Okay circa $100 oscilloscopes?

[jarwulf]

I've been browsing for my first beginner oscilloscopes. For my current purposes I just would like something that could at least measure khz to 1mhZ and 0-12V with two channels. The more the better obviously. I would prefer to keep it around 100 so I've been looking mainly at USB ones. Are the Hantek 6022BE or more expensive Hantek 6022BL with logic analyzer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hantek-6022BE-PC-Based-USB-Digital-Storag-Oscilloscope-2Channels-20MHz-48MSa-s-/221270085136?hash=item3384b98e10:g:gmYAAOxy4dNSsWQ2

or

OWON VDS1022
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OWON-VDS1022-USB-25MHz-100MS-s-USB-PC-Digital-Storage-Portable-Oscilloscope-/350961248524?hash=item51b6eba90c:g:w5QAAOxygPtSt-Xo

or this barebones sainsmart DSO138?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SainSmart-DSO138-2-4-TFT-Digital-Oscilloscope-Kit-DIY-parts-1Msps-with-probe-/121663892686?hash=item1c53bbacce:g:iQAAAOSwu4BVzEyg

okay for these purposes? Or are their better options available? What exactly is the difference between a scope with a logic analyzer and one without it?

[smbaker]

If it was me and I was in your position, I'd probably save up for the Rigol DS1054Z. I've been getting a ton of use out of mine lately, in a variety of projects. Unfortunately, it's around 4X your budget.

If the $100 budget is a hard limit, then have you considered buying a used analog scope? I originally learned on an old 20Mhz BK precision. There's just something about having real physical knobs to turn that you're not going to experience from a USB scope. The disadvantage of an analog scope is that you lose out on any digital measurement and waveform storage capabilities. This week I shelved the Rigol and brought out the old BK precision to do some radio alignments, and it was really a nostalgic joy using the analog scope again.

[jarwulf]

If it was me and I was in your position, I'd probably save up for the Rigol DS1054Z. I've been getting a ton of use out of mine lately, in a variety of projects. Unfortunately, it's around 4X your budget.

If the $100 budget is a hard limit, then have you considered buying a used analog scope? I originally learned on an old 20Mhz BK precision. There's just something about having real physical knobs to turn that you're not going to experience from a USB scope. The disadvantage of an analog scope is that you lose out on any digital measurement and waveform storage capabilities. This week I shelved the Rigol and brought out the old BK precision to do some radio alignments, and it was really a nostalgic joy using the analog scope again.

what sort of analog scope would you recommend?

[tautech]

Any CRO that is cheap with Service manuals that are freely available for it.

This presumes you have the skills to repair it if necessary although plenty here can assist if you get stuck.

[jarwulf]

Definitely give VDS1022 a try. I've never used a Hantek, so I can not say that for sure. I currently own a VDS3102L, which is just an upgraded version of VDS1022. I believe VDS1022 has an isolated version, be sure to buy that version, even more expensive. That will come in very handy.

My experience with VDS3102L is it is that a capable device in terms of most basic functions, definitely much better than a CRO, but there are no advance features such as decoding or whatever new fancy functions. Its trigger speed is not fast, definitely not in the 10K+ wfms/s league, but still, much better than a CRO.

An upside is it has 10Mpts memory, which is huge -- as a comparison, my Agilent MSOX3104A has only 4Mpts. However, beware its software is buggy in cache handling. It won't perform zooming on chip, so it will dump all its sampling memory to host computer when you try to zoom a single shot capture, and this transfer takes 20 seconds.

Finally, this unit demands a least 1A 5V, so low quality cables or some laptops can not power it up successfully. Make sure to buy a thick beefy USB cable.

is the version I linked to the isolated version you are referring to? Or is it the one called the
VDS1022L?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OWON-VDS1022L-USB-Isolation-PC-Digital-Storage-Portable-Oscilloscope-25MHz-/121240715851?hash=item1c3a82824b:g:kAEAAOxy63FSt-BW

A logic analyzer isn't necessary for basic purposes right?

[vk6zgo]

My experience with VDS3102L is it is that a capable device in terms of most basic functions, definitely much better than a CRO, but there are no advance features such as decoding or whatever new fancy functions.

Its trigger speed is not fast, definitely not in the 10K+ wfms/s league, but still, much better than a CRO.
.

You've lost me on this one.
Surely waveforms/second is to do with display speed,not triggering?

They are directly related with an analog Oscilloscope,but not so directly with a DSO.
A CRO has no memory,so it has no alternative but to display the signal it sees.

If I set my 7B53A timebase to 100ns /div,& display a 1MHz signal,it appears on the screen as one cycle filling the whole ten time/div graticule steps,at the same rate as the input signal.
In other words 1000000 wfm/sec.

OK,there is a bit of lost time,due to retrace,but it is that,"near as dammit!"
If I switch my vert amp to "alternate",the wfm/sec halves---the signal is lost during the alternate time.

Triggering is something quite different from time/div ----the 7613 with 7B53A  will trigger on the (very much reduced in amplitude) signal from my 144MHz Ham transceiver.

Obviously,it can't show one cycle,but it (just) triggers---flukey occurrence with one particular unit,probably.
I'm quite sure Tektronix never guaranteed it would do that!

[vk6zgo]

The problems is, an analog scope can not show an event happens at 0.1% probability because the intensity is too low. While a digital scope, if its update rate is fast enough, it will actually show this on screen.

Many digital scopes will show rare events with either solid trace (an OWON one) or intensity graded traces (a proper one), so you can see infrequent waveforms.

Indeed,but that wasn't how your statement read.

[jarwulf]

1022L has isolated LAN, while 1022I has isolated USB. I highly recommend 1022I, instead of 1022L.

In my 3102L's implementation, its isolated LAN is basically a joke, and if you rely on it, it can kill you pretty soon.

The LAN module's isolation gap is only 8 mils, or even worst, 6 mils.

On the other hand, the 1022I's implementation is better, as it has very wide isolation gaps.

BTW, 1022 draws less power than 3102, so USB cable requirement can be lifted a little.

Here's a teardown of 1022I, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-vds1022i-quick-teardown-%28versus-the-hantek-6022be%29/.

The link claims that the 1022L has isolated USB.

[Simon]

Don't get OWON

[smbaker]

what sort of analog scope would you recommend?

The only one I'm familiar with is my BK Precision, which is a 2120B, and has served me well. There's nothing fancy about it -- it's a basic 30Mhz dual channel scope.

If I were looking to buy a used scope, I'd look for a brand that's well known and has a service manual (I'm sure people here can advise), and a listing that indicated the seller had some idea what he was selling and had performed some rudimentary tests on it. Beware of "It powers up but I don't know how to test it". While analog scopes are repairable, if you're just learning then you probably want to start with one that works rather than one that's broken.

[EEVblog]

The problems is, an analog scope can not show an event happens at 0.1% probability because the intensity is too low. While a digital scope, if its update rate is fast enough, it will actually show this on screen.
Many digital scopes will show rare events with either solid trace (an OWON one) or intensity graded traces (a proper one), so you can see infrequent waveforms.

Leave a digital scope running long enough with infinite persistence turned on, and it becomes an incredibly powerful intermittent fault finding tool that is unmatched by anything else.

[EEVblog]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/METRIX-0X-8050-100MS-s-60MHZ-DIGITAL-ANALOG-2-CHANNEL-OSCILLOSCOPE-N140828YEH-/221959328250

[mtdoc]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/METRIX-0X-8050-100MS-s-60MHZ-DIGITAL-ANALOG-2-CHANNEL-OSCILLOSCOPE-N140828YEH-/221959328250

$50  but shipping is $159! 

[Gyro]

Here's the VDS1022I teardown thread, it covers the VDS1022 and 'I' variants. A number of China sellers seem to be using 'I' and 'L' interchangeably for USB isolation, you need to look at the item description. As far as I'm aware Owon haven't done a LAN isolation version of the 1022, though it is a silk screen option on the rear panel and is offered on some of the higher spec scopes like the VDS3102.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-vds1022i-quick-teardown-%28versus-the-hantek-6022be%29/

I'm making no specific recommendations, other than that it's a hell of a lot better than the Hantek 6022. I'm a fan of analogue scopes if cash-strapped too. It depends whether you're more into analogue / audio etc or whether you have a need (edit:for) single shot storage for digital stuff... compromises, compromises 

Take a look at this current thread too:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/sh-cro-vs-dso-%28again%29/



Just on a side note:

@Simon:

Don't get OWON

You seem to throw this quote in to these threads with monotonous regularity and predictably these days. No qualification, no explanation! While you may have some unspecified 'beef' with Owon desktops, Owon do actually seem to have produced a pretty good (best of the bunch anyway) low cost USB scope that offers isolation, intelligently designed hardware (not 'yet another ez-USB streamer') and decent more or less bug-free software. I don't want to pick a fight but such a blanket unhelpful comment when people are trying to learn is hardly befitting of a Moderator.

(Edit: typo)

[JacquesBBB]

+1.  Totally agree on the comment which I could not have phrased better.

Additionally, I would say that it makes sense to buy a 100$ USB isolated  oscilloscope board, as even if later on you upgrade to a full size scope,  you will still have use of the USB board due to.

- silence
- portability
- isolation

[Simon]

Many digital scopes will show rare events with either solid trace (an OWON* one) or intensity graded traces (a proper one), so you can see infrequent waveforms.

* Terms and conditions apply: the power supply board on your OWON scope may fail prematurely at any time making the likely hood of using it for anything prettly low**

** unless you use the battery or your own power brick hacked onto the battery terminals.

[EEVblog]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/METRIX-0X-8050-100MS-s-60MHZ-DIGITAL-ANALOG-2-CHANNEL-OSCILLOSCOPE-N140828YEH-/221959328250

$50  but shipping is $159! 

Doh, I thought it was a US seller.

[Gyro]

* Terms and conditions apply: the power supply board on your OWON scope may fail prematurely at any time making the likely hood of using it for anything prettly low**

** unless you use the battery or your own power brick hacked onto the battery terminals.

Ok, comments about Owon desktop scopes then, not relevant to the OP's price range and the USB ones have neither of these. For what it's worth the VDS1022 has (edit: intensity graded) variable persistence (up to infinite).

Thanks for providing a slightly less blanket comment. 

[Simon]

* Terms and conditions apply: the power supply board on your OWON scope may fail prematurely at any time making the likely hood of using it for anything prettly low**

** unless you use the battery or your own power brick hacked onto the battery terminals.

Ok, comments about Owon desktop scopes then, not relevant to the OP's price range and the USB ones have neither of these. For what it's worth the VDS1022 has variable persistence (up to infinite).

Thanks for providing a slightly less blanket comment. 

I'd be pretty pissed of if i was a beginner and bought the cheapest scope I could afford only to have it blow after just hours of use (that could soread over years of ownership) the 60MHz version is affordable and may be tempting but I'd not touch any of the range again with a flipping barge pole.

[Gyro]

Huh? I just said that the USB ones don't have a PSU board (presumably the original comment applied to the mains supply board) It is USB powered. 

P.S. Thank you for reverting to a COMPLETELY blanket statement! 

[Cliff Matthews]

I bought 2 HP 1740A's for $100 recently (pristine inside). Dave replaced a 1A rectifier in an great 2-part video last month, but both of mine have the Rev B power board with the 4A bridge upgrade. I'm taking it slow, so the first thing I did was download the service and op PDF's and remove the center power PCB to check all the voltages. Even if you don't buy one, the video is worth every minute spent watching it.

[jarwulf]

1022L has isolated LAN, while 1022I has isolated USB. I highly recommend 1022I, instead of 1022L.

In my 3102L's implementation, its isolated LAN is basically a joke, and if you rely on it, it can kill you pretty soon.

The LAN module's isolation gap is only 8 mils, or even worst, 6 mils.

On the other hand, the 1022I's implementation is better, as it has very wide isolation gaps.

BTW, 1022 draws less power than 3102, so USB cable requirement can be lifted a little.

Here's a teardown of 1022I, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/owon-vds1022i-quick-teardown-%28versus-the-hantek-6022be%29/.

The link claims that the 1022L has isolated USB.

The link is for 1022I.

The ebay link I provided the seller says the 1022L has USB isolation. Would there be any significant difference between the I and L models then?

[Gyro]

I almost missed LogicalDave's post in the teardown thread from yesterday. He's successfully retro-fitted the USB isolation parts to a vanilla VDS1022 (the AD USB isolator and TI isolated DC-DC). I haven't looked into the component cost vs current selling prices, but nice to have confirmation that there are no gotchas.

There's the 3yr warranty to consider too of course but I guess it depends on the potential saving. Nice to have the option at a future date anyway.

[Gyro]

Curious, I've not seen that issue, everything just worked in English, with S/W updates downloaded from their website too. Just lucky? 

P.S. Not sure the OP is actually anywhere near decided yet, he would be wise to carefully consider S/H Analogue and other options against his needs first.

[Gyro]

I bought mine from a China registered ebay seller who advised that he had stock in the UK. I registered its serial number on the Owon site (including approx UK location) without any difficulty (and have received s/w support with reporting a s/w bug too). It never occurred to me that there might be a 'China-locked' version - in fact in the teardown I didn't find anywhere that the serial number might be stored internally, I'm pretty sure the FPGA code is downloaded on startup.

Edit: Maybe we should take this across to the teardown thread if you want to investigate further to avoid polluting the OPs thread.