Author Topic: Help me understand BODE PLOT.  (Read 3155 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CacaoTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 26
  • Country: ph
Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« on: June 28, 2017, 07:16:09 am »
I have this simulation of a difference amplifier IC, INA149, on LTspice. I already tried googling it but I still cannot understand bode plot. Is the output correct? Thank you for the help.
Here's the plot and schem:
https://ibb.co/dUt03Q


 

Offline Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4694
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 08:04:07 am »
The top line is telling you how much the signal is attenuated (reduced in amplitude) vs frequency,

The bottom line is telling you how much the output signal is delayed vs the frequency,
 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao

Offline danadak

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1875
  • Country: us
  • Reactor Operator SSN-583, Retired EE
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 10:38:47 am »
Google "understanding bode plots", lots of good info, video out there.


Regards, Dana.
Love Cypress PSOC, ATTiny, Bit Slice, OpAmps, Oscilloscopes, and Analog Gurus like Pease, Miller, Widlar, Dobkin, obsessed with being an engineer
 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao

Offline rstofer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9889
  • Country: us
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 06:39:19 pm »
Given that the INA149 has a -3 db point at about 300 kHz, it's not clear to me why your circuit is -3 db down at 20 Hz.  I could be missing something...

Figure 13 here:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ina149.pdf

I don't understand the units of the right hand Y axis and I don't see V+in or V-in on the plot although they are listed.  Are the two AC supplies in phase with each other (net input of 0V)?

I don't have a model for the INA149 so I can't try to duplicate your setup.
 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao

Offline PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5125
  • Country: nl
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 06:57:54 pm »
Looks like V+in and V-in are both on top at the 0dB point. Also looks like there is (almost) no phase shift between the 2 inputs, resulting in almost no output. (-106dB?)
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao

Offline f5r5e5d

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 349
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 07:15:24 pm »
don't even try .AC until after you see correct operation in .TRAN and you don't have bad startup transients
 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao

Offline Dave

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1352
  • Country: si
  • I like to measure things.
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 07:15:51 pm »
Given that the INA149 has a -3 db point at about 300 kHz, it's not clear to me why your circuit is -3 db down at 20 Hz.  I could be missing something...
The dashed line in LTspice represents phase, not gain.

I think op is trying to measure CMRR with his setup, but the SPICE model of the amplifier might not be detailed enough to render a usable result.
<fellbuendel> it's arduino, you're not supposed to know anything about what you're doing
<fellbuendel> if you knew, you wouldn't be using it
 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao

Offline rstofer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9889
  • Country: us
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 09:36:43 pm »
Given that the INA149 has a -3 db point at about 300 kHz, it's not clear to me why your circuit is -3 db down at 20 Hz.  I could be missing something...
The dashed line in LTspice represents phase, not gain.

I think op is trying to measure CMRR with his setup, but the SPICE model of the amplifier might not be detailed enough to render a usable result.

Ah...  I don't know why people accept the default black background.  The red traces, if any, are also a problem on a black background.  My old eyes didn't even notice the dash in the line.
 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao

Offline CacaoTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 26
  • Country: ph
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2017, 11:14:59 am »
As far as I know the output must be 0dB because it has the same input but what I dont understand is that why the output is like that ( the phase line starts at -10db and the magnitude is at -105db). Is there something wrong with the set up?
 

Offline CacaoTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 26
  • Country: ph
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 11:19:17 am »
Given that the INA149 has a -3 db point at about 300 kHz, it's not clear to me why your circuit is -3 db down at 20 Hz.  I could be missing something...
The dashed line in LTspice represents phase, not gain.

I think op is trying to measure CMRR with his setup, but the SPICE model of the amplifier might not be detailed enough to render a usable result.

is it really because of the SPICE model that I am getting this output? or are there other things that I am wrong? Sorry Im kinda late on the reply
 

Offline PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5125
  • Country: nl
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2017, 11:22:55 am »
If you feed the +IN and -IN with the same signal you will not have any output.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao

Offline Damianos

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 268
  • Country: gr
Re: Help me understand BODE PLOT.
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 07:36:09 pm »
As far as I know the output must be 0dB because it has the same input but what I dont understand is that why the output is like that ( the phase line starts at -10db and the magnitude is at -105db). Is there something wrong with the set up?

The phase is not measured in dB, it is measured in degrees. So the phase starts at 0o and delays about 0.0065o at 1kHz.
The amplitude, because the inputs are shorted, is the result of the offset (of the used model). That is about -105dB in relation of the input voltage.



 
The following users thanked this post: Cacao


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf