Author Topic: Mesh analysis  (Read 34195 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #100 on: January 05, 2017, 01:08:17 am »
Arrows on voltage sources in OP's diagram are clear and unambiguous and so are the simulation results. If you have defined arrow direction, then to this given direction exists only one correct numerical value.

Indeed the arrows on the OP's diagram are clear and unambiguous.  The issue is whether your choice of polarity is in agreement with the convention for the meaning of arrows on voltage sources.

If you put the + sign on the voltage sources VG1, VG2 and VG2 in your simulation on the other side, you will get the same result signs that everybody else is getting.
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #101 on: January 05, 2017, 01:13:50 am »
I think it all boils down at how do you interpret the arrows in the voltage sources in the OP's diagram. Invert all voltages, and all the results get inverted. That also goes for the spice simulation. BTW, I really liked your solution to the problem, it's simple and elegant.

Since the problem only wanted a current (the current out of the bottom of Z4) an elegant solution wouldn't  calculate any more voltages or currents than needed to get that current.  Calculating the voltage at node a would be the bare minimum needed, and in fact only one equation is needed, if we substitute Vb = Va - V3 at same time we are creating the node equation for Va.

Using a math software like Matlab, Maple, or Mathematica, we can set up a 2x2 system and get the voltages Va and Vb in a compact way:

« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 01:15:58 am by The Electrician »
 

Offline kulky64

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: sk
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2017, 01:35:27 am »
It's not a question of whether Spice has it wrong.  You chose to orient your voltage sources with the + sign corresponding to the tail of the arrow rather than the point of the arrow, said arrow being the one(s) shown in the image in the first post.  I believe the convention is that the direction of the arrow shows the direction of voltage rise through the voltage source.  This would correspond to the + sign on the source in Spice.

So how would you draw arrows on voltage sources E1 and E2 in the attachad picture? Would you draw arrows from top to bottom, or from bottom to top?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 01:40:06 am by kulky64 »
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2017, 01:43:45 am »
It's not a question of whether Spice has it wrong.  You chose to orient your voltage sources with the + sign corresponding to the tail of the arrow rather than the point of the arrow, said arrow being the one(s) shown in the image in the first post.  I believe the convention is that the direction of the arrow shows the direction of voltage rise through the voltage source.  This would correspond to the + sign on the source in Spice.

So how would you draw arrows on voltage sources E1 and E2 in the attachad picture? Would you draw arrows from top to bottom, or from bottom to top?

From bottom to top--pointing up, in other words.

Having arrows on voltage sources is non-standard in my experience.  The conventions I see in current texts and classrooms is to use a circle with an arrow inside to represent a current source, and a circle with a + and - sign inside for a voltage source.

I would have thought the sources in the OP's image were current sources if it weren't for the fact that they are designated V1, V2 and V3.

Perhaps Simon can consult with his tutor and find out for sure what is intended.
 

Offline kulky64

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: sk
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2017, 01:47:38 am »
From bottom to top--pointing up, in other words.

Thats weird, I have never seen this convention. Anyone else?
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #105 on: January 05, 2017, 01:57:06 am »
From bottom to top--pointing up, in other words.

Thats weird, I have never seen this convention. Anyone else?

Everybody who solved it in this thread and got the same signs I did, assumed it.  Also, all the results on the Physics forum thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/ac-circuit-analysis-mesh-and-nodal.791744/ assumed it.

By the way, I'm not criticizing your work at all.  Your solutions are top-notch.  I just think you are making an assumption about polarity that is not conventional.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 01:59:16 am by The Electrician »
 

Offline kulky64

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: sk
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #106 on: January 05, 2017, 02:13:10 am »
Every textbook I ever read draw arrow from place with higher potential towars place with lower potential. If you saw otherwise, please point me to that source.
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #107 on: January 05, 2017, 02:39:48 am »
Every textbook I ever read draw arrow from place with higher potential towars place with lower potential. If you saw otherwise, please point me to that source.

I haven't seen this convention in textbooks used in the USA.  I think the OP's image is from a U.K. source.  I have only seen it in problems and source materials posted by persons from outside the USA, but what I have seen has consistently used the direction of the arrow to indicate lower to higher potential.  The direction of the arrow from lower to higher potential in the source is the same direction as the (conventional) current flow when the source is delivering power to a resistor.

Can you post a picture of an illustration from one of your textbooks showing the arrow going from high to low potential?

Simon, can you find out about this?  What does your tutor say?  Can you cite any other authorities?
 

Offline kulky64

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: sk
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2017, 03:18:25 am »
Can you draw me a simple picture with voltage source, resistor and forward biased diode with voltage arrows on all components? Because this is getting ridiculous.
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2017, 03:41:10 am »
Can you draw me a simple picture with voltage source, resistor and forward biased diode with voltage arrows on all components? Because this is getting ridiculous.

What would be the purpose of doing this?

I thought it was only the arrows associated with the sources in the OP's image whose interpretation is in question.
 

Offline kulky64

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: sk
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2017, 03:50:01 am »
Because i would like to know how would you draw an arrow on diode whose anode is more positive than cathode. And this would clarify also in which direction an arrow on voltage source must point.
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #111 on: January 05, 2017, 04:15:16 am »
Because i would like to know how would you draw an arrow on diode whose anode is more positive than cathode. And this would clarify also in which direction an arrow on voltage source must point.

I've already said several times that the convention for the arrow direction on voltage sources is in the direction of increasing potential, and I say it again.  Does that provide clarification?

For passive devices such as resistors and ordinary forward biased diodes, if one wanted to draw an arrow for the same reason that the arrows are shown in the OP's image, it would point in the direction of increasing potential.
 

Online rstofer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9890
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #112 on: January 05, 2017, 04:16:47 am »
Can you draw me a simple picture with voltage source, resistor and forward biased diode with voltage arrows on all components? Because this is getting ridiculous.

What would be the purpose of doing this?

I thought it was only the arrows associated with the sources in the OP's image whose interpretation is in question.

I don't have a decent way to annotate an LTSpice schematic but you can consider I1 to be going clockwise around the loop starting at the lower left corner.  The battery is a voltage gain, the resistor and diode are voltage losses.  Their assumed polarity is marked.

Hope it's right...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 04:19:28 am by rstofer »
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #113 on: January 05, 2017, 04:33:42 am »
I notice that this other problem Simon posted: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/working-with-complex-numbers/

uses the same convention of an arrow beside a voltage source. Apparently both of these problems are from an HNC distance learning course in the U.K.

All the posts in that thread assumed that the arrow pointed in the direction of increasing potential.  I would not use that "arrow" designation myself; I would use a + on the more positive end as Spice does.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 17814
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #114 on: January 05, 2017, 07:55:35 am »
At the end of the day does it matter ? as long as the rule used is consistent ?

I don't know what the question author intended, the questions I feel are often asked in an ambiguos way. so I don't know if strict nodal analysis was intended and I didn't know the supernode was not a strict node method. The course does not deal in too much theory and did not explain what strict and none strict is,

apparently the question was designed to be easy....... I have no faith in UK education standards.
 

Online IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11880
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #115 on: January 05, 2017, 08:37:44 am »
All the arguing about arrow directions and conventions is like arguing whether buses should be painted red or green. The truth is that whatever direction voltage and current arrows point doesn't matter as long as you define your convention and apply it properly during the analysis. Similarly, you don't have to draw loops on the diagram if you are doing a current balance around nodes, you just need a direction arrow to give a sign convention for each current path. You only need the loops if doing a mesh analysis summing voltages around a current loop.

This is all part of the "deeper" understanding of concepts and theory, which goes beyond simple mechanical application of formulas.

Ultimately there is no single "correct" solution to a problem like this. There are many equivalent solutions that may be obtained depending on where you place your reference point for voltages and which direction you draw your current arrows. There are as many correct solutions as there are permutations of these choices.
 

Online IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11880
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #116 on: January 05, 2017, 08:48:03 am »
apparently the question was designed to be easy....... I have no faith in UK education standards.

I think the question was easy. I wrote out the solution I posted in a couple of minutes. Simplifying the equations and crunching the numbers to complete the problem would have taken a bit longer of course, but knowing how to write down a set of equations is main learning expected of students. If you can comfortably write down some equations to define the problem then you are on the way to solving any problem you are presented with--and you will find that core knowledge helps you in many ways in future. (For example, this kind of analysis does not have to be applied to an AC circuit like this, it could be applied to some electronic circuit with transistors in it.)
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #117 on: January 05, 2017, 09:35:29 am »
All the arguing about arrow directions and conventions is like arguing whether buses should be painted red or green. The truth is that whatever direction voltage and current arrows point doesn't matter as long as you define your convention and apply it properly during the analysis. Similarly, you don't have to draw loops on the diagram if you are doing a current balance around nodes, you just need a direction arrow to give a sign convention for each current path. You only need the loops if doing a mesh analysis summing voltages around a current loop.

This is all part of the "deeper" understanding of concepts and theory, which goes beyond simple mechanical application of formulas.

Ultimately there is no single "correct" solution to a problem like this. There are many equivalent solutions that may be obtained depending on where you place your reference point for voltages and which direction you draw your current arrows. There are as many correct solutions as there are permutations of these choices.

It's quite true that the choice of branch current assumed directions is arbitrary, and will have no effect on the final result.  Likewise, any node can be chosen as the reference node for a nodal solution, and won't affect the relative values of node voltages in the result solution.

But this ability to make arbitrary choices about assumed directions and polarity of currents and voltages does not apply to the 3 independent sources.  The two possible ways to interpret the polarity of those sources give results with differing signs even if consistently applied to all 3 sources at the same time.  Circuit voltages are always measured with respect to a reference.  Considering only V1, if we choose the bottom of the source as a reference then the top can be either 120 volts or -120 volts.  It has both a magnitude and polarity.  Without the arrow how would we know the polarity?  The arrow tells us the polarity, and the polarity matters, so the choice of whether the polarity indicates rising potential or falling potential matters.

As far as whether there are many correct solutions, I think this is a question of semantics.

Different choices of reference will result in different values of node voltages with respect to that reference, but the constellation of node voltages all have the same values relative to one another.  There is only one correct constellation of relative node voltages.

The same sort of reasoning applies to branch currents.  If one person assumes the current in Z5 is upward, and another person assumes it's downward, the two solutions will result in the same magnitude for that current but with different signs.  After reconciling the sign of the calculated current with the assumed direction, the actual direction, up or down, can be determined.  The "actual" directions of branch currents are unique, and there is only one correct solution for actual branch current directions.

The original problem only asked for a current I, which is the current out of the bottom of Z4.  There is no single "correct" method of solution, but there is most assuredly one, and only one, answer for the current I which is correct in both sign and magnitude.

The direction of the required current I is indicated on the diagram, and that direction is not subject to arbitrary choice; it's part of the problem description.
 

Online IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11880
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #118 on: January 05, 2017, 09:58:41 am »
...

Agreed. Thanks for the additional clarification.
 

Offline kulky64

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: sk
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #119 on: January 05, 2017, 11:15:00 am »
This is all part of the "deeper" understanding of concepts and theory, which goes beyond simple mechanical application of formulas.

This is not part of the deeper understanding. Arrow must simply point from + to -, that is from point with higher potential to point with lower potential irrespective wheter it is voltage source or passive component. Otherwise KVL would simply not work.

Check out this link:
https://www.tina.com/course/13kirch/kirch

Read it 2 times, 5 times or 20 times if needed. I highlighted for you some important points.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 17814
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #120 on: January 05, 2017, 12:45:16 pm »
This is all part of the "deeper" understanding of concepts and theory, which goes beyond simple mechanical application of formulas.

This is not part of the deeper understanding. Arrow must simply point from + to -, that is from point with higher potential to point with lower potential irrespective wheter it is voltage source or passive component. Otherwise KVL would simply not work.

Check out this link:
https://www.tina.com/course/13kirch/kirch

Read it 2 times, 5 times or 20 times if needed. I highlighted for you some important points.

But this is about mesh analysis where providing the relative directions are more important than the actual polarity. The nodal analysis may be affected ? I'm not good enough at maths to work that one out in a hurry. Now we are told conventional electricity goes from positive to negative, so in a DC circuit which this is not the point of the arrow would be positive as the current flows from the + through the circuit and to the -, the the arrow on the voltage source would go from - to + inside the voltage source.
 

Offline kulky64

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: sk
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #121 on: January 05, 2017, 01:10:24 pm »
Mesh analysis, nodal analysis, superposition principle or whatever, KVL is valid universally. I'm glad you realised that INSIDE voltage source, the current flows from - to + terminal against indicated voltage arrow (I'm talking about arrow as is drawn in the posted link, not your weird-ass belief). Therefore power V*I inside voltage source must be negative. On load, for example resistor the voltage arrow and current arrow are in the same direction, therefore power has positive sign.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 01:21:39 pm by kulky64 »
 

Online rstofer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9890
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #122 on: January 05, 2017, 04:32:38 pm »
This is all part of the "deeper" understanding of concepts and theory, which goes beyond simple mechanical application of formulas.

This is not part of the deeper understanding. Arrow must simply point from + to -, that is from point with higher potential to point with lower potential irrespective wheter it is voltage source or passive component. Otherwise KVL would simply not work.

Check out this link:
https://www.tina.com/course/13kirch/kirch

Read it 2 times, 5 times or 20 times if needed. I highlighted for you some important points.

I don't know if TINA is being deliberately obtuse or not but I certainly don't agree with their assumed current directions nor the related loop equations.
In the schematic on your attached page, I would have started at the bottom left corner and used the voltage source as the only gain (+) in the circuit and the two resistors as the two losses (-).  In other words, my signs would be exactly opposite in the loop equation.  +Vs - I1*R1 - I1*R2 = 0.  Just a nice simple loop with the proper signs.

I have never seen the 'arrow' notation.  Sure, I draw arrows for nodal analysis but I don't use the same definition of the voltmeter and the arrow head.  In the schematic, I would have chosen to make the arrow go in the direction of voltage gain through the source such that the current going into the top left corner came from the source and the current leaving the node passed through R1 and R2 on the way back to ground (-).  I would still have had 0 current residual at the node (as required, current can't pile up!) but my 'arrow' through the source would have been 180 degrees the other way around.

I guess it comes down to the 'arrow' notation.  That's not something I have ever seen used in loop equations.  We assigned assumed (+) and (-) from time to time but the arrow seems like something I missed and don't regret.

ETA:  There is a school of thought that says for nodal equations, all currents are assumed to be coming into the node or all currents are assumed to be going out of the node.  Using the 'out of the node' thought, the direction of the arrow through the source makes sense.  We'll just wind up with the wrong sign.

I really like the capability of TINA for working these kinds of problems.  If my grandson winds up doing EE, he can buy the Student version at quite a discount.  I don't think I am interested enough to pay for the Pro version out of pocket.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 08:53:46 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline kulky64

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • Country: sk
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #123 on: January 05, 2017, 08:23:48 pm »
OK, now I see where the problem is. If I type in Google english phrase kirchhoff's voltage law and do an image search, then majority of the results doesn't have voltage arrows in it (english speakers doesn't like voltage arrows) and when they do, they are highly inconsistent. Some are drawn with arrows pointing from + to -, some in the other way. But when I type for example german phrase 2. Kirchhoffsches Gesetz I get higly consistent results, where almost all images have volatge arrows in it and they are pointg the way I (and SPICE) suggest. Similar situation is when I do search in slovak or czech language. I guess for Americans is more intuituve when voltage arrow points against direction of current on passive components like resistors.
 

Offline The Electrician

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: us
Re: Mesh analysis
« Reply #124 on: January 05, 2017, 08:41:10 pm »
This is all part of the "deeper" understanding of concepts and theory, which goes beyond simple mechanical application of formulas.

This is not part of the deeper understanding. Arrow must simply point from + to -, that is from point with higher potential to point with lower potential irrespective wheter it is voltage source or passive component. Otherwise KVL would simply not work.

Check out this link:
https://www.tina.com/course/13kirch/kirch

Read it 2 times, 5 times or 20 times if needed. I highlighted for you some important points.

So here we have the classic "dueling authorities" battle.

Tina may be the only site on the internet that chooses to show the arrow in the direction of decreasing potential.

All the other references I could find use the opposite direction. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_sign_convention

http://fourier.eng.hmc.edu/e84/lectures/ch2/node2.html

Here somebody asks the question and gets an answer agreeing with Wikipedia: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/voltage-reference-direction.695989/

Every single person who posted answers to Simon's two problems on the Physics Forum used the convention given by Wikipedia.

Everybody on this forum other than kulky64 and Tina uses the convention given by Wikipedia.

My answer to the issue is to not use an arrow, but to use + and - signs.  So when encountering a problem using a voltage source whose reference direction is given by an arrow rather than + and -, beware.  If possible, check with the instructor as to what is intended.  If I were solving a homework problem with this issue, my answer would mention which convention I was assuming, and say that the only result of assuming the opposite would be a change of sign in answers.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf