Author Topic: Some noob questions  (Read 14172 times)

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Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #100 on: August 17, 2018, 06:43:51 am »
OK, i'll take it on faith that it's not important to focus on and won't dwell on it much longer.

It just seems unintuitive to me that a circuit would work correctly if that actual flow would be the reverse of what we imagine when designing it. For example, a complicated garden sprinkler system with valves wouldn't (presumably) work if the water flow was reversed.

 

Offline james_s

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #101 on: August 17, 2018, 06:56:42 am »
A sprinkler is an open loop, water flows through the pipes, comes out the sprinklers and lands on the lawn. Your goal with the sprinklers is to take water from a source and relocate it to the lawn. With electricity you need a circuit, the electrons are flowing in a loop around and around, you can't see them anyway so what difference does it make which direction they're flowing? The reason conventional flow is backwards in the first place is that for the first hundred years or so of working with electricity it was impossible to tell the actual direction of flow. As long as everything is consistent it makes no difference at all. The reason designing a circuit works when the flow is backwards is that all the symbols are drawn backwards too. The direction the actual electrons are moving is completely irrelevant because you can't see them anyway.

 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2018, 07:18:49 am »
OK, for the moment i'll ignore it.

So that brings me to ground.

Until now i've only been thinking about closed circuits involving batteries and resistors.

But how does ground tally with this?

Attached are images of two circuits. According to EveryCircuit they both produce the same current. But how can this be?

In one, the positive and neg. terminals are not connected (because the flow leaves the resistor and enters another enormous resistor called the Earth?!)

Until now i have been presuming that to have a circuit with flow, the pos. and neg. terminals must be connected.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #103 on: August 17, 2018, 07:30:58 am »
OK, for the moment i'll ignore it.

So that brings me to ground.

Until now i've only been thinking about closed circuits involving batteries and resistors.

But how does ground tally with this?

Attached are images of two circuits. According to EveryCircuit they both produce the same current. But how can this be?

In one, the positive and neg. terminals are not connected (because the flow leaves the resistor and enters another enormous resistor called the Earth?!)

Until now i have been presuming that to have a circuit with flow, the pos. and neg. terminals must be connected.
You're close to the answer, but take the wrong turn just before the end. What makes you think Earth is a giant resistor? You might want to look at what's needed to make a properly earthed connection before you answer that. An extra hint is that telegraph wires often are singular wires, not pairs.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:16:15 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #104 on: August 17, 2018, 07:40:13 am »
So if you take a 9 volt battery, attach a wire to each terminal, then hold one terminal in one hand, and the other terminal in the other hand, then your body, is it not, acting as a resistor? And the amount of current flowing through your body will determined by Ohm's law.

Now, replace your body with the earth under your feet, stick one wire in the ground, and the other wire in the ground a meter away, then the planet
Earth is also acting like a resistor?

Or is this not what is meant by "ground" in a circuit?

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #105 on: August 17, 2018, 07:45:26 am »
So if you take a 9 volt battery, attach a wire to each terminal, then hold one terminal in one hand, and the other terminal in the other hand, then your body, is it not, acting as a resistor? And the amount of current flowing through your body will determined by Ohm's law.

Now, replace your body with the earth under your feet, stick one wire in the ground, and the other wire in the ground a meter away, then the planet
Earth is also acting like a resistor?

Or is this not what is meant by "ground" in a circuit?
Have you looked at what's needed to make a properly earthed connection and why telegraph lines tend to be single wires?

There's a relevant difference between your body and Earth.
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #106 on: August 17, 2018, 07:51:53 am »
Have you looked at what's needed to make a properly earthed connection and why telegraph lines tend to be single wires?

Have i looked at the answer to my question? No, and i wouldn't know where to find it. That's why i'm asking questions here.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #107 on: August 17, 2018, 08:15:25 am »
Have i looked at the answer to my question? No, and i wouldn't know where to find it. That's why i'm asking questions here.
It's generally expected you try to answer questions yourself by doing some research. The questions that you can't answer yourself or require some insight can then be asked on something like a forum. Entering "what's needed to make a properly earthed connection" in search engine immediately yields useful results, such as the link below. I'm not trying to be a hard-ass here, but you'll really learn more if you investigate yourself too and I certainly wouldn't suggest searching for something if it's impossible to find. :)

If you follow the link you'll see that a properly earthed connection is a sizeable copper rod stuck into not too dry ground deep enough. This suggests there's a conductive path to the Earth itself.



Following the telegraph hint we find a page that says the following: "There were some very good reasons that the closed circuit system was almost universally used on Morse wire circuits in the USA and Canada. Single wire, ground or earth return circuits were normally used, which had half the resistance of a metallic loop, since the earth return contributed no resistance to the circuit if it was more than a few miles in length. The only circuit resistance was due to the line wire resistance and the resistance in the instrument windings or other equipment in circuit."

Apparently, the Earth effectively doesn't have much resistance at all even when compared to a wire circuit. Now, explaining this is where the forum might help. We already established there's a relevant difference between your body and Earth. This difference is the size. You probably know that larger diameter wires have less resistance than thin wires. Even though the Earth is made up of not wonderfully conductive materials, it is massively large. This is why it ends up being a pretty good conductor. It's essentially a wire with a really, really huge diameter.

http://www.housingforhealth.com/housing-guide/electrical-earth-connection-2/
http://www.morsetelegraphclub.org/wirechief/#closed
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:17:27 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #108 on: August 17, 2018, 09:55:21 am »
The "earthing" symbols used in the two schematics are very common (pun intended) and depict
a connection to a common conducting surface, this can be a ground plane on a pcb, or the metal frame of a car, or...
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #109 on: August 17, 2018, 02:23:06 pm »
OK, but i'm still not much the wiser!

The earth has effectively no resistance?

So, when the current reaches the bottom left corner of the rectangle in the attached schematic, where does the current want to go? Upwards to the neg. terminal or down into the ground? Which has less resistance?

See here at 4:30:


To quote: "A circuit is a closed loop that carries electricity.....in order to have a circuit, it has to come back to where it starts from"

How is a circuit that runs a wire from the pos. terminal of a source straight down in to the ground a closed loop?





« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 02:25:46 pm by Mr D »
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #110 on: August 17, 2018, 02:37:19 pm »
According to the attached schematic, having both the pos. and neg. terminals attached to ground will let the current flow.

But what if the two connections to ground are 10cm or 1km from each other? Does it matter?

Is it the case that the Earth is electrically neutral (or at least much more neutral then a power source), so current will flow from pos. into ground, and from ground towards neg.?

So in fact a closed circuit isn't needed?

Would current flow if the two wires (from pos. & neg.) where attached to two different but identical planets, 100 million kilometers apart?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 02:44:16 pm by Mr D »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #111 on: August 17, 2018, 03:55:51 pm »
You're confusing "ground" with "earth", they are not necessarily the same thing. When you see ground symbols on a schematic it is normally indicating "these nodes all tie together at that same point" and that point happens to be called ground. It's the common reference point for any voltage measurements shown for the circuit. Schematics are drawn this way for clarity as it reduces the rat's nest of wires in the drawing. Often you'll have various points for Vcc or various voltages which may be drawn in numerous points around the circuit. Again those symbols mean those nodes connect together. The "+5v" symbol drawn on a dozen ICs means each of those ICs power pin connects to the same +5V rail, it's neater than drawing a wire that goes all over the whole circuit.

Yes the earth has some resistance, so does a wire, everything (except for superconductors) has resistance, current can still flow.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #112 on: August 17, 2018, 07:25:24 pm »
According to the attached schematic, having both the pos. and neg. terminals attached to ground will let the current flow.

But what if the two connections to ground are 10cm or 1km from each other? Does it matter?

Is it the case that the Earth is electrically neutral (or at least much more neutral then a power source), so current will flow from pos. into ground, and from ground towards neg.?

So in fact a closed circuit isn't needed?

The earth being 'neutral' or not has nothing to do with anything.  You can model the resitance between any two points on the earth as millions or billions of parallel resistors forming a grid.  There are test instruments for measuring earth resistance.

http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/2633834_6115_ENG_A_W.PDF

On high voltage substations, we build a 2'x2' mesh of 4/0 wire under the entire area and we tie all of the metal structures to that grid.  A few Ohms of ground resistance doesn't sound like much until you drop 100,000 amps into it and the voltage goes sky high.  This is a really big deal!  Just ask the cows that die when they stand on the ground near a HV tower that experiences a fault.  The voltage difference across their legs is enough to kill them.  The grid extends a few feet out from the fence line to ensure that a person touching the fence is standing over the grid.  There's a lot of engineering in this stuff.

Quote
Would current flow if the two wires (from pos. & neg.) where attached to two different but identical planets, 100 million kilometers apart?

In the perfect vacuum of space?  Probably not.  But the vacuum isn't perfect so probably yes.

The force is so tiny it couldn't be measured and is swamped by the gravitational force.  Not important to EEs
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-electromagnetic-attraction-between-planets-and-the-sun
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:21:53 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #113 on: August 17, 2018, 08:04:10 pm »
Thanks for trying but, urrrghhhh, it's not making any sense to me.

Just when i thought i had my head around Ohm's law (which i do), this ground thing looms it's ugly head.

Let me try to precisely express what i'm not understanding:

In the attached schematic, both the pos. & neg. terminals lead to this undefined "ground". Apparently according to James S this is not real earth, but, for example the metal case of my device.

So the current will travel from pos., down the circuit, into the metal case, then back into the neg. terminal, right? So, we have a complete circuit.

But in such a device, the case is often earthed, right? So why would the current choose to travel back into the neg. terminal when there's an easier path (with virtually no resistance) to real earth?

Or to turn the question round the other way: I take a long nail, wet my hand and jam into the positive hole of a wall socket. I'm likely to get killed, right?

But why? The current can flow into my body, but not back into the negative terminal, so there's no complete circuit so no current flow, right?

Until now i've been dealing with simple circuits: a battery, one or two resistors, and that's it. Can you guys not at least partly understand how this idea of a ground leading somewhere undefined (at least in my mind) might be somewhat confusing? Is it the case of the device? Or real earth. Or an earthed case ........ or.....?

Cheers! ......... D
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:12:34 pm by Mr D »
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #114 on: August 17, 2018, 08:14:44 pm »
But if i was to stop trying to intuitively understand it, is this a correct summary of what i need to know about ground:

Every time i see a ground symbol in a schematic, i just have to imagine a wire travelling from that symbol to a single bus, with that bus (that has zero resistance) leading back to the negative terminal?
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #115 on: August 17, 2018, 08:28:20 pm »
Thanks for trying but, urrrghhhh, it's not making any sense to me.

Just when i thought i had my head around Ohm's law (which i do), this ground thing looms it's ugly head.

Let me try to precisely express what i'm not understanding:

In the attached schematic, both the pos. & neg. terminals lead to this undefined "ground". Apparently according to James S this is not real earth, but, for example the metal case of my device.

So the current will travel from pos., down the circuit, into the metal case, then back into the neg. terminal, right? So, we have a complete circuit.

Yes!  :-+

But in such a device, the case is often earthed, right? So why would the current choose to travel back into the neg. terminal when there's an easier path (with virtually no resistance) to real earth?

No, The current path needs to lead back to the power source/battery, additional connection to earth makes no difference in this circuit.

Or to turn the question round the other way: I take a long nail, wet my hand and jam into the positive hole of a wall socket. I'm likely to get killed, right?

Yes!  :--

But why? The current can flow into my body, but not back into the negative terminal, so there's no complete circuit so no current flow, right?

To be accurate, there is no positive or negative terminal in a wall outlet because its AC not DC, the propper term
would be phase and neutral.
The neutral is always connected to a ground connection "somewhere" (but never in your house or in any appliance).
Therefore current can flow from phase (thru you...) to ground.

Until now i've been dealing with simple circuits: a battery, one or two resistors, and that's it. Can you guys not at least partly understand how this idea of a ground leading somewhere undefined (at least in my mind) might be somewhat confusing? Is it the case of the device? Or real earth. Or an earthed case ........ or.....?

Cheers! ......... D

meh, don't worry, if you read all of this back in a couple of months you will also have a good laugh.  :)
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #116 on: August 17, 2018, 08:38:51 pm »
But if i was to stop trying to intuitively understand it, is this a correct summary of what i need to know about ground:

Every time i see a ground symbol in a schematic, i just have to imagine a wire travelling from that symbol to a single bus, with that bus (that has zero resistance) leading back to the negative terminal?

Good enough, also in a schematic almost all voltages (unless noted differently) are referenced to ground (connect black probe of voltmeter/multimeter to ground).

So don't worry if you see negative voltages somewhere, it is a matter of perspective.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #117 on: August 17, 2018, 08:48:52 pm »
Of course it's not as simple as that!  There are at least 3 ground symbols in common use.

https://www.rapidtables.com/electric/Ground_Symbols.html

The one we care most about is the COMMON ground - the triangle with the end pointing down.  This is electrical COMMON whether it connects to EARTH ground by way of CHASSIS ground or not.

This is an arbitrary point and it is not always the (-) end of a battery.  I could put a voltage divider around the outside of a 12V battery, ground the center point, call it common ground and the result is +6 and -6 volts relative to common ground.  Think about a center tapped transformer.  6.3V either side of the center tap and 12.6V across the ends.

When you study circuit analysis, ground will usually be obvious and, for homework problems, is generally the lower left corner of the circuit.  But it doesn't have to be!  You can pick ANY point as 'ground'.  Some choices will work better (easier) than others but they will all work.

When you get to op amps and look at single supply variants, you will see that arbitrary midpoint of the power supply created in every design (except for bizarre boundary designs).  It is important to bias the op amp to mid range such that signals can vary above and below ground (AC signals).  Again, this is where w2aew's op amp videos come in handy because he sometimes uses single supply op amps.  For dual supply op amps, ground is at the midpoint between the supplies (usually).

Further in the op amp stuff, you will find out about a 'virtual ground'.  An interesting situation where the op amp tries to create enough feedback on the (-) input to keep the difference between the inputs at 0V.  If the (+) input is grounded (0V) then the (-) input is a virtual ground and also 0V.  This is an IMPORTANT bit to understand.  Kirchhoff's Current Law comes into play here.

The law is simple:  The sum of the currents entering a node is exactly equal to the sum of the currents leaving the node.  In short, current can't pile up nor can it spill on the floor.  Or, what goes in comes out...


13 minutes into this video, you will see a voltage divider on the (+) input of an op amp.  It is probably described much earlier.  I just clicked an arbitrary time and the schematic showed what I wanted to talk about



That voltage divider puts the (+) input at half the supply voltage so the negative feedback will hold the (-) input at that same level.

Why don't you look at the Electrical Engineering path over at Khan Academy?  I did the entire course in a day or so and it's quite good.  True, it was all review but the explanations are pretty good.  If you catch the math for capacitors and inductors, that's great.  If not, there are other tutorials you can work through later.  Don't worry too much about the math, most hobbyists don't need it to enjoy the hobby.  But it is elegant!

What you WILL see is the range of applications of Ohm's Law and how it applies everywhere.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:51:30 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #118 on: August 17, 2018, 09:10:07 pm »
Or to turn the question round the other way: I take a long nail, wet my hand and jam into the positive hole of a wall socket. I'm likely to get killed, right?

But why? The current can flow into my body, but not back into the negative terminal, so there's no complete circuit so no current flow, right?

You sort of understand the idea of a circuit.  From 'circus' meaning, I imagine, 'around'.  A circuit is complete when there is a path around.  The path may be low resistance or high resistance.  This determines how much current will flow when there is an applied voltage.  But always a circuit - a complete path.

So, when you jam that nail into the wall outlet, assuming you hit the narrow blade, the phase, there is a voltage applied to your body but unless some part of your body has a low resistance path to neutral (ground) there won't be any current flow.  That's the key point!  There is no 'circuit'.  Now, grab a water pipe with your other hand and you're dead meat.

This idea of a short circuit to ground is a lot more complex and I don't want to get into it.
Quote

Until now i've been dealing with simple circuits: a battery, one or two resistors, and that's it. Can you guys not at least partly understand how this idea of a ground leading somewhere undefined (at least in my mind) might be somewhat confusing? Is it the case of the device? Or real earth. Or an earthed case ........ or.....?

Cheers! ......... D

We have common or circuit grounds all the time without ever referencing them to chassis ground or earth ground.  Battery circuits will almost never have an earth ground reference unless it comes in from the scope probe.  Why would it?  Circuits will be complete without needing an external conductor to earth.

OTOH, it is common to earth ground all exposed non-current-carrying metallic surfaces of electrical appliances (exemption for double insulated).  That's why the BNC connectors on test equipment are tied to earth ground.  Hook up you scope to your battery powered robot and now things are earth referenced.

Those animations you posted earlier showing a path through real earth are not helpful.  Yes, they are correct but they are a distraction.  We really can't talk about that path with out a lot more understanding of fields and such.  Not important at this point.

Think 'circuit', 'circus', 'around'.  There is a complete path from (+) to (-).  If not, no current will flow.  Voltage may be present at some points but without a circuit, no current flows around.
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #119 on: August 17, 2018, 09:42:35 pm »
Many thanks so far guys, i'm starting to develop the smallest inkling of understanding.

But still some things not making sense.

Attached is a pic with two, independent circuits.

To my mind, the connection of the ground at different points in the circuits should make no difference whatsoever, as they're simply connections to a bus that itself isn't connected to anything, not even to the negative battery terminal.

However, what i observe is that the voltage potential is different in the circuits. How can the voltage potential be effected when the ground is going to a dead-end street (bus leading nowhere)?



 

Offline james_s

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #120 on: August 17, 2018, 09:47:49 pm »
Any time you have two or more identical symbols with the same name on a schematic it means those points are all connected together. If you look at the actual physical circuit, "ground" will typically just be a trace like any other on a board that ties all the indicated points together. It may also be connected to the metal housing, but it doesn't have to be. It might connect to earth ground but again it doesn't have to. All the schematic tells you is that those points connect to each other, and calling it "ground" is common for a return path used by a large number of nodes in a circuit. It is usually tied to the negative terminal of the battery but not always, until the 1950s many cars were positive ground, doesn't really make any difference which way the current is flowing as long as every part of the circuit is in agreement. Terms like "ground" are really just imaginary concepts, but you have to pick some point in a circuit to call ground because any voltage measurement has to be the potential between two nodes. If you say a circuit should have 3.5 Volts on a certain pin of a component, that's assumed to be 3.5V relative to the node called "ground", otherwise you'd have to ask "Relative to what?" for every measurement.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #121 on: August 17, 2018, 09:54:11 pm »
Many thanks so far guys, i'm starting to develop the smallest inkling of understanding.

But still some things not making sense.

Attached is a pic with two, independent circuits.

To my mind, the connection of the ground at different points in the circuits should make no difference whatsoever, as they're simply connections to a bus that itself isn't connected to anything, not even to the negative battery terminal.

However, what i observe is that the voltage potential is different in the circuits. How can the voltage potential be effected when the ground is going to a dead-end street (bus leading nowhere)?

The voltage potential is different because when you measure a voltage, you are measuring it relative to ground.  If you define a different point as ground, you will see a different voltage relative to it.

The two circuits are indeed identical from a functional stantpoint, the only difference is in describing quantities. If you are standing in the street level of a building that has a basement below, you could call the place where you are standing "ground" and say that the floor above you is positive 1, and the basement floor is negative 1. Now you could instead decide that it makes sense to call the basement floor ground, then the lobby is positive 1 and the floor above that is positive 2. The building configuration has not changed, only the perspective from which you describe it. In order to specify the floor level you have to agree on what your measurement is relative to and in most cases it's relative to the ground, ie what you're standing on when you're outside the building. It doesn't have to be though, you could call the top floor 0 and assign negative numbers to any lower floors but it would likely confuse somebody else if you asked them to meet you on the negative 7th floor because the general assumption is that floor 1 is the ground level floor.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 09:57:46 pm by james_s »
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #122 on: August 17, 2018, 10:12:24 pm »
So are you saying that in reality, in that last pic i posted, the two circuits are actually identical, and the reason the EveryCircuit app shows a different voltage potential in the two circuits is that it's imagining putting the black lead of it's DMM in a different place?

So wherever you choose as "ground", if you put your black DMM lead there, the DMM will call that point 0v and work out the rest accordingly?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #123 on: August 17, 2018, 10:17:07 pm »
Yes, that's exactly it. Whatever we call "ground" is the 0V or reference point, to which all other measurements in the circuit are relative.

You can also take a voltage measurement between any two points you want, so you might say "the voltage across resistor R3 should be 0.8V" and that would be perfectly valid, but if you were to just say "the voltage at the top of R3 is 0.8V" that implies relative to the node called ground, not necessarily across R3. Note that my "R3" example is completely arbitrary and not in any way related to the specific circuit(s) you have posted.

When dealing with devices powered by the national electrical grid, ground also happens to be connected to earth for safety and practical reasons but with something powered by an isolated source like a battery or a transformer "ground" can be anything you want as long as you are consistent.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 10:21:16 pm by james_s »
 

Offline Mr DTopic starter

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Re: Some noob questions
« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2018, 10:35:14 pm »
Great, many thanks to all who replied, i feel i've come a long way in one day as this morning it made no sense to me whatsoever and now i feel like i have a bit of a handle on it!

And now to bed!

And to be continued! ;)
 


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