The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.

[EEVblog]

I was reading about these power supplies http://www.rako.com/Articles/29.html and came accross this http://www.rako.com/Articles/43.html about the importance of not underestimating the usefulness of an analog scope.  That's the one bit of kit I always wanted.  From what I've seen, people tend to hoard the old things or turn them into overpriced nostalgia pieces on ebay.  I haven't met anyone since the "old" Radio Shack days that shares and swaps.

Not so, Happens all the time. I've given away a couple of scopes, as have others on this forum and other forums I used to be on.
I know someone on this forum just scored a HP mixed signal scope for nix from a generous person.
Happens all the time, always has, always will, people just don't ask, or don't ask the right way.

[ptricks]

Lets get something straight.
Learning arduino is NOT learning electronics. You are learning how to program a microcontroller board and do some software/firmware. This existed long before Arduino came about BTW.
Ok, it can be an introduction and stepping stone into electronics for many, and that's great, but once you get beyond the pre-built hardware and software, you will need an oscilloscope. This is as true today as it was back in my first days in the 1970's, and before that.

Arduino has a lot of the projects that require you to learn analog electronics and people are not just using pre-built hardware and software. There are many that learn analog electronics using the Arduino and similar boards.   I was totally against Arduino as a platform to learn the analog side until I spent some time answering questions on their forums and found it is a good way for people to learn analog electronics as well as digital.  Questions like 'how to convert a PWM to control a linear regulator', 'how to use opamp to buffer inputs, how to control an external device with mosfet , how to make a battery charging system.  All of those are analog related and people are learning electronics while using the boards.

you bet I'd spend $50 of that on an old analog, without hesitation

I don't know where you live but you will not find a scope for that price where I live.
You are lucky if you can get one for $100 + $50 shipping. 

[ptricks]

I find it odd and sad that the electronics community is still MS centric.  If anyone has some junk they want to unload in and around central MA, I'll be glad for the opportunity.  Unfortunately I really am poor so I can't afford to pay anything but am a wiz at Linux if you need any advice in that area.  I have found that even if people are gifted at electronics like an old friend of mine is, some still aren't that up on the software / os side of thing.

I can understand your situation as I volunteer to help local people learn electronics and many of them don't have jobs currently or are very low income. I think one of the disadvantages of the USA is that it is a fairly large country and unfortunately things like scopes are heavy and costly to ship so not easy to just give away a scope like you could a meter because the person donating usually isn't local.  I realize it isn't ideal but if you really need to use a scope there are the sound card based ones that work okay for some basic stuff. I helped someone capture IR remote patterns using a sound card based scope and the results were actually decent.
http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/scope_en

A simple probe to get started :
http://myevilgenie.com/course-set/media/HTML/scope%20probe/Build%20OscilloScope%20Probe.htm

[EEVblog]

I don't know where you live but you will not find a scope for that price where I live.
You are lucky if you can get one for $100 + $50 shipping.

Wrong.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EZ-Digital-OS5020-OS-5020-Analog-Dual-Channel-20MHz-Oscilloscope-/360688783474
$50, Buy It Now.
$43 to ship across the continental US, presumably less the closer you are.

Currently $10 + $22 shipping, an excellent scope.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-Oscilloscope-20MHz-2-Channel-CH-/251306310330

$89 or near offer with FREE shipping
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-Working-Hitachi-V-422-Two-Channel-40-MHZ-Oscilloscope-/171080612379

Put an ebay watch for analog scopes within XX miles, and then wait, if you don't want to pay any postage.
Not hard, took me seconds to find those.

[ptricks]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EZ-Digital-OS5020-OS-5020-Analog-Dual-Channel-20MHz-Oscilloscope-/360688783474
$50, Buy It Now.
$43 to ship across the continental US, presumably less the closer you are.

Currently $10 + $22 shipping, an excellent scope.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-Oscilloscope-20MHz-2-Channel-CH-/251306310330

$89 or near offer with FREE shipping
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tested-Working-Hitachi-V-422-Two-Channel-40-MHZ-Oscilloscope-/171080612379

Put an ebay watch for analog scopes within XX miles, and then wait, if you don't want to pay any postage.
Not hard, took me seconds to find those.

You couldn't fit any of those in the budget and still have money left for the other stuff.
You can find cheap scopes, but under $100 is rare to get something usable. For example the $89 has no probes, puts it over $100 . 
That scope for $10 will NOT go for $10 . I watch ebay closely for equipment because I teach low income people electronics and it is difficult to find stuff that is fully functional for cheap.  Shipping usually kills the deal. I even watch craigslist and classified ads for stuff, sometimes I get lucky but not often. 

[EEVblog]

You couldn't fit any of those in the budget and still have money left for the other stuff.

Wrong. Depends entirely what you value.
$150 left can buy you a multimeter, a soldering station, a breadboard, and parts.

You can find cheap scopes, but under $100 is rare to get something usable. For example the $89 has no probes, puts it over $100 .

Wrong again.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-2-X-100-MHz-Oscilloscope-Scope-Clip-Probes-Probe-Kit-Fast-USA-Ship-/280776029358
And that's without Make An Offer. I bet you'd get it for $80. That's $90 total including shipping anywhere in the US + 2 brand new probes.

That scope for $10 will NOT go for $10 .

It didn't go for $20, TWICE!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-Oscilloscope-20MHz-2-Channel-CH-/350826018629?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-Oscilloscope-20MHz-2-Channel-CH-/251296887258?

This one sold for $39:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-V-212-20mHz-Analog-Oscilloscope-/151067045989

20 bucks:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-Oscilloscope-V-302F-30MHz-Denshi-Made-in-Japan-/171037467381

And that's just searching for Hitachi scopes!

I watch ebay closely for equipment because I teach low income people electronics and it is difficult to find stuff that is fully functional for cheap.  Shipping usually kills the deal. I even watch craigslist and classified ads for stuff, sometimes I get lucky but not often.

You aren't trying hard enough.
Don't you think that a 40MHz Hitachi is not worthwhile at (at worst) $99 including new probes?
Here is your chance, grab 5 of them!

[madires]

I was reading about these power supplies http://www.rako.com/Articles/29.html and came accross this http://www.rako.com/Articles/43.html about the importance of not underestimating the usefulness of an analog scope.  That's the one bit of kit I always wanted.  From what I've seen, people tend to hoard the old things or turn them into overpriced nostalgia pieces on ebay.  I haven't met anyone since the "old" Radio Shack days that shares and swaps.  I figured with the abundance of info and hackery out there I could end up building something over time or even using an old smallish tv and getting something rudimentary going.  I'm no stranger to a computer and wouldn't be opposed to doing something usb if it weren't for the fact that I don't do windows.

I see those totally overpriced scopes over here too. Power sellers are asking for insane prices for 15+ years old scopes. Simple old 2ch 20-40MHz Hamegs as expensive as a brand new 50MHz Rigol (in some cases even more expensive). Luckily there are some private sellers with auctions starting at EUR 1 and ending usually around EUR 70 for a 20MHz Hameg (still no bargain). If you are looking for other T&M stuff you'll see mostly insane prices or if you find something for a reasonable price it's just one step away from the junk yard. The same for old network elements (Cisco and so on). For fun I watched some overpriced stuff for a while. It's like the seller is waiting for someone in hurry to get a specific device or some moron ignorant of price and value.

I find it odd and sad that the electronics community is still MS centric.  If anyone has some junk they want to unload in and around central MA, I'll be glad for the opportunity.  Unfortunately I really am poor so I can't afford to pay anything but am a wiz at Linux if you need any advice in that area.  I have found that even if people are gifted at electronics like an old friend of mine is, some still aren't that up on the software / os side of things.

I'm a Linux user too and tend to get only stuff which (also) runs under Linux, trying to avoid MS as much as possible. It would be nice to see more support from the big vendors but it's no so bad as one might think. There are a lot of electronics specific programs for Linux including commercial ones too, but by far not as much as for the MS world.

[liquibyte]

Not so, Happens all the time. I've given away a couple of scopes, as have others on this forum and other forums I used to be on.
I know someone on this forum just scored a HP mixed signal scope for nix from a generous person.
Happens all the time, always has, always will, people just don't ask, or don't ask the right way.

I always feel uncomfortable asking people for things.  Plus, I think something freely given like that should probably go to a student that really has a need for it.  I just like to learn and never stop.  I like the hobby but I don't think I'll ever get past that point.  I'm 45 and don't forsee breaking into the business unless I entrepreneur it out myself.  I'm not really good at money or dealing with people, not that I don't admire those that are and can.  That said, one never knows what the future holds.

I can understand your situation as I volunteer to help local people learn electronics and many of them don't have jobs currently or are very low income. I think one of the disadvantages of the USA is that it is a fairly large country and unfortunately things like scopes are heavy and costly to ship so not easy to just give away a scope like you could a meter because the person donating usually isn't local.  I realize it isn't ideal but if you really need to use a scope there are the sound card based ones that work okay for some basic stuff. I helped someone capture IR remote patterns using a sound card based scope and the results were actually decent.
http://www.zeitnitz.de/Christian/scope_en

A simple probe to get started :
http://myevilgenie.com/course-set/media/HTML/scope%20probe/Build%20OscilloScope%20Probe.htm

I've seen the soundcard route done, just wasn't sure how well it worked.  That and I'd hate to blow my system up from a misstep.  I exploded my first cap not too long back and that scared the hell out of me.

I'm a Linux user too and tend to get only stuff which (also) runs under Linux, trying to avoid MS as much as possible. It would be nice to see more support from the big vendors but it's no so bad as one might think. There are a lot of electronics specific programs for Linux including commercial ones too, but by far not as much as for the MS world.

I've managed to get a few things running through wine if I want to try them out such as DipTrace which I heard about here.  I run Arch and Eagle is in the repo but with the obvious limitations.  Given that the server market is the way it is, I just don't understand the vendor lock-in to MS if the programmers are capable.  Quite often they aren't which is why things don't get ported over.  I don't mind proprietary but I do want native.  I also have the other usual suspects such as Kicad and gEDA but those have limitations as well, just of a different sort.  I'll bet I've installed every distro out there at least once since the mid 90's trying to get things workable to my satisfaction.  So far for my needs, Arch is the clear winner and has been for at least 5 or 6 years.

[SLJ]

HAM Fests in the US are great places to find scopes.  I've sold 5 or 6 good working 20-50 MHz analog scopes over the past few years for $25 - $50 and bought a couple of good Tek 465s for under $100.  For some reason I can't pass up a good deal on a 456 with no shipping. 

If I had to choose the basic things I would like to have on my bench it for general electronics it would be (in order) A good DMM, soldering station, power supply, analog multi-meter, and an analog scope.  Everything else is fluff or required or handy for some particular area of electronics like a signal generator for restoring old radios.

[KD0CAC John]

I wish I had more room to work and store gear .
Because of another ham radio guy or actually several I have scrapped all kinds of test gear , mostly dead or in need of repair .
Almost every ham fest I take home free stuff , 2 weeks ago I had not even got to the 1st table , and because of selling stuff cheap and repairing all kinds of electronics , a couple guys saw me walking up the the yard the ham-fest [ ham radio swap meet ] hay john heres the free pile .
1st thing I grabbed was a Techtronix 468 opt 12 - after some testing found that there were issues in the high voltage area , no trace   , frozen brightness pot , broken pwr switch , at that point I scrapped it , save a lot of parts .
2nd was an older Sony commercial camera tripod case - scrapped .
If I had the room and repair bench space I would fix much more of this stuff .
I have picked up trailer & pickup loads of gear on average about 3-4 loads a yr. , with small finds 1-3 times a month .
I find that there are fewer people wanting this stuff every yr. , so it hard to justify the expense of getting together the space .
In fact , that is were a lot of this comes from , most surplus , consignment , store fronts are closing .
I'm a large metro area and there fewer people doing repairing , building or buying any of this stuff .
One friend and source does a lot of selling on ebay and my friend and I get his overflow by the pickup truck load 2-3 times a yr. we even get paid $15 hr. to clear out his overflow .   

[Lightages]

I don't know how I forgot it  , but one of Dave's posts mentioned a solderless breadboard, so it is there now.

[SLJ]

I don't know how I forgot it  , but one of Dave's posts mentioned a solderless breadboard, so it is there now.

Solderless breadboards are very handy for anyone doing circuit design.



The top one I built in the 80s with a built in function generator, power supplies, and voltmeter.  The middle one I picked up later, and the last is a vintage digital designer.  If you take your time you can find these used in the US pretty cheap.  The middle one was like new and I paid around $30 for it. Not bad considering it has built in power supplies, function generator, displays, and is built into a nice carry case.  The digital designer is a little harder to find cheap as vintage computer collectors like to have them.  It's not as usable for general circuit design anyway.

[vk6zgo]

It does involve analog stuff, but very little that cannot be done with a good meter.

Rubbish. If you want to learn electronics an oscilloscope is the tool you need to understand what's going on and see what's happening to signals vs time.

When someone tells me they have little to spend I look for the most bang for the buck, and spending money on an old analog scope just isn't something I would do with that budget.

Your opinion.
My opinion (and that of great many, and dare I say it, the vast majority) is that it is important and would be money well spent.
But of course if that person just wants to play around with serial protocols etc and talk to chips and modules, then yes, a bus pirate might be more useful to them to begin with. But that's just setting up a straw man argument.
For general electronics education, nothing, absolutely nothing beats an oscilloscope.

You are making a blanket recommendation to get a niche piece serial digital electronics troubleshooting gear, and to me that's just poor advice when for almost the same price or a bit more you can likely get an old analog scope that is useful in countless more general applications and will expand the education of and electronics beginner more than any other tool. Heck, because of that I'd recommend they spend half their budget on an old scope if needed.

Implying that people who use the arduino are inferior is something I would have hoped would be beneath you.

Lets get something straight.
Learning arduino is NOT learning electronics. You are learning how to program a microcontroller board and do some software/firmware. This existed long before Arduino came about BTW.
Ok, it can be an introduction and stepping stone into electronics for many, and that's great, but once you get beyond the pre-built hardware and software, you will need an oscilloscope. This is as true today as it was back in my first days in the 1970's, and before that.

If I had $250 budget setting up a lab, you bet I'd spend $50 of that on an old analog, without hesitation. And I'd recommend that to anyone as a sensible thing to do.

That generation may be the engineers of tomorrow and thankfully they are open minded enough to not believe that you have to follow some set path to learn electronics.

Did I ever say you had to follow some path?
No, in fact I said if that's what you want to do, fine.
I have said countless times that Ardunio is a good thing as it has gotten a great many people into electronics.
I don't care which way you get into electronics, only that you do.

Of course,back in the day,when the most basic Oscilloscope cost  a couple of months pay,we had to do without one!
The best thing about landing a Technical job for us Geeks,was getting access to the Firm's test gear.

I remember one midnight shift,building all sorts of versions of multivibrators using 12AT7 valves on an old  mantel radio chassis.
Being able to look at the waveforms at various points using a little Telequipment Serviscope drove home the theory which I was supposed to already know!

I didn't get into trouble for wasting time,as there wasn't much to be done except to "be there",& in those days, Employers didn't think time spent on "self education" a waste!

[Lightages]

Sorry to drag this thread back from the grave, but I was curious.

Has anyone actually put together something close to my list? Beginners always come here looking for help getting started and some recent posts have reminded me of this thread. So I am bumping and looking to see if anyone starting out has purchased anything I listed or similar?

[EEVblog]

A follow-up video to this would be good.
I do think $250 is pretty limiting though.
$500 perhaps?
After all, people think nothing of spending this sort of money on the latest phone, game console etc.

[EEVblog]

Of course,back in the day,when the most basic Oscilloscope cost  a couple of months pay,we had to do without one!
The best thing about landing a Technical job for us Geeks,was getting access to the Firm's test gear.

Ah yes, those were the days.
I spend many a year as a beginner without an oscilloscope.
People really are spoiled for choice in the modern world. Not only in bang-per-buck Chinese priced gear, but worldwide online ordering and shipping, and places like this forum and blogs to learn about what these deals!

[Lightages]

A follow-up video to this would be good.
I do think $250 is pretty limiting though.
$500 perhaps?
After all, people think nothing of spending this sort of money on the latest phone, game console etc.

Yes, $250 was very restrictive. I was tying to show the lowest cost to have something usable. it was definitely much less than optimum. There are still many people in the world who can't, don't want to pay more than the absolute least possible. Examples? Students, pensioners of fixed income, children, people from countries with very low economics, etc...

Perhaps the idea is a list of things for different budgets, ie: $250, $500, $1000, $5000.....

Of course I believe that my idea for the lowest cost "real" lab was reasonable. Many people disagreed and some agreed. The continuing questions from beginners about starter gear shows that the question still has not been answered sufficiently.

[pickle9000]

@Lightages

Excellent idea, your list looks good, one stop shopping also good, probably most valuable as a beginners reference. I do really like the 250.00 dollar limit, for many even that may be out of reach (sad but true).

I have that scope I picked it up because another forum member here is remaking the software and it looked interesting. I'm not a fan of a pc based scopes but if the choice is that one or none then that one is a fair choice.

Of course I'd like to see more. Keeping to DX.

http://www.dx.com/p/workshop-component-basic-element-pack-set-kit-case-for-starter-beginner-multicolored-193414 $25.00 a big ticket item breadboard and assorted parts / wire.
http://www.dx.com/p/ne555-pulse-module-w-led-indicator-blue-dc-5-15v-232460 $3.44 a 555 pulser board, one of those things I think you need on a bench.

[pickle9000]

I wonder what Frankie aka 99centhobbies thinks about this?

[nowlan]

I think you have two kinds of beginners. children and students.

I recall my brother putting dicksmith funway kits together.
eg, example 2


I still think structured kit building is best way to introduce people to electronics.


Kitstop Starter Pack -- $47


5 Starter Kits Bonanza -- $25.50


An adjustable AC adapter to eliminate batteries.
Rinky dink multimeter.

Dont forget hobby king with their 15 soldering iron and multimeter.
My (clueless) friends still think they are bargain of the century.

[Swake]

Everyone seems to start the hobby with hundreds of dollars to spent....
This is part of my story:

I was around 6 years old when I started with one screwdriver I found somewhere in my dad's man-cave. Heating the tip on a gas kitchen stove to solder. Had to replace the plastic handle with a block of wood after a couple of uses.

Received 'universal' pliers from family. Previous to this I used scissors.

The power supply from my model car racing circuit worked very well to power my circuits.

I started using signal bulbs to measure things. Didn't last long. first real purchase was that of an analog multimeter. Costed the equivalent of about 30$ today. At that time a HUGE lot of money for me.

Desoldering? Heat the tabs of the component and tap the board on the working surface. Best and quickest method ever. Careful though I doubt this is the recommended way :-D

I had a ton of very diverse components and parts. Everything was salvaged from 'old' devices. I still use some of these today.

Of course over time my tool collection expanded. And I have to admit a decent scope, some reliable lab power supplies and reflow solder equipment helps. But you don't need this to start building some smoke generators and electrocuting yourself

[gildasd]

A follow-up video to this would be good.
I do think $250 is pretty limiting though.
$500 perhaps?
After all, people think nothing of spending this sort of money on the latest phone, game console etc.

If you  are a "normal" student and you don't have $500 for an IPhone unless you can score one second hand of during a silly low price promo (my case).
I'm a older student, I have savings, I could spend $1000 but then:
- The wife would be pissed off (she is working while I go back to uni).
- I would spend half of that on stuff I don't really need. Better focus on the essentials, play around, then invest intelligently.
- I'd probably be lazy and buy stuff instead of making it. Losing a great deal of the educational value of making/assembling it.
- Or I would hesitate too long/not spend the money, because the 1st step is too high.

So the $250 point (excluding consumables) would be great.

If my lame arsed non IE self could make some suggestions:
Do the video starting lower, in steps:
- 100$ bare minimum. (meter and soldering iron?)
- 250$ Student starter. (more)
- 500$ Hobbyist with a job.(MORE)

These should include certain elements in kit form:
- Power supplies.
- signal generators.
- you decide, you the man.
And others equipment that the beginner MUST take time to source free/Ebay/back of the University shed:
- Analogue scope.
But should not include:
- Standard consumables.
- Basic tools (pliers, hammer etc) that no self respecting opposable thumbed two legged mammal should be without.
- Cursus specific things: for my studies, I need asynchronous AC motors/generators and related stuff, this is non standard, so not on the list.
Remarks:
- If the meter can be used in 240V AC mains for standard electrical wiring work, then the student can make a bit of side cash assisting an electrician

Cheers mate.

G

Nota:
Other thread I started with the same idea:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/absolute-beginer-kit/msg464094/#msg464094

[jay]

Here's some cheap stuff from DX that I've been happy with:
http://www.dx.com/p/uni-t-ut61c-2-6-lcd-digital-multimeter-red-dark-grey-1-x-9v-battery-168702
http://www.dx.com/p/5-inch-electrical-cutter-6996
http://www.dx.com/p/banana-plug-to-alligator-clip-probe-cable-test-lead-red-black-100cm-10-pcs-149991
http://www.dx.com/p/0805-pratical-smd-resistor-capacitor-sample-book-black-80-types-3725-pcs-214257

There's actually a lot of items from DX in my lab.. Some of their products have been waste of money.

[abaxas]

Why do people think they need $250 to start in this hobby?

I started on a 30 in 1 which came as a random christmas gift. Got a 200-1 for my birthday a few months later. (I was about 11/12 at the time)

Slowly I bought a breadboard, components, soldering iron and the cheapest digital multimeter money could buy. I built radios, amplifiers, mad flashy light art etc etc and as I got more competent I built my own Hifi, speakers an 8 bit sampler for my computer etc etc.

You don't need a lab for this hobby, you buy one as you go along. Get exploring, not lusting after gear.

[gildasd]

Why do people think they need $250 to start in this hobby?

Personally I need to start hitting the ground running...

If I was doing this from a "strictly a hobby" perspective, I would 100% agree with you. But as many people here, I have professional interest in this.
The hobby is just a fun way to "gamefy" the learning process...
Because IE theoretical classes suck arse (if you want, check out one of our book, the WILDI, it's the funnest one we have, older versions are available free on the internet).
With that in mind, I do not want to invest in anything that is too cheap/crap, because I will not be able to use it later (and will shortly end up in a landfill - that's against my ethics)...

As a student I can't afford / have the time to buy something over and over again because it's not good or does not do what I want.
From my perspective, a $10 meter is VERY expensive but a $70 UNI-T meter is VERY good value
As for bench stuff, I'll beg borrow and scrounge or make everything from kits.