Home Electric

[Falcon69]

Hello all!

I'm hoping for alittle help here.  This is a problem at my mother's house with her electricity.

Here's the background.

There's a plug (GFCI), Switch and fan in Bathroom A
There's a plug in Bathroom B
There's a plug outside on East Wall.

All Breakers are on and operational in panel box.

Now, one day, my father in law hooked up an extension cord to power probably way too much of his pond pumps/filters.  This particular wall plug, is only water proof when the plug lid is closed.  But, like a dumbass he is, he just left the extension cord plugged in ALL the time.  Well, It rained, like it did for many days before with no problems, but this particular day, it rained and poof, circuit blew.  Yes, there was discoloring on all these switches/plugs i mentioned above.

I removed all the plugs/switches so just bare wire was sticking out of the boxes.

No a single one of them had power to them, and yes, the breakers are on and power coming out of them.

This is a manufactured home, and I have no schematic of the wiring for the house.

So, you would think that maybe the GFCI outlet in Bathroom A had gone bad, and removing that and testing the wire behind it, the wire would have poer in it as long as the breaker was on. But no power there.  Using logical thinking, the power goes from panel box breaker, to GFCI, then to switch for fan and plug outside, then to plug in Bathroom B.  As this would be the shortest distance to run wire.  But, again, all wiring tested at the boxes of plugs/switches and none of them are live.  NONE OF THEM!

I'm stumped, I don't know what is going on. There is only one wall plug in the bathroom B, and the light and fan work just fine (operated by a switch each on the wall) Also, the light in the bathroom A also works, but the fan does not (switches on opposite side of bathroom).

Is it possible that somewhere inside the wall, when the plug shorted out from water/overload, that it popped the wire somewhere inside, leaving an open circuit, or wire unconnected?  I searched and could not find a junction box anywhere.  And ideas?

Appreciate all the help, and thank you.

[ignator]

Are you saying that the power from the CB panel to the first GFCI has no power?
If so, have you checked the output of that CB to see if has not failed internally.

NEC does not allow any splices except at junction boxes, and they can not be hidden inside of a wall. But manufactured homes probably does not use licensed electrician, and someone may have spliced a wire in the wall.  Hope you don't have to take paneling or other wall board/sheathing down to find the fault.

[IanB]

You have measured at the breakers in the panel, and you are sure they all have voltage on the output side?

First of all, since some circuits are working, do you have a table that links each breaker to the lights and wall outlets it powers? That would help you narrow down the particular breaker that powers the GFCI circuit.

If you know the particular circuit, and if that breaker definitely has voltage on the downstream side, and yet the wall boxes have no voltage, the inevitable conclusion is that there is a wiring fault between the breaker and the wall boxes. You will have to trace the wiring to find the fault or pull new wiring.

One thing to note is that if you remove all the sockets and switches from the wall boxes and leave the wires loose, then you will have broken the circuit for all downstream boxes. Only the box closest to the breaker (electrically) will be energized. Normally the box containing the GFCI should be first in the chain since power should go through the GFCI from input to output before heading to the other sockets.

[Falcon69]

yup, all the cb's are functioning as they should. the wires plugged int them are hot, and not when the breaker is tripped.

ya, manufactured homes suck.  i've already had to replace several of their melted cheap plastic wall plugs they use.  And by plastic, i mean plastic, not like todays plugs you get at like home depot that seem like they are a composite plastic. These switches and plugs inside this house are actually melted and warped when they go bad.

[Falcon69]

ya, i think the same way you do ianb

but, at the gfci box, no power at all.  For a brief moment today, I had some power on the tester (the light lit up) when I touched some wires at the switch. I am guessing it was maybe a capacitor for the fan discharging.

I am not sure which circuit breaker controls those 3 plugs and wall switch.  I will grab my tester tomorrow, and see if I get continuity.  Even if a wire arced and blew open (disconnect it self in the middle of the romex), then at least maybe the white (or black, whichever is the case) wire and or the bare copper wire is still in tact and I can use that to find which romex is leading into the panel box.

I can't afford to hire an electrician for this. That would probably cost at least a $1000 bucks for them to research and trace the problem and fix. Home electrical, is pretty basic stuff in my honest opinion.  But, I also understand the codes cities have in place for requiring a licensed electrician to wire homes.  There are some people out there who can't even wire up a standard plug properly.  *cough* or manufacture home companies *cough*

[IanB]

By the way, have you tried to determine the missing information from the other humans in the story? The whole thing smells a bit like a cover up.

Water ingress to mains wiring will not usually cause a bang and blown circuits. It will cause a bit of fizzling in an ordinary circuit, and will probably trip the GFCI silently in a protected circuit. So if you can find out what really happened, it might help to narrow down the location of the fault...

[IanB]

...for example, did someone drill a hole in a wall to fix a screw, and drill through a power cable?

[Falcon69]

They are not smart enough to handle tools to 'drill' anything.  Construction type work, even carpentry, is not in their level of knowledge.  I don't like talking about my parents that way, but they really are stupid when it comes to this stuff.

On visual inspection of the inside walls and outside, i don't see any visible signs that they may have 'drilled' through a romex wire on accident. 

I'll just have to try and trace down the wiring somehow. I don't have one of those wireless continuity testers, but I do have a 100ft of wire and my multi-meter.  I can set that on tone, and run the wire to another room/outside and try and trace where the romex in the walls are.  Maybe I can get lucky and find out what is going on.

I wish the state/city code would require these home manufacturers, whether an actual home or manufactured home, to include wiring schematics with the panel box, so you know what wire is ran in what walls for which switches/plugs.  Would make troubleshooting problems for both the home owner AND future electricians to track down problems.

[AG6QR]

Some thoughts...

You say there was discoloration on all the outlets?  That suggests a serious overload, causing heating.  An extension cord left in a pond wouldn't likely cause that; I'd expect it to trip the GFCI as soon as the current became detectable, long before it was enough to cause discoloration.  Or was the discoloration already there before the circuit failed?

Just a note: I have seen breakers go bad such that they appear to be on when in fact they are not powering the circuit.  So when you say "all breakers are on an operational in the panel box", have you verified that there is voltage appearing on the output of each one?  Obviously, any time you go into the panel, it's something you want to do carefully, with a properly protected meter, wearing proper protective clothing, insulated shoes, etc.  And those precautions are also reasonable even for a branch outlet circuit.

You've obviously got power some places and not others, so it's a matter of "divide and conquer" to narrow down where the failure is.  It's most likely to be in a breaker, GFCI, switch, or outlet box, but it could be in some wiring in between.  I'd be very careful to completely and totally rule out the easily accessible stuff which is most likely to fail before going into the inaccessible stuff (in-wall wiring) which is less likely to fail.  Good luck.

[Falcon69]

yes, i tested each output of each circuit breaker (where the black wire connects to the breaker), there is power.  It's not the breakers.

Every breaker is accounted for.  Meaning, we have discovered that when a breaker switches off, so does some light or plug somewhere in the house.

So this leads me to think that somewhere along the circuit, it's interrupted and not supplying power to the other 3 plugs and one switch, which controls a bathroom fan.

But, this has me baffled, and makes me think that the manufacture home electrician, when the house was built and wired, screwed up.  You would think that one of the Romex's inside the box where that GFCI was, would be the supply wire going straight to the breaker, but this is not the case.  I have a feeling, that somewhere, there is another plug in the house that is wired directly to the breaker, and then from there it goes to the GFCI.  ANd between that plug and the GFCI, the wiring is broken.

Why they wired it this way, I do not know, but if the GFCI was wired directly, then one of those breakers in the panel box would not be turning on/off any other plug/switch in the house.  But each breaker does do something as the wiring sits as it is now.

I think I need to start at the GFCI box, find out where that Romex goes, and back trace the wiring somehow till I find the problem.  I am guessing that the other Romex in the GFCI box is going to the switch, then from switch to outlet box outside, then from there to the switch in Bathroom B.  And that is where the wiring ends, as there is only one Romex going into the box in Bathroom B.

There are two Romex going into the GFCI box, Three Romex going into the switch box. There are two Romex going into the box outside, and one Romex going into the box in Bathroom B.

I will check this tomorrow with the multimeter, but I am guessing that the 3 wires in the switch box in bathroom b, next to the GFCI, one goes to fan, one goes to GFCI box, and the other to the outside box. Then, outside box to bathroom B.  So, with that said, I am guessing that the other wire going into GFCI box, is the supply power, and that is where the supply line is broken somewhere. I need to trace where that Romex goes.

Yes, the discoloring happened at the time the circuits stopped working. The extension cord was not left in a Pond.  However, a 6 way outlet strip had his pumps and filters plugged into it; probably overloading the circuit.  But, that is not all, I recently discovered that that outlet strip caught fire, half melted and sitting in a pool of water on the ground.  Like I said, my stepfather isn't too bright.  Using an indoor outlet strip outside, with no protection from the elements, that, and the lid for the outside plug on the wall was left unprotected as the extension cord was plugged in.  I have bought him an outdoor outlet strip with a timer, but, need to get the outside outlet working again so he can plug it all in properly, and yes, I purchased a new outdoor cover for that wall plug as well, so his extension cord can stay plugged in, even in the rain.

[IanB]

I have a feeling, that somewhere, there is another plug in the house that is wired directly to the breaker, and then from there it goes to the GFCI.  ANd between that plug and the GFCI, the wiring is broken.

It might be (if you are lucky) that at the location of that socket, inside the box itself, is where the wire is broken.

When I replaced the wall sockets in my house I found the original sockets had push fit connectors where the installer can just poke the wire in to save time, rather than hooking to a screw terminal. In at least one of these the spring had loosened and the wire just fell out of the hole. It doesn't take much of an overload on a poor connection like that to completely break it.

[Falcon69]

Huge possibility with these cheap arse plugs they used when building this house.  However, to try and trace down which plug is the culprit, may require hours of unscrewing and manually checking every plug in the entire house. *sigh* I got my work cut out for me tomorrow.

[xibalban]

Hey,

If you have a NCV device (like some multimeters have built-in), try tracing the live wire along the walls. You may just be able to detect the point of "fault".

My 2 cents!!

[Falcon69]

I don't have one of those, and they are hundreds, even thousands, of dollars to purchase.  I doubt I will find anywhere that rents them.

[Muttley Snickers]

A Non Contact Voltage Probe is about $20 or $50 for a Fluke, over here anyway, mentioned in a previous thread never trust your life on these thing's ever.

Take a roll of figure 8 cable, or long extension lead with you so you can check continuity from either end, disconnect feed from the fuse box first ( critical ). No Applied Voltage for this test. Never grab an electrical cable live or assumed dead with your hand or more particularly your thumb and forefinger, it will cause your muscle to tense and you cant let go if it happen's to be live.

I always flick a cable with one finger first just in case, even when using a known tested NCV Probe  (I'm still here and ghost's cant type), A cable tone generator or oscillator is ideal for this stuff and if you can narrow down the fault then it should minimise the time  that the sparky needs to be on site if at all.

Safety First and Assume Nothing.

Muttley

[Falcon69]

hmm, found this..

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sperry-LAN-Tracker-Wire-Tracer-ET64220/202520187

This should work.  I'll see if I can get my father-in-law to buy it in the morning.

It'd for low voltage wiring, i think, but, seeing how I'll have the circuit breakers off while tracing all this, it should work anyway?

There's only one youtube video I found using this, and he was tracing a doorbell wire down, and found the end of it behind a wall (out of visible sight).

I guess this device sends a signal down the wire, and the receiver picks it up through the wall. It stops lighting/beeping, when you come off the wire, etc.  So if the wire does have a break in it, it will find it.

What do you think?

Oh, and been doing alittle reading, the tone generated feature for continuity on my multi-meter probably won't work, as the electrical wire will exceed the ohm limit that the continuity tester can do.  I would have to set it for ohms, and try it that way.  So, I dont think it would work very well. I may have to buy the above item.

[IanB]

Oh, and been doing alittle reading, the tone generated feature for continuity on my multi-meter probably won't work, as the electrical wire will exceed the ohm limit that the continuity tester can do.

A continuity beeper will show continuity on 100's of feet of 14 AWG copper wire.

[Falcon69]

yes, but, that will only do part of what I may NEED to have done.  I need to find out exactly where these wires are going in the wall.  It will take me hours to pull the plugs out of the wall and connect the wire for the multimeter to run a continuity to find out where that Romex coming out of those boxes go. If the white/black wire inside the Romex itself has a break in it, I need to find out where it is behind the sheetrock. If there is a break in the wire in the wall, and one part is live, while the other is NOT, this is dangerous, and could set the house on fire.  I think my parents have been lucky so far.

I'm thinking that little Sperry tool will do it. If it doesn't do the job, I can always return it. If it does work, I'll keep it for future projects I may need it on. In fact, I have a problem in the house I'm renting right now that I may be able to use it on as well.

[Muttley Snickers]

The home depot thing should do the trick, we use the AEGIS CZ-1000 also called an F-Set, I collect these BTW.

When connected if you touch one mate of a connected pair the tone will be amplified, and if it is shorted you wont get a tone.

Muttley

[Falcon69]

will it detect through 5/8" T1-11 siding and 3/4" plywood as well? (the outside walls).

[SL4P]

...I'll just have to try and trace down the wiring somehow. I don't have one of those wireless continuity testers, but I do have a 100ft of wire and my multi-meter. ...

remember to tag the isolated circuits so that when you are 100ft away, granny doesn't turn the breaker back on !

[pickle9000]

If it's a double wide (as in moved in on 2 trailers) check the junction boxes usually in a closed or under the center of the building. Two beaker panels (one is a sub) is also possible.

It's of course possible to have a damaged wire in a wall but the odds are for it to be in a box. Connections must only be made inside boxes in North America. One possible way to damage a wire in a wall (and cause a fire) is to connect two breakers to one line that is not capable of carrying the current. It's possible with extension cords connected to a shorted device but again that would be extremely rare.

One other more common way to break a wire is in the strain relief leading into or out of a box. This could easily be your problem. The copper is fragile an a hard bend can cause a fracture.

[Muttley Snickers]

will it detect through 5/8" T1-11 siding and 3/4" plywood as well? (the outside walls).

I don't have a home depot one, but even the AEGIS would struggle through that stuff, that's why I mentioned some flex cable and a temporary run back to the generator for amplification of the tone.

Are the inside walls plaster, gyprock, uuummm........... wall board ?

Muttley

[Falcon69]

oh man!

I do NOT want to crawl under the house.  I am really skeered of spiders.  But yes, it is a double wide.  Where exactly do you think that junction box would be located?

The house panel box is next to the exterior door on the east side, about 12 feet from the north wall.

FYI, all the circuits that appeared to have gone bad, are on the east side of the double wide.  I'm thinking, because of this, they would not be located in that junction box that you speak of?

[Falcon69]

muttley,

appears to be cheap 3/8" sheetrock on the interior walls, 1/2" sheetrock on the exterior (inside house that is) walls.

[Muttley Snickers]

Sorry, we have different terms for the same stuff and same names for different stuff. have now confirmed we are discussing the same product. If it is made from gypsum, white powdery stuff like chalk that gets a big hole in it when you punch it if your frustrated.   

Then we would call that plaster board or gyprock and your newly acquired tone generator should work depending upon the proximity of the cables in relation to the wall face.

Muttley

Edit: Googled Sheetrock also known as Drywall/ Plaster Board/ Gyprock.   

[pickle9000]

oh man!

I do NOT want to crawl under the house.  I am really skeered of spiders.  But yes, it is a double wide.  Where exactly do you think that junction box would be located?

The house panel box is next to the exterior door on the east side, about 12 feet from the north wall.

FYI, all the circuits that appeared to have gone bad, are on the east side of the double wide.  I'm thinking, because of this, they would not be located in that junction box that you speak of?

It will be down the seam typically 10 ft from the outside edge (closest to the main breaker panel cut not always). It can also be in the ceiling but then you would have an access panel. Look in your closets along the center line around the base of the closet. You may see what appears to be an vent cover.

Before you get too deep in mark your breakers that do work and what they are connected to. Ideally mark the wires in the box, you would need to remove those after tracing. That way if you put a breaker in an incorrect position it won't cause any issues. Doubles (breaker doubles) need to go back in the same positions they came out of because of the box wiring.

Be careful. If you suspect a loose or broken wire and touch a box it can hurt in more ways than one. Turn the power off, poking around in a live box in an unusual position (laying down or on a ladder) can ruin your day. Having another person around is a must, even for a professional.

 

[pickle9000]

FYI, all the circuits that appeared to have gone bad, are on the east side of the double wide.  I'm thinking, because of this, they would not be located in that junction box that you speak of?

I wouldn't bet on it, but certainly possible.

[Muttley Snickers]

oh man!

I do NOT want to crawl under the house.  I am really skeered of spiders.

Down here we wrestle them to the ground until they tap out, fangs like star picket's, it's a sporting activity.

Muttley

PS; I have no idea of construction methods or mains cabling practice's in your country, just want to make that clearly understood, I have been,and still am a general cabler and field service technician for 30 odd year's.

pickle9000 is un- questionably far more suited to advise you than I am.

[tobor]

Something that occurred to me that you may want to check on.  From the description of the condition of the outlets and switches, it sounds like there was a longer term over current problem.  The breaker may have failed in the closed (on) position, or, some enterprising person may have "upgraded" the breaker from, say, a 15 amp to a 20 amp.  If the breaker is a 15 amp then you should be fine unless the breaker has failed "on".
  If there is a 20 amp, you may still be fine, bathrooms are often designed for 20 amp circuits, but I would verify that you have 12 gauge wire on the circuit.  The U.S. National Electric Code as I recall, mandates 12 gauge or larger (depending on length of the circuit) for 20 amps.  The smaller 14 gauge should only be used for 15 or fewer amp circuits.

[Muttley Snickers]

Gretting's tobor,

I think that he mentioned that he had tested the breakers, all a bit vague.

Another reminder to Falcon69, if you intend to conduct continuity, toning or back feeding a circuit from another circuit then you must disconnect the feed to the problem circuit from the fuse/ distribution box before hand. I would never trust Breakers, RCD's or MTB's with my life when diagnosing cabling, and if you are back feeding the problem circuit then cap off the cables at the box.

Disclaimer:
Advice given here should be used as a guide only, you really should get a licensed qualified electrical contractor if you haven't done this stuff before.

Muttley

 

[Falcon69]

UPDATE:

I bought the tool from Home Depot.  It worked.

I was able to trace the culprit to a plug, that was also on the same circuit in the hallway next to Bathroom A.  As well as the hallway light.  That plug and the hallway light worked, which is why I couldn't figure out which breaker operated the bathrooms. The plug was melted, and while it supplied power to anything plugged into it, it did not feed power to anything else further down the electrical line of that circuit.  Cheap Arse Plugs!

So, I replaced that plug and switch for the hallway light, and all is fine now.  All plugs work as intended.

This is the second plug in the house that has done this, although, the last one was easier to identify, as the melted and discoloring was on the visible outside of the plug. This one was not.

So, about $48 bucks in tools to trace the wires, and another $20 for plugs/switches/cover plates, and all is fine.  Not bad, $68 bucks to fix the problem.  I'm guessing an electrician would have charged around $500 to trouble shoot and fix the problems.

They tell me now that a plug behind the couch they've had problems with.  I may just make a count and replace all the plugs and switches in the house that I have not already replaced.  It seems these plugs that the manufacturer home factory uses, are a fire hazard as these plugs have been showing signs of fire and melting.

[Muttley Snickers]

Nice work, keep the tool they are very handy.   

Dont forget to thank those that contributed, not enough thanks to people on this forum.


Well Done

Muttley

[IanB]

Excellent, glad to hear it's sorted.

But just FYI, it's been confusing me a bit when you speak of "plugs" in these posts.

A plug is the thing on the end of a power cord with metal prongs on it. A socket is the thing with holes in it to receive a plug that is installed in the wall.

Replacing all the sockets in the house is a good idea. Although you may need to set aside some time. When I replaced all the wall sockets in my house with new high quality ones I was taken aback at how many there actually were, and how long it took to do the job.

[Falcon69]

I was just getting to that!

Thank You everyone for the help and suggestions!

Oh, and I never did find that junction box anywhere inside.  I'm so skeered of spiders, I wasn't even going to try and look for it under the house.

But, with that tool I bought, it traced all the wires through the walls, and none of them gave indication of leading to a junction box anywhere. But, it makes sense that there would be. as these homes are delivered in two pieces with the sheetrock (*cough* GYPSUM *cough*) is already on the inside walls. How else would they do the electric afterwards, as there is not crawl/attic space above to bring the wiring down after the two halves of the home are bolted together. Im sure it is there, but yoy want catch me under the house looking for it!

Spiders and Bees (only because I'm allergic) are pretty much the only thing I'm afraid of, that, and freaky looking people walking around your tent at night while you are camping in the great outdoors!

Oh, and IanB, you are correct, I should have said receptacles (or sockets) and not plugs.

Again, thank you everyone for the Advice, Suggestions, and help in this matter.  It has been solved! 

[ptricks]

Oh, and I never did find that junction box anywhere inside.  I'm so skeered of spiders, I wasn't even going to try and look for it under the house.

Having worked on lots of mobile homes I doubt they used a junction box. They usually place all the high current stuff on the same section as the breakers and panels leaving just 110/120VAC 15-20A stuff to be connected, often coming very close to the NEC limits. . I have seen designs where they just wire nut the wires of the second half and stuff them back into the wall. 

[Falcon69]

You are correct, the high voltage stuff is on that east side, where panel box is.  Stove/range, Heat pump, Dryer, Furnace.  All on the east side.

They aren't suppose to stuff wire in the walls like that without a junctionbox, but I bet you are right, and they do it anyway.   I've never worked at a manufacture home factory, but I bet they don't have an inspector running in there to check every home.

After knowing some state/city codes, from working on actual real homes, I can tell you this, these manufacturer homes won't pass some of those.  I'm guessing that these manufacturer homes comply with a whole different set of city/state codes.