How does one go about soldering surface mount stuff, it's just so tiny!

[Mechatrommer]

How do you get the chip to stay put,

if you think that is not neat... well... thats the life of us..

[Red Squirrel]

Most tutorials/videos seem to assume you have a board that has the pads already,  imagine that would be easier as there is a proper surface to solder it on.  I'm trying to prototype it so I can use in a bread board.   I'm not mass producing so it's not worthwhile for me to get boards made or buy all the stuff to etch my own.   I was thinking I could dead bug prototype but it's just so small, my hands are just not steady enough for that type of precision.  If I can find a way to precisely place wire strands on each pin with solder paste can I "reflow" with a heat gun, or will it just melt and the wires fall off?   If I could do that then I could glue it on piece of perf board and run leads to each pc pin.

[Iron Downey]

SMT is not a easy job for a beginner, especially for the small parts. Suggest you watch more solder video and practice more and one day you will be good at it. If you don't have the willing to do the soldering job and thought it's tough, you can take it to the professional guys. Many guys around the world can do this service.

[alsetalokin4017]

Breakout/adapter boards might be a good solution for some of the parts since you are prototyping. Solder paste and a hot air station (not a paint-removing hot air gun!) will also be very helpful.

These adapters will fit standard breadboards:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/498

[tggzzz]

I'm trying to prototype it so I can use in a bread board.   I'm not mass producing so it's not worthwhile for me to get boards made or buy all the stuff to etch my own. 

A 5cm*5cm double-sided PTH board complete with solder resist and silk screen costs $15, inc postage and 9 spares. You can get a lot of SMD components on that board. Pretty damn inexpensive.

Even more inexpensive if you design your own "SMD carrier" aka breakout aka adapter boards and put many of those in a 5cm*5cm space. Or, there are quite a few SMD prototyping boards on the market.

Having been making my own PCBs since the early 70s and being concerned about using them, I was wrong: SMDs are wonderful. https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/category/homebrew-pcbs/

Just try it and see.

[Mechatrommer]

Most tutorials/videos seem to assume you have a board that has the pads already,  imagine that would be easier as there is a proper surface to solder it on.  I'm trying to prototype it so I can use in a bread board.   I'm not mass producing so it's not worthwhile for me to get boards made or buy all the stuff to etch my own.   I was thinking I could dead bug prototype but it's just so small, my hands are just not steady enough for that type of precision.

then it will boils down to your physique ability. if you think you can then you can, if you think you cant then you cant...


though to solder on smaller devices, industry has produced many devices for that, vision aid, automated pick and place etc, but that contradicts with your lemma. the hobbiest alternatives for that is the thing like handheld or cheap bench top magnifier, helping hand, tweezer, pcb holder etc.

If I can find a way to precisely place wire strands on each pin with solder paste can I "reflow" with a heat gun, or will it just melt and the wires fall off?   

based on your description of skill, yes they will fall off. i have heat gun beside the iron, but imho i dont thing heat gun is the right thing for that. i'll pick up heat gun when the iron cannot do things like BGA, or the "pins underneath" type, but that is a very seldom occasion..

If I could do that then I could glue it on piece of perf board and run leads to each pc pin.

yes if that you think suits you, though that is not a common practice, at least for me. maybe 2 part glue 50 50 mix will do under the torture of heat? i dont know... but i'm thinking of double sided tape or capton and then a quick poke on each pins. a quick poke is an art by itself, if you havent learnt using the flux.

[sleemanj]

These adapters will fit standard breadboards:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/498

2.95 for a single breakout that only does SSOP is just a ridiculous price, not even I mark them up that much.

Aliexpress them if you can wait for it 10-20c US a piece, just search SSOP Adapter

[rstofer]

I had trouble finding many solder tip selections when I bought my Hakko so had to stick with one that it comes with, but did find lot of rip off ones off Amazon, just not official ones.  Are the rip offs worth while?  I know they're rip offs because there's like 10 in a package when 1 real tip is same price.   My solder is 0.8, suppose I can look at ordering a roll of smaller one.  Anything in particular I should look for? 

It really doesn't matter.  I use a blunt chisel tip and it works fine.

How do you get the chip to stay put, is there a glue I can use that won't melt at solder temps?   I suppose this would be easier if I had an actual circuit board but since I want to prototype and not actually get a board made I need a way to solder it to a perf board. I have solder paste as well if that might be easier.  Never worked with it before and don't have a reflow or toaster oven though.  Would heat gun work?  I can maybe look at hooking up my camera to HDMI with macro lens for magnification.  Though the slight video delay would make it a bit awkward I think.

For small packages, like resistors and caps, put solder paste on the pads, set the part and hold it down with tweezers while you hit the joint with the iron.

For big packages (ICs and such), position the part with tweezers, run a bead of flux along the pins, finalize the position and tack a corner.  Then tack an opposite corner.  Now you can drag solder the rest of the chip.  You can drag solder using conventional solder or you can run a small (VERY small) bead of solder paste over the pins.

I use both conventional solder and solder paste depending on which I think will be easier at the moment.

As a side note, how do you stop the PC pin plastic from melting when soldering PC pin headers?  Figured I'd start by making the 8 pin board and half of the pins just sink through plastic from the solder heat.

Get in, get the pad soldered and get out.  Don't hang around heating things up.

Here's where I get my solder paste and flux.  Buy some small needles (red and yellow) as well:
http://www.howardelectronics.com/

You need some good tweezers, both straight and curved
https://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=tweezers

I'm using an OptiVisor #10.  I had to buy the lens separately because the normal lens just didn't do what I wanted when checking for solder bridges.  I would love to have a microscope but they're a little too expensive.

Besides, I use a toaster oven more often than not!

For breadboarding awkward packages, see SchmartBoard for adapters:
http://schmartboard.com/

[Mechatrommer]

Most tutorials/videos seem to assume you have a board that has the pads already,  imagine that would be easier as there is a proper surface to solder it on.  I'm trying to prototype it so I can use in a bread board.   I'm not mass producing so it's not worthwhile for me to get boards made or buy all the stuff to etch my own.   I was thinking I could dead bug prototype but it's just so small, my hands are just not steady enough for that type of precision.

do it first, conclude later.

[dentaku]

Little adapters like this are great because they're easy to solder surface mount chips to (using flux helps a lot like people have been saying) and they can then have 0.1 inch pins attached to them so you can use it just like a trough hole part,
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/4L4AAOSwgQ9V2ZQD/$_35.JPG

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah I'm starting to think it may be easier to just bite the bullet and buy the break out boards or have some made.  Just need to find a place here in Canada that sells for half decent price.   The ones I found originally were 15 bucks or so which seems crazy.

I need to learn KICAD too, then I can just design a PCB panel with a whole bunch of different ones, make the cost of making a board made worthwhile.  Can always do a batch of whatever the manufacturer's  minimum order is and sell the rest.  I could fit quite a few on a single panel and just do all the most common smd footprints.

[alsetalokin4017]

Maybe it's already done for you:

http://dirtypcbs.com/view.php
http://dirtypcbs.com/view.php?share=1141&accesskey=d1aa8ebe5b0c791c73852e5fae27e8cd
http://dirtypcbs.com/view.php?share=3636&accesskey=ca2cde8369c1b9d4730ce3b1e8996b67

[TheDirty]

Yeah I'm starting to think it may be easier to just bite the bullet and buy the break out boards or have some made.  Just need to find a place here in Canada that sells for half decent price.   The ones I found originally were 15 bucks or so which seems crazy.

E-Bay / Aliexpress.  Anything local will be expensive.  Local has to pay real shipping or store space and doesn't sell anywhere near the volume of the Chinese sellers.

From many years ago:

[Red Squirrel]

That looks like an interesting site, did not figure some makers would make such low quantities. Wonder what customs would be like...  I'd have to try it some time.

Found these as well, and many others on ebay, might go that route:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/10pcs-TSSOP28-SSOP28-to-DIP28-Pinboard-SMD-to-DIP-Adapter-0-65-1-27mm-NEW-/171907106472?hash=item28067646a8:g:ILEAAOSwk5FUu0Sd

Beats trying to dead bug solder something so small! So think this is what I'll do is get/make boards.

[Mechatrommer]

Yeah I'm starting to think it may be easier to just bite the bullet and buy the break out boards or have some made.

why? freaked out looking at people tried to solder on a non-proper surface?

[tggzzz]

That looks like an interesting site, did not figure some makers would make such low quantities. Wonder what customs would be like...  I'd have to try it some time.

Not sure which site you mean, since you didn't use the "Quote" button when replying.

If you like traditional breadboarding, you might do worse than the Boardworx system; see http://www.boardworxsystem.com/index_files/stepbystep.htm for examples. I haven't tried them, but I like the ability to keep all components close to each other. Shame there isn't a solid ground plane on one side.

[tggzzz]

Little adapters like this are great because they're easy to solder surface mount chips to (using flux helps a lot like people have been saying) and they can then have 0.1 inch pins attached to them so you can use it just like a trough hole part,

One of the major advantages of SMD is that short leads = low inductance = faster without oscillations.
Another is that you can pack the components close together.

While appealing, breakouts boards destroy those advantages.

[Red Squirrel]

Sorta off topic but on subject of oscillations and situations where physical layout matters a lot, what frequencies does this become an issue? 

Also I was not clear about customs meant the border charges, ex: wonder if I get charged that when getting PCBs made outside Canada.   Been nailed with customs before buying from certain places.  A $700 bill in the mail 6 months after a purchase aint fun.  Oddly Ebay and Amazon seems to never have customs so I tend to order from there if ordering outside Canada.

[ZeTeX]

Using small human, small iron, small flux, small solder, small hands, small eyes..

[tggzzz]

Sorta off topic but on subject of oscillations and situations where physical layout matters a lot, what frequencies does this become an issue? 

It entirely depends on the circuit and components. For analogue, remember the old adage "amplifiers oscillate, oscillators won't". For digital circuits, the bit rate or clock rate is completely irrelevant; all that matters is the risetime.

Also I was not clear about customs meant the border charges, ex: wonder if I get charged that when getting PCBs made outside Canada.   Been nailed with customs before buying from certain places.  A $700 bill in the mail 6 months after a purchase aint fun.  Oddly Ebay and Amazon seems to never have customs so I tend to order from there if ordering outside Canada.

Will customs bother with a small package sent by China Post with a declared value of $5 or whatever? Something sent by UPS/Fedex is more likely to attract attention, and large companies are not going to want to get on the wrong side of the authorities.

[rstofer]

One of the major advantages of SMD is that short leads = low inductance = faster without oscillations.
Another is that you can pack the components close together.

While appealing, breakouts boards destroy those advantages.

So does breadboarding regardless of how you mount the parts.  You will never have the advantage of a 4 layer board with solid Vcc and Gnd planes.  Nor can you get the advantage of decoupling capacitors mounted right next to the Vcc pins with vias through to the gnd plane.

I use the SchmartBoard adapters or something similar from Canada
http://store.qkits.com/

[tggzzz]

One of the major advantages of SMD is that short leads = low inductance = faster without oscillations.
Another is that you can pack the components close together.

While appealing, breakouts boards destroy those advantages.

So does breadboarding regardless of how you mount the parts.  You will never have the advantage of a 4 layer board with solid Vcc and Gnd planes.  Nor can you get the advantage of decoupling capacitors mounted right next to the Vcc pins with vias through to the gnd plane.

I use the SchmartBoard adapters or something similar from Canada
http://store.qkits.com/

With wilderness breadboards, of course that's right. But there are other breadboarding techniques; see the famous AN-47 for example.

PCBs are often best, I don't think the OP is ready for them yet!

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah once I learn more and feel more confident to go straight to pcb I will do that, but for now I'm just messing around so need quick plug and play bread boarding.  Think I'll go ahead and order those ebay breakout boards.  Eventually I do want to look at making my own PCBs, as practice I'll probably make some break out boards or rather simple circuits and move from there. 

[tggzzz]

There are two aspects to designing your own PCBs  : knowing what constitutes a good PCB, and knowing which buttons to press in a schematic and layout application.

The first takes a lifetime, so you had better start now. The second isn't difficult but takes time and patience. Bite the bullet.

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah I'm currently in the process of figuring out Kicad.