Iron upgrade, new learning curve?

[G7PSK]

I run my iron at 300 deg C. Those conical bits useless in my opinion, get a few chisel bits of various sizes.
It is also far easier to use solder paste for SMD work even if you are using an iron, that way you put the solder and flux on the board then you can put the component down and hold it in place with one hand and use the iron with the other.

[rob77]

i'm just saying the 300+C is a bit too high for many components.

Bullshit, standard iron temperature is around 350C.

datasheets say 260C max but it's a bullshit because Monkeh said so... 

[Monkeh]

i'm just saying the 300+C is a bit too high for many components.

Bullshit, standard iron temperature is around 350C.

datasheets say 260C max but it's a bullshit because Monkeh said so... 

So take a look at every soldering system out there. The ones with fixed temperatures, the ones with variable.. they all run >300C for normal soldering.

There are very few components which will be worried by this, and even the ones which really are sensitive to high temperatures simply require quick soldering in most cases. It takes time to heat them up.

My soldering iron runs nearly 400C so it must break things because rob77 said so...

[continuo]

Metcal SmartHeat tips run at fixed temperatures, and, as far as I know, there are no standard tips below 300°C available. "Temperature Sensitive" 600 series tips run at around 675F (357°C)... Someone should tell Metcal that their irons are to dangerous to be used on electronics 

[jitter]

i'm just saying the 300+C is a bit too high for many components.

Bullshit, standard iron temperature is around 350C.

datasheets say 260C max but it's a bullshit because Monkeh said so... 

I'd like to see that datasheet. Could you provide a link, please?

[GreyWoolfe]

Metcal SmartHeat tips run at fixed temperatures, and, as far as I know, there are no standard tips below 300°C available. "Temperature Sensitive" 600 series tips run at around 675F (357°C)... Someone should tell Metcal that their irons are to dangerous to be used on electronics 

Uh oh, I'm in trouble.  I just bought 3 600 series chisel tips for my MX-500   I guess I will have to go out back and cut my own switch.

[rob77]

i'm just saying the 300+C is a bit too high for many components.

Bullshit, standard iron temperature is around 350C.

datasheets say 260C max but it's a bullshit because Monkeh said so... 

I'd like to see that datasheet. Could you provide a link, please?

sure here they are:

examples of devices with 260C max lead temperature 1,6mm from case - LF353 my favorite jfet opamp and also the most jelybean opamp ever - LM358

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lf353.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm158-n.pdf

some devices with 300C max from TI (just to prove they don't have 260C everywhere). the jelybean jfet opamps TL08x and 555
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tl084.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ne555.pdf

[jitter]

Those specs are for reflow- and wave soldering processes. Look at the times: 10 to 60 seconds!
When hand soldering at 350 C for a couple of seconds per pin, you're not even going to come close.

Take a look at the datasheet of this miniature relay (page 3). These are solder profiles for the different types of process and almost all components have these (otherwise it would be difficult to make pcbs with a lot of different components).

In fact, very few components do no stand up to such a solder profile... guess what... we hand solder these instead at 350 C!

The amount of energy you put into a component does not depend only on the temperature, also on the time it takes.

I'm thinking about what kind of components we hand solder... certain types of precision capacitors, certain capacitors with plastics that melt easily, those Caddock (or other brand) ceramic thin film resistors that EEVblog did a video (#730) on (those pins are attached with solder), some relays that might otherwise break their seals... All in all very few.

[rob77]

Those specs are for reflow- and wave soldering processes. Look at the times: 10 to 60 seconds!
When hand soldering at 350 C for a couple of seconds per pin, you're not even going to come close.

sometimes manufacturers specify the hand soldering in datasheets as well and it usually 300,320 or i seen some parts even with 350C for 3 seconds...
but still doesn't change the facts i posted earlier -
1. for some components the 350C is too high
2. i'm using the temperatures as described earlier 250-320 - most of the time @ 270C.

and i'm not saying you'll destroy the parts with higher temperature - when i was a kid a was soldering with a soldering gun - that ramps up to 400C+ in seconds.

[jitter]

Most important thing is that you get a good join without overheating the component. If you can achieve that at a lower temperature, then that is fine. But, if that lower temperature should require more than a few seconds then you're likely putting more energy into that component than you would at a higher temperature. It's all a balance between time and temperature. Neither must be too long or too high.

[technix]

i'm just saying the 300+C is a bit too high for many components.

Bullshit, standard iron temperature is around 350C.

datasheets say 260C max but it's a bullshit because Monkeh said so... 

I'd like to see that datasheet. Could you provide a link, please?

sure here they are:

examples of devices with 260C max lead temperature 1,6mm from case - LF353 my favorite jfet opamp and also the most jelybean opamp ever - LM358

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lf353.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm158-n.pdf

some devices with 300C max from TI (just to prove they don't have 260C everywhere). the jelybean jfet opamps TL08x and 555
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tl084.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ne555.pdf

Oh noes... the M102v4-10 which motivated me to buy this soldering station uses one from the following as the op amp: LM358, TLC2272, LF353 and TL082... Should I just, from this point on, socket any chip I use on my boards, just to prevent overheating the pins of the chips?

By the way, excessive heat during soldering can damage a chip if done with excessive violence - I destroyed 4 SDB628 chips from this (and this not-so-trivial-to-design boost SMPS chip let the smoke out of a few inductors and even almost ignited itself once, with only 5W of input power ).

[MarkF]

I just looked up the specs on my goto Weller 25W iron.  The tip temperature is 750^oF (400^oC). 
Not what I expected.

[Monkeh]

1. for some components the 350C is too high

A very very very few. None of those you've listed.

2. i'm using the temperatures as described earlier 250-320 - most of the time @ 270C.

And you probably need to heat for longer to get up to temperature, to gain nothing.

[tautech]

I'm with Monkeh on this subject that is more complex than many might think.

Solder type, Tip type, Rework, Device thermal mass, Ground planes and the affect all these have on soldering ease.
Personally I rarely ever look at Temp settings and go by "feel" and flux "flash off".
How many of us have a properly Cal'ed solder station for perfect settings, not required for hobbyist work IMHO.
Combine this with a few different solder types of your preference and you can tie youself in a knot. 

Sure small SMD on SS PCB's need bugger all heat but a 4+ layer PCB with large components is a different matter. 
Had to get a domestic heat gun out the other day for a 30 pad socket removal when the rework hot air just wouldn't cut the mustard.

Horses for courses and practice. 

[KL27x]

My old iron tip can hold a copious amount of molten solder on it and have a hell lot of thermal mass, so the procedure of soldering SMT components are usually let the tip hold some solder, place the component on the board, touch the joint with the tip of the iron.

What you're describing is a type of drag soldering. The success of this type of soldering is highly dependent on tip shape. Some tips shapes are meant to hold solder (chisel/bevel), and some aren't.

A fine conical tip is the worst kind for this, since it will tend to suck solder away from the tip, up the shaft. With a blunter conical, this technique will work great. 0.2-0.5mm tips are my preference for conicals, for general board-level use.

Also if I accidentally got too much solder on a joint I can just scoop away the excess solder using that big heavy tip.

It sounds to me like you continually created your own tinned-face-only tip with your cheap iron, by applying solder to one spot and letting the rest of the tip oxidize.

If you like to drag solder, I recommend (besides using flux), see if you can find a bevel tip with a tinned face, only. This is denoted by "CF" in the part number. When you use this kind of tip, it holds solder right on the tip, where you want it. And paradoxically, it will suck excess solder out of the joint. So it applies solder, copiously, but leaves only a small amount. In fact,
if you slightly turn the beveled face away from the joint, it will magically remove any bridges left from a reflow oven, etc. Because the entire tinned surface is a flat disc, the surface tension of the molten solder acts like a directional vacuum that melts solder at the edges of the disc and pulls it towards the center (having the beveled tip keeps the surface roughly flat to the board, so this action doesn't have to work against gravity). With a tip like this on your iron, you can throw away your solder wick and desoldering pump. The downside of a CF tip is that it's directional and you can't feed solder onto the top/side while doing lots of solder-hungry connections. You have to lay your solder down on your bench and melt from the top, or you have to turn the tip to apply solder. It's sort of a dedicated tip. For lots of point to point soldering and thru hole parts where you're burning through spools of solder, it's more cumbersome that it's worth. For SMD, only, it can get most any job done, efficiently, with a small learning curve.



Some say a hollow core tip or a spoon tip are the key for drag soldering (CM). They don't make a CM for my iron, so I can't compare. The CF, tinned face-only, makes this technique foolproof.

[technix]

My old iron tip can hold a copious amount of molten solder on it and have a hell lot of thermal mass, so the procedure of soldering SMT components are usually let the tip hold some solder, place the component on the board, touch the joint with the tip of the iron.

What you're describing is a type of drag soldering. The success of this type of soldering is highly dependent on tip shape. Some tips shapes are meant to hold solder (chisel/bevel), and some aren't.

A fine conical tip is the worst kind for this, since it will tend to suck solder away from the tip, up the shaft. With a blunter conical, this technique will work great. 0.2-0.5mm tips are my preference for conicals, for general board-level use.

Also if I accidentally got too much solder on a joint I can just scoop away the excess solder using that big heavy tip.

It sounds to me like you continually created your own tinned-face-only tip with your cheap iron, by applying solder to one spot and letting the rest of the tip oxidize.

If you like to drag solder, I recommend (besides using flux), see if you can find a bevel tip with a tinned face, only. This is denoted by "CF" in the part number. When you use this kind of tip, it holds solder right on the tip, where you want it. And paradoxically, it will suck excess solder out of the joint. So it applies solder, copiously, but leaves only a small amount. In fact,
if you slightly turn the beveled face away from the joint, it will magically remove any bridges left from a reflow oven, etc. Because the entire tinned surface is a flat disc, the surface tension of the molten solder acts like a directional vacuum that melts solder at the edges of the disc and pulls it towards the center (having the beveled tip keeps the surface roughly flat to the board, so this action doesn't have to work against gravity). With a tip like this on your iron, you can throw away your solder wick and desoldering pump. The downside of a CF tip is that it's directional and you can't feed solder onto the top/side while doing lots of solder-hungry connections. You have to lay your solder down on your bench and melt from the top, or you have to turn the tip to apply solder. It's sort of a dedicated tip. For lots of point to point soldering and thru hole parts where you're burning through spools of solder, it's more cumbersome that it's worth. For SMD, only, it can get most any job done, efficiently, with a small learning curve.



Some say a hollow core tip or a spoon tip are the key for drag soldering (CM). They don't make a CM for my iron, so I can't compare. The CF, tinned face-only, makes this technique foolproof.

I gave up the conical tip in favor of a beveled tip and I love it - old tricks coming back again and the new tip, once again, have enough thermal mass to pull off that trick.

[MarkF]

Hakko has a nice page on tip selection for drag soldering.

[nanofrog]

Some say a hollow core tip or a spoon tip are the key for drag soldering (CM). They don't make a CM for my iron, so I can't compare. The CF, tinned face-only, makes this technique foolproof.

FWIW, I have both, and for SMD drag soldering, I prefer the spoon/hollowed versions (bit better at reducing bridges/drawing them out IME). I find the flat face/hoof takes a smidge more skill for drag soldering, but is more flexible regarding the tasks it can do.

And you really can continuously feed solder during the drag process with practice.  Feed the solder from the backside of the tip as you pull toward the solder & across the pins; this way you're feeding as you pull, and the excess solder stays on the tip's face (assuming you don't over-feed).

Hakko's site illustrates this rather well IMHO (I would add large metal tabs to that list).



BTW, what iron are you using that doesn't offer dedicated drag tips?

[m98]

As far as techniques, the following videos might help:

They show very good technique, but who applies that? I mean, they even clean the solder...

[MarkF]

As far as techniques, the following videos might help:

They show very good technique, but who applies that? I mean, they even clean the solder...

Just those that are going to the moon...

He has 5 videos on soldering.  His soldering process does seem to be over the top. 
But, the solder joints sure are pretty.  Makes you wonder if there is something to it.....

[wraper]

Those specs are for reflow- and wave soldering processes. Look at the times: 10 to 60 seconds!
When hand soldering at 350 C for a couple of seconds per pin, you're not even going to come close.

sometimes manufacturers specify the hand soldering in datasheets as well and it usually 300,320 or i seen some parts even with 350C for 3 seconds...
but still doesn't change the facts i posted earlier -
1. for some components the 350C is too high
2. i'm using the temperatures as described earlier 250-320 - most of the time @ 270C.

and i'm not saying you'll destroy the parts with higher temperature - when i was a kid a was soldering with a soldering gun - that ramps up to 400C+ in seconds.

You don't take into account that they specify solder, not tip temperature. Tip temperature != solder temperature.

[KL27x]

Doesn't matter how the temperature of the tip is set. On a sensitive component, like say an SMD ceramic resonator, you can kill it at just about any temperature that solder will reflow, nicely.

A soldering iron cannot control duration. It's up to the user. Using the appropriate tip and with the right experience and dexterity, you can solder anything despite lack of fine control over the temperature. I have looked at the temperature knob on my iron, never. It doesn't matter what the numbers say. I turn it up or down as I see fit by the results, not because of what the dial says.