New product

[RalfSchooneveld]

Hello new friends,

I am a filmmaker from the Netherlands, and I am inventing a new product. I am hoping this product will make many lives easier for others, while earning myself an extra source of income.

I have found the EEVblog videos on youtube while learning electronics, seeing as the fact as I used to have not even an idea of how anything technical worked before I came up with the idea for this new product.

The first thing I have to do tomorrow is find a way to upload my huge high resolution picture on here. After you guys see the picture (which speaks for itself), I hope there might be people here to help me with it. Purchasing a patent will be € 5000,00 per year, and some people say it's a waste of time, but non the less, it doesn't exist, so to me it will be worth developing it. I am having a hard time finding the components that I need to start anywhere with building a first prototype.

Anyway, if people here are anywhere near to the guy in the video, I might be actually ok.

[ade]

Hi Ralf, friendly advice... don't publicly talk about your patentable idea (that means here).   Especially where you are in Europe, you can lose your patent idea by simply disclosing it in public prior to the patent filing.  There is a bit more leeway in US/Canada.

Also, it may be hard to patent this particular idea because there is substantial prior art (similar products in the market currently or in the past). 

However I suggest for you to not discuss / elaborate your ideas further here, and collaborate with local friends / engineers / patent attorneys -- or at least via PMs and not via public forum postings.

[RalfSchooneveld]

A bit disappointing to hear. Getting this thing made locally is already hard enough. But thank you for your advice.

[RalfSchooneveld]

Can any moderator delete my thread please?

[Wilksey]

Your best bet is not to mention that you plan to Patent it, by all means post a sketch or photo of what you are aiming to achieve, the link says "power surge protector with LCD", is that your idea? It is a very generic title really I don't think anyone would want to "steal" your idea!

If you want general advice on for example, what the best components are for doing certain tasks, then I can't see an issue, if you want someone to do the project for you, you might be better off somewhere like Freelancer.com or somewhere.

HTH

[tggzzz]

the link says "power surge protector with LCD", is that your idea? It is a very generic title really I don't think anyone would want to "steal" your idea!

I wouldn't read too much into that. One of my patents is "Control of Computer Peripherals"! Yes, the name was chosen by the (very good) patent lawyer, to make it more difficult to steal the idea; security through obscurity.

[Wilksey]

That was my point, it's a generic title!

[RalfSchooneveld]

To keep this topic productive for my educational use, I would very much like all of your opinion on the fallowing.

So I ''invent'' a product. I want to make a prototype, and sell it in large quantities. How do I go about it? Is a patent necessary? What rights or perks do I gain with that? My idea was to register it, mostly because thats what i have been taught to do, I honestly have no clue what it is a bout. At the moment I am more concerned with making this thing, because I need it to ease and simplify my work on set or doing studio shoots, and so on.

On the one side I want to develop it, and seeking out all the help I can. Obviously I don't want the idea stolen, because I could really use the potential money for paying off my company loans.

I don't know what wisdom would be at this point.

[ade]

Ralf there are a ton of considerations whether or not to patent.  Patents give you some protection against your idea being stolen my someone else.  More and more, patents are also used defensively -- in a crowded market where many companies have similar ideas, patents are used to deter others from suing you from infringing on their patents (because you can probably sue back using your patents).  Patent detente.

When considering a new product invention, it's always a good procedure to search for existing patents, because you don't want to get caught infringing on other people's patents. 

Unfortunately, from the little I know about your idea, it looks like there are already many existing products (and patents) for similar ideas.  If it's solely for work, you might be better off just buying one of the similar products. 

You can still patent an invention if it is a improvement over an existing patent.  On the flip side, you may need to license and pay royalties to holders of existing patents -- if they allow you to license their invention at all.

In general, if you have a new product idea, then you should work on creating a prototype.  If the invention is outside your area of expertise, then you can either partner with someone or hire a company to develop the prototype for you.  At the same time, you should work with a patent specialist to see whether you can patent the invention (and/or if you will be infringing on other people's patents). 

In some jurisdictions, you can file what is called a "provisional patent".  It is a simplified filing to get your patent an early "priority date" on file.  However patent laws are complex and a specialist from your area would be able to advise you on the best way to proceed.

Patents aside, the process of bringing a new product to market can be bewildering.  It takes a lot of time & effort (and money), not just perfecting the invention but on legal, marketing, sales, support, manufacturing, etc.  You might be interested to take one of the many free entrepreneurship courses being offered from sites like Coursera or EdX. 

You are actually lucky being from the Netherlands -- your country is one of the centers for entrepreneurship, and there are a lot government and private sector resources from which you can draw on.  Even though I am in Canada I have many friends and business colleagues from the Netherlands.  (I can ask them about Dutch startup resources if you'd like).

One of the best ways in thinking about a new product and entrepreneurship is to surround yourself with others with the same mindset.  Maybe there are local meetups for startups, etc.  Even if this particular idea is not patentable, maybe you will come up with other inventions in the future.

[Brumby]

All of the above ... and then some.


Patents are indeed a significant topic.  I would suggest you ask around to find yourself a decent patent attorney and have a chat with them.

Also, the cost of patenting a device will increase as you look at covering several countries.  There is no such thing as a truly 'World Wide' patent and you'll have to go through the exercise multiple times for multiple jurisdictions.  In addition, there are some timing issues you will need to be aware of as well.

[tggzzz]

One thing often overlooked is that patents are (roughly speaking) a way for you to stop other people making your design.

Another consideration is that other people might patent something more or less similar to your design, and then stop you making your design. If you want to protect yourself against that, then all you have to do is publish in some journal of record. That is much cheaper and doesn't have to involve a lawyer.

[Brumby]

One thing often overlooked is that patents are (roughly speaking) a way for you to stop other people making your design.

Another consideration is that other people might patent something more or less similar to your design, and then stop you making your design. If you want to protect yourself against that, then all you have to do is publish in some journal of record. That is much cheaper and doesn't have to involve a lawyer.

Once a design is published, it cannot be patented.  If you want a patent, get it first (or at least the application lodged) and then you can publish.  ** Check with a patent attorney for details before taking any action.

[SL4P]

Also, don't make any patent application too specific in detail... be as 'vague as possible' that the patent body will accept (ask your lawyer).  Too much detail, and someone else can 'use three screws instead of four' - and your protection becomes very fragile.

Also look into a 'provisional patent' which gives you  lot of protection for very little money during the first 12 months while you're getting your problems and filing in order.

Innovation patents are expensive, and need to be applied separately in each WIPO region.
Application and acceptance only has to be filed once if accepted - not yearly.

[ade]

I mentioned it before but I don't believe one can file a provisional patent application in Europe (European Patent Office.)

[SL4P]

aaah ok, didn't know that.

[Wilksey]

Is your idea innovative enough to patent? Do solutions already exist? If not, have others not created this product because it is too niche or too simple to worry about creating it?

I have never had to patent anything, but it sounds like a complete ball ache! So I would be damned sure it is worth going through the hassle and cost before committing to it!

[tggzzz]

Don't forget to include the costs of defending or enforcing a patent.

The case of Armstrong and his FM patent is a cautionary tale. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Howard_Armstrong#Death

[Brumby]

There is another school of thought on the subject - and that is along the lines of "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

The idea is that you don't fret too much about protection of the intellectual property and just get your widget out in the marketplace to make a strong presence and establish yourself as the source of the widget.  Others may copy the design - but you will be the name associated with the product and also be known as having 'the original widget'.  Registering a trademark would be highly recommended (and that recommendation would apply no matter what).

Whether this is even an option for you will be a function of exactly what the product is, the demand that it will attract and a few other parameters.  As such, I'm not suggesting you travel this path - I only offer it as an alternative to consider.

[RalfSchooneveld]

There is another school of thought on the subject - and that is along the lines of "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

The idea is that you don't fret too much about protection of the intellectual property and just get your widget out in the marketplace to make a strong presence and establish yourself as the source of the widget.  Others may copy the design - but you will be the name associated with the product and also be known as having 'the original widget'.  Registering a trademark would be highly recommended (and that recommendation would apply no matter what).

Whether this is even an option for you will be a function of exactly what the product is, the demand that it will attract and a few other parameters.  As such, I'm not suggesting you travel this path - I only offer it as an alternative to consider.

Well, to be honest, that is what I am doing now. I am looking for a person to pretty much guide me as to what to buy and how to assemble a prototype. Personally I would love it for Dave, or some other down to earth guy, to mentor me on this. But I have no idea if I could get to him, or that he would be interested in it.

[Lightages]

Another consideration. If you have a patent, and don't defend it, you lose the rights to the patent. Some big company can step in and start copying your product and you don't have the money to pay the attorneys to fight for you patent you are out of luck.

As said before, better just to get the product to the market and flood it before it is profitable to copy it.

[ade]

Another consideration. If you have a patent, and don't defend it, you lose the rights to the patent.

No, you cannot lose patent rights by not defending it.  At least not in US/Canada and most likely not in Europe either.  Maybe you're mixing up patents with copyrights?

The danger of just forging full speed ahead is if you are (perhaps unknowingly to you) infringing on other people's patents.  If you're not on solid legal ground, getting served by that "cease and desist" letter will ruin your day. Your business and all the money + effort you've sunk into it will be on the line.

[Lightages]

Another consideration. If you have a patent, and don't defend it, you lose the rights to the patent.

No, you cannot lose patent rights by not defending it.  At least not in US/Canada and most likely not in Europe either.  Maybe you're mixing up patents with copyrights?

The danger of just forging full speed ahead is if you are (perhaps unknowingly to you) infringing on other people's patents.  If you're not on solid legal ground, getting served by that "cease and desist" letter will ruin your day. Your business and all the money + effort you've sunk into it will be on the line.

Hmmm, perhaps you are right about my confusion. Here is a case against patents however:
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf

[ade]

Hmmm, perhaps you are right about my confusion. Here is a case against patents however:
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf

He's clarified over the years that patents may not be worth it for small businesses and inventors.  At the time he calculated that you must expect a revenue of over $12 million for patents to make sense.

I believe his dollar analysis was actually wrong, but regardless, I mostly agree with his conclusions. 

However, that doesn't mean an inventor should not do a patent search to understand the legal landscape, and develop a good business case.

Also, patent laws in the US in particular has changed since the article was written in 1990.   When Don wrote that article, the US was under the "First to Invent" system.  Under this system, as soon as you disclose your invention (e.g., your product), no one else can obtain a patent for it.  So for a small business, there was little reason to burden the high patent process costs.

But as of March 2013, the US has switched to a "First Inventor to File" (FITF) system, similar to the system used in most other countries (Canada switched in 1989).  With the FITF system, if you don't patent your invention, someone else might come along and successfully patent it. 

As the original inventor you may be able get this patent invalidated, but the burden (read: high costs) has now shifted to you.  You may need to spend $500k just for the privilege of invalidating someone elses patent on your invention.  And even if you win, you'll never get that money back.

If you have some real core technology, do not reveal the design, and make it hard to be copied by obfuscating it.

Maybe, maybe not.  The legal world is full of unintuitive consequences.  If you obfuscate how your product operates, then that also takes away a key legal defense in case of a patent lawsuit.  I.e., you can't claim that you had prior art to a patent by providing an obfuscated product as proof.   Prior art depends on disclosure of an invention, and an obfuscated product is obviously not considered disclosure.

[ade]

Even the fucking Android phones use some Apple patents, and the bottom line is, who fucking cares?

Yes, in China, no one apparently cares, especially students who have no skin in the game.

But unfortunately elsewhere in the world, businesses get sued for patent infringement each and every single day.

And when you are a business owner, and you've invested your life savings into the business, you will care.

Deciding not to patent is one thing (possibly a smart move.)   Deciding to "not care" and willfully infringe on other people's patents could be a very, very costly mistake.

[ade]

Who cares if you are willfully or not?

I do.  And I encourage other inventors to care as well.