EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: SnakeBite on August 06, 2010, 12:21:41 am
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Hello,
i want to buy a new professional soldering station and i cannot decide between the Metcal MX-500 and the PACE MBT 250. they both great MADE IN USA soldering stations, they are both support SMD hot tweezer and Desoldering gun ect (for future upgrade) and they are both very high quality units.
the main difference between them is that the METCAL uses automatic temperature controll tip that raise or lower the temperature by the change of resistance of the part you want to solder (very impressive) meaning that you don't need to change the temp setting every time you want to solder different part and also you never need to calibrate the soldering station BUT the downside of this method is that the temp remains constant by the resistance of the tip material (i mean the tip temp do change but it remains between a temp range) that's why they have 3 tip models: small , standard and large for difference application.
and the PACE uses regular digital LCD based temperature controll that you can change manualy the temperature.
lets put the price aside for a minute , which method is beter for electronics application
thanks
Ido
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Don't touch any soldering system that is not fully user temperature variable.
If you have to change the tip to change temperature, avoid.
Great for production use, hopeless for general lab/electronics use.
Dave.
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I quite like my metcal. I have a PS200 with a few different tips. Its true that they operate at one temp but its rare that I need to change temp. 600 Degrees is plenty for most SMT and through hole work. Even when I've use variable supplies I pretty much just set it and forget it. The metcal hand pieces are nice and light and they have a good variety of tips. There's a good market on ebay for old tips. You just need to make sure you are buying a tip that is still good. The metcal tips are more expensive. Around 15$ vs 10$ for pace. And you might need special tips if you need a higher temp for some reason.
I used metcal most of the time when I worked in the industry. And everyone else did as well. Sometimes we would drag out a beat up variable Weller if we needed a super low temp. I think a lot of this is going to just devolve into personal preference though. Technique is going to have a big effect on how well you are soldering as well.
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I've got a Pace ST25 and a Hakko 936
Both are excellent general purpose lab irons.
Metcal make great quality production irons, but I find them inflexible for lab use. I've had one of those in my lab too, but sold it in favor of two variable temp irons.
Dave.
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Don't touch any soldering system that is not fully user temperature variable.
If you have to change the tip to change temperature, avoid.
Great for production use, hopeless for general lab/electronics use
Sorry Dave but I have to violently disagree here. 'Hopeless' is just bollocks.
As long as the iron has enough power and good thermal coupling to maintain a constant temp with varying loads without overshoot there is really no need for temperature adjustment.
The Metcal STSSS/MX systems are without doubt the best iron you can buy. I have no experience of their lower-end irons.
I do everything from 0.5mm QFNs and TQFPs to soldering M4 screw terminals into heavy-copper boards to carry 30 amps with the same tip temperature - in about 20 years of owning Metcals in a development environment I've never felt any need to have a temperature adjustment.
Can you explain exactly why you think you need temperature adjustment on a good iron? Except maybe for melting plastic.
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Which handpiece do you use with the pace? The PS80/90 or TD-100?
David
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i don't have this unit yet. but i know this model uses the PS-90.
the TD-100 is for more small factor soldering station that they offer (in the size of hakko 936).
Ido
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Don't touch any soldering system that is not fully user temperature variable.
If you have to change the tip to change temperature, avoid.
Great for production use, hopeless for general lab/electronics use
Sorry Dave but I have to violently disagree here. 'Hopeless' is just bollocks.
As long as the iron has enough power and good thermal coupling to maintain a constant temp with varying loads without overshoot there is really no need for temperature adjustment.
The Metcal STSSS/MX systems are without doubt the best iron you can buy. I have no experience of their lower-end irons.
I do everything from 0.5mm QFNs and TQFPs to soldering M4 screw terminals into heavy-copper boards to carry 30 amps with the same tip temperature - in about 20 years of owning Metcals in a development environment I've never felt any need to have a temperature adjustment.
Can you explain exactly why you think you need temperature adjustment on a good iron? Except maybe for melting plastic.
Same experience here. Have used the famous WTCP-S for something like more than 20 years I have not needed much to adjust the temperature. Recently got a Metcal SP-200 to complement the WTCP-S. Having a properly sized tip for the job is much more important than compensating wrong size tip by adjusting the temperature higher. Fixed temperature tip has been absolutely no issue for me.
At work we have both types, with temperature adjust and without. The only difference between those seems to be that people just turn the temperature to the maximum if there is something what seems to need more heat and then you'll find the tip FUBAR in no time as they usually don't turn it down when they are finished.
Regards,
Janne
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I used to use a Pace rework station (ST75 I think) in my last job. It was a good tool but was only a single channel so I had to keep swapping over the PS-90 with the SX-80 desoldering pump/iron every time I was repairing anything. Another problem with pace is you can only buy bits in packs of 5. Great if you use 1 size bit all the time but not if you need many different sizes (for SMT one minute and then removing metal sheilding the next etc) and on a limited budget. I've been looking at Metcal SP-200 and one complaint is that they do not have enough power for larger jobs. Bits seem quite hard to find now that the SP-200 is discontinued. Bits can be had on Ebay I suppose but you cant always find what you want quickly and this can delay a job. The MX-500 is way too expensive for me. Now that Metcal is owned by OKI the prices seem to have come down and I'm looking at the OKI Metcal PS-900 (£139 +vat @ Farnell). I'm still not convinced about the merits of Smartheat vs conventional temperature control irons yet. The hakko 936 is also discontinued and replaced with a new funky model that cant be stacked. Suppose I'll have to keep looking.
David.
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I used to use a Pace rework station (ST75 I think) in my last job. It was a good tool but was only a single channel so I had to keep swapping over the PS-90 with the SX-80 desoldering pump/iron every time I was repairing anything. Another problem with pace is you can only buy bits in packs of 5. Great if you use 1 size bit all the time but not if you need many different sizes (for SMT one minute and then removing metal sheilding the next etc) and on a limited budget. I've been looking at Metcal SP-200 and one complaint is that they do not have enough power for larger jobs. Bits seem quite hard to find now that the SP-200 is discontinued. Bits can be had on Ebay I suppose but you cant always find what you want quickly and this can delay a job. The MX-500 is way too expensive for me. Now that Metcal is owned by OKI the prices seem to have come down and I'm looking at the OKI Metcal PS-900 (£139 +vat @ Farnell). I'm still not convinced about the merits of Smartheat vs conventional temperature control irons yet. The hakko 936 is also discontinued and replaced with a new funky model that cant be stacked. Suppose I'll have to keep looking.
David.
the PACE MBT 250 has 3 channels on it to attach soldering and desoldering attachments so it's better from this point of view.
so i think that if you want a quality station buy this unit.
Ido
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The MX-500 is way too expensive for me. .... I'm looking at the OKI Metcal PS-900 (£139 +vat @ Farnell).
I've often seen Metcal STSS-002's on Ebay for less than £50 - the STSS is functionally the same as the MX500, just does't have the second switchable output. By the time you've picked up a handpice (even new) you'll probably still have change out of 139 and have a more powerful iron.
e.g. this one (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Metcal-STSS-PS2V02-Soldering-system-/270616932962?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item3f0206b262)
Also check other UK Metcal dealers for new prices - Conro (http://www.conro.com/e_store.html)often offer good bundled deals with tips etc.
Other dealers : solderconnection (https://www.solderconnection.com/)
Something else I just stumbled on - looks like the Chinese are now doing knock-off Metcals (http://www.thermaltronics.com/) and tips (http://www.thermaltronics.com/tipcartridge.php). They even have a UK dealer (http://www.ams-electronics.co.uk/product_details.asp?CategoryID=9&SubCategoryID=11&SubSubCategoryID=23)
Looks like now the MX5000 is out, MX-500's have got quite a lot cheaper - AMS list a MX500 system at 289
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Ive seen a Metcal STSS-002 on ebay but there are no details on what power output it has or which bits (that are still available) are still compatible with it. I've looked on the Metcal and OKI sites and done the usual google search but have only found discussions on other forums, no specs. Can anyone help?
Thanks.
David.
London,UK
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STSS-002 is for practical purposes the same as MX500 - the only differences are :
STSS has squarer case, MX has a curved front.
STSS has one output on the rear. MX has 2 switchable sockets on the front - only one outputs power at a time. Only useful if you use 2 irons, or an iron and desoldering gun (Metcal's desolder gun is awexome BTW, but needs compressed air).
MX has optional idle timeout to switch off if iron not used for a while (Enabled via a well hidden grubscrew).
I just checked my old STSS against an MX500, and output power is the same, and more than enough for any task - both will get a small tip from cold to working temperature in about 7 seconds.
Both use the same handpieces and tips - STTC and SMTC series.
The new MX5000 comes with a slightly smaller handpiece but is still compatible.
The only other difference is the workstands that come with later models have a magnet to de-power the tip when idling, to extend tip life. This is useful for small tips, but can be a PITA on larger ones due to the warmup time - 10-15 seconds is a long time to wait for an iron to warm up if you're used to using a Metcals!
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Ok,I'm warming to the Metcal but where do you buy your bits (when you need them). I cant imagine they're available from Farnell or RS.
How is Metcal for technical support and supplying of spares for the older models? Do you have any experience of this?
Thanks.
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Metcal tips are available from Farnell,RS, Digikey, but I can't remember the last time I bought them there - most of my 100-odd collection of tips has come from ebay over the years, mostly from the USA site.
Whenever I see any types come up which I use regularly, or look useful, I buy a few for stock, and now probably have nearly a lifetime's supply. In practice the only ones I find have a limited lifetime are the super-fine needle point STTC145's, and that's usually due to me pranging them and bending the end - I maybe get through two a year. Bigger tips typically last years of daily use. Metcal tip plating lasts way better than any other iron I've used - this is probably in part due to not needing to crank up the temperature when doing heavier stuff.
Keep an eye open for the long blade types -SMTC160/161 - these are expensive new, but brilliant for flowing-on and braiding-off whole sides of SOICs, TSOPs and QFPs in one go. You also want the monste-chunky STTC-117 for those really meaty tasks like soldering TO220 tabs to groundplanes.
One caution - avoid that bullshit leadfree solder - this does eat tips very noticeably faster.
Make sure any bigger tips you get are -1xx temperature types, especially if you insist on using leadfree. There are some nice 'P' series tip for fine leadfree work, which have thicker thermal paths to the small tip.
-0xx series are OK for leaded solder at smaller sizes but disappointing in a bigger tip.
Do not under any circumstances buy -5xx tips, however cheap, as these are only useful for speciality low-temp solders and melting plastic.
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i buy my metcal tips off ebay, there are usually job lots on there, you end up with a few odd ones now and again.
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Good iron still needs temp adjustment for me. I need to change the temp when I need to solder/desolder something with leadfree (everything mass produced is Pb free in EU and Pb free needs higher temps) and when desoldering using wick - the wick itself is like a radiator and probably makes the termal connection between joint and tip weaker, ramping up the temp gives great results.
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Good iron still needs temp adjustment for me. I need to change the temp when I need to solder/desolder something with leadfree (everything mass produced is Pb free in EU and Pb free needs higher temps) and when desoldering using wick - the wick itself is like a radiator and probably makes the termal connection between joint and tip weaker, ramping up the temp gives great results.
If you'd used a Metcal you'd realsie that it is NOT necessary to increase temperature for things like wick. Lead-free just means you use the right temp tip to start with, which is also fine for leaded work.
I just saw this post on the Piclist from Dwayne Reid which explains things nicely :
Its actually very hard for someone who has not used a Metcal
soldering station to understand that bumping soldering temperature is
NOT necessary when soldering large-mass joints. Really hard.
I'll give you an example, though. This was with one of the early
Metcal stations - maybe a RFG-30 or PS2E - I don't recall. This blew
away the guys in my shop when I showed it to them for the first time.
Take an ordinary copper penny (a real penny - one that can be
soldered). Place it in the middle of a piece of single-sided or
double-sided PCB material that has been cleaned enough to be soldered
- perhaps 6" square.
Take the smallest Metcal tip that you have. I think that for me, it
was either a sttc-138 or a sttc-125. The '125 has a very tiny tip,
suitable for SMT work.
Add flux all around the penny, touch the soldering tip to the edge of
the penny and add a bit of solder to promote thermal
conductivity. Wait, then start adding solder so that the entire
penny is soldered to the PCB material. Total time - about 1 minute.
Observe that the tip temperature does NOT go above the set-point of 700F.
Now go and solder a SMT device to a PCB without damaging it.
None of the other soldering stations that we have (had) here could
solder that penny to the PCB material unless we installed a really
big tip - maybe even having to go to an 800F tip in the case of the
Weller station.
Like I said - its REALLY hard for someone who hasn't used that type
of soldering station to understand the difference.
dwayne
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I got a PS-900 a while back, so it's the lower frequency (470Khz) than the more expensive ones (13Mhz?). This means that the hand piece and tips aren't quite as delicate, but it still uses the same smart heat tips. Farnell sometimes put them on offer.
I've never felt the need to have temperature adjustment. It's fine from the smallest to largest electronic parts. I find it's very on/off when you push it too hard, there is a point where it simply cannot put enough heat into the part.
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Lead-free just means you use the right temp tip to start with, which is also fine for leaded work.
I can assure you it's not. Pb free needs higher temps. If you will try to solder standard leaded solder with that kind of temp the flux will evaporate instantly (making nice shooting smoke trails in the air ;D ) and leave you with an overheated grey joint and the lead will stick to the tip making a sharp point instead of a nice shiny drop. It's also important if you use something like Chipquik to desolder SMD parts (you will probably need to lower your tip temperature especially if you are using tip for Pb free) http://www.chipquikinc.com/newsletters/cq_new_june_2004.htm (http://www.chipquikinc.com/newsletters/cq_new_june_2004.htm)
But it's not really that important for most of us - it's probably more important for guys that make some repairs, most of us doesn't need to switch Pb/Pb free that often.
The only "magic" is that irons that you are talking about have tip that controls the temp itself. It's small so it reacts quickly on even small temp changes. It's because it has small temp capacity compared to irons with bigger tips and the tip itself is switching the heater circuit (it's magnetic properties change with temperature). That kind of irons have better temp stabilisation than regulated ones.
Comparing irons working in different technologies is tricky. I was wrong when saying you have to ramp up the temp to use wick - if your iron has a quick temp regulation you don't have too, it will detect that and pump more heat. My iron has bigger tips - when the tip gets cooler the end is still hot because the change in temp needs time to propagate thru the whole tip to the temp sensor. I compensate for this ramping up the temp before using wick or soldering anything with big temp capacity.
But now tere are soldering stations with temp adjustment that have really small tips. They should work just as good as the "tip regulated" stations - reaction on temp change of the tip will be also very quick but with added bonus of adjusting the temp for Pb/Pb free and Wood alloy (Chipquik). The tips should also be cheaper - they are not so complicated to make.
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If you do proper Pb-free soldering, then you can never use the same tip (or desoldering braid) for anything with leaded solder. Even tiny residue of Pb will result a lead contaminated joints, thus no longer Pb-free, and the tip is "poisoned" permanently. So much for "one tip" tactics...
Regards,
Janne
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Don't touch any soldering system that is not fully user temperature variable.
If you have to change the tip to change temperature, avoid.
Great for production use, hopeless for general lab/electronics use
Sorry Dave but I have to violently disagree here. 'Hopeless' is just bollocks.
Ok, poor choice of words.
They are less flexible and more inconvenient.
As long as the iron has enough power and good thermal coupling to maintain a constant temp with varying loads without overshoot there is really no need for temperature adjustment.
Funny how they make all those different temperature tips then isn't it?
The Metcal STSSS/MX systems are without doubt the best iron you can buy. I have no experience of their lower-end irons.
Fixed temp, yes, one of the best irons you can buy.
I do everything from 0.5mm QFNs and TQFPs to soldering M4 screw terminals into heavy-copper boards to carry 30 amps with the same tip temperature - in about 20 years of owning Metcals in a development environment I've never felt any need to have a temperature adjustment.
That's perhaps because you are used to using a fixed temp iron.
I've used fixed temp irons too, and you get used to them, just like you do to any iron with different technology, tip types and thermal capacities etc.
But when you have a good variable temp iron you find it's just more versatile and generally don't want to go back to a fixed temp iron after using one for while.
As always, YMMV.
Can you explain exactly why you think you need temperature adjustment on a good iron? Except maybe for melting plastic.
There are plenty of reasons, which is why they make different temp fixed iron tips. Metcal have anywhere from 500F to 800F tips. Why do you think typical tip temperatures are well above the usual melting point of solder?
Which temp tip do you use, and why?
There are all sorts of theory like being able to deliver heat quicker without applying as much pressure for shorter periods, different solder and flux material types, thermal capacities of the parts etc etc.
So a variable temp iron is a more versatile and convenient tool, simple as that.
If you don't have different temp tips in your soldering kit then I'd have to say you are not properly equipped. Yes, you can "make do" with one temp, but it's not ideal for all purposes.
Dave.
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There are plenty of reasons, which is why they make different temp fixed iron tips. Metcal have anywhere from 500F to 800F tips. Why do you think typical tip temperatures are well above the usual melting point of solder?
Which temp tip do you use, and why?
There are all sorts of theory like being able to deliver heat quicker without applying as much pressure for shorter periods, different solder and flux material types, thermal capacities of the parts etc etc.
So a variable temp iron is a more versatile and convenient tool, simple as that.
If you don't have different temp tips in your soldering kit then I'd have to say you are not properly equipped. Yes, you can "make do" with one temp, but it's not ideal for all purposes.
Dave.
The variation in metcal tip temp is mostly for niche uses. If you have a particular process then you only need one line of tips for the most part. The metcal tip selection doc for my particular model suggests 500 degree tips for heat sensitive parts and no-clean fluxes, 600 degrees for everything else by default and 700 degree tips for bus bar. I almost always use 600 degree tips though. I have a small 500 if I really need it. I frequently turn my metcal on and off so I like the instant heating features.
I think this is turning into an Apple vs PC argument now. Either one will get you where you want to go.
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I only use the -1xx (700 deg.F tips), and a few -0xx (600 deg) which were bought only because they were cheap on ebay. Metcal make 4 tip temps, but the highest and lowest are for wacky flavours of solder, and the middle two are basically leaded/leadfree.
IMO the ultra tight coupling of the Metcal, combined with the ergonomics of having a very short (cool) handle-to-tip distance and 5-10 second warmup time more than makes up for any lack of 'flexibility', although I've still to see a concrete example of where you'd need it.
Out of curiosity Dave, was the Metcal you used the MX series or the lower-end 470KHz family?
Obviously there is a big personal preference factor, however you're the first person I've ever heard of that has owned a Metcal and decided they didn't like it..
For those who have only used conventional irons, this is something that really needs to be experienced - Dwayne's post sums it up very well.
In the old Pre-OKI days they had a very simple sales technique - they lent people systems for a week. Only about 5% of users didn't buy, and they were probably mostly down to cost.
If you do proper Pb-free soldering, then you can never use the same tip (or desoldering braid) for anything with leaded solder. Even tiny residue of Pb will result a lead contaminated joints, thus no longer Pb-free, and the tip is "poisoned" permanently. So much for "one tip" tactics...
So what? The only reason for using leadfree is misguided bullshit legislation. If you should happen to have some traces of lead in the occasional leadfree joint, it isn't going to poison anyone and who is ever going to find out? It's totally irrelevant in a development environment.
If you're really paranoid, a couple of wipes and re-tins will reduce the lead content in any joint to below the 0.1% legal limit.
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If you do proper Pb-free soldering, then you can never use the same tip (or desoldering braid) for anything with leaded solder. Even tiny residue of Pb will result a lead contaminated joints, thus no longer Pb-free, and the tip is "poisoned" permanently. So much for "one tip" tactics...
Regards,
Janne
I actually don't care about lead contamination at all. It is only important for the manufacturer not for me. I care only about higher temp for the Pb free stuff to melt.
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The variation in metcal tip temp is mostly for niche uses. If you have a particular process then you only need one line of tips for the most part. The metcal tip selection doc for my particular model suggests 500 degree tips for heat sensitive parts and no-clean fluxes
And stuff like that turns up all the time in general lab work.
, 600 degrees for everything else by default and 700 degree tips for bus bar. I almost always use 600 degree tips though. I have a small 500 if I really need it. I frequently turn my metcal on and off so I like the instant heating features.
I think this is turning into an Apple vs PC argument now. Either one will get you where you want to go.
Sure, but the point is even with fixed temp irons you have to make a choice on your tip temp. So for any fixed temp iron fan boys to argue that variable temp irons aren't advantageous is really quite ironic (pun intended!).
A good variable temp iron can be fixed temp too, just don't touch the knob. But you get the flexibility of tweaking it when needed, that can't be viewed as anything but an advantage.
Fixed temp irons IMO only have an advantage when it comes to production work when you don't want the operators dicking with the temp.
So to answer the OP's question, get the variable temp iron.
Dave.
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Out of curiosity Dave, was the Metcal you used the MX series or the lower-end 470KHz family?
Obviously there is a big personal preference factor, however you're the first person I've ever heard of that has owned a Metcal and decided they didn't like it..
Can't remember, but I've used the new MX series too. But like I said, Metcals are good irons, I liked it, it's the fixed tip temp I don't particularly like. I prefer having extra flexibility for the same reason you have more than one temperature tip in your kit, plus many more reasons that vary between the infinite combination of gear and solder/flux I work with. I prefer to tweak my temp to the job at hand rather than just "make do" with the one that's on there.
You're a Metcal fanboy, I get it, it's ok.
Dave.
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I agree with Dave here, there's no advantage of having to change the tip to alter the temperature, other than in a production environment where you don't want operators messing with the temperature.
Another thing to avoid is cheap temperature controlled irons, which just use a lamp dimmer circuit to change the temperature but still a step up from non-temperature regulated irons though.
The cable should also be made of heat resistant silicone rubber, never PVC which will just melt if the tip touches it.
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The argument is not so much fixed vs. variable but the benefits of an RF type super-tightly coupled system versus a conventional thermal heater, which always needs electrical insulation between the tip and the heater, inherently compromising thermal coupling.
The advantages of the former generally overcome the inherent limitation that the physics don't allow temperature adjustment, and for those occasions you need it, you do still have the option of different tips.
You're a Metcal fanboy, I get it, it's ok.
I really don't know what you can possibly mean.... ;D
(http://electricstuff.co.uk/temp/P1030070.jpg)
..and for those odd occasions when the Metcal can't quite cut it, I do occasionally resort to this...
(http://electricstuff.co.uk/temp/big_ass_iron.jpg)
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With an iron like that, who is gonna argue with you?
Outguns my T-2000 thats for sure..LOL
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You can have bigger caliber but my gun will be first to fire! ;D
(Notice the attached target acquisition device, you just can't hide from me even in darkness)
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8049/zdzz.jpg)
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I have more or less decided to buy a Hakko FX-888 as an intermediate solution for the following reasons.
1/ Easy straightforward purchase from 1 supplier.
2/ Quality of the product and the information on the Hakko website (including informative video's on tip use).
3/ An adequate supply of bits that are easy to understand and use.
4/ Small footprint.
5/ High power and variable temperature with adequate heat up speed.
6/ Reasonable cost.
My issues with the Metcal brand are.
1/ The most affordable Metcal machines have been discontinued and can only be bought secondhand.
2/ The PS series uses a lower frequency (470KHz) RF current than the higher end models. They have compromised the design in my view.
3/ Not enough power for my liking.
4/ I do not need super fast heat up times as I dont work in production.
5/ The bits are too expensive AND DIFFICULT TO GET HOLD OF.
6/ I don't understand how the bits work.
Used Metcal units,bits etc are scattered all over the world on EBay and the postage costs add up to more than a new Hakko. When I'm more solvent I may experiment with a Metcal. However my favourite tool so far is the PACE mbt-350
http://www.blackandco.com/govtsales/pace/
which can use 7 handpieces (micro tweezers, hot air pen, vacuum desoldering tool, universal soldering iron, TD-100 iron with tip heater cartridges) in one compact square unit that can be stacked. It has 3 independent channels that can all be used at the same time. Problem is it costs nearly £1k. I think the Hakko FX-888 will do me for now.
David
P.S Unless I change my mind and buy a Pace ST30 unit with a PS-90 iron. The good thing about pace is that the same iron used on the cheaper units will also work on the more expensive models so the handpieces only have to be bought once. I have also used pace tools before.
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wowwwww what i have done ;D
anyway thanks guys i think i will go on the pace one.
Dave , maybe you can make a video blog on it with Constant soldering stations VS variable soldering stations.
THANKS
Ido
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Call me mad but I've just bought myself a new Pace MBT350 station (as shown in the link above). Bought it from the states and it's saved me £300 on buying in the UK (including all taxes,delivery etc). It's a 120v version, but a 500VA transformer only costs £40. Will last me for the rest of my life and does everything I want from a unit. What the heck you only live once.
Just have to sell my Xytronic hot air station now so I can buy some tips and maybe a PS-90 iron.
I'll do a quick review when I recieve it in the post.
Brickbats and bouquets equally welcome.
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Seems like someone at Thermaltronics took offence at my 'knock-off' comment - they've sent me some of their tips to try!
I'll post findings in the reviews section when I've used them for a while.
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I'd be interested to see what you think.
BTW - I think the Fluke 87-V sucks, it's just a knock off copy of a Rigol meter. And the LeCroy Wavemaster 8s are just a copy of the Rigol scopes.
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BTW - I think the Fluke 87-V sucks, it's just a knock off copy of a Rigol meter. And the LeCroy Wavemaster 8s are just a copy of the Rigol scopes.
Oooh, nice try! Let us know when a 87-V and Wavemaster show up at your door! :) :)
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Well i've recently upgraded to a thermaltronics station + desoldering gun.. Even without a temperature control - It's amazing
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Nothing is more personal than the choice of a solder station.
I've used Weller fixed temperature station not for years, but for decades, and I changed bits when I needed to change size, not temperature. Not only me in the lab, but the guys in production used the same tool (I must admit that their "hand" was better than mine: their joints were better, even when they used an unregulated Philips iron that was so hot you could light a cigarette with the red hot barrel).
Two years ago I changed my two stations with two Weller WS81 because I felt that I needed adjustable temperature for SMD work, but I realize that I do not like them very much (the tip is smaller, with lower thermal inertia, and is too short for reaching a pad in a board passing through a forest of uncut resistor legs) and that the temp dial is always at 350 °C.
There is another choice, apart from Metcal: the JCB Advanced series, that combines a very fast heat production with adjustable temperature.
I have a friend that uses them, both in the lab and in production, and he is delighted by the performance.
See the video on their site: http://jbc.es/ (http://jbc.es/).
The real problem is the price: they are expensive....
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Just bought the JBC. Very impressive, better than Metcal thermal recovery and still adjustable temperature. Dave, this is the best of both worlds! $396.00 US and free shipping http://www.janelonline.com/JBC_CD_1BB_p/cd-1bb.htm (http://www.janelonline.com/JBC_CD_1BB_p/cd-1bb.htm)
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$396.00 US and free shipping
The price is really good: in Italy the current price is 377 euro + 21% VAT = 456 euro > 631 USD. And you must pay the shipping!
Incredible for an European product !!!! Next time I'll be in Barcelona I'll try to buy one "over the counter"...
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I found this after I ordered the JBC. http://www.howardelectronics.com/jbc/images/performance-comparison_1209.pdf (http://www.howardelectronics.com/jbc/images/performance-comparison_1209.pdf) looks pretty good.
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Well,I'm a Weller WTCP "fanboy"!
What I would like is a WTCP for 90% of the work,& a halfway reasonable variable for the other 10%.
As it is,I have the Weller,& a cruddy "El Cheapo" variable temp thingy from Jaycar,so the Weller does 99% of the work! ;D
My old Weller's element died,& I bought the Jaycar one so I could have something to solder with while I saved up for a new element.
As it happened,I found a secondhand Weller at a Hamfest ,so now I have lots of spare Weller parts I'll never need!
My last job had a rather nice "work station" with a fairly useless hot air gun & a good variable temp iron--I'd like one of those,but can't remember the brand.
It was a bit limited though,most of the grunt work was done with a WTCP.
I've never been a big fan of Pace--their desolder stations were never as good as the Royel ones.As far as I know,Royel are out of business now.
VK6ZGO
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Well,I'm a Weller WTCP "fanboy"!
VK6ZGO
The WTCP has been my only pencil iron for the last 25 years and I have been very happy. But I am often soldering heavy soldercup industrial connectors and I find myself wishing I had more power. So this JBC is supposed to be the fastest recovery iron on the planet (see the propaganda link in my post below). I will have it tomorrow night so I will let you know if my WTCP gets dethroned.
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I once read an article that it is possible to tune the temperature of a Metcal, inside the electronics somewhere. I buy a JBC when I am rich.
So many types of solder out there. If you do enough soldering such as in house assembly you will notice that 0.8mm wire requires higher temperature to melt as oppose to 0.275mm. If you had the temperature set to melt 0.8mm wire, the 0.275mm wire flux will vaporize in no time. Have you seen flux splatter before?
Sorry I am a gearstick driver. Sometimes I prefer to drive in second gear just to make some noise. What's the point of having a big ass station on your bench when you are crippled of a wonderful feature?
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So many types of solder out there. If you do enough soldering such as in house assembly you will notice that 0.8mm wire requires higher temperature to melt as oppose to 0.275mm. If you had the temperature set to melt 0.8mm wire, the 0.275mm wire flux will vaporize in no time. Have you seen flux splatter before?
Higher temperature or more power?
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Well the WTCP is officially dethroned. The JBC CD-1BB station is awesome. The thermal power is outstanding. You can put the tip in a bowl of cold water and watch the power meter jump up as it pours on the wattage to maintain the tip temperature while the water boils away. This particular model will put out up to 130 watts to maintain the temp. The heat up time is ridiculous. The 21mm wide tip goes from room temp to 350C in about 5 seconds. The 1mm cone tip takes about 3 seconds. When you put the iron in the stand it goes into sleep mode after whatever delay you set. sleep mode temp is setable but default is 200C. In the time it takes to grab the iron and wipe the tip it is up to operating temp. You can set 3 different temps that you can toggle thru with a single button push. Tip changes take about 3 seconds, no kidding.
You still have to use a suitable tip with the maximum contact area possible for the type of work you are doing to maximize heat transfer but with tip change and heat up time so quick there is no reason to not put the best tip in. Janelonline.com has the lowest prices I have found for the tips (around $25.00US each for average tips). I realize the metcals and clones have similar performance but as far as I know they cant put out 140 Watts to maintain temp and they are not adjustable temperature.
So the heavy solder cup connectors I mentioned that take about 10 seconds to totally flow with the WTCPL using a 700F tip take 2 seconds with the JBC at 662F/350C.
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Well,I'm a Weller WTCP "fanboy"!
What I would like is a WTCP for 90% of the work,& a halfway reasonable variable for the other 10%.
As it is,I have the Weller,& a cruddy "El Cheapo" variable temp thingy from Jaycar,so the Weller does 99% of the work! ;D
My old Weller's element died,& I bought the Jaycar one so I could have something to solder with while I saved up for a new element.
As it happened,I found a secondhand Weller at a Hamfest ,so now I have lots of spare Weller parts I'll never need!
My last job had a rather nice "work station" with a fairly useless hot air gun & a good variable temp iron--I'd like one of those,but can't remember the brand.
It was a bit limited though,most of the grunt work was done with a WTCP.
I've never been a big fan of Pace--their desolder stations were never as good as the Royel ones.As far as I know,Royel are out of business now.
VK6ZGO
Royel products are still available at
http://www.royel.com.au/Royel%20pages/products.htm (http://www.royel.com.au/Royel%20pages/products.htm)
When I started in electronics the WTCP was king and thats all that was used, and today I still like to use one, as well as the more fancy modern stuff from the major brands.
A rep from a company that represents Weller couldn't beleive I still used the WTCP!!!. ::)
John
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When did Metcal sell the STSS-002?
I got a power unit and iron on ebay for ~£80 yesterday and I'm pretty impressed with it so far. First test was soldering some coppers togther. No comparison to my old 25W Antex I've had for the last 15 years. I had a look inside and it seams pretty old school, which is why I ask when it was made. Not a complaint.
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METCAL RFG-30 power supply. Only STSS-PS2V-02 on the label.
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All the quality soldering standards, set temps pretty much to ~ 350C or lower [ +/- margin for variation within the standards, but definitely not about 400C]. Thus, the fixed temp camp lead by Metcal argue what's to adjust? There are temp scales for different needs, ~ 300C for SMT sized parts, and ~ 400C for large wires or connectors, but none in between. The induction type heat used in Metcal tips are very consistent and constantly adjusts power output to maintain tip temp regardless of the tip load, such as small solder points to points in large ground planes. There is no calibration for such soldering stations. The temp sensor, heater and tip are one piece. Other technologies work differently, but are built around the philosophy of fixed temps.
OTAH, the adjustable camp uses cheaper low tech separate heater units and tips, both of which wear unevenly with use; thus the need to recalibrate. It may be worn to the point the temp provided at the tip is off but the tip is still usable. There is also no sensor on the tip, its on the heater or the tip body, and the scale and adjustment assumes the calibrated heat output of the station is fully and evenly transmitted to the tip. So the adjustment is really there to extend the life of a workable tip, preferably, than to adjust heat for soldering purposes. This is typified by the Hakko 936 or the Weller WES51. If a user adjust the temp to offset the wrong size tip for the heat load or to get better performance from a worn tip then again, those suboptimal technique are allowed by the manual stations, which helps in the short term and for small labs.
There are also stations that are both adjustable and have direct tip temperature feedback and such stations are not calibrated either, and cost more than the Hakko 936.
Both the adjustable have locks to fix the station temps, so the user cannot adjust them which I presume are used in commercial production soldering situations, to emulate what the Metcal folks do.
So who is right? I don't know. But for home lab needs, the Hakko 936 types are the cheapest stations to meet soldering standards, so it provides both the ability to give the lowest heat to solder and maintain tip life, while being the lowest cost. We know for certain were the floor is in terms of modern soldering irons for best outcome, but the ceiling and benefits of moving up depends on what you are willing to spend for a need. For example, the costly stations don't require calibration, so it saves the owner/user the hassle, this can be large if you have many stations and find out the calibration is off when product defects starting popping up or the ISO inspector finds out and cites you; or if you solder a huge volume the difference is tip life between a Metcal and a Hakko 936 may start to become economically feasable.
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I just bought this and I am very happy with it. For 287 euros (375 US$) this was a steal, imo. Yes it's old but I think it will last me a lifetime. The amount of accompanying consumables alone are worth over 900$ if you where to buy them new from Pace Direct.
The only thing that sucks about it are the stands where you rest the handpieces. Only one of the handpieces really fits.
Any suggestions on buidling your own soldering iron rests?