Selling (or not) own project inside a company

[mcdesca]

Dear everybody,

it has just happened to me (a couple of times) that the company I am working for, has a particular electronic design need. So asks the team to start working on it, and then I realise I have a design of my own (done at home, does not clash with any non-compete agreement) that matches the specs.

Normally they are a 1-2 years projects I did on my spare time. I guess you already know how that works: the pcb arrives and then one spends a week sleeping less than 5 hours trying to get the board populated and the firmware running. Then a small pause to rethink the next iteration.

The thing is, I could save a lot of time to the company, but I do not think I should give it for free. Giving my knowledge and experience in exchange for money is what was agreed. I have seen the bills from electronic designs they pay for and it exceeds my annual salary.

However, the company has a great working atmosphere and gives us plenty of resources (I even come on weekends to use the soldering station on my own projects) and I do not know if such a decision could be made in an "elegant" way.

Of course I can make it open source, although I did not thought it would make much sense, giving the vast amount of people already publishing similar projects.

Sorry if I am being a bit off-topic. I kindly ask you to share your experience and thoughts.


Thanks a lot,

[EEVblog]

The thing is, I could save a lot of time to the company, but I do not think I should give it for free. Giving my knowledge and experience in exchange for money is what was agreed. I have seen the bills from electronic designs they pay for and it exceeds my annual salary.

Not uncommon for companies to buy personal employee projects. Certainly don't give it away for free, tell them how long you have been working on it. They will also have a "internal rate" for employee time that is much higher that the employee's salary (company overhead etc), so that's not a ball park figure to use.

Moreover, the company has a great working atmosphere and gives us plenty of resources (I even come on weekends to use the soldering station on my own projects) and I do not know if such a decision could be made in an "elegant" way.

Don't mention that, they will only try an talk you down.

[rstofer]

You already owe the company your knowledge and skill - that's what they are paying you for.  You don't have to give them your project but your knowledge should move the company project along a lot faster.

Something along the lines of "I played with something like this and here's what I came up with".

At many companies in the US, you sign away your patent rights even on things you develop completely outside the company.  If the project gets patented, the company owns the patent even if the device has absolutely no relationship to the company's line of work.  I guess they figure that since you spend at least 1/4 of your life at the company, you must have been thinking about it on their time.

[mcdesca]

Thanks for the replies.

You already owe the company your knowledge and skill - that's what they are paying you for.  You don't have to give them your project but your knowledge should move the company project along a lot faster.

Well they are paying for part of my skill. I was hired for firmware development but turns out that my ARM designs fit well. And it is not that it just helps, but they have already used a couple of them, carbon copied. The case now is a two year project with many hours of research (even before I started working for the company).

At many companies in the US, you sign away your patent rights even on things you develop completely outside the company.  If the project gets patented, the company owns the patent even if the device has absolutely no relationship to the company's line of work.  I guess they figure that since you spend at least 1/4 of your life at the company, you must have been thinking about it on their time.

In Europe they have to pay your enough to survive the time the non-compete applies after leaving the job, otherwise the non-compete clause is not valid.

I have proof that I started the project long ago, so they have not been my inspiration, it is just what I do for earning a living.

[Chris Mr]

Having been there...


The advice from my Father was:

You will not make any money out of the work you have done other than the wages you are paid.

If you could, you already would have.

You aren't even slightly opportunistic - you are asking other people what they think 

If you believe a day like a lion is better than a lifetime like a lamb then have your day - be the entrepreneur the company is



My Father was right and the shock made me stop and think.

Seriously, if you can negotiate a payment, and everyone is still on good terms, you should leave the company and start on your own as a negotiator working for world peace.

[luxfx]

Moreover, the company has a great working atmosphere and gives us plenty of resources (I even come on weekends to use the soldering station on my own projects) and I do not know if such a decision could be made in an "elegant" way.

Don't mention that, they will only try an talk you down.

Make sure your contract doesn't specify that projects made with company owned tools are therefore owned by the company. Not that it's necessarily defensible in court, and it doesn't sound like the project you're referring to is the same one you use their soldering station on, but the company can give you problems over that.

At the last place I worked at with that clause, a friend of mine left to start his own mobile app company. Turns out his first game was developed partially with company resources (at home, but using a company laptop and software license for a portion of it I believe) and they wound up with an agreement where they split profit 50/50. Took my friend two years to get of that arrangement.

[rstofer]

Well they are paying for part of my skill. I was hired for firmware development but turns out that my ARM designs fit well. And it is not that it just helps, but they have already used a couple of them, carbon copied. The case now is a two year project with many hours of research (even before I started working for the company).

In my view, they are paying for ALL of your skill and knowledge.  You don't have to give them your project but you can hardly shrug and say "Duh, I don't know anything about this stuff!".

It isn't a matter of prior art, nobody is suggesting you give them your project but you should work in their interest to expedite the project.  Who knows, you might get a raise.  Managers don't forget their top contributors.

If you don't want to assist your employer by expediting the project, fine.  But don't be surprised if you have to find another employer.  If I found out you were delivering to my company less than your best effort, you would be down the road.  Programmers are a dime a dozen, I can have your replacement on board by lunch time.

[yashrk]

@mcdesca Your company seems somewhere I would like to work too. If I was in your place I would ask them for a fair amount of money. If you get an offer which is less then your expectation try to push them ones by reminding them how much they are going to save by buying your project. If they still are not close to your offer then ask them to give you pay raise with the amount they proposed, (people normally tend to agree to pay more in near future and in small amounts then giving huge amount up front) make sure you mention by increasing my pay you are not only getting my project but also make me less likely to leave the company in near future, which is a win-win situation for both of us. Certainly you can phrase the sentences in a better way, but I guess you get the point.
And if this fails/ they give you good one-time cash offer then make sure you make this transaction as public as possible so everyone in the office know how much valuable you are. 
And Congrats.

[gildasd]

It depends on the company...
In my experience I've had these extremes:

From,
"We own you, your every thought and those of your ancestors (boss puts torch lamp under chin) BWAHAHAHA, and your first born? Ours also..."

To,
"We have a program for that, we can either buy it outright for a lump sum or negotiate exclusive use for this percentage blablabla..."

It really depends.

[Tin Duc Vo]

Let me know how it goes, Gildasd. Honestly, I think that agreeing to sell give rights to all ideas produced while working at a company like this is pushing it. If the the employee, does the work, is it really fair to assume that they are using company time to develop ideas like this?

[luxfx]

Managers don't forget their top contributors.

This is true. In my experience my immediate managers have always been very appreciative and supportive. However they're not the ones that sign the checks. They can have your back in a performance review but in every job I've ever had that's meant exactly zero when it comes to the paycheck.

[Brutte]

If the company already has such policy, with clear rules that state how to manage and calculate the benefits from cooperation (and division of the profit), with some published success stories, then please propose your idea officially. If that is this type of the company then then ask for the names of the employees that already took this path, talk to them.

BUT: if the company does not already have such policy, or the policy is not clear or its history, experiences, names are classified then...
As you might guess, it is the management level that is responsible for creating this and other policies for improved financial results. The management level is also responsible for the lost profits that come from not taking adequate actions, for example for not providing named policy or from not executing the policy for the benefit of the company. So, in such case you are trying to do a formal proof of the poor management of your company.

Never, ever, ever try to challenge the competence of the supreme.

[gildasd]

Let me know how it goes, Gildasd. Honestly, I think that agreeing to sell give rights to all ideas produced while working at a company like this is pushing it. If the the employee, does the work, is it really fair to assume that they are using company time to develop ideas like this?

It obviously can't be something done on company time/equipment...
If your billable goes down 30% and you suddenly have a gizmo ready, it's a bit obvious 
The company in the second case was quite special, a lot of people were starting spinoffs and most were bringing back business and/or services.
For that, you need a smart boss that understands that happy motivated employees tend to kick for more arse than downtrodden ones.
I assume that the boss having himself bootstrapped his company while stuck in a dead end job had a lot to explain his attitude.
- A guy started a T-Shirt and sticker gig because he got mad at the prices we had to pay for shoddy quality.
- Another start a party thing because he liked parties, was very good at organising them and suddenly realised that he could get paid for it (and did all our events).
- Someone internally outsourced procurement of computer hardware, because he could do win money while saving the company 30 to 50% in costs.
- I was doing GPS data analysis...


It also depends on countries, as an example, in France it's very very hard and very very taxed to start something if you have full time employment.
So you are basically obliged to start off with no legal existence - and this is an idiotic situation.
In Belgium, it absurdly easy to do (and I have done it and I will be doing it again probably starting in September).

[seatrix]

You can sell it to your company in the name of your friend

[Brumby]

Managers don't forget their top contributors.

This is true. In my experience my immediate managers have always been very appreciative and supportive. However they're not the ones that sign the checks. They can have your back in a performance review but in every job I've ever had that's meant exactly zero when it comes to the paycheck.

A big +1.

[mcdesca]

Dear everybody,

Sorry for the late reply, but bureaucracy goes slow at the company.

We have agreed to bill them just the components and pcb's, no hours. We have agreed as well, that the design is published as open hardware (and GPL for the firmware).

Thanks a lot for your hints/experiences.


Best,