Author Topic: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes  (Read 14373 times)

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Offline jc101

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2017, 09:10:26 am »
Further to my post above, we have Solar PV fitted and I an use Air Source Heat Pump to run my office, with a larger one in the house to heat/cool a conservatory and ground floor - no surges, spikes, transients recorded.

Even when the Power Networks chap pulled the main supply fuse with the Solar PV knocking out 2kW, no voltage spike was recorded - the UPS just cut on running some essential bits but it didn't show a large over voltage.

I know my normal mains is around 248v to 250v just because I'm close to the substation, they couldn't drop the tap down as those at the end of the run would be too low.  The only time it was out of limits UK Power Networks attended in an hour or so, and it was resolved a couple of hours after that.  They have also left loggers in the meter box outside for a week before to look for anything odd.  If the mains is out of spec, call your local network provider, they will *always* come and look as it's a basic safety issue and a sign of problem or impending problem (faulty cable).
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2017, 09:24:44 am »
:palm: There is no widespread damaging overvoltage. And how solar power in UK is supposed to be so different from other countries?

292V is ridiculous, and I serious suspect the meter is at fault. There's no way the mains can go to 292V without power company dispatching a team in no time. That would be some very serious power incident.

I would say 260V may be possible for remote locations since the substation will just set a higher preset voltage to compensate for high transmission resistance, and during low load period, voltage shoots up to maybe 260V or even 270V. But 292V is just ridiculous.

22% OV doesn't make any sense to me, even with PV inverters. They should learn how to maintain voltage, not dumping power and violate voltage rules. Also, when inverter verses grid, grid always wins.

No matter who's fault, the grid of the PV farms, you should report to your power company after checking your DMM.
To me it appears he pulled that 292 VAC figure out of his ass to justify problem with their crap products. Not from some real measurements.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2017, 07:07:43 pm »
Most mains switched mode power supplies should be able to withstand 283V, for a decent length of time, as the input components: rectifier, smoothing capacitor and switching transistor are usually rated to 400V. It isn't hard to design something capable of withstanding 292VAC but it shouldn't be necessary, as the mains voltage shouldn't get that high.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2017, 11:01:54 pm »
OP's topic also posted at EDA board's forums
 
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Offline capt bullshot

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2017, 10:56:30 am »
I've got another suspicion:
treez didn't tell which component failed, maybe it was a MOV. If so: they usually don't fail from mains overvoltage (mostly because such overvoltage is rare), but from accumulated degradation by transients or surges. It's their "normal" end of life, they can only stand a certain amount of absorbed energy, if this is exceeded, they fail at nominal voltage with a nice boom if not otherwise protected.
Safety devices hinder evolution
 
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Offline hermit

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2017, 04:08:29 pm »
I've got another suspicion:
treez didn't tell which component failed, maybe it was a MOV. If so: they usually don't fail from mains overvoltage (mostly because such overvoltage is rare), but from accumulated degradation by transients or surges. It's their "normal" end of life, they can only stand a certain amount of absorbed energy, if this is exceeded, they fail at nominal voltage with a nice boom if not otherwise protected.
I asked for that in another of his threads but pretty much got crickets.  I get the impression though he may be a tech trying to look good to his boss by coming up with an answer to a problem to prove he can 'punch above his weight'.  That or someone that read enough to get a product out the door and now doesn't understand why it keeps failing.  When in the repair industry if I replaced a part and the machine still exhibited the same symptoms my first thought was I replaced the wrong part.  I seem to have been rare in that case.  I've seen instances where the same part got replaced 10 friggin times because the tech was sure they couldn't be wrong.  I see the same thinking here with the over voltage.
 
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2017, 05:18:59 pm »
 :palm: I just re-read the op's opening post and saw this line:
. We suspect that the mains is simply going up to around 413Vpk (292VAC) , or more, for sustained periods.  :scared:
He has no actual proof that the AC mains voltage hasn't even gone above 260Vac RMS.
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Offline Brumby

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2017, 01:30:20 am »
To me it appears he pulled that 292 VAC figure out of his ass to justify problem with their crap products. Not from some real measurements.
Indeed!

This is something that has been screaming at me from the outset.  BrianHG has just had the penny drop:

:palm: I just re-read the op's opening post and saw this line:
. We suspect that the mains is simply going up to around 413Vpk (292VAC) , or more, for sustained periods.  :scared:
He has no actual proof that the AC mains voltage hasn't even gone above 260Vac RMS.

I have added to his highlighting on the key phrase.  Suspicion is NOT evidence!  It's a thought experiment - and the basis of that experiment is built on guessing.  A successful outcome in this framework is in the same region as a million monkeys on a million typewriters.

This guessing game is the absolute wrong way of dealing with the issue.  You should know your product well enough so if anyone asks what the failure rate is for any condition, such as overvoltage, you can TELL them.

And this is the sort of thing you need to be doing:
I don't know, stick the bloddy thing on a bench connect a scope to it and wind the variac up, testing is part of development. You must know what failed in the units in the field that went pop and that would be a good place to start. Did something overheat, is it overvolts on a switching device, something went short because of a transient spike or maybe a control loop went ape shit. You've got to test for ALL of these things and a hell of a lot more before you put it on the market, otherwise it will only come back and bite you on the arse. I've just got a teeny tiny little flyback converter working as it should thanks to some good silicon and a lot of hard work and good advice from a lot of other engineers.  It will work quite happily at 300V maybe even 320V but not yet tested to 320V. My next job is to kick the electrical shit out of it and then it can go into a product and that's what engineers do.

Guessing, suspicion, supposition, assumption and crossing fingers is not what engineering is about - but if you want to keep travelling down that road, I have a spare typewriter you can have.

Does anyone have a spare monkey?
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2017, 02:35:41 am »
Does anyone have a spare monkey?

Well that depends on the pay.
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2017, 05:55:56 am »
I get the feeling that the budget isn't just low ... it's subterranean.

If they bring out a milligram scale with the bag of peanuts, I wouldn't be too hopeful.
 
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2017, 11:54:26 am »
Street lighting in general is going to be a 3 phase supply, with a control photocell in the cabinet doing the group switching, and this then allows you to have either shorting photocells or regular light switches in the individual street light luminaires.

I would guess all the failed lights are group switched, and do not have a local photocontrol, as those also include as part of the unit a really big, really beefy VDR, and a built in thermal disconnect to allow it to fail safe when subject to overvoltage events of long duration. Shorting caps ( here they are yellow, to tell them apart easily from the ground) do not have the VDR and thermal fuse, just a 30A fusible link inside ( actually just the brass strip, which will blow at around that), and the luminaire has to provide it's own overvoltage protection.

Thus a filed neutral, or an intermittently open one, will result in a segment having a floating neutral, and this will be an issue at stub ends or split sections, as they will likely have a non multiple of 3 luminiares on them, so one phase will be dragged down, one will be slightly high and one will be very high, just from the imbalance. Made worse if the install team did not do a correct phase rotation, as they might have more lamps in one phase than the other 2, and you will find the lost neutral made the lowest load phase the loser in the voltage stakes.

Lost neutrals are very common, as they generally do not show up easily as failed sections, just long term short lamp life, or well cooked ballasts in magnetic fixtures. Remember the ballast in a regular MV, MH or HPS fixture is designed to operate long term without failure into a shorted lamp, as the failure mode of the lamp is either to be open circuit for MV, or for MH and HPS  to have the starter fail short circuit trying to start an EOL lamp without success. Thus the design is to allow up to 130C above ambient of 50C for the insulation, while in normal use they typically run at 130C alone. I have seen regular lost neutral events with the lights mostly working, just either large segments cycling for a half hour after sunset before the lot is running stably, or with a regular sequence of cyclers showing the low phase.

Treez, that your lamps are failing from overvoltage says you need to look at either increasing input voltage allowed range to include running phase to phase ( 400VAC input range) ot having an overvoltage trip out that is resettable, and which indicated that input line voltage is poor. Something like a replaceable VDR and thermal fuse unit like a regular HPS starter unit, or a fuse or circuit breaker that can be tripped on overvoltage with a label saying overvoltage tripped this, though the replaceable MOV probably is cheaper than having 1500V rated silicon and 800V rated caps in the supply, along with making the startup supply be capable of long term running on 600VDC main bus rails. however making a fitting that runs phase to phase will be a marketing advantage, as you save in using a 3 core plus PE cable over a 4 core plus PE cable, and only need to make the units group only or supply a matching NEMA twistlock standard photocell that will operate perfectly from 150VAC to 440VAC supplies.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2017, 03:37:55 pm »

Treez, that your lamps are failing from overvoltage says you need to look at either....

I don't think this has been proven.  In fact, there are no facts other than a failure has occurred.  No chart recordings, no DMM logging, no post mortem, it's just a guess.  There is a parallel thread trying to prove that air conditioning units are causing line transients.  Again, no real data.

I wouldn't expect to see 277V (one phase of 480Y/277 plus a neutral) used for street lighting.  The distance between source and load tends to be longer and voltage drop is a serious consideration.  Back in the day of 1000W Mercury Vapor lamps, the conductors had to be quite large, even at 480V.

I have never worked for a public agency.  I had read somewhere that they used series wired fixtures at a much higher voltage - this article talks about 2000V.
http://www.kbrhorse.net/streetlights/understanding_series.html

My experience is limited to parking lot lighting.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 03:43:42 pm by rstofer »
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2017, 03:46:38 pm »
I wouldn't expect to see 277V (one phase of 480Y/277 plus a neutral) used for street lighting.

I should hope not - like most peculiar voltages, that's a US (and colony hat) specific thing.
 
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Tac Eht Xilef

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2017, 09:26:18 pm »
This guessing game is the absolute wrong way of dealing with the issue.
That assumes there's actually an issue to deal with, rather than a ... well, I'll just keep my opinion to myself and see how it ends.

I don't think this has been proven.  In fact, there are no facts other than a failure has occurred.
No facts, full stop - just claims, and a tendency to ignore any requests for further info.

Oh, and occasional obtuse 'misreadings' of responses so far, and thanking of every other comment - relevant or not - in the thread. With suggestions that get sillier and siller with each thread started - noise, mains transients, sustained gross overvoltage, industrial sabotage with directed-energy weapons  :palm: |O

I'm guessing the next one will posit that HAARP or sylphs or aliens are to blame...

edit: nah, lightning. It's gonna be lightning. A tazer has already been suggested, hasn't it?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 01:25:19 pm by Tac Eht Xilef »
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2017, 09:57:43 pm »
I wouldn't expect to see 277V (one phase of 480Y/277 plus a neutral) used for street lighting.

I should hope not - like most peculiar voltages, that's a US (and colony hat) specific thing.

It's not a lot different than 240Y/415 or 230Y/400.  480Y/277V is typically used for industrial service.  AFAIK, it is never used for residential and seldom used for commercial.

 
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2017, 10:29:12 pm »
Off topic but I lived in a street where every third house lost its supply one night but I don't remember the incadescent light bulbs being any brighter and we didn't have go round and renew them a week later, so one phase failed but it didn't cause any upset apart the homes that lost their supply for a few hours. It's funny isn't it back when we all had incandescent light bulbs you could "see" changes in line voltage, mostly when the weather was bad, but now it's all smoothed out by tiny inverters.
 
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Offline stj

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2017, 02:06:30 pm »
in the u.k. the streetlamps are fed single phase 240v with 100A cable.
all lamps are in parallel from a cable running along the street and T'ing off into each lamp.

the reason for the 100A cable is to match the feeder when it's spliced and potted, but this is often exploited with 16A outlets up the post for use by x-mas lights or government bullshit like mobile camera pods that look like small trashcans with wifi antenna's on the top.
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2017, 03:26:46 pm »
Off topic but I lived in a street where every third house lost its supply one night but I don't remember the incadescent light bulbs being any brighter and we didn't have go round and renew them a week later, so one phase failed but it didn't cause any upset apart the homes that lost their supply for a few hours. It's funny isn't it back when we all had incandescent light bulbs you could "see" changes in line voltage, mostly when the weather was bad, but now it's all smoothed out by tiny inverters.

That happened to a friend, the pavement lifted quite spectacularly as well but when the cable went it took out every house on the road and there was some sort of short which stuffed enough voltage into fifty or so houses that the electricity company had a team of people going door to door offering immediate payments for faulty appliances so householders could buy replacements.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2017, 04:44:17 pm »
Off topic but I lived in a street where every third house lost its supply one night but I don't remember the incadescent light bulbs being any brighter and we didn't have go round and renew them a week later, so one phase failed but it didn't cause any upset apart the homes that lost their supply for a few hours. It's funny isn't it back when we all had incandescent light bulbs you could "see" changes in line voltage, mostly when the weather was bad, but now it's all smoothed out by tiny inverters.

That happened to a friend, the pavement lifted quite spectacularly as well but when the cable went it took out every house on the road and there was some sort of short which stuffed enough voltage into fifty or so houses that the electricity company had a team of people going door to door offering immediate payments for faulty appliances so householders could buy replacements.

Ouch. That would be rather expensive for people suffering from TEA/GAS. "I'll have one 8-digit DMM, three scopes, an 800MHz LA, a 7-decade KVD, an aged calibrated voltage source, a...".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2017, 05:33:00 pm »
Don’t accept a direct settlement! You’ll waive further compensation.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2017, 10:00:22 am »
Ouch. That would be rather expensive for people suffering from TEA/GAS. "I'll have one 8-digit DMM, three scopes, an 800MHz LA, a 7-decade KVD, an aged calibrated voltage source, a...".

If any of them breaks besides the first stage of power supply, I would be super surprised. And for the most part of it, the fuse blows up before MOV, and should the instantaneous power being too high that MOV blows up first, the diode bridge or DC cap should blow up then, without harming any other parts. In any cases, the secondary side should see nothing but maybe a short spike that can be totally absorbed by LC filter.

Such repairs might be possible, or not. The problem with metrology equipment is proving that's the only damage. Such recalibration and testing is notably expensive.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline CJay

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2017, 10:21:31 am »
Don’t accept a direct settlement! You’ll waive further compensation.

They didn't waive anything, the electricity company was obliged under law to compensate them as well as pay for repairs/replacements on damaged appliances and equipment, they also spliced in a shipping container sized generator until the whole run of cable was replaced as well as paying for accommodation for the families who were in houses that were badly affected (damaged wiring/distribution boards)

I don't think it could have been handled better

 
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Offline ocsetTopic starter

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2018, 08:15:09 pm »
Quote
292V is ridiculous, and I serious suspect the meter is at fault. There's no way the mains can go to 292V without power company dispatching a team in no time. That would be some very serious power incident.

I would say 260V may be possible for remote locations since the substation will just set a higher preset voltage to compensate for high transmission resistance, and during low load period, voltage shoots up to maybe 260V or even 270V. But 292V is just ridiculous.


Thanks,
By the way, we spoke to an apps guy from a very well known company which sells MOVs.....and he told us...
Quote
there is not much published on the mains variation, but EN50160 covers the expectation of service providers to meet the agreed standard, which happens to suggest that mains variations of 173-287V might be recorded 1 in 20yrs. Then there is the harmonic content used to correct for mains general  loading and non-linear load conditions, which sometime cause erroneous mains waveform under temporary load change condition.

...so that means that normal mains can go up to 287Vac, ie, 404vpk.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:18:26 pm by treez »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Mains in UK can go up to 292VAC for periods of several minutes
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2018, 08:21:50 pm »
Thanks,
By the way, we spoke to an apps guy from a very well known company which sells MOVs.....and he told us...
Quote
there is not much published on the mains variation, but EN50160 covers the expectation of service providers to meet the agreed standard, which happens to suggest that mains variations of 173-287V might be recorded 1 in 20yrs. Then there is the harmonic content used to correct for mains general  loading and non-linear load conditions, which sometime cause erroneous mains waveform under temporary load change condition.

...so that means that normal mains can go up to 287Vac, ie, 404vpk.

Are you suggesting that is what happened in your case? Do you have any measurements or other evidence that did occur?

BTW, your statement of probability is woefully inadequate, to the point of being meaningless.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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