's performance. It's absolutely worth the money. So if you're not dead set on cartridge tip technology, this would warrant very serious consideration (it's truly an excellent station, and doubly so for the money in the EU market). Not to mention the tips are far cheaper, and of excellent quality (thick plating that lasts years and years according to owners here on the forum). 

OK, thanks, that clears up a lot of things for my. Though Hakko also has micro handle, it costs a lot more than the JBC one.

Keep in mind, the JBC will use the existing stand, while the FM-2032 uses a different stand than the FX-950 or FX-951 (assumes you want it to fit properly). You could use the existing FM-2027/8 stands, but it won't fit properly (the FM-2032 will wobble around). Not looked at the kit costs in the EU, but it's approximately 2x the cost of the JBC irons here in the US.

It was mentioned here once in one of the threads that JBC had two categories if solder stations, one that heats fast and one that is not as fast. The OP in that thread complaint that that was not clear to him from the JBC marketing material.

If you buy a JBC make sure to pick the one that you want.

News to me.  As far as I know, they only have normal and micro stations.  The normal stations can use the normal size T245 or the smaller T210 handles and tips.  There is an even smaller micro station, don't know much about that one.

Perhaps it was between the stations and wall-plug irons they offer, as the Compact and multiple Modular systems have the same thermal response. 

[RobertHolcombe]

It was mentioned here once in one of the threads that JBC had two categories if solder stations, one that heats fast and one that is not as fast. The OP in that thread complaint that that was not clear to him from the JBC marketing material.

If you buy a JBC make sure to pick the one that you want.

News to me.  As far as I know, they only have normal and micro stations.  The normal stations can use the normal size T245 or the smaller T210 handles and tips.  There is an even smaller micro station, don't know much about that one.

Perhaps it was between the stations and wall-plug irons they offer, as the Compact and multiple Modular systems have the same thermal response. 

I vaguely recall that thread - the issue someone had was that JBC advertise that their system can reach 350ºC from ambient in only 2 seconds. Its not false advertising but I think the poster felt they had been misled because it only applies to the very low thermal mass cartridges of the nano station, PA120, etc. The T245 takes around 5+ seconds in my experience.

[Kuro]

The Ersa i-Con nano I can get for considerably less. But I put that one in the same league as the FX-888D, since the tips looked like the Hakko's (hollow short points to put over a thermal element in the handle). Did I miss anything?

Yes, you did. 

Although it doesn't use cartridge tips, t4he i-Con Nano performs far better than the FX-888D, has a LOT more features, and a nicer UI to use. Actually, it's not far off of the FX-951 I'd expect based on videos I've seen of it's performance. It's absolutely worth the money. So if you're not dead set on cartridge tip technology, this would warrant very serious consideration (it's truly an excellent station, and doubly so for the money in the EU market). Not to mention the tips are far cheaper, and of excellent quality (thick plating that lasts years and years according to owners here on the forum). 

OK, so I missed something important (thanks for the heads up!) - let's fix that: I did a search on articles here for the Nano. People seem to be happy with their Ersa stations, but I did read a few points of critisism:
- handle gets bit uncomfortably hot after a few hours - this would really bother me
- no backlight on the display
- powerswitch on the back
- edit: forgot one: you need to manually wake the iron from standby, there's no detection in the stand or the handle. Bit of a nuisance that.

I'd like to add to that, from what I see: display at an angle where it might reflect working lights, so lack of backlight might really be a problem, and the handle is attached using a cheap connector, just to make it easy to swap a defective handle. Definitely not good enough to regularly remove the handle. I haven't got a permanent workbench, and having to put away the station with handle and powercable permanently attached is a bit of a nuisance.

Speaking of the handle: the handle alone costs 144 EUR, with the full Nano station costing 174 EUR. Either Ersa is squeezing its customers, or the Nano base and stand are really cheap.

And finally someone mentioned the handle's cable wasn't a silicone one. Not sure if this also meant it wasn't supple.

However, the positive side of this was I discovered the Ersa shop  , where the Nano is even a bit cheaper than with Amazon, and also they now have a special deal on the I-Con 1.

From what I found here on the forum, the I-Con 1 is the father of the Nano, but fixes all or almost all of the nuisances with the Nano: backlight, powerswitch in the front (nice knob for control, much better than buttons too!), handle and power cable separate with good connectors, (edit: and there's an accelerometer in the handle to detect when to get out of standby), and the handle does not get hot and is even a few EUR cheaper  Not to mention it is more powerful too.

Now if the handle's cable is supple and silicone, I have found a potential contender to the JBC. Price is a bit lower than the Hakko, but the total difference to the JBC is negligable, so cost-wise I consider them equal.

Nanofrog, hope you don't mind me expanding the question now: Hakko FX951 or JBC CD-2BE or Ersa I-Con 1?   

The JBC does have one advantage over both I think, but it's not really an issue for me: exchanging tips is real easy.

[wraper]

From what I found here on the forum, the I-Con 1 is the father of the Nano, but fixes all or almost all of the nuisances with the Nano: backlight, powerswitch in the front (nice knob for control, much better than buttons too!), handle and power cable separate with good connectors, and the handle does not get hot and is even a few EUR cheaper  Not to mention it is more powerful too.

I-CON 1 is newer than NANO. Basically it is an updated / stripped down version of I-CON or I-CON-1V with no special tools supported, i-tool only. They are not the same.
I-CON was the first station supporting I-tool soldering iron. Fully fledged station. Then cheaper I-CON Nano appeared, uses the same heating element but less max power is supplied by the base station and no movement sensor in the handpiece. Then I-CON pico appeared, basically the same electronics as nano but not grounded, not ESD safe and different heating element used. People say that handle overheats and plastic thread on the heating element wears out.
There is also I-CON 2, model as old as I-CON, with two tools supported simultaneously. Special tools and i-tool supported on the first channel, 2nd channel supports i-tool only.
Newest of all are
I-CON 1V (vario), I-CON 2V, which support new "VARIO" tools and old tools as well. I-CON 1 is of about the same age or probably a bit newer, as said before - striped down version.
Lets summarize I-CON != I-CON 1 != I-CON 1V but will work exactly the same when i-tool soldering iron is used, the difference is supported tools.

EDIT: Now I'm not sure which tools old I-CON do support. Recall that X-tool works with Digital 2000A and I-CON 2 only (and likely vario versions). As I-CON information seem to be removed or buried somewhere from the ersa website, hard to find now. But IIRC some forum member from Germany owned both I-CON and I-CON 1 and said they are not the same. Personally own only 2x of I-CON 2.

[nanofrog]

Nanofrog, hope you don't mind me expanding the question now: Hakko FX951 or JBC CD-2BE or Ersa I-Con 1?   

The JBC does have one advantage over both I think, but it's not really an issue for me: exchanging tips is real easy.

I'm glad wraper was able to fill in the differences  , as this is a new one to me (was familiar with the older i-CON and had seen literature on the Vario series, but they're typically out of budget for most, and those that are willing to spend that kind of money have other alternatives that may pull the buyer in that direction).

But if you only want to use the i-Tool iron, the stripped down I-CON 1 is a lot less expensive for the same soldering experience.  If you're after the ability to add more tools however, then either the i-CON 1V (or 2V) would be what you'd need to look at. And in the case of JBC, you'd need to look at the Modular line (base and stands are separate units).

Regarding the cartridge tech, it's not magic. The goal is to get the temp sensor closer to the working surface of the tip for faster sensing of a drop in temperature. Some manufacturers have gone to cartridges to accomplish this, while others have redesigned their heating elements and tips to accomplish the same goal (element might look like a sharpened pencil for example, and the tips fit it like a glove). So performance at this level is going to be close to one another. Other factors come into play, such as Total Cost of Ownership (TCO), ease of use, and ergonomics.

In the case of TCO, keep in mind that Ersa's tips are half the cost or less of JBC's C245 series cartridges for simple common shapes last I compared EU prices.

[wraper]

In the case of TCO, keep in mind that Ersa's tips are half the cost or less of JBC's C245 series cartridges for simple common shapes last I compared EU prices.

For common shapes it is more like 3-4 times less.

[Kuro]

Thanks for all the info. I'll need some time to get all the prices sorted and compared, of stations, tips, spare parts etc, and find more info on the Ersa. One reviewer on Amazon.de complains of a thick and stiff handle cable, and if there's anything I really can do without, it's that. So I'd better look into this. Homework time 

[nanofrog]

Thanks for all the info. I'll need some time to get all the prices sorted and compared, of stations, tips, spare parts etc, and find more info on the Ersa. One reviewer on Amazon.de complains of a thick and stiff handle cable, and if there's anything I really can do without, it's that. So I'd better look into this. Homework time 

Take the time you need, especially if you're not facing a deadline (i.e. hobbyist rather than a business owner).   

[zapta]

Thanks for all the info. I'll need some time to get all the prices sorted and compared, of stations, tips, spare parts etc, and find more info on the Ersa. One reviewer on Amazon.de complains of a thick and stiff handle cable, and if there's anything I really can do without, it's that. So I'd better look into this. Homework time 

Take the time you need, especially if you're not facing a deadline (i.e. hobbyist rather than a business owner).   

... And often it doesn't really matter. Most of the products mentioned here are probably just good enough.

[Kuro]

Well, homework is coming along nicely, but I'm stuck on a few things. So I'm back asking some questions (hopefully Ersa-expert Wraper is still reading this too)

When doing a cost comparison, I noticed the i-Con 1V and 2V cost exactly the same on the Ersa shop (incl i-Tool, around 448 EUR incl tax). That struck me as odd, they're (V version) supposed to be the version that accepts various tools, and the 2V has an extra output allowing 2 tools simultaneously. So the 2V should be more expensive, right? Add to this that the product description of the 1V lists all possible tools, but on the description of the 2V there's no such list. However, the 2V is offered as a set with various tools...

Can anyone clarify? Just to make sure I get this right: there's no reason whatsoever to get the 1V, just get the 2V?

Also, I noticed in videos of the i-Con stations that they don't hold temperature very well as in they overshoot the target temperature pretty wildly. Apparently, you can set this behaviour to react like this (very agressively) or to take it slower, but with less overshoot. This is quite different from the JBC I saw, but that wasn't a compact line station, so I can't compare it to the CD-2BE.

My question here is: how bad for soldering is this 'wild' temperature overshoot? Do you take this into account and set your target temperature lower? Or does it not matter at all - but why is JBC then putting so much effort and marketing into their temp stability? Curious noob wants to know 

[wraper]

My question here is: how bad for soldering is this 'wild' temperature overshoot? Do you take this into account and set your target temperature lower? Or does it not matter at all - but why is JBC then putting so much effort and marketing into their temp stability? Curious noob wants to know 

It is not unheard for JBC to manipulate the data, technically, they are not lying. Likely they took some best case scenario and then advertise it without mentioning conditions. ERSA has 3 power settings, lowest does not overshoot at all. IMO overshoot isn't a big issue. For example this document. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/disappointed-with-jbc/msg744939/#msg744939. Supposedly they are not lying about performance, but they rigged the test by using small ERSA chisel tip VS large JBC chisel cartridge.


JBC DO overshoot quiet a lot, regardless to what they may say.


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/need-a-new-soldering-station-)/msg223219/#msg223219

Since the ersa vid didn't go down to the same temp as the JBC vid, I went ahead and re-did my own test with the iron LCD display dropping to 110ºC by being dipped into water like in the JBC vid:

On low setting, took 6 seconds with 17ºC LCD/20ºC T/C overshoot
On med setting took 4 seconds with 23ºC LCD/29ºC T/C overshoot
On hi setting, it took 3 seconds with 65ºC LCD/54ºC T/C overshoot

[wraper]

I noticed the i-Con 1V and 2V cost exactly the same on the Ersa shop (incl i-Tool, around 448 EUR incl tax). That struck me as odd, they're (V version) supposed to be the version that accepts various tools, and the 2V has an extra output allowing 2 tools simultaneously. So the 2V should be more expensive, right? Add to this that the product description of the 1V lists all possible tools, but on the description of the 2V there's no such list. However, the 2V is offered as a set with various tools...

According to the ERSA website, they support exactly the same tools. Check connectable tools:
http://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-stations/produkt-details/i-con-1v.html
http://www.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-stations/produkt-details/i-con-2v.html
Note that for desoldering tool, additional vacuum pump is required.

[Kuro]

wraper, thanks a lot for the useful information! I'll keep in mind that marketing is untrustworthy to begin with  no matter who's the marketeer.

What I don't get though is why Ersa bothers with the 1V when they sell the 2V at the same price. Nobody's going to buy with the 1V anymore.

Wraper, since you're from Austria, I presume you speak German [Edit: my mistake, I'll translate]. In the 5th post counted from the bottom in http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/366726 (also mostly JBC vs i-Con), user Panorama states [edited here, I added an English translation because of my stupidly mistaking the Latvian flag for the Austrian  ]:
Ersa has probably seriously damaged their reputation with the RDS80. Because hobbyists like to buy cheap stuff, Ersa to them is the RDS80. That silly thing is identical to the LS80 from ELV, nothing more needs to be said. In direct comparison to the (seemingly holy) Weller Magnastat sleepyheads, the RDS80 is still better.

Sometime then Ersa also profit-optimized their tips, by making them from 2 parts pressed together. That doesn't hold long of course, and it doesnt' really transfer energy well either. However, there is another line of tips that are solid and a little shorter. Take some time to research this.

Poster Panorama then continues lauding the i-Con 2, so he's not an Ersa hater.

Unfortunately the poster does not state how to find the good tips and avoid the bad.

Have you heard of this? Is this correct and still an issue, and if so, are the Ersadur trustworthy or does it depend on what tip?

@nanofrog, janel is still not accessible to me. Now I get a firewall message:
This site has been blocked by the network administrator.
Block reason: Gateway GEO-IP Filter Alert
IP address: xx.xx.xx.xx
Connection initiated from country: Belgium

Seems they've had an attack from a PC over here. But the sysadmin isn't good enough to block just that PC or range. Oh well, they'll notice sooner or later.

In the mean time, homework is done  - an excercise in uselessness it seems, this does not make chosing any easier.

I looked for as many dealers for Hakko, JBC and Ersa that I could find, selected a package of the station with 5 common tips and compared prices incl. shipping. Putting them side by side, the cheapest is the Ersa i-Con 1 (limited to just one tool) at 360 EUR, the Hakko follows for around 460 EUR, and JBC CD-2BE and Ersa i-Con 1v/2v come in at 520 EUR. Leaving out the Ersa i-Con 1, the difference at this price level is negligable (though I do get an extra discount on the JBC, so for me there's even less difference)

The tips and accessories are also not that different in price. You don't have to buy sleeves for every tip with the Hakko, but it is convenient. For the Ersa buying the plastic screw for each tip really is necessary to make swapping tips possible with a hot iron. For the common tips, if you shop around a bit, the price difference is really not all that much, 15-20 EUR for Hakko without sleeve, 12-29 EUR with screw for Ersa, 25-35 EUR for JBC. Same with spare handles (60-70 EUR) or extra tools, with the exception being the Ersa handles that are 140 EUR and up.

Whatever simulation I run (what may I need in future, how many tips will I go through), the TCO is really not all that different. It seems to me these fellows keep close tabs on the prices of competitors and take as much as they can, not rocking the boat too much. No Hakko's at half the cost of JBC here. Bummer.

So I eliminated at least the Ersa Nano (too inconvenient in many ways) and the Hakko FX-951, not cheap enough, bloody annoying interface. That leaves the i-Con 2v and JBC CD-2BE. Both having their strenghts and weaknesses. Like zapta said, both will do. Maybe I should flip a coin 

[wraper]

RDS80 always was a low end station, don't know anything about that. I-CON is a completely different beast and is made in Germany. 102 series ersadur tips used by i-tool are most durable things on the market* You can do basically anything with them and they will withstand. In the worst case would need to buy a tip tinner and they will become like new. My oldest tips are 7 years old and are like new, I don't solder everyday, however 5000 joints per day a few times in a year do happen too.

*except PLCC blade which is awesome tip but easy to damage the coating on it's sharp point and it's internal copper will start to dissolve in solder. Therefore should be delicate to apply any mechanical stress on it. Basically you can make many thousands of solder joints, then accidentally apply the force to the sharp point bending it a bit, and it will dissolve in less than 500 solder joints.

[wraper]

Same with spare handles (60-70 EUR) or extra tools, with the exception being the Ersa handles that are 140 EUR and up.

Ersa handpiece include heating element. Heating element by itself costs about half of that. Also handle includes MCU and movement sensor. Temperature calibration is stored in the handle itself.

[Kuro]

Yes, the heating element is part of the handle, but it is also a part of every tip of JBC, so I'm not sure this makes the handles that much more expensive. I think the electronics like the accelerometer and calibration inside the handle are all what make it expensive. And from what I have read, they do occasionally fail. And I have not found a handle without heating element on the Ersa shop - if the handle fails, you could recover the working heating element, but that it seems is not an option. Still, I don't expect handles to fail every year or so.

I'm more worried about changing tips when the iron is hot - you have to shove the tip over the heating element with sensor at the top. Is that difficult? Any chance you damage the heating element?

[wraper]

Yes, the heating element is part of the handle, but it is also a part of every tip of JBC, so I'm not sure this makes the handles that much more expensive. I think the electronics like the accelerometer and calibration inside the handle are all what make it expensive. And from what I have read, they do occasionally fail. And I have not found a handle without heating element on the Ersa shop - if the handle fails, you could recover the working heating element, but that it seems is not an option. Still, I don't expect handles to fail every year or so.

I'm more worried about changing tips when the iron is hot - you have to shove the tip over the heating element with sensor at the top. Is that difficult? Any chance you damage the heating element?

I change the tips while it's hot, but I switch off the station for a short moment because otherwise heating element can start glowing red. Replacing the tip takes less than 10 seconds for me.

[wblock]

So I eliminated at least the Ersa Nano (too inconvenient in many ways) and the Hakko FX-951, not cheap enough, bloody annoying interface. That leaves the i-Con 2v and JBC CD-2BE. Both having their strenghts and weaknesses. Like zapta said, both will do. Maybe I should flip a coin 

Buy both from a good dealer and return the one you like less.  Then you would have a chance to actually compare them in use.

[GreyWoolfe]

Just to put a fly in the ointment, don't kick the 951 to the curb solely based on interface.  I mentioned in another thread that I almost never change the temp on mine.  I set the temp to 650F and basically leave it there.  I have chisels up to 3.2mm so I can put some heat down.  I very rarely solder bigger wires together so I haven't had to adjust the temp but once or twice.  When I bought my 951, I got extra tips and a sleeve for each one, but that was my choice, the tips come out of the sleeve/wand easily enough.

[wraper]

Just to put a fly in the ointment, don't kick the 951 to the curb solely based on interface.  I mentioned in another thread that I almost never change the temp on mine.  I set the temp to 650F and basically leave it there.  I have chisels up to 3.2mm so I can put some heat down.  I very rarely solder bigger wires together so I haven't had to adjust the temp but once or twice.  When I bought my 951, I got extra tips and a sleeve for each one, but that was my choice, the tips come out of the sleeve/wand easily enough.

In USA you can cope with bad interface because it has very good price/performance ratio. In Europe, Hakko price sucks, so there is little point buying one, even if the interface was good.

[Kuro]

In USA you can cope with bad interface because it has very good price/performance ratio. In Europe, Hakko price sucks, so there is little point buying one, even if the interface was good.

This. Unfortunately.

[GreyWoolfe]

Just to put a fly in the ointment, don't kick the 951 to the curb solely based on interface.  I mentioned in another thread that I almost never change the temp on mine.  I set the temp to 650F and basically leave it there.  I have chisels up to 3.2mm so I can put some heat down.  I very rarely solder bigger wires together so I haven't had to adjust the temp but once or twice.  When I bought my 951, I got extra tips and a sleeve for each one, but that was my choice, the tips come out of the sleeve/wand easily enough.

In USA you can cope with bad interface because it has very good price/performance ratio. In Europe, Hakko price sucks, so there is little point buying one, even if the interface was good.

And that really is a shame.  When I was looking, I did comparisons.  With the EEVBlog discount on TEquipment.net, I was all in with the 951, 5 tips, 4 sleeves and an extra brass curls for $286 USD.  The JBC was $170 USD more without any tips.  For me, that was a no brainer.  It really sucks that everyone over on the other side of the pond gets hammered on prices and then pays VAT or GST or whatever.  I am thankful to live here so I can actually afford some nice stuff.

[Kuro]

Ah, let's talk again after 11/8 

[TheBay]

I tried to use my FX-951 out in the field the other week, gas iron was broken (Cheap gas contamination),
so tried it on a inverter in my car, which although a decent model is a modified sine wave not a pure sine wave, however the FX-951 would not work properly!

The circuitry must rely on mains frequency for timing, it was constantly under reading and over reading and took me an age of faffing around to get the iron heated up

Although this is an unusual case, it made me think!, I will try my Weller WSD 80 on it this week out of curiosity.

[Kuro]

Well, still haven't made up my mind. I'm leaning towards the i-Con, but damn, those spare parts are expensive (handles, controller board...)! For the JBC, I can't even find spares online, and I'm not getting any e-mail reply from either Ersa or JBC on questions I asked as a consumer. I take it they don't give a damn about consumer clients. Not making up my mind yet made me look and read further, leading to more questions, sorry 

Anyway, looking around on the JBC site, I found this page: http://www.jbctools.com/blog/form/

I thought sleep time and temperature was user configurable on the CD-2BE, but this seems to suggest otherwise. Anyone reading this and owning or using such a station, please chime in!

Also, with support potentially an issue, what is the consensus on the reliability of these stations from Ersa and JBC? I found several threads here and elsewhere with people having defective stations or purchasing such stations off Ebay for parts. So it's not like they're indestructable    The question is, how often do they break down? The old Weller analog station my dad has is decades old, still runs. Can I expect the same life out of these modern stations?

Looking at Dave's teardown of his JBC and a user here on the forum doing the same to the Ersa, the rather large heatsinks on the Ersa controller board caught my eye. No such cooling on the JBC, are they using a different way of controlling the power? Or is the JBC power supply unit just allowed to run a bit hotter?

Edit: another interesting thing: I visited tons of German webshops, mostly geared towards pro customers. I'd have expected German brands to be top, but most actually have JBC or Metcal as their flagships, and a whole lot of them don't even offer Ersa. That is peculiar, not only because Ersa is German, but because it really isn't a small time player, they design and manufacture large soldering assembly line machines as well. So why don't they have the home team advantage? They even cost less than the JBCs. Profit margins for the dealers? Just that?

[wraper]

The only part I heard to fail in (old) I-CON is triac, which you can easily replace. Probably they use different triac model by this time, especially in updated "V" models.

[MarkM]

I've had the older JBC CD-1BB for 5+ years.  The station still works great and even the stock tips still work like new.  You can set the sleep temp, as I have mine at 90c.  That sucks about support not getting back to you.  I haven't had any issues with it, so I haven't had a reason to contact them.

As far as the FX951 goes, I don't see how they could really be compared, TBH.  The tips from what I remember are way over priced as well.  Everyone I've known with one replaced them with something better.  The JBC is in a different league, really.  I've spent around $10k on equipment over the years and I've been the happiest with CD-1BB. 

I would say the FM203(this was years ago) would be a better comparison.  My CD-1BB doesn't work with other attachments like the FM203. Might want to check on that.  That's the real drawback, IMHO.  I could really use some tweezers and a proper desoldering gun sometimes.  Eventually I'll upgrade.

[nanofrog]

Anyway, looking around on the JBC site, I found this page: http://www.jbctools.com/blog/form/

Download the manual (here), and see what's adjustable.  My guess is, the link is for unlocking it beyond the factory programmed adjustment ranges.

As per a lack of customer service (email reply), it may have to do with corporate routing it to the dealer who handles Belgium, and said dealer dropped the ball. I've had this happen at any rate. So you might want to pick up the phone instead. 

[eKretz]

I did the temp overshoot testing on the Ersa linked earlier. My i-Con 1 has been flawless since I've owned it. No issues whatsoever with tips, iron or base unit. Basically, you shouldn't need to worry about spare parts cost IMO. I think the JBC is great too, but I prefer the Ersa's small tip setup to the JBC's cartridge setup.

[nanofrog]

As per buying some spare tip retainers, keep in mind you don't need one per tip; 3 - 4 more should be sufficient for most, if not all, of your tip change needs per soldering session IME. 

FWIW, I do the same with the Weller versions for my WSP80 iron (total of 4; 3 in the stand ready to go w/ tips I expect I'll need & 1 on the iron). Does the trick, and it certainly saved a lot of funds.