Author Topic: Switch mode power supply filter  (Read 13660 times)

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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Switch mode power supply filter
« on: March 05, 2018, 01:23:26 pm »
Been through a bunch of articles and you tube videos and I'm still a bit lost.

I have a PSU which produces two rails, +15v and -15v.  However both have 50mVpp pulsing ripple.  On a scope there are repeatative ringing pulses which I assume are inductor spike from the switching.

I'd like to at least have a crack at removing them.

So far I tried placing capacitors between a rail and ground, a 470uF + 100nF from each rail to "common/ground".  This had virtually no effect which is a bit bizarre.  Should the caps be across both rails, ie, the full 30V span?  I would have thought this would be pointless as both + and - rails have the same noise, making it common mode noise.  The GND/common rail is quite quiet (or so it seems on a scope, but really I am just connecting the scope GND and probe to the same circuit, so I won't see noise).  Actually the fact the caps did nothing might suggest this is indeed common mode noise.

One solution I found on the web was to place small ferrite ring inductors before the decoupling caps.  Is this likely to work?  I don't want to order them, even though they are about £1.50 for 10, if they aren't going to work.

The project they power will consume around 100-200mA, the PSU is rated for 200mA.  The project invovles lots of opamps and while I'm sure the ripple artifacts will probably not upset the audio signal, they make my scope look a mess when debugging and it's urk'ing me.

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 01:53:44 pm »
Do you get the same ripple when probing ground to ground?

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Offline Avacee

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2018, 02:10:19 pm »
What's the frequency or are they random?

Does it go away if you turn off everything else in the room?
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2018, 02:33:47 pm »
What's the frequency or are they random?

Does it go away if you turn off everything else in the room?

The frequency is hard to get as the scope will not trigger on it properly.  It's more a series of ringing pulses.

Actually, here it is:  ( wouldn't trust that freuquency as the scope was not triggering properly on it and the frequency was bouncing around all over the place ).


It is present on the PSU rails, but not elsewhere.  However it is also propogating through to the output of the amps to a lesser degree.

Red is input (clean), Yellow is output, showing the PSU noise artefacts.


https://imgur.com/a/owSEF
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 02:35:57 pm by paulca »
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2018, 03:14:07 pm »
Do you get the same ripple when probing ground to ground?

Do you mean probing two different but similar grounds?  EG: The scope ground (test signal pin) and the project ground with AC coupling, or...  do you mean probing ground relative to Earth?  ie.  attach the ground clip to an earth bond point like the Earth connector on my bench PSU and probe the circuit ground?

I haven't tried either, but it's an idea thanks.
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2018, 04:12:48 pm »
If it's common mode, it will appear even on literally the same ground.

What's actually happening is, the device overall has some voltage difference across it.  Usually with respect to the power cable, or chassis, or any other connection.  Equal and opposite reactions, this pushes current into the probe ground clip.  Voltage drop across the ground lead is significant at high frequencies, so that clipping the probe tip to ground, actually measures the voltage drop across the ground lead.

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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2018, 07:07:17 pm »
If it's common mode, it will appear even on literally the same ground.

The ground of the circuit is quiet.  But that doesn't explain why capacitors won't decouple it to ground.

Should I try the ferrite ring, LC filter or is it worth losing a volt or so using an RC or LRC filter?
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Offline Kalvin

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2018, 07:14:19 pm »
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2018, 07:57:56 pm »
Thanks.  This one looked like it was the ticket:
http://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/designing-second-stage-output-filters-for-switching-power-supplies.html

Until it listed the things I need to know to design it.

Delta-Ipp ... no idea.  Don't even know how to measure it and I can't anyway as the PSU is a potted sealed unit.
ESR of the capacitor, no idea, it's output capacitor is inside it.  If they mean "my" output capacitor, I don't know what it is yet and if I did I almost certainly don't have ESR figures for it.
Switching frequency of the converter... datasheet says "typically 300kHz"

... and so on...  Some of them I don't even understand.

Then it goes off into endless maths.  The changes are a few bits of guessing will get me a filter that is acceptable to me, but not from that guide, this guide seemed designed for fully qualified EEs to perfect the thing.  It even mentions that a basic LC filter will probably take care of almost all the noise done to 1mVpp, but doesn't even stop to suggest what that might be before delving off into the full on mathmatically approach with values I don't have and requiring test equipment I don't have to get. 

Here is an example.
Quote
Fu: The crossover frequency of the converter. For a buck it is generally FSW ?10. For a boost or buck boost type converter it is generally about a third of the location of the right half plane zero (RHPZ).
WTF?  Right hand what?

To summarise, not a beginner article.  I have found a dozen similar articles that are way over my head.

The TI one focuses on the INPUT filter for  DC-DC non-isolated PSUs, I want an output filter for an isolated one.

Experimenting with small ferrite inductors may lead me somewhere, but...

What concerns me with just winging it, is that putting an inductor and capacitor into a circuit and getting the values incorrect looks awfully similar to a boost converter.  It might be fine until I switch the unit off when the inductor collapses it's magnetic field and dumps a spike of 400V into my circuit.  GreatScott on youtube has a great video showing what happens if you build the text book boost converter circuit on a breadboard using a manual switch.  To summarise it sets the smoke alarms off.

EDIT:  I have seen a dozen FPV RC guys throwing inductors and capacitors into circuits to limit motor switching noise off their video transmittors.  The only one who put a scope on the result had voltage spikes clean off the scope, both negative voltage and positive voltage, we are talking about 20Vpp spikes at least.

So either filtering a PSU with ball park figures is not wise and the full mathematically approach is required, thus I can't do this and need a different, linear PSU or there is a "layman" way to get it "close" or "good enough" without endless maths.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 08:04:31 pm by paulca »
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Offline Kalvin

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2018, 08:11:29 pm »
Yes, those articles were a bit heavy on math. Maybe this gets you going as it shows the basic principle with very little math:

"DC-TO-DC CONVERTER NOISE REDUCTION"
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sbva012/sbva012.pdf

 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 08:24:25 pm »
Don't overthink this, if this isn't common mode noise an r-c filter should be sufficient to filter it out, well two actually one on each rail.
Dropping half a Volt on the  R should be plenty, choose the value of C for enough attenuation of the high frequency's, bigger of course means more attenuation. Also provide some capacitance near each op-amp.

If the noise is common mode than it might not be even there without your scope connected, or it might..  :)
Showing some pics and/or schematics of your setup might help there.
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 08:34:17 pm »
That shorter guide gives an example using a 100uH inductor and a 1uF capacitor.  Isn't that a boost converter topology?  That's a lot of inductance which will dump an awful spike of voltage when the power cuts... ?  Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

This is the PSU. (Yes their certificate has expired)
https://xppower.com/pdfs/SF_JCA04-06.pdf

As to a schematic, if I plug this PSU into breadboard and give it 12V DC, commoning the ground on both sides I get the noise on the scope.  It's an isolation PSU, if I don't give In and Out a common ground will it still work?

I did not add the "Class B input filter", should I?
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 10:52:22 pm »
If it's common mode, it will appear even on literally the same ground.

The ground of the circuit is quiet.  But that doesn't explain why capacitors won't decouple it to ground.

That was first things first.  Now we can deal with normal (differential mode) filtering. :)

Capacitor lead length matters, because physical length equates to inductance.  They are proportional quantities.  If, shared in common between the PS output loop and the measurement loop, the capacitor lead length is, say, 5mm, then those 5mm ~= 5nH shows up in series with the capacitor.

The length from PSU output to capacitor lead also has inductance.  Together, these act as an inductor divider, at very high frequencies.  If they are of similar lengths, you won't have much attenuation -- regardless of the capacitor value!

That may be what you are observing here.

Simple fix?  Swamp the cap ESL by throwing more inductance in series between the cap and PSU.  1uH would be enough (as you note, 100uH is kind of a lot).

You want sqrt(L/C) on par, or lesser than, the load resistance of the circuit.  So, 15V 100mA is 150 ohms, so you might want 50 ohms or less.  An R+C2 in parallel with the C helps dampen it further, usually using C2 = 3*C or so, and R = sqrt(L/C).

And yes, the same filter applies on the input side, give or take L and C values because of different V and I values.

The noise measured between grounds may be a problem yet.  For this, you need a small capacitor between grounds, and much more inductance.  This is because of two things: one, this is a high impedance path, so C should be small, and L large; two, you usually want minimal C here, which means even higher Z and L.  The inductance is provided by common mode choke(s).  CMCs also have some diff mode inductance (leakage inductance), which can be used with, or as, part of the diff mode filter.  This is how typical line filters work, and the same designs and concepts probably apply here. :)

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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2018, 11:31:13 pm »
So if I started with an LC filter using one of these:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/leaded-inductors/1350068/

And one of these:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/ceramic-multilayer-capacitors/1365583/

on each rail ... and retest to see if the noise has been reduced sufficiently?

Also on mentioning inductance and capacitance being sensitive in these things I can assume a breadboard with jumper leads is not a good place to test it?  A strip board is an option to mount the PSU and the filter.  I don't want to do that if it's not essential as the PSU is expensive and I'd lke to keep the same one through prototyping into PCB build if possible.  One soldering into a strip board won't hurt I figure.

Sometimes I wonder if my lack of interest in learning mathematics will ultimately force me away from analogue electronics.  It's not really a lack of interest, it's more about holding onto the information.  I can watch or read a dozen tutorials in a maths concept, grasp what they are explaining completely, but have completely forgotten all about it 2 weeks later.  I even have to revise simple things like rearranging equations.

When I see articles like the first one mentioned, it's like chipping away at me.

Goes like this.... I can take one or two, but when we getting 3 I'm out.
1. Looks like it involves maths!
2. Oh, quite a bit of it.
3. Ahh!  It involves trig, simultaneous equations or calculus.
Nah, sod that.

The trouble with noise is it's AC which involves 3.  However thank you for trying to skip most of 3 in your explaination.  Not sure I understand it fully, especially the later parts, but I gather a 1uH inductor and a 1uF ceramic is my best bet for trial and error.  I'm not aiming for a silent medical grade rail, just one that doesn't make my scope traces look like they need deburred.
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2018, 07:44:51 pm »
Okay, so I got a chance to breadboard this stuff again.

I have managed to kill the ripple, which was easy.  I have also managed to half the spikes.

First up I found my Tenma bench PSU is an noise antenna and even with it switched off I had spikes, so I powered the circuit from a battery and noted the residual noise with the battery disconnected was still present was much less.  So I accept this as my environmental noise.  A small pulse around 10mVpp at around 600kHz.  No idea what it is, could be the PC.  It's the only thing I didn't switch off while hunting for it, of course it could be the laptop running the DSO software.

Anyway, here are my efforts.  Please note I made a school boy error and had the probes set to X1 while the scope was set to X10, so all values on the snapshots should be divided by 10.

In all snapshots the red (ch1) trace is the raw output of the switch mode PSU's positive rail.  The load is a White LED w/ 1KOhm resistor, circa 11mA.

With a 1uH ferrite inductor and 1uF low ESR tantalum filter on the output:


With an 8uH inductor and a 1uF low ESR tantalum filter:


With a 100mH inductor and 1uF low ESR tantalum filter ( just for giggles, but more inductance had little effect):


With a 8uH inductor, a 1uF low ESR tantalum and an LM7812 linear regulator:


With a 8uH inductor, a 1uF low ESR tantalum and an LM7812 linear regulator and a 1uF+100nF on the regulator output:


So ball park figures (remembering the scope was set to x10 incorrectly) I have dropped the ripple to nearly zero and the spikes from around 32mVpp to 15mVpp.

I figure I can live with that.  I know I will still see it on the output of the opamps, but complaining about 15mVpp noise is getting petty.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 07:49:53 pm by paulca »
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2018, 07:55:46 pm »
I could possibly even live without the regulator, which only chopped about 3mV off the spikes.

Correction the capacitor is not a tantalum, it's a MLCC:
KEMET 1?F Multilayer Ceramic Capacitor MLCC 50V dc ±10% X8L Dielectric
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 08:05:39 pm by paulca »
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Offline MosherIV

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2018, 10:47:03 pm »
Quote
I have a PSU which produces two rails, +15v and -15v.  However both have 50mVpp pulsing ripple.  On a scope there are repeatative ringing pulses which I assume are inductor spike from the switching.

Errrm, can I suggest get another power supply ::) Any work with Opamps needs a really clean power supply. You will probably never get rid of the noise to an acceptable level but trying will be a good learning experience. Trying to clean up a smps for opamps (unless it is for audio) is  :horse:

At 200mA a simple linear should not be hard to make. Just make sure you get a dual 18V transformer, 15V transformer will not have enough head room for V regulators.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 10:48:54 pm by MosherIV »
 

Offline Jwillis

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2018, 12:34:39 am »
You can cancel the noise by using a split wound toroid with paralell capacitors . Since the currents are flowing in opposite directions on each rail ,equal winding's for positive and negative cancel the frequencies you don't want. You can also do this for a three rail as well by winding three coils on a toroid .
I don't know the values ,like you I find the math sometimes overwhelming.The caps are added after the toroid in parallel positive to negative and from common to negative rail and common to positive rail on a three rail.
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2018, 07:03:27 am »
Errrm, can I suggest get another power supply ::) Any work with Opamps needs a really clean power supply. You will probably never get rid of the noise to an acceptable level but trying will be a good learning experience. Trying to clean up a smps for opamps (unless it is for audio) is  :horse:

At 200mA a simple linear should not be hard to make. Just make sure you get a dual 18V transformer, 15V transformer will not have enough head room for V regulators.

It is for audio.  A simple linear supply won't work as I want to power the thing from the "automotive" power range, 9-15V DC.  So my only two options are single supply with virtual 1/2 Vcc ground or boost/buck SMPS.  I'm going to preserver with the later unless it becomes far too much of a faff.

I won't hear the spikes as they are ultra-sonic but I still want to limit them as much as possible.

You can cancel the noise by using a split wound toroid with paralell capacitors . Since the currents are flowing in opposite directions on each rail ,equal winding's for positive and negative cancel the frequencies you don't want. You can also do this for a three rail as well by winding three coils on a toroid .
I don't know the values ,like you I find the math sometimes overwhelming.The caps are added after the toroid in parallel positive to negative and from common to negative rail and common to positive rail on a three rail.

That would be a common mode choke, no?  I've been tempted to order one, but as you point out, working out what kind, size etc.  Is witch craft.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 07:05:53 am by paulca »
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2018, 09:22:26 am »
Do not put all your hopes in a linear regulator after the DC-DC supply.  Depending on frequency and load, ripple and ring can be transmitted through.

2 1-10 ohm resistors in series, or the right value inductors with 2 huge caps right at the output of the switching supply + 2 ultra low ESR caps after the 2 series resistors/inductors will kill almost everything giving you pretty much a battery clean output.

Without your schematic, we cant see what you are doing and where you are measuring this noise from.

Why not use a quality isolated DC-DC converter?  Take in 9-18v, output +/-12 or +/-15v DC, regulated.
These thing have gotten cheap today.  A high end one, good for audio grade can be 15$ where as a decade ago, they would cost 50$.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 09:33:50 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline MosherIV

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2018, 09:35:50 am »
Quote
It is for audio. 
Ok, have you tried it out as is?
Like you said, the noise is beyond hearing range.

Although the opamp and main amp will have the noise, the physical speaker will a)act like a LR filter b) be physically unable to create the high frequencies.
Just a thought.

I was surprised that some audiophiles now like and use smps instead of linear psus.
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2018, 09:39:48 am »
I was surprised that some audiophiles now like and use smps instead of linear psus.
Need citations please...
 

Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2018, 05:33:29 pm »
Do not put all your hopes in a linear regulator after the DC-DC supply.  Depending on frequency and load, ripple and ring can be transmitted through.

2 1-10 ohm resistors in series, or the right value inductors with 2 huge caps right at the output of the switching supply + 2 ultra low ESR caps after the 2 series resistors/inductors will kill almost everything giving you pretty much a battery clean output.

You are correct, as the traces I posted show, the linear regulator did not tame the spikes much, a little, maybe took 40% off them, but it did clean other HF noise off the rail a little.

More inductance didn't really make a difference.  The PSU has a maximum capacitive load of 100uF, although I did try it with 470uF's on the rails, didn't remove the spikes.

I have not tried with RC or LRC just an LC filter.

Calculating inductor, resistor, capacitor values to remove a specific frequency pulse, without breaching the 100uF capacative load value will take more maths than I am capable of or care to try.

Quote
Without your schematic, we cant see what you are doing and where you are measuring this noise from.

Why not use a quality isolated DC-DC converter?  Take in 9-18v, output +/-12 or +/-15v DC, regulated.
These thing have gotten cheap today.  A high end one, good for audio grade can be 15$ where as a decade ago, they would cost 50$.

It's not worth a schematic.  I am using an isolated low noise DC-DC converter with sub 50mV ripple (the marketing claim).  Without spending a LOT more money this is the best I could get. 

The schematic is basically the +15V output wired series though an 8uH inductor with a 1uF MLCC bypass to "common" of the DC converter after the inductor.  Standard LC filter circuit.  Across the output of that was a 1K resistor and a white LED.  The probes on the scope traces above, the red one was directly on the +15V output pre-filter the yellow one was on the - lead of the LED.  OF course I then added a 12V regulator wired in the normal way with a 1u and 100n filtering it's output. 

If you consider things in perspective I am measuring spikes that have a Vpp of about 15mV with this filter in place.  The ripple has gone almost completely, without having to use a large cap.   I think I have done pretty well.

The spike frequency is over 500kHz, it's not going to bother audio and the only reason I wanted to filter them down was because they made my scope traces look ugly.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 05:35:22 pm by paulca »
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Offline Jwillis

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2018, 01:35:13 am »
 Not sure if I' right but I came up with a 214uH 120 degree three winding balun for the three rail and a 214uH 180 degree balun for the two rail . Seems to concur with the frequencies you would like to filter Common Mode .The first caps after the coil should be around 6.8 uF  probably tantalum and the second caps should be around .3uF probably ceramic would be fine. Made a little diagram for the 3 rail since you mentioned 15 volt and negative 15 volt

I should mention that finding 120 degree coils is tough.But making them is easy.Made a few myself..well not 120 degree ones.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 02:03:29 am by Jwillis »
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Switch mode power supply filter
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2018, 01:43:13 am »
Don't forget, you need to cap the power input as well!!!
The caps should be right on the pins of the DC-DC converter as well as a set at the output pins.

If all you want to use is 100uf :( , use these guys: (I know the photo is wrong, they are 100uf 25v)
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-capacitors/8392183/
 


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