Author Topic: Resonance of LC  (Read 25114 times)

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Offline nForceTopic starter

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2017, 07:03:59 pm »
When I get the impedance of the whole circuit, probably as a rational function I rationalize the denominator and then equate the imaginary units with 0. (Im(Z) = 0). But I have the j terms in this equation. What do I have to do with them?
 

Offline rfeecs

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2017, 07:13:32 pm »
That doesn't make sense.
If Z is of the form a+jb.  If Im(Z)=0, then b=0.

Maybe share an example where you have the problem.
 
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Offline nForceTopic starter

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2017, 09:36:51 pm »
Oh, sorry my bad you are right.

In this way I get a result, but how do I know if the computed value is a current resonance or voltage resonance? How to differ them?
 

Offline rfeecs

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2017, 09:56:42 pm »
but how do I know if the computed value is a current resonance or voltage resonance? How to differ them?

I have no idea.  I'm not sure that it is possible just by looking at impedance.
 
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Offline orolo

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2017, 11:38:30 pm »
To make sure there is resonance, you need to look a bit around the points of real impedance.

First, imagine a load made of lots of passives, Rs, Ls and Cs. Combining them in series and parallel, you wind up with an equivalent load ZL whose value is a formula dependent on the frequency, some rational function p(s)/q(s), where s is the complex frequency s = I·w.

Imagine that, for some (angular) frequency w0, that load impedance is a real number. Why can you consider that there is a resonance? Start with the fact that the load impedance at that frequency is \$Z_L(\omega_0) = R_L\$, some real number. That isn't saying too much: we only know that at that very precise frequency you have something like a resistor load. So let us see what happens at nearby frequencies. Since rational functions are smooth enough, near the resonat frequency the impedance must be, to first order, a small variation of that real load:

\$Z_L(\omega_0 + \mathrm{d}\omega) \ = \ R_L + (a + bi)\mathrm{d}\omega \$

where a and b are some real numbers. Further, imagine that b is not zero (that would be a rather singular case). If we aggregate things a bit, near the resonant frequency we have:

\$Z_L(\omega_0 + \mathrm{d}\omega) \ = \left(R_L + a\mathrm{d}\omega\right) \, + \, ib\mathrm{d}\omega \$

What this formula is saying us is that, near the resonant frequency, as frequency rises impedance goes from capacitive to inductive (if b>0), or as inductive to capacitve (if b<0). If b is a big number, that transition will be very fast: this is somehow related to the Q of the resonance.

So a resonant frequency can be considered a point where load impedance goes from capacitive to inductive. How is this related to oscillation? Imagine that load is connected to some non-inverting gain element, for example, the virtual ground of an operational amplifier. If the gain is big enough, at resonance the opamp will feed back a signal in phase and cause oscillation at frequency w0. However, as you move away from w0, the phase shift caused by the increasing reactance (the i·b·dw term) will make oscillation impossible. You get a sinusoidal oscillation only at frequency w0.

The low pass filter of the previous posts is not a great resonator because the transitions were really slow: impedance was real (about 100 + 0j) at 162MHz, and reached about 290 + 79j ohms at 200MHz. That's a slope b = 79/(200-162) = 2 ohms/MHz! The 200MHz resonance is a bit better, but compare that to a crystal resonator, who can have slopes of hundreds of ohms per Hertz. Now that is resonance.

To summarize, just considering an LC network for its resonances is a restricted point of view. You get a convoluted variation of impedance with increasing frequency, and you can achieve a lot more than selecting a very specific frequency with that behavior. Besides, as MrAl said, there are other points of view about resonance, for example, tracking the stored energy in the system when you inject a sinusoid into it. A good part of the problem is defining resonance of the LC network in uninequivocal terms.
 
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Offline nForceTopic starter

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2017, 09:54:05 am »
Quote
You should specify whether you are referring to resonance in series or parallel circuits. For both series and parallel circuits, resonance occurs when the orthogonal component of the series voltage sums to zero, or parallel current orthogonal components sum to zero.  In series resonance, the lowest impedance occurs at resonance, and the voltage-current phase is zero.  In parallel resonance, there are three frequencies of note.  The frequency of resonance, the frequency of maximum impedance, and the frequency of zero voltage-current phase.  If the Q of the circuit is high (greater than 10), the three frequencies will be very close together.  It is also possible to make a parallel circuit resonant at all frequencies provided resistance is present in the circuit.  Furthermore, parallel resonance can be made to occur at two different values of L or C if resistance is present. 

Ratch what do you mean by series and parallel circuit? So series = voltage, and parallel = current?

 

Offline MrAl

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2017, 01:38:08 pm »
So if I understand correctly, we can find resonance frequencies with transfer function or by solving Im(Z) = 0?

I don't know what I do with the "j" term? Even if I rationalize the denominator, I still have the "j" term somewhere.


Hello again,

One way to investigate is to find the transfer function Hs and then find |Hs| and then solve this:
d|Hs|/dw=0

and look for all local or absolute min and max's.

The 'j' is the imaginary operator.  To calculate the amplitude you can convert to the general case:
Hs=a+b*j

and then use:
|Hs|=sqrt(a^2+b^2)

where
a is the real part,
b is the imaginary part (with the 'j').

The phase shift if you need it is:
Ph=atan2(b,a)

"atan2" is the two argument inverse tangent function which covers the full 0 to 360 degree range.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:44:24 pm by MrAl »
 
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Offline nForceTopic starter

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2017, 02:22:19 pm »
MrAI,
do you understand this: please answer if do. Thank you.

Quote
You should specify whether you are referring to resonance in series or parallel circuits. For both series and parallel circuits, resonance occurs when the orthogonal component of the series voltage sums to zero, or parallel current orthogonal components sum to zero.  In series resonance, the lowest impedance occurs at resonance, and the voltage-current phase is zero.  In parallel resonance, there are three frequencies of note.  The frequency of resonance, the frequency of maximum impedance, and the frequency of zero voltage-current phase.  If the Q of the circuit is high (greater than 10), the three frequencies will be very close together.  It is also possible to make a parallel circuit resonant at all frequencies provided resistance is present in the circuit.  Furthermore, parallel resonance can be made to occur at two different values of L or C if resistance is present. 

Ratch what do you mean by series and parallel circuit? So series = voltage, and parallel = current?

 

Offline MrAl

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2017, 03:01:34 pm »
MrAI,
do you understand this: please answer if do. Thank you.

Quote
You should specify whether you are referring to resonance in series or parallel circuits. For both series and parallel circuits, resonance occurs when the orthogonal component of the series voltage sums to zero, or parallel current orthogonal components sum to zero.  In series resonance, the lowest impedance occurs at resonance, and the voltage-current phase is zero.  In parallel resonance, there are three frequencies of note.  The frequency of resonance, the frequency of maximum impedance, and the frequency of zero voltage-current phase.  If the Q of the circuit is high (greater than 10), the three frequencies will be very close together.  It is also possible to make a parallel circuit resonant at all frequencies provided resistance is present in the circuit.  Furthermore, parallel resonance can be made to occur at two different values of L or C if resistance is present. 

Ratch what do you mean by series and parallel circuit? So series = voltage, and parallel = current?

Hello again,

It appears that you may be after something that may not matter to the circuit at hand.

For the circuit at hand, which is the one with the multiple components, i tried to show what the important thing is for the analysis.  It is certainly up to you though if you want to per something else that may or may not be related to the circuit, and i realize that other things come up sometimes too.

With that in mind, the critical frequencies i found are close to:
5.0653345640775*10^7,1.371919896056*10^8,9.536195775181*10^7,1.629471368511*10^8,2.0*10^8

except for that last one which is the supposed 3db down point.

The relative amplitudes at those frequencies are:
[0.9962,0.994,1.0,1.0,0.73618]

and as we can see that means the circuit functions mostly as a low pass filter because the other amplitudes do not vary that much from nearly 0db.  That last one is the 200MHz amplitude, and we see that it is not exactly 3db down, but for this circuit there would be other factors that set in anyway like the parasitic elements.

So what i am really saying here is that for the electrical guy physical resonance may not be what we want to look at anyway.

I would also suggest that we look at some simpler examples.


 
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Offline Ratch

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2017, 03:48:08 pm »
So if I understand correctly, we can find resonance frequencies with transfer function or by solving Im(Z) = 0?

I don't know what I do with the "j" term? Even if I rationalize the denominator, I still have the "j" term somewhere.



And Ratch what do you mean by series or parallel circuits, that there's a difference. We can have a mixed parallel and series elements.

You would do well to Google for some of your questions.  http://pediaa.com/difference-between-series-and-parallel-resonance/

Setting the j term of the impedance to zero will give you the frequency of resonance.  There might be several frequencies at which a circuit resonates, or it might resonate at all frequencies.  I can give you an example if you wish.

Ratch
Hopelessly Pedantic
 
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Offline Ratch

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2017, 04:07:12 pm »
I calculated the reactance of the circuit from 0 to 2 GHz and plotted it.  I used r=50 for the source and load impedance.  It looks like resonance occurs at three points other than zero.  The reactance appears to be negative most of the time.  The calculation was too long to show here.  Unfortunately, i don't seem to be able to post the plot, but it shows reactance at zero at 0.55 Ghz, 1.02 GHz, and 1.22 GHz.

Ratch
Hmm.  That's not what I get.  I get zero reactance at about 81MHz, 95MHz, 162MHz, and 196MHz.  I used LTSPICE.  File is attached.  Also attached is a plot of Zin in the real-imaginary plane.

I did not use LTSpice.  I calculated the impedance of the circuit using 50 ohms resistance for both the source and load impedance.  Then I plotted the reactance and found the zeros.  If you really give a damn, I can post my calculations, if I can get this forum to allow me to include jpg files.

Ratch
Hopelessly Pedantic
 
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Offline nForceTopic starter

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2017, 06:14:00 pm »
I think, it's better if I give a simple example of a circuit, and my attempt to solve:

http://shrani.si/f/k/oB/4jLK5yDq/circuit.jpg

I don't know how to insert Latex code here, so I have photograph the "solution". How to continue here?
 

Offline MrAl

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2017, 07:00:13 pm »
I think, it's better if I give a simple example of a circuit, and my attempt to solve:

http://shrani.si/f/k/oB/4jLK5yDq/circuit.jpg

I don't know how to insert Latex code here, so I have photograph the "solution". How to continue here?

Hi,

What are you trying to calculate there, when the impedance is zero?
 
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Offline rfeecs

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2017, 07:06:00 pm »
I think, it's better if I give a simple example of a circuit, and my attempt to solve:

http://shrani.si/f/k/oB/4jLK5yDq/circuit.jpg

I don't know how to insert Latex code here, so I have photograph the "solution". How to continue here?
I think you have a sign error.  An additional problem with that circuit is that the resonance occurs where the impedance goes to infinity.
 
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Offline rfeecs

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2017, 07:12:01 pm »
Just to add more confusion, the attached circuit clearly has a resonance, but the impedance is purely real, equal to 50 ohms.

So finding resonances by looking at the impedance doesn't always work.
 
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Offline Ratch

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2017, 08:19:52 pm »
I think, it's better if I give a simple example of a circuit, and my attempt to solve:

http://shrani.si/f/k/oB/4jLK5yDq/circuit.jpg

I don't know how to insert Latex code here, so I have photograph the "solution". How to continue here?

Your calculations are wrong. The impedance of inductance is j*L*omega and the impedance of C is -j/(C*omega). Unfortunately, I am unable to post jpg files on this forum, so I cannot show you.

Ratch
Hopelessly Pedantic
 
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Offline MrAl

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2017, 08:43:00 pm »
Just to add more confusion, the attached circuit clearly has a resonance, but the impedance is purely real, equal to 50 ohms.

So finding resonances by looking at the impedance doesn't always work.

Hi,

That looks like it could be a very good example.

I dont know why anyone would have so much difficulty accepting the critical points calculation outlined earlier in this thread.  Maybe because it leads to complicated complex algebraic expressions?

 
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Offline Ratch

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2017, 08:58:09 pm »
Just to add more confusion, the attached circuit clearly has a resonance, but the impedance is purely real, equal to 50 ohms.

So finding resonances by looking at the impedance doesn't always work.

That is an example of a circuit which is resonant at all frequencies.  I mentioned such a circuit in post #34 of this thread.

Ratch
Hopelessly Pedantic
 
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Offline nForceTopic starter

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2017, 09:06:48 pm »
Quote
What are you trying to calculate there, when the impedance is zero?

I took the reactance, but because there is a "j" term in the fraction so I have to take the whole.

Quote
An additional problem with that circuit is that the resonance occurs where the impedance goes to infinity.

How do you know?

Quote
Your calculations are wrong. The impedance of inductance is j*L*omega and the impedance of C is -j/(C*omega). Unfortunately, I am unable to post jpg files on this forum, so I cannot show you.

Ratch

Yes it is. If you look at the fraction it's 1/1/(jwC) which is equal to jwC.

 

Offline Ratch

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2017, 10:07:11 pm »
Quote
What are you trying to calculate there, when the impedance is zero?

I took the reactance, but because there is a "j" term in the fraction so I have to take the whole.

Quote
An additional problem with that circuit is that the resonance occurs where the impedance goes to infinity.

How do you know?

Quote
Your calculations are wrong. The impedance of inductance is j*L*omega and the impedance of C is -j/(C*omega). Unfortunately, I am unable to post jpg files on this forum, so I cannot show you.

Ratch

Yes it is. If you look at the fraction it's 1/1/(jwC) which is equal to jwC.

You are correct.  My mistake, sorry.  But you made a mistake in your algebra.  You divided by j to eliminate it from the equation.  Unfortunately, one of the terms you divided into had a 1/j literal, so the term became minus, and instead of canceling, the two terms add negatively.

Ratch
Hopelessly Pedantic
 
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Offline rfeecs

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2017, 10:12:28 pm »
Just to add more confusion, the attached circuit clearly has a resonance, but the impedance is purely real, equal to 50 ohms.

So finding resonances by looking at the impedance doesn't always work.

That is an example of a circuit which is resonant at all frequencies.  I mentioned such a circuit in post #34 of this thread.

Ratch

How is it resonant at all frequencies?  Explain that one.

Oh, because the reactance is zero at all frequencies, maybe?  Then a resistor is resonant at all frequencies.

I don't get it.  I think it has a very definite resonance at one frequency, around 159MHz.
 

Offline rfeecs

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2017, 10:46:42 pm »
Just to add more confusion, the attached circuit clearly has a resonance, but the impedance is purely real, equal to 50 ohms.

So finding resonances by looking at the impedance doesn't always work.

That is an example of a circuit which is resonant at all frequencies.  I mentioned such a circuit in post #34 of this thread.

Ratch

How is it resonant at all frequencies?  Explain that one.

Oh, because the reactance is zero at all frequencies, maybe?  Then a resistor is resonant at all frequencies.

I don't get it.  I think it has a very definite resonance at one frequency, around 159MHz.

OK, I guess I see it now.  If you look at the two main arms of the circuit, the capacitive and inductive susceptance are equal and opposite at all frequencies and they cancel out.

I guess you could say that is resonating at all frequencies.  Very strange way to look at it.  But OK.
 

Offline Ratch

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2017, 12:50:36 am »
rfeecs,

Yes, you have the right idea.  A single resistor only dissipates energy.  The circuit you submitted transfers energy between its energy storage components.  If only I could attach jpg files to my posts, I could show you some more interesting aspects of those kind of circuits.  Every time I choose a file, it shows up in the file attachment box, but i cannot move it into my message. 

Ratch
Hopelessly Pedantic
 

Offline rfeecs

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2017, 01:12:23 am »
rfeecs,

Yes, you have the right idea.  A single resistor only dissipates energy.  The circuit you submitted transfers energy between its energy storage components.  If only I could attach jpg files to my posts, I could show you some more interesting aspects of those kind of circuits.  Every time I choose a file, it shows up in the file attachment box, but i cannot move it into my message. 

Ratch

The attachments don't show up in the preview, but they will show up at the end of the post as a thumbnail.

Here's a thread that talks about how to put an image inline with your message:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-to-include-images-in-a-post/
 

Offline Ratch

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Re: Resonance of LC
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2017, 02:00:53 am »
rfeecs,

Yes, you have the right idea.  A single resistor only dissipates energy.  The circuit you submitted transfers energy between its energy storage components.  If only I could attach jpg files to my posts, I could show you some more interesting aspects of those kind of circuits.  Every time I choose a file, it shows up in the file attachment box, but i cannot move it into my message. 

Ratch


The attachments don't show up in the preview, but they will show up at the end of the post as a thumbnail.

Here's a thread that talks about how to put an image inline with your message:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-to-include-images-in-a-post/

I will try again.

OK, I think I got the idea.  It's clunky and clumsy compared to the other forums, but i think I got it now.  I will post more about resonant circuits shortly.l

Ratch
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 02:08:19 am by Ratch »
Hopelessly Pedantic
 


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