My purchase list for my new lab -- budget $1000+, thoughts?

[AnyNameWillDo]

In fact the OP would be well advised to get that and an older edition of "Electronic Principles" by Malvino or Malvino and Baker.  You do *not* need a current edition unless you're taking a class which is going to assign a particular problem.  Malvino is a PHD engineer who took to writing trade school textbooks.  They are beautifully written and he actually builds all the circuits in the book to verify that he got them correct.  The current edition is over $200 which is insane.  But it has the virtue of knocking down the price of the previous edition.

If you are referring to https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Principles-Albert-Paul-Malvino/dp/0073373885/ I did purchase this a couple days ago (along with several others)

[rstofer]

Mains powered equipment is not dangerous if it is unplugged.

Is that true of a switch-mode power supply?

As noted, in either instance you do need to have the sense to discharge the capacitors before touching the terminals.

For pete's sake,  this is an electronics forum.  People are supposed to either understand electronics and electricity or want to learn it.  I very much doubt that there are many 5 year olds with $1000 to spend on an electronics lab.

Maybe the point is that a person doesn't know what they don't know.  If they were to discharge the capacitor, how to do it safely?  Short it with a screwdriver?  Probably not!  OK, then what size resistor?  What is the maximum voltage to expect?  How long will it take to discharge?  How much heat is dissipated in the resistor? And so on...

It's one thing to play on the bench with low energy sources.  It's quite another to be messing around with higher voltages and lots stored energy.

Yes, eventually, all of the questions are answered and the process is quite safe.  But it is not the kind of thing that needs to happen day one.

[rhb]

Maybe the point is that a person doesn't know what they don't know.  If they were to discharge the capacitor, how to do it safely?  Short it with a screwdriver?  Probably not!

WTF?  First of all, the shock hazard from a capacitor charged to 35-50 V is non-existent.  There are no  capacitors on the mains side of a linear supply.  We are *not* discussing working on the HV supply for an oscilloscope CRT.

You *don't* use a good screwdriver as, if there is a significant charge, you'll damage the screwdriver.  I have a junk screw driver with plastic handle that I modified to form a 90 degree pointed tool to reach the addressing DIP switches on the Emulex  SCSI-ESDI cards used in Sun shoe boxes.  That's what I use.  If for some reason I need to use a good screwdriver I just make sure I don't let the discharge hit the tip.  Resistors are for bleeders designed into the circuit, not for service safety precautions.  If you do a lot of work on HV PSUs you have a screwdriver with an alligator clip that you connect to ground and the first thing you do after opening the cabinet is discharge all the capacitors. For that a resistor is a good idea so that you don't damage the capacitor terminals if they have push on connections.

There's a very basic concept here.  Before you go to do something with which you have little or no recent experience, you get a book and read it first.  There is a *lot* of stuff I did 30-40 years ago that I wouldn't consider doing today without sitting down and reading up on the subject first. 

And I certainly would not trust the internet or YouTube with videos where people pour cast iron on concrete floors and similar completely insane stunts.  Like the guy who had his girlfriend shoot him with a .50 Desert Eagle with a thick book as "protection".

I *do* know what I don't know.  That is the single most important thing to learn.  That makes further learning possible.

Novices would have a lot easier time if people explained "what and how" rather than repeating  nanny state "don'ts".

[ez24]

Be sure to check out Tequipment discounts for members, I forgot the secret code.  But you can get the 10% 6% by calling them and tell them you are a forum member

Also this

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/from-no-parts-to-decent-stockpile-best-approach/msg734584/#msg734584

[jrd]

Your test equipment needs are really driven by your interests. I was once a tube audio builder who later in life got interested in Ham Radio.  As a result, my test equipment minimum needs changed - moving from a PC plugin oscilloscope, audio card and cheap multimeter over to purchasing a  real 200 MHz two-channel DSO,  an LCR meter and yes Function Generator. None of my intended original "investments" lasted long.

1. Not sure how valuable a 4 channel scope is for you. Dont forget a 50 MHz DSO at 4 channels =   50 / 4 = 12.5MHz max sample rate if all channels are enabled.  This means if you intend to use all 4 channels at the same time for Digital Work, its going to be for very slow 1980s type TTL and CMOS speed circuits.  You might be better served by two channels at 100 or 200 MHz for alittle less money, and a purchase of some nice high impedance scope probes to go with the instrument.

2. In this day and age of I2C and SPI tidbits, a scope that has built in decode of these bus traffic types is *VERY* useful to have handy for troubleshooting and repairing things around the house. Rigol and Siglent scopes have these.

3. In lieu of an LCR meter, you can use the scope to accurately perform these measurements.  You dont need a Function Generator, but you would need some accurate source of frequency. Learning to use the scope to perform these basic measurements (and calculations) reinforces good habits.

4. You need a good set of probe accessories for both your meter and scope. If you are sticking to 24V or less, then a 1x Scope Probe is fine.  But you will need Pomona grabbers,  SMD tweezer grips and a mixture of snort and wide probe tips for both your meter and scope probe. You should carefully learn about oscope connection discipline with respect to ground and making floating measurements to protect your scope from death. Very important early habits to master!

5. A Current Limited Bipolar Supply (+/- 15V) prevents you from blowing up parts, or suffering fingertip burns, when you breadboard. It's incredibly easy to screw something up and get an op-amp to run off to rails, or dump current through a transistor.  The current limiting power supply will let you make mistakes without blowing up parts along the way.  Some parts are expensive, you will run into $15 op-amps and $8 JFETs that you certainly wont want to loose.


For Tube Audio work - I have a Heathkit IP17, that gives me 0-400VDC to 100mA to work with ; more than enough to prototype or troubleshoot a single audio channel be it pre-amp or power amp.  Also, a 10x Tektronix probe. The scope probe has nearly never gone to a Plate terminal,connection, I measure at the cathode or the cool side of the coupling capacitor.  Ultimately, tube audio work needs a Differential Probe to do it right, but it can be done wiht a x10 probe with extreme vigilance taken to ground reference!

-- Jim

[nanofrog]

The regular EEVBlog discount is only 6%. Here.

[AnyNameWillDo]

Should I be getting something better than the Rigol DS1054Z (when unlocked to 100 MHz), then?

[rstofer]

1. Not sure how valuable a 4 channel scope is for you. Dont forget a 50 MHz DSO at 4 channels =   50 / 4 = 12.5MHz max sample rate if all channels are enabled.  This means if you intend to use all 4 channels at the same time for Digital Work, its going to be for very slow 1980s type TTL and CMOS speed circuits.  You might be better served by two channels at 100 or 200 MHz for alittle less money, and a purchase of some nice high impedance scope probes to go with the instrument.

I don't think this is correct.  The 4 channel DS1054Z samples at 1 GHz.  We divide that across 4 channels and get 250 MHz which just turns out to be the magic "2.5" number that is typical for sampling.  You need to sample at least 2x (Nyquist and Shannon) and 2.5x is the industry standard.  All 4 100 MHz channels are sampled at 250 MHz.  ETA:  Minimum of 250 MHz, turn off unused channels for higher sample rate.

The actual 3 dB bandwidth of the 100 MHz unlocked DS1054Z has been shown to be around 130 MHz.  There a video somewhere...

The closest 4 channel 200 MHz scope is the Siglent SDS1204X-E and it is nearly $800.  Their 100 MHz 4 channel is competitive with Rigol and their 2 channel is quite reasonable.  We have had this discussion almost weekly since the Siglent was released.  Had the more expensive 1204 been available, I would have bought it for the bandwidth.  Alas, it wasn't so I bought the Rigol.  Some day I might buy the Siglent but I'll let them finish up the firmware.  I'm not in a hurry.  Nor do I know what issues remain in the firmware, if any.

In a scope, bandwidth is everything, except channels.  I wanted 4 channels for SPI and I already had bandwidth in my Tek 485 (350 MHz).

[rhb]

1. Not sure how valuable a 4 channel scope is for you. Dont forget a 50 MHz DSO at 4 channels =   50 / 4 = 12.5MHz max sample rate if all channels are enabled.  This means if you intend to use all 4 channels at the same time for Digital Work, its going to be for very slow 1980s type TTL and CMOS speed circuits.  You might be better served by two channels at 100 or 200 MHz for alittle less money, and a purchase of some nice high impedance scope probes to go with the instrument.

The  DS1054Z will sample a single channel at 1 GSa/S, two channels at 500 MSa/S and 3-4 at 250 MSa/S.  I have had a DS1102E for several years which has  generally been satisfactory.  I was considering the DS1104Z-S, but in the end bought an Instek MSO-2204EA for the better FFT and higher BW.

I have doubts about the quality of the calibration of a "hacked" DS1054Z, but no doubts about the instrument itself.  It is certainly an excellent choice for a beginner's scope.  The sample rate limitations using 3-4 channels. make it a better 50 MHz DSO than a 100 MHz DSO.  At 50 MHz you have 5 samples per cycle rather than only 2.5 which is just barely better than the Nyquist limit of 2 samples per cycle.  The sharp cutoff anti-alias filter required at 2.5 samples per cycle leads to a lot of ringing on a step response.

[mathsquid]

Mains powered equipment is not dangerous if it is unplugged.

Is that true of a switch-mode power supply?

As noted, in either instance you do need to have the sense to discharge the capacitors before touching the terminals.

For pete's sake,  this is an electronics forum....

But the person who started the thread is presumably very new to electronics, so I thought that the blanket statement "mains powered equipment is not dangerous if it is unplugged" needed some follow-up.

[Mr. Scram]

Should I be getting something better than the Rigol DS1054Z (when unlocked to 100 MHz), then?

If you want to err on the safe side, you could get yourself a 1 GHz Keysight mix signal oscilloscope. Unfortunately, you need about 15 times your budget for that. There's always better gear and it's foolish to think you can buy anything and be set for life. Even that 1 GHz oscilloscope has its limitations. Worse still, oscilloscopes with exceptional capabilities are often not that nice to live with when you want to take some simple measurements. Horses for courses.

Look at almost any lab and you'll find a collection of different devices with overlapping capabilities tailored to the interests and needs of the user. You could buy an expensive 6 1/2 digit multimeter and still be out of luck when you need to carry your DMM with you in the field. In that case a good portable unit is what you need. So what to do? Get yourself a solid basic set and start figuring out your needs and wants. Add to the collection when you want to do something that you currently can't do. There's plenty of solid advice on what gear isn't a waste of money for a beginner. As you figure things out, you'll inevitably add to your collections.

The DS1054Z is a very solid oscilloscope for beginners and more advanced tinkerers alike. It comes with a stupid amount of functions for a ridiculously low price. Better yet, they keep their value. You could use it for a while and if you really need an upgrade, sell it for a healthy amount of money. You'll have learned a lot for almost no money at all.

[rstofer]

On reflection, the Siglent SPD3303X has a problem with the binding posts.  Non standard spacing is inexcusable.  Cheap binding posts could be replaced but the spacing problem is forever.  I had forgotten about this issue but I was aware of it.  I may have watched the video at some point.

ETA:  I just finished watching the video.  I think I'll just use my DP832.  I think I made the right choice.

[Mr. Scram]

On reflection, the Siglent SPD3303X has a problem with the binding posts.  Non standard spacing is inexcusable.  Cheap binding posts could be replaced by the spacing problem is forever.  I had forgotten about this issue but I was aware of it.  I may have watched the video at some point.

I think it's a rebadge of a GW-Instek unit, which doesn't have the issue. Who's rebadging who I don't know.

[rstofer]

Should I be getting something better than the Rigol DS1054Z (when unlocked to 100 MHz), then?

There are only 3 scopes at the entry level and two of them are the new Siglents.  Study carefully the current state of the firmware before going in that direction.  I'm not a buyer, I don't know where the firmware stands.

This debate comes up weekly and it always ends the same way - a draw.

Rigol:

Unlocking the DS1054Z and updating to the latest firmware results in a very nice scope for $350 (Amazon).  The user interface is slow and it's never going to improve.  Accept it or buy elsewhere.  I don't have an issue with it but there is an owner around here who really hates their scope.
FFT is, at best, marginal.  I do FFT with an Analog Discovery 2.

Siglent:

SDS1202X-E 2 channel 200 MHz for $379.  If 2 channels are acceptable (and for me they are not) then for just about the same price as the Rigol you get 200 MHz and you don't have to unlock anything.  I have read that the UI is superior but I'm not a buyer.  I haven't studied the matter.  Look through the Test Equipment forum.

SDS1204X-E 4 channel 200 MHz for $740.  This would be the upgrade over the DS1054Z but it's twice as much money and then some.  Bandwidth is the most important spec right after channels.  This one has it all, good UI, bandwidth, channels, decent FFT, everything in one box.  But it's expensive.  It is also fairly new, check around the Test Equipment forum for the firmware issues.

In my view the DS1054Z is a great scope for the price.  Had the SDS1204X-E been available, I would have bought it instead.  But that doesn't alter the fact that the Rigol does the job and it does it well.  It may turn out that my Rigol gets dedicated to my analog computers.  If so, I'm in the market for a new scope and that will very likely be the SDS1204X-E.  After I do some research.

[AnyNameWillDo]

Yeah -- for now I think I am going to stick to the Rigol DP832 and the Rigol DS1054Z for the PSU / oscilloscope.

Those two things alone eat up a fair chunk of the budget so I think it's probably a good sign to keep things there for the time being, haha.

[Fsck]

You're in america. Have you considered buying a used tank power supply? (HP 662x like the 6624 and friends) They're loud, huge, heavy but get the job done and more, also don't drop one on your foot.

[bitseeker]

Yeah, I was about to mention that, but with a different tack. It's good to get some basic gear, such as a DMM and power supply, that are known good and on which you can rely (or at least send back under warranty if it fails).

Then, if you're curious about or are already into fixing things, the US abounds in used test gear. You can acquire A-brand equipment at discounted prices that may work perfectly (e.g., seller doesn't understand the gear) or have varying levels of problems and test/fix them using the gear you trust. It makes for a great bang-for-buck way to build out your lab and learn at the same time.

[AnyNameWillDo]

You're in america. Have you considered buying a used tank power supply? (HP 662x like the 6624 and friends) They're loud, huge, heavy but get the job done and more, also don't drop one on your foot.

I live in an apartment and only have so much space / ability to piss off neighbors

[Fsck]

I have an apartment too. If the fan noise bothers you, you can switch out the fan. Plus, you can just stack stuff on top of it. It's really durable.

[rhb]

If you are referring to https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Principles-Albert-Paul-Malvino/dp/0073373885/ I did purchase this a couple days ago (along with several others)

Yes.   Despite having fooled around for many years, I *really* learned electronics from the 2nd ed.  I worked though a lot of the problems in a bound notebook which I still have.  I still want to build the basic example circuits on standoffs with a schematic underneath as an educational toy.

After Malvino you should be ready for "The Art of Electronics".  For that you definitely want the 3rd ed.  Too much has changed since the 2nd.

FWIW I usually get a minimum of 3 books on something I want to learn.

[AnyNameWillDo]

After Malvino you should be ready for "The Art of Electronics".  For that you definitely want the 3rd ed.  Too much has changed since the 2nd.

I have this one too (3rd edition as well) -- it does seem to get pretty heavy early on.

[rstofer]

It may turn out that my Rigol gets dedicated to my analog computers.  If so, I'm in the market for a new scope and that will very likely be the SDS1204X-E.  After I do some research.

See attached for real live DS1054Z application - Damped Harmonic Motion (or RLC circuit).

[rstofer]

If you are referring to https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Principles-Albert-Paul-Malvino/dp/0073373885/ I did purchase this a couple days ago (along with several others)

Yes.   Despite having fooled around for many years, I *really* learned electronics from the 2nd ed.  I worked though a lot of the problems in a bound notebook which I still have.  I still want to build the basic example circuits on standoffs with a schematic underneath as an educational toy.

After Malvino you should be ready for "The Art of Electronics".  For that you definitely want the 3rd ed.  Too much has changed since the 2nd.

FWIW I usually get a minimum of 3 books on something I want to learn.

There is the companion lab manual "Learning the Art of Electronics".  There is a web site.

https://learningtheartofelectronics.com/

[AnyNameWillDo]

Thoughts on handheld tools in terms of cutters, pliers, strippers, tweezers, etc?

So far I've recompiled the following:

**Pliers:**

KNIPEX 34 32 130 ESD Precision Electronics Pliers: https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-34-130-ESD-Electronics/dp/B005EXO072/

KNIPEX 35 12 115 ESD Electronics Pliers: https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-35-115-ESD-Electronics/dp/B005EXO068/

**Flush Cutters:**

KNIPEX 78 61 125 Electronics Super Knips Comfort Grip: https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-78-61-125-Electronics/dp/B0048F601Q/

CHP-170 Micro Cutter: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FZPDG1K/

**Wire Strippers:**

Unsure... would something like this be appropriate? (Not sure if this would cover most cases or if I should get a separate wire cutter)

Wire Cutter and Stripper, for 8-24 AWG Solid and 10-22 AWG Stranded Electrical Wire Klein Tools 11063W: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BC39YFQ

**Tweezers:**

Wiha 44501 Stainless Steel Fine Point Professional ESD Precision Tech Tweezer with Static Dissipative Grip and Hypo Allergenic, 130mm Overall Length: https://www.amazon.com/Wiha-44501-Professional-Dissipative-Allergenic/dp/B0009K3IAK/

Seems kind of pricey / unsure if there are cheaper but just-as-good options that would also give me a variety of angled tips.

[rstofer]

I buy my tweezers from Sparkfun:
https://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=tweezer

I like my strippers to include 30 AWG since that is a common wire-wrap size and is typical for 'patches'
https://www.amazon.com/Stripper-Stranded-Klein-Tools-11057/dp/B000XEUPMQ

Xacto Knife set:
https://www.amazon.com/Xacto-X5282-Basic-Knife-Set/dp/B00004Z2UB
Handy to have around...