Scope below $600 For 17 year old

[jozer12]

Hi I'm Jozef,
Im new to the forums but i have been watching Dave's videos for a year or two now. so i guess ill say something about myself.
I dream to become a pilot one day, already saved up enough money to get me a few hours of flight training.
I also love playing around with electronics, since i first figured out how a screwdriver worked my parents were annoyed at me for taking everything electronic apart.
At my highschool i did a year 12 systems engineering class while in year 11. For the main project i had to solve a problem using a complex electromechanical solution. I liked the idea of keeping it aviation related so i made a flight simulator....of sorts. Heres a video of the project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0az4OHhQdKE&feature=youtu.be
On a side note this project will be displayed in the Top Designs exhibition at National Gallery of Victoria (NGV) from March 18th

That's a little about me, now back to the topic.
My systems engineering teacher has told me that he would buy me a $600 scope if i taught him how to use CAD quickly and efficiently. I think part of the reason is also that he is pleased that i have been the only student at my school to be in the Top Designs exhibition but that's besides the point.

TL:DR
What I ask is:

-What is the best scope for $600 and under? (it seems from my research that everyone recommends the DS1054Z although i want to know if i've missed any other good options)

-Are there any extra bits that i need as a beginner? (cables, plugs, etc.)

-Where is the best place to purchase? (I live in Melbourne)

Thanks in advance!

[EEVblog]

Great build! 

Yeah, ask for the DS1074Z and maybe a Saleae Logic as well?
Emona is the official Oz Rigol rep.
What meter do you have?
What soldering iron?
What power supply?

[jozer12]

Reply from the man himself, i might post here more often

Meter: Amprobe 15XP-B (got this from school for helping out with laser cutting on the open day)

Iron: Hakko fx-888d (took the recommendation from your videos, after a year i'm really happy with this investment)

Power supply: at the moment i dont really have one, usually i just fashion one out of an old atx PSU but im researching making a more permanent power supply on the cheap (flying isn't cheap so my hobbies will have to be cheap)

Oh and thanks by the way!

[Morgoroth]

if you need a power supply and have small pockets, I recommend to buy a medical rated power supply on ebay, bulletproof, cheap, and just need a box, a switch and 3 RCA connectors to play with it.

why medical rated ?, because you can short circuit it all you want and the power supply, and you, will be safe.

[jozer12]

Hmm ill have to dig around ebay and take a look. But that seems like a pretty good option

Thanks!

[Renegade]

Beginner here, so take it for what you will.

I looked for an oscilloscope for about 3 months, and looked and looked, and settled on a Rigol DS1054Z.

Just what I did spending my own money on the best value I could find.

Dave's video review on it really cemented the deal.

[tautech]

Hmm ill have to dig around ebay and take a look. But that seems like a pretty good option

Thanks!

Not wanting to discourage you from electronics, but I'd encourage you to think carefully about all monies you spend in its pursuit if you have plans to fly. My daughter is an airline pilot and it takes great dedication of time and funds while training to be successful in having airlines want to employ you. Good luck in your endeavors.

[jozer12]

Oh trust me i know, i've taken every cost saving measure there is jumping through twice as many hoops because of it

Although i'm not buying the scope wiht my own money, other wise i wouldn't buy it till i had at least my ppl, after then i can get fee help for the cpl

thanks for the warning though

[edy]

I'd take Dave's advice and pick up an old CRO on the cheap:



I did and after hunting for a few weeks managed to grab up not 1 but 2 'scopes for under $1 per Mhz. There's plenty of life left in those old CRO's and more than good enough to learn on for a beginner. Once you are more advanced or if you absolutely need the storage/capture functionality you can get digital.

So the question is, what are you planning to do with it? What types of circuits?

Tell your teacher the scope cost $600.... pocket the $550 and use for flying lessons, and spend only $50 on the scope. 

[jozer12]

Well at first i was actually asking my teacher if i could buy one of the schools old CRO's. It seemed they never really got used. But it seems because i have impressed him so much with my project and being the first student in the history of the school to get a project into this exhibition that he wants to give me a gift. Even as a memory it will be nice, when i'm older and if it still works after many years of good use it will be a nice reminder to what went on in my last years of school. Even if it stops working and is unrepairable ill still keep it.

Anyway he's ordered it yesterday so i'm going to probably receive it in about a week.

Thanks everyone!

[tggzzz]

Well at first i was actually asking my teacher if i could buy one of the schools old CRO's. It seemed they never really got used. But it seems because i have impressed him so much with my project and being the first student in the history of the school to get a project into this exhibition that he wants to give me a gift. Even as a memory it will be nice, when i'm older and if it still works after many years of good use it will be a nice reminder to what went on in my last years of school. Even if it stops working and is unrepairable ill still keep it.

Anyway he's ordered it yesterday so i'm going to probably receive it in about a week.

Thanks everyone!

Well done.

For any career whatsoever, it is helpful if you can demonstrate that you have done "more than the minimum necessary" to get a qualification, and that you know enjoy it.

At your age, one good way w.r.t. flying is to learn to fly gliders. It is much cheaper than powered flying, much more fun (especially winch launches)[1], you get a good appreciation for what keeps an aircraft flying and what it feels like before and after it "departs from controlled flight". Yes, you have to demonstrate low-level spin recovery before going solo. Some commercial pilots might still be alive if they had that experience. I believe there are two gliding clubs near Melbourne.

You might also check all the medical requirements (e.g. colour vision, heart conditions), just to ensure you aren't tripped up at a late stage. "Failing early" is much less painful than "failing late".

[1] apochryphal anecdote about glider pilots that transistion to powered flying. First they have to learn that they can fly straight and level, then they have to find a way to stay awake (and not fall asleep) because of the tedium of flying straint and level

[jozer12]

I know of some gliding clubs near me, and they would make me a better pilot, but right now all my money is going to flight training so i can get my commercial license as fast as i can. Then i may pickup gliding as a hobby haha.

With the medical side im getting a class 1 medical done really soon (highest form of aviation medical test in aus)
Although ive  never had a medical problem really but hey maybe theres something hiding in the dark that i dont know about.

And that part at the end gave me a good laugh

[tggzzz]

I know of some gliding clubs near me, and they would make me a better pilot, but right now all my money is going to flight training so i can get my commercial license as fast as i can. Then i may pickup gliding as a hobby haha.

I don't know where you are in your training, but consider that gliding is a very inexpensive way of learning precision flying.

By "precision" I mean good stick-and-rudder control, getting a feel for what the air is about to do to you, and keeping an accurate position 200ft behind another aircraft while it is moving up/down and sideways in turbulent air. Also dealing with "eventualities" such as engine failure, "strange" approaches"[1], aircraft appearing from nowhere and landing in front of you and behind and alongside you while you are doing a "forced" landing.

Once you have all that under your control (ho ho), you are in a good position to move onto the more expensive tuition about how to deal with bits that explode[2] and keep you cool[3].

[1] normal training includes the instructor putting you in a ridiculous position (e.g. over the landing point at 600ft/90kt flying in the wrong direction) and saying "you have control, get us down safely".

[2] my club had a tug that occasionally needed jump starting. In a powered club it would never have left the hanger, but in the gliding club the attitude was "it is only the engine, what's the problem?".

[3] when the big fan stops turning, powered pilots start sweating

[Muxr]

I would not get an old CRO as your first scope. I believe Dave has changed his opinion on this as well. Don't get me wrong, old CROs are amazing machines. But they are all 30+ years old now. This means they might require major refurbishing, and can die on you at any point. And repairing them without another oscilloscope can be difficult to do.

Besides DSOs offer a major advantage over CROs. The ability to capture non repeating events.

I second Dave's post in this thread. Get a DS1054z and a Saleae.

[boffin]

Things to buy with $600 total:

• A good Multimeter (Brymen BM235  Extech 330); in this price range they include a basic freq counter  too $125.
• A bench power supply; $125
• A good soldering iron (Hakko); $125
• A good USB Oscilloscope (Analog Discovery); $175
• A good pair of wire cutters for trimming leads (can't express how much diff this can make); $15
• Better quality test jumper leads

I found my Analog Discovery on a craigslist from an ex-student who had got it at the student price, and only paid C$100 for it.

[Muxr]

Analog Discovery is pretty limited. 100ms/s is only really usable under 10Mhz. The analog front end is pretty limited as well. The 14-bit ADC is good for some audio work but Analog Discovery is not really comparable to a real Oscilloscope like a CRO or a DS1054z. USB scopes in general have clunky software. I would not go for a USB scope over a real scope unless you really need compactness, or it's all you can afford. And even then, decent USB scopes tend to actually cost more.

[boffin]

Analog Discovery is pretty limited. 100ms/s is only really usable under 10Mhz. The analog front end is pretty limited as well. The 14-bit ADC is good for some audio work but Analog Discovery is not really comparable to a real Oscilloscope like a CRO or a DS1054z. USB scopes in general have clunky software. I would not go for a USB scope over a real scope unless you really need compactness, or it's all you can afford. And even then, decent USB scopes tend to actually cost more.

For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a better scope; which was my point.

How many beginners are looking at frequencies > 10MHz when they start?

[Muxr]

Analog Discovery is pretty limited. 100ms/s is only really usable under 10Mhz. The analog front end is pretty limited as well. The 14-bit ADC is good for some audio work but Analog Discovery is not really comparable to a real Oscilloscope like a CRO or a DS1054z. USB scopes in general have clunky software. I would not go for a USB scope over a real scope unless you really need compactness, or it's all you can afford. And even then, decent USB scopes tend to actually cost more.

For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a better scope; which was my point.

How many beginners are looking at frequencies > 10MHz when they start?

A lot of SPI communication either happens in the upper 10Mhz range or faster than that, up to 80Mhz + And SPI is fairly common. Fast op-amps may have nano second rise times. There are tons of reasons why 100ms/s is not adecvate today.

Rigol offers 10 times the capability for less than twice the cost. Not to mention it's a proper scope with a real analog front end and 4 channels. It's a far better bang per buck than Discovery, outside of some very limited use cases.

Discovery is great for a student who want to carry it with their laptop and be able to do some bare minimum measurements. But it is a no substitution for a full featured Oscilloscope in my opinion.

Of course you can buy more tools if you elect not to get an oscilloscope. Oscilloscope is the most expensive instrument in most hobbyist labs. Getting something that has 1/10th of the capability for half the cost is not a good bargain.

If you only need it to pass the class get a Discovery. But if you're serious about electronics get a real scope it doesn't cost that much more and it offers tons more capability.

[tggzzz]

How many beginners are looking at frequencies > 10MHz when they start?

Most. Many subtle "digital" problems are caused by bad signal integrity, and beginners usually don't appreciate the importance of clean signals.

Unless you are photon-counting or working with femtoamp currents, all your signals are analogue, even if the circuits interpret them as digital.

[boffin]

Analog Discovery is pretty limited. 100ms/s is only really usable under 10Mhz. The analog front end is pretty limited as well. The 14-bit ADC is good for some audio work but Analog Discovery is not really comparable to a real Oscilloscope like a CRO or a DS1054z. USB scopes in general have clunky software. I would not go for a USB scope over a real scope unless you really need compactness, or it's all you can afford. And even then, decent USB scopes tend to actually cost more.

For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a better scope; which was my point.

How many beginners are looking at frequencies > 10MHz when they start?

A lot of SPI communication either happens in the upper 10Mhz range or faster than that, up to 80Mhz + And SPI is fairly common. Fast op-amps may have nano second rise times. There are tons of reasons why 100ms/s is not adecvate today.

Rigol offers 10 times the capability for less than twice the cost. Not to mention it's a proper scope with a real analog front end and 4 channels. It's a far better bang per buck than Discovery, outside of some very limited use cases.

Discovery is great for a student who want to carry it with their laptop and be able to do some bare minimum measurements. But it is a no substitution for a full featured Oscilloscope in my opinion.

Of course you can buy more tools if you elect not to get an oscilloscope. Oscilloscope is the most expensive instrument in most hobbyist labs. Getting something that has 1/10th of the capability for half the cost is not a good bargain.

If you only need it to pass the class get a Discovery. But if you're serious about electronics get a real scope it doesn't cost that much more and it offers tons more capability.

You're missing my point.  If you have $600 to spend on a lab (from mostly scratch), spending all of it on one instrument is ridiculous. 

If you have $600 to spend on a scope, by all means get a DS1054Z, but that's a different question, and I stand by my original statement that:
For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a scope

[Muxr]

Analog Discovery is pretty limited. 100ms/s is only really usable under 10Mhz. The analog front end is pretty limited as well. The 14-bit ADC is good for some audio work but Analog Discovery is not really comparable to a real Oscilloscope like a CRO or a DS1054z. USB scopes in general have clunky software. I would not go for a USB scope over a real scope unless you really need compactness, or it's all you can afford. And even then, decent USB scopes tend to actually cost more.

For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a better scope; which was my point.

How many beginners are looking at frequencies > 10MHz when they start?

A lot of SPI communication either happens in the upper 10Mhz range or faster than that, up to 80Mhz + And SPI is fairly common. Fast op-amps may have nano second rise times. There are tons of reasons why 100ms/s is not adecvate today.

Rigol offers 10 times the capability for less than twice the cost. Not to mention it's a proper scope with a real analog front end and 4 channels. It's a far better bang per buck than Discovery, outside of some very limited use cases.

Discovery is great for a student who want to carry it with their laptop and be able to do some bare minimum measurements. But it is a no substitution for a full featured Oscilloscope in my opinion.

Of course you can buy more tools if you elect not to get an oscilloscope. Oscilloscope is the most expensive instrument in most hobbyist labs. Getting something that has 1/10th of the capability for half the cost is not a good bargain.

If you only need it to pass the class get a Discovery. But if you're serious about electronics get a real scope it doesn't cost that much more and it offers tons more capability.

You're missing my point.  If you have $600 to spend on a lab (from mostly scratch), spending all of it on one instrument is ridiculous. 

If you have $600 to spend on a scope, by all means get a DS1054Z, but that's a different question, and I stand by my original statement that:
For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a scope

I disagree. I don't think you should waste your money on a Discovery. If you're serious about electronics you will quickly realize it's not sufficient and buy a real scope anyways and that's just half the money of a real scope wasted.

DS1054z has a much better value for your money (10 times the capability for less than twice the cost). If you you're starting from scratch and can't afford a scope then don't buy a scope until you can afford it. Buy all the other gear and save your pennies until you can because DS1054z offer the best bang per buck on the market.

When you account for DS1054z's capability per dollar, Discovery should cost less than $40.

Buying the right gear from get go means you don't have to buy twice. Also buying Discovery is not relevant to OP since someone else is buying him a scope that's less than $600. So he can pick one scope for that money.

[jozer12]

Analog Discovery is pretty limited. 100ms/s is only really usable under 10Mhz. The analog front end is pretty limited as well. The 14-bit ADC is good for some audio work but Analog Discovery is not really comparable to a real Oscilloscope like a CRO or a DS1054z. USB scopes in general have clunky software. I would not go for a USB scope over a real scope unless you really need compactness, or it's all you can afford. And even then, decent USB scopes tend to actually cost more.

For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a better scope; which was my point.

How many beginners are looking at frequencies > 10MHz when they start?

A lot of SPI communication either happens in the upper 10Mhz range or faster than that, up to 80Mhz + And SPI is fairly common. Fast op-amps may have nano second rise times. There are tons of reasons why 100ms/s is not adecvate today.

Rigol offers 10 times the capability for less than twice the cost. Not to mention it's a proper scope with a real analog front end and 4 channels. It's a far better bang per buck than Discovery, outside of some very limited use cases.

Discovery is great for a student who want to carry it with their laptop and be able to do some bare minimum measurements. But it is a no substitution for a full featured Oscilloscope in my opinion.

Of course you can buy more tools if you elect not to get an oscilloscope. Oscilloscope is the most expensive instrument in most hobbyist labs. Getting something that has 1/10th of the capability for half the cost is not a good bargain.

If you only need it to pass the class get a Discovery. But if you're serious about electronics get a real scope it doesn't cost that much more and it offers tons more capability.

You're missing my point.  If you have $600 to spend on a lab (from mostly scratch), spending all of it on one instrument is ridiculous. 

If you have $600 to spend on a scope, by all means get a DS1054Z, but that's a different question, and I stand by my original statement that:
For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a scope

Hi, i think you may have misread this thread.
My teacher wanted to buy me a scope, he gave me a budget of $600.
I've already got what i think is a pretty decent entry level meter (Amprobe 15XP-B) and the Hakko Fx-888D.
The only thing i'm missing is a scope and a power supply.
Although for now i atx power supplies seem to be working for me in most cases, i would however want to get a variable power supply down the track. Right now ive ordered a few cheap components from ebay like a DC-DC buck regulator and some voltage displays. It only set me back about $10 so even if its useless i havent lost much.
And also the scope is now on its way.

[jozer12]

I know of some gliding clubs near me, and they would make me a better pilot, but right now all my money is going to flight training so i can get my commercial license as fast as i can. Then i may pickup gliding as a hobby haha.

I don't know where you are in your training, but consider that gliding is a very inexpensive way of learning precision flying.

By "precision" I mean good stick-and-rudder control, getting a feel for what the air is about to do to you, and keeping an accurate position 200ft behind another aircraft while it is moving up/down and sideways in turbulent air. Also dealing with "eventualities" such as engine failure, "strange" approaches"[1], aircraft appearing from nowhere and landing in front of you and behind and alongside you while you are doing a "forced" landing.

Once you have all that under your control (ho ho), you are in a good position to move onto the more expensive tuition about how to deal with bits that explode[2] and keep you cool[3].

[1] normal training includes the instructor putting you in a ridiculous position (e.g. over the landing point at 600ft/90kt flying in the wrong direction) and saying "you have control, get us down safely".

[2] my club had a tug that occasionally needed jump starting. In a powered club it would never have left the hanger, but in the gliding club the attitude was "it is only the engine, what's the problem?".

[3] when the big fan stops turning, powered pilots start sweating

I get what  you're saying and i appreciate your recommendations, but gliding will not get me any closer to flying commercially, although it would make me a better pilot. Some time in the future i would like to pick up gliding but as of now all my money is going to powered flight.
The Gimbli Glider crash was my inspiration to do gliding later on

[NivagSwerdna]

I tinkered with electronics in the digital domain for decades without a scope... it was OK but hard so having a decent scope adds wondrous possibilities. 

When I had the spare $ I bought a Rigol and haven't looked back.  IMHO you want a modern scope not something crusty from ebay, saving a few $ doesn't make sense particularly when you are starting out, you need something where you are not fighting the technology.

Love my Rigol
 

[Muxr]

Analog Discovery is pretty limited. 100ms/s is only really usable under 10Mhz. The analog front end is pretty limited as well. The 14-bit ADC is good for some audio work but Analog Discovery is not really comparable to a real Oscilloscope like a CRO or a DS1054z. USB scopes in general have clunky software. I would not go for a USB scope over a real scope unless you really need compactness, or it's all you can afford. And even then, decent USB scopes tend to actually cost more.

For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a better scope; which was my point.

How many beginners are looking at frequencies > 10MHz when they start?

A lot of SPI communication either happens in the upper 10Mhz range or faster than that, up to 80Mhz + And SPI is fairly common. Fast op-amps may have nano second rise times. There are tons of reasons why 100ms/s is not adecvate today.

Rigol offers 10 times the capability for less than twice the cost. Not to mention it's a proper scope with a real analog front end and 4 channels. It's a far better bang per buck than Discovery, outside of some very limited use cases.

Discovery is great for a student who want to carry it with their laptop and be able to do some bare minimum measurements. But it is a no substitution for a full featured Oscilloscope in my opinion.

Of course you can buy more tools if you elect not to get an oscilloscope. Oscilloscope is the most expensive instrument in most hobbyist labs. Getting something that has 1/10th of the capability for half the cost is not a good bargain.

If you only need it to pass the class get a Discovery. But if you're serious about electronics get a real scope it doesn't cost that much more and it offers tons more capability.

You're missing my point.  If you have $600 to spend on a lab (from mostly scratch), spending all of it on one instrument is ridiculous. 

If you have $600 to spend on a scope, by all means get a DS1054Z, but that's a different question, and I stand by my original statement that:
For a beginner, (USB Scope + 1-2 * Multimeter + Good Soldering Iron + Bench PSU)  is better than just a scope

Hi, i think you may have misread this thread.
My teacher wanted to buy me a scope, he gave me a budget of $600.
I've already got what i think is a pretty decent entry level meter (Amprobe 15XP-B) and the Hakko Fx-888D.
The only thing i'm missing is a scope and a power supply.
Although for now i atx power supplies seem to be working for me in most cases, i would however want to get a variable power supply down the track. Right now ive ordered a few cheap components from ebay like a DC-DC buck regulator and some voltage displays. It only set me back about $10 so even if its useless i havent lost much.
And also the scope is now on its way.

For power supplies depending on your budget, I've had great luck on used (ebay) HP E3611As. They are no frills linear power supplies. Dead silent, fairly compact and offer current limiting (which is really useful in prototyping by saving you from frying your circuits). You can usually find them around $100. And due to their linear nature the power they provide is really clean.

Also at some point you'll probably want a second multimeter, but no rush on that.