Author Topic: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle  (Read 35340 times)

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Offline dmills

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2018, 06:26:22 pm »
One other gotcha....

Look at that PDU, does it fuse or breaker both legs of the outgoing circuit? My bet is that it does not (Being as EU generally has the "neutral" bonded to ground).

Now think about what happens if you run it off a split phase supply and some outgoing cable has a neutral/earth fault!

Regards, Dan.

 

Offline IanB

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2018, 06:27:18 pm »
This might explain the drastic price difference between the sockets over in Europe and the same sockets that say they're rated for North America.   The European ones are around 4 to 7 of their funky dollars (the L / F pound thing).   But the North American ones that I've seen are usually 100$ USD +.

I suspect the reason for the price difference in the USA is that they are a low volume, special import item, primarily with industrial applications. For these reasons I suspect they can charge a price premium. I doubt the actual quality is any different compared to a branded item in Europe.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 06:45:32 pm »
IMHO you would be well served by a good book on electrical wiring, I have a copy of this https://www.amazon.com/Wiring-House-5th-Pros/dp/162710674X and have found it to be well written and has a lot of helpful tips and tricks.

The breaker is there to protect the wire, so it's perfectly ok to use wire larger than required, for example 12AWG on a 15A breaker but you CANNOT go the other way, eg 14AWG on a 20A breaker. It's also perfectly ok to use a larger capacity circuit than required by the load, so a 40A circuit is just fine for a load only requiring 20A so long as the wire is adequately sized for the breaker, 8AWG for 40A.
 
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Offline tpowell1830

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 07:58:22 pm »
The reason why the professional electricians can't accommodate the plug is that they're not allowed to wire in the European socket.  They must use sockets that are allowed for permanent installations in North America, which are pretty much NEMA sockets.  So have them wire in a dryer socket (30A) or a range socket (40A), then construct an adapter made with a dryer or range plug to your European socket. 
If you go out early on garbage day with a set of wire cutters, you can get the plug extra cheap.  ;)
They can't do it because it's against the NEC?   As in I cannot legally do it either because it's against code?

This might explain the drastic price difference between the sockets over in Europe and the same sockets that say they're rated for North America.   The European ones are around 4 to 7 of their funky dollars (the L / F pound thing).   But the North American ones that I've seen are usually 100$ USD +.

Depends on your local laws, rules and regulations about legality... In my area, I am allowed to make changes in my house to electrical circuits, but, if a fire developed from a mistake in my wiring, AND the insurance company found out, the house is not covered under the rules of insurance, so therefore, I just ate it...

Since you are not knowledgeable about wiring, pay the $100 for the outlet, wire it up to local codes/standards/components, pay the electrician and save yourself all that headache.

Just my 2 cents...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 08:05:49 pm by tpowell1830 »
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 08:08:34 pm »
pay the electrician and save yourself all that headache.

And then you have the option:
1) Get a matching "dryer cord" to plug into the electrician-installed outlet, and make an "adapter cable" to the special euro-connector.
2) Exchange the US receptacle for the euro-connector.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2018, 08:13:17 pm »
I think the IEC connector will be available in two variants. One variant to be attached to the end of a flexible cable like an extension cord. The other variant to be wall mounted as a fixed installation. If it were me I would go with the extension cord/adapter approach, as it is overall more flexible (no pun intended).
 

Offline Spork SchivagoTopic starter

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2018, 08:31:22 pm »
IMHO you would be well served by a good book on electrical wiring, I have a copy of this https://www.amazon.com/Wiring-House-5th-Pros/dp/162710674X and have found it to be well written and has a lot of helpful tips and tricks.

The breaker is there to protect the wire, so it's perfectly ok to use wire larger than required, for example 12AWG on a 15A breaker but you CANNOT go the other way, eg 14AWG on a 20A breaker. It's also perfectly ok to use a larger capacity circuit than required by the load, so a 40A circuit is just fine for a load only requiring 20A so long as the wire is adequately sized for the breaker, 8AWG for 40A.
Yes, a good book on electrical wiring is much needed.   I have the DC down pretty well, but the AC I still struggle with.   Not so much the 120VAC or the 240VAC, but the 3 phase, stuff like that.

I wasn't getting hung up on the neutral / hot thing like IanB suspected.   It was the fact that the unit has two 16-amp breakers.    So I was looking at it like two totally different circuits inside the PDU, sharing a common ground.    When I say 16-amp, I believe, again, these are de-rated, so they'd be equivalent to our (USA) 20-amp.    I kept on thinking the neutral would power the bottom outlets, the L/+ would power the upper ones.   Or the L/+ would power the first breaker, the neutral the second.   That's what was messing with me.

I purchased a small book called Ugly's Electrical References, 2017 Edition, but that's a reference book.    Thanks for the link!    Once I get this ER thing taken care of and find out what's wrong with me, I'll sit down and learn more about the different types of wires.   I understand the gauges and what gauge to use for what size breaker, but there's information that I still lack.   For example, what's a grounding loop?   How to prevent a grounding loop?   And then this issue.   Running 120VAC down the neutral threw me for a loop at first, until I started thinking about it.   In reference to ground, we'll have 240VAC.   We'll have a complete path back to the panel, so the circuit will be complete.   I'll still be grounding the PDU with the external ground.   I just have to pick the wire now.

8/2 with ground or 8/3 without...in the technical drawing for the receptacle I'm purchasing (a wall-mount one), it show all three wires being stripped....so I'm leaning towards 8/3 without ground.   But I don't think it'll make a difference operational wise.

I'm not sure about the conduit though.   I want to mount the receptacle on the cement wall, like the other ones are, and run conduit up to the floor joists, then just run the wire through the first floor floor joists, like the electrician did.   But I'm not sure if the conduit at Home Depot and Lowes is going to match up to the European style outlet there...I might need some sort of adapter for that.
 

Offline Spork SchivagoTopic starter

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2018, 08:37:41 pm »
The reason why the professional electricians can't accommodate the plug is that they're not allowed to wire in the European socket.  They must use sockets that are allowed for permanent installations in North America, which are pretty much NEMA sockets.  So have them wire in a dryer socket (30A) or a range socket (40A), then construct an adapter made with a dryer or range plug to your European socket. 
If you go out early on garbage day with a set of wire cutters, you can get the plug extra cheap.  ;)
They can't do it because it's against the NEC?   As in I cannot legally do it either because it's against code?

This might explain the drastic price difference between the sockets over in Europe and the same sockets that say they're rated for North America.   The European ones are around 4 to 7 of their funky dollars (the L / F pound thing).   But the North American ones that I've seen are usually 100$ USD +.

Depends on your local laws, rules and regulations about legality... In my area, I am allowed to make changes in my house to electrical circuits, but, if a fire developed from a mistake in my wiring, AND the insurance company found out, the house is not covered under the rules of insurance, so therefore, I just ate it...

Since you are not knowledgeable about wiring, pay the $100 for the outlet, wire it up to local codes/standards/components, pay the electrician and save yourself all that headache.

Just my 2 cents...
I will admit that I lack knowledge in the NEC, but running some 8 gauge wire isn't going to be an issue.   I don't usually play with 240VAC, but when I do, I've always wired it the way everyone else does.    I've just never seen a receptacle that expected one 240VAC line, one neutral, one ground.   I think I'll be alright.

And in my county, we have to get a permit before we begin work like this and have it inspected, so I know it'll be up to code, one way or another.   I'd rather just make sure I purchase the proper stuff and have a full understanding of what I'm doing before I continue.   For example, if I hadn't come here and purchased that double pole 20-amp breaker, that would have never have passed the inspection, I would have wasted money on the 12/2 or 12/3, and the breaker, and would have to start all over again.

Thank you for the concern though.
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2018, 09:46:22 pm »
The reason why the professional electricians can't accommodate the plug is that they're not allowed to wire in the European socket.  They must use sockets that are allowed for permanent installations in North America, which are pretty much NEMA sockets.  So have them wire in a dryer socket (30A) or a range socket (40A), then construct an adapter made with a dryer or range plug to your European socket. 
If you go out early on garbage day with a set of wire cutters, you can get the plug extra cheap.  ;)
They can't do it because it's against the NEC?   As in I cannot legally do it either because it's against code?

This might explain the drastic price difference between the sockets over in Europe and the same sockets that say they're rated for North America.   The European ones are around 4 to 7 of their funky dollars (the L / F pound thing).   But the North American ones that I've seen are usually 100$ USD +.

Depends on your local laws, rules and regulations about legality... In my area, I am allowed to make changes in my house to electrical circuits, but, if a fire developed from a mistake in my wiring, AND the insurance company found out, the house is not covered under the rules of insurance, so therefore, I just ate it...

Since you are not knowledgeable about wiring, pay the $100 for the outlet, wire it up to local codes/standards/components, pay the electrician and save yourself all that headache.

Just my 2 cents...
I will admit that I lack knowledge in the NEC, but running some 8 gauge wire isn't going to be an issue.   I don't usually play with 240VAC, but when I do, I've always wired it the way everyone else does.    I've just never seen a receptacle that expected one 240VAC line, one neutral, one ground.   I think I'll be alright.

And in my county, we have to get a permit before we begin work like this and have it inspected, so I know it'll be up to code, one way or another.   I'd rather just make sure I purchase the proper stuff and have a full understanding of what I'm doing before I continue.   For example, if I hadn't come here and purchased that double pole 20-amp breaker, that would have never have passed the inspection, I would have wasted money on the 12/2 or 12/3, and the breaker, and would have to start all over again.

Thank you for the concern though.

It is probably my fault for not being clear, but what I was getting at is that the electrician will not wire up your Euro plug, however, he will wire up a receptacle, up to code and where you want it, if you use the US 40 amp receptacle, and then you can create the adapter cable as Mr. Crowley says here:

Quote
And then you have the option:
1) Get a matching "dryer cord" to plug into the electrician-installed outlet, and make an "adapter cable" to the special euro-connector.
2) Exchange the US receptacle for the euro-connector.

If you feel comfortable installing the standard US receptacle, no worries, you seemed confused about it in your posts. This gives you a standard US 220/240VAC receptacle power source that you might use for something else (if needed) using standard US plugs. You can make the adapter cable yourself to the Euro connector, which is fairly simple. I now understand your confusion about 240 VAC with neutral v. 220/240VAC with 2 wires. You seem to understand that now.

So then you would have a std US 220/240VAC receptacle, a std US plug on your adapter cable, the cable itself (probably SOOW style) to the Euro receptacle that plugs into your device.

Hope this helps...
PEACE===>T
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2018, 09:47:23 pm »
Why piss about with an adapter when you could just put the (in)appropriate plug on the cable?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 10:06:00 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline IanB

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2018, 10:05:17 pm »
Why piss about with an adapter when you could just put the (in)appropriate plug the cable?

Also some versions of the PDU come with detachable power cords.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2018, 10:06:25 pm »
Why piss about with an adapter when you could just put the (in)appropriate plug the cable?

Also some versions of the PDU come with detachable power cords.

Uncommon at these current ratings due to connector size.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2018, 10:08:19 pm »
One good reason to use an adapter is code compliance. As far as I know installing a foreign receptacle doesn't meet code, but it's perfectly legal to use an adapter. Whether or not this makes logical sense isn't really the issue, but if one decides to pay an electrician to install something it normally has to be done per code.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2018, 10:09:21 pm »
One good reason to use an adapter is code compliance. As far as I know installing a foreign receptacle doesn't meet code, but it's perfectly legal to use an adapter. Whether or not this makes logical sense isn't really the issue, but if one decides to pay an electrician to install something it normally has to be done per code.

... no, why not just remove the 'foreign' plug from the cable and just put one of your unfortunate contraptions on and be done with it? Shove the NEMA 6-30 or L6-30 on the cable and forget about playing adapter games.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2018, 12:01:44 am »

I'd void warranty if I replaced the plug. 
I very much doubt that this is true.
If the device is not useable without the original plug, it is not "fit for purpose".
Don't just assume things, check with both the manufacturer & your local laws re warranty.

Quote
The pics I uploaded have the L1 and Earth symbol (G), but doesn't list N.   This equipment cannot run off 120VAC by itself.   It's not one of those 120V or 240V.   It requires 200VAC - 240VAC to operate.   It's just a Power Distribution Unit for a server rack.   A horizontal, metered one, made by Hewlett Packard Enterprise (or at least they outsourced someone to make it for them).

In the past, many US manufacturers made equipment for 240volt service.
Amateur radio linear amplifiers are, most often designed for 240v supplies, as it is difficult to source enough
power from the 120v Mains.

All the older, (pre-SMPS) US made stuff used in 240v countries used either of two approaches:-
Two transformer primaries which could be used in parallel for 120v, or, in series for 240v.

In both cases, the 240v wiring was built to US standards for their "split phase" 240v system, & normally used a DPST switch &  fuses in both sides (hot & hot for the US system, & hence hot & neutral for, for instance, the Australian one)
Fusing the Neutral is technically against the rules in Oz, but there were plenty of  US sourced units used in this country which did this.

Australian or European equipment will operate quite happily in the USA, in that it is designed so that both sides are regarded as "hot" (that way, if your power socket is wired with A & N reversed, insulation ratings are maintained).

One trap, is that non US standard 240v stuff may not have a DPST switch, & will, almost certainly, only fuse the Active side of the Mains.

If your device is from HP, it probably does conform with US standards.

 

Offline Gregg

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2018, 04:07:01 am »
I have been following this thread since I posted and there is a lot of confusion that would be a lot clearer if you just posted exactly what it is that you are trying to power. If you don’t have it yet, post some links. 
I believe that all of the IEC 60309 plugs can be easily taken apart and removed from the power cord and reinstalled if necessary without anyone being the wiser.
It is good that you bought the 40 amp two pole breaker and are going to wire it with 8ga wire.  Most 120/240 volt breakers are only rated for continuous loads of 80% of their advertised rating.
If the device has sub breakers that are single pole, perhaps they can be changed to two pole.  Or post some pictures here with details and we may be able to help make it compliant in intent if not with actual approved breakers and wiring techniques. 
Is this going to be in some location that needs to be UL listed?  If so you are in for a rough and expensive time; I’ve been there.
 

Offline Bratster

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2018, 04:48:45 am »
He has already given the model of the device twice, it's a rack mount power distribution unit.

HPE P9S16A PDU

I think that is the elephant in the room that's not being talked about, will this device still be safe if it is fed two Lines as opposed to a line and a neutral.

With the OP so concerned about changing the plug voiding the warranty, I think he is missing the bigger issue, will feeding this pdu two lines void the warranty?

And besides that will it even be safe?


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Offline Gregg

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2018, 05:53:17 am »
Sorry I missed the actual device.  The problem is the single pole 16 amp breakers
I think I would have gone with two of the P9S13A PDUs and saved a lot of trouble
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2018, 07:55:55 am »
He has already given the model of the device twice, it's a rack mount power distribution unit.

HPE P9S16A PDU

I think that is the elephant in the room that's not being talked about, will this device still be safe if it is fed two Lines as opposed to a line and a neutral.

With the OP so concerned about changing the plug voiding the warranty, I think he is missing the bigger issue, will feeding this pdu two lines void the warranty?
I see no reason whatsoever for it to void the warranty.
The internal circuitry has no way of knowing whether it is being run off 240v between Active & Neutral, or 240v across the secondary of a pole transformer, & will operate in the same manner in both cases.

Quote

And besides that will it even be safe?
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The insulation between "hot" & ground will be under less stress (120v instead of 240v), so that will not cause any safety issues.

The only possible safety problem would be if the device only uses an SPST Mains switch, so that one leg of the supply will still present 120v w.r.t ground inside the device.

 

Offline Bratster

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2018, 03:44:50 pm »
He has already given the model of the device twice, it's a rack mount power distribution unit.

HPE P9S16A PDU

I think that is the elephant in the room that's not being talked about, will this device still be safe if it is fed two Lines as opposed to a line and a neutral.

With the OP so concerned about changing the plug voiding the warranty, I think he is missing the bigger issue, will feeding this pdu two lines void the warranty?
I see no reason whatsoever for it to void the warranty.
The internal circuitry has no way of knowing whether it is being run off 240v between Active & Neutral, or 240v across the secondary of a pole transformer, & will operate in the same manner in both cases.

Quote

And besides that will it even be safe?
Sent from my Moto x4 using Tapatalk

The insulation between "hot" & ground will be under less stress (120v instead of 240v), so that will not cause any safety issues.

The only possible safety problem would be if the device only uses an SPST Mains switch, so that one leg of the supply will still present 120v w.r.t ground inside the device.
Except this is not just one device, it is a power distribution unit, so it is supplying power to multiple devices.

If it is expecting only one hot line, and it only provides circuit protection on that one line, then you have 120v on the neutral wire of each outlet with the full 32-40amps available.



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Offline Towger

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2018, 05:02:00 pm »
There are a lot of worrying posts on this thread.

It is a PDU https://www.senetic.co.uk/product/P9S16A

He can't connect it to a two 240v phase supply without a neutral with its standard blue 32a plug, if the items plugged into it (if American and using C13/C14/C16 plugs) will expect 120v.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 05:30:03 pm by Towger »
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2018, 06:05:34 pm »
According to this document: https://h20195.www2.hpe.com/v2/GetDocument.aspx?docname=a00002909enw
That PDU has the option of 14 different input plugs (including flying leads with no plug attached)
HOWEVER, note that the same model with North American NEMA plugs are DE-RATED

Quote
NOTE: All Input Circuit Ratings for NA/JP models have been de-rated according to NEC requirements
https://h20195.www2.hpe.com/v2/GetDocument.aspx?docname=a00002909enw  page 8

It is not at all clear why an EU model was specified for use in North America.
It is not at all clear what kind of (presumably 230V) loads will be plugged into this PDU?

I see NO evidence that this product was designed to accomodate "split phase" power input.
I would NOT want to connect this PDU (or the downstream loads) which may very well assume single-phase, ground-potential neutral.
The specifications clearly state "SINGLE PHASE" even for the 200-208V and the 220-240V versions.

This is a much bigger can of worms than the simplistic question about wiring a receptacle.


Ref: https://h20195.www2.hpe.com/v2/GetDocument.aspx?docname=a00002909enw
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 06:14:29 pm by Richard Crowley »
 

Offline Spork SchivagoTopic starter

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2018, 06:48:06 pm »
Why piss about with an adapter when you could just put the (in)appropriate plug the cable?

Also some versions of the PDU come with detachable power cords.

This has a nut on the end, but I unscrew the nut, and the wire is not detachable.   I checked that first, hoping it was detachable.

 

Offline Spork SchivagoTopic starter

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2018, 06:52:23 pm »
One good reason to use an adapter is code compliance. As far as I know installing a foreign receptacle doesn't meet code, but it's perfectly legal to use an adapter. Whether or not this makes logical sense isn't really the issue, but if one decides to pay an electrician to install something it normally has to be done per code.

... no, why not just remove the 'foreign' plug from the cable and just put one of your unfortunate contraptions on and be done with it? Shove the NEMA 6-30 or L6-30 on the cable and forget about playing adapter games.

What gets me, this PDU isn't listed as a European PDU.   It's listed as International, and according to HPE, it _can_ be used in the USA or Europe...which makes me think perhaps that's why the neutral isn't listed as neutral on the physical plug itself, just Earth and L/+ is listed...it leans more towards a European PDU than a North American one though, if that makes sense.   The plug it's using is common over there, the built-in breakers show the derated values of the breakers, the plug itself shows the derated value of the plug (breakers shouldn't continuously handle a load more than 80% of what they're rated for, that 80% is called the derated value, and everything here shows the derated value (80% of 20 is 16, 80% of 40 is 32.   The two breakers both show 16-Amp, the plug shows 32-Amp)).
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: How to wire up a 240VAC receptacle
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2018, 06:54:29 pm »
It can be used in the USA - on a single phase 208V supply. Not a split-phase 240V one, preferably.

Quote
The plug it's using is common over there, the built-in breakers show the derated values of the breakers, the plug itself shows the derated value of the plug (breakers shouldn't continuously handle a load more than 80% of what they're rated for, that 80% is called the derated value, and everything here shows the derated value (80% of 20 is 16, 80% of 40 is 32.   The two breakers both show 16-Amp, the plug shows 32-Amp)).

Bollocks. That's the American approach to breakers and that is not how they are rated in the rest of the world. A 16A breaker carries 16A continuous. A 32A plug handles 32A continuous. Those are not deratings, they are ratings.
 


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