Author Topic: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.  (Read 42176 times)

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Offline Creep

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2014, 02:03:17 pm »
I beg to differ about the "spoiled" part, when talking about a scope as a necessity for learning. If I'm serious about learning (from a perspective of an EE student hoping to be working in the industry in the future), I want to make up a schematic first, do the maths by hand after, simulate the circuit next and then build it and hook it up to a scope to see if my calculations were any good. Without access to a scope, I'd always be left wondering whether or not my calculations and knowledge  were actually true and see how theory differs from practice.
Now I do realize this is a lot different for hobbyists and they usually don't care about the scientific part of things, but I usually try to treat my projects like school Lab work and take their analysis to the heart.

TL:DR - A scope is a must in my opinion, when the aim is to learn and understand the workings of a circuit. Until now I have been lunging my projects to the university to probe them, but since I won't have access to it's equipment during the summer, a Hantek 6022BE was ordered and it arrived today. Haven't had the chance to check it out yet. Will look to get something a tad more functional like the DS1074Z or DS2072A when I have the money.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2014, 02:11:55 pm »
I beg to differ about the "spoiled" part, when talking about a scope as a necessity for learning. If I'm serious about learning (from a perspective of an EE student hoping to be working in the industry in the future), I want to make up a schematic first, do the maths by hand after, simulate the circuit next and then build it and hook it up to a scope to see if my calculations were any good. Without access to a scope, I'd always be left wondering whether or not my calculations and knowledge  were actually true and see how theory differs from practice.
Now I do realize this is a lot different for hobbyists and they usually don't care about the scientific part of things, but I usually try to treat my projects like school Lab work and take their analysis to the heart.

TL:DR - A scope is a must in my opinion, when the aim is to learn and understand the workings of a circuit. Until now I have been lunging my projects to the university to probe them, but since I won't have access to it's equipment during the summer, a Hantek 6022BE was ordered and it arrived today. Haven't had the chance to check it out yet. Will look to get something a tad more functional like the DS1074Z or DS2072A when I have the money.

Good and cheap...
And you'll spoil yourself when you have a job... Same plan here :)
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline Creep

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2014, 02:28:25 pm »
I only decided to go for it because of the nice job our fellow member RichardK did making a usable software utility for it. Since I only found negative opinions on the Hantek software, I wouldn't have dared to go for it otherwise. Maybe going to post my thoughts on it in a couple of days if I have anything useful to say about it.
 

Offline bwat

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2014, 03:16:19 pm »
For a lot of us it's a case of spending the money you need to spend. I wanted to relearn all the electronics I had forgotten and I had a book on electronics (Fischer-Cripps. A.C., The Electronics Companion. Institute of Physics, 2005.) which contained a series of experiments and a list of equipment needed for those experiments. I just bought everything on that list (oscilloscope, two channel power supply, signal generator, resistors, caps, diodes, transistors, opamps, etc.). In total it cost about the same as a high-end laptop.  To someone of my age, this is unbelievably cheap!
"Who said that you should improve programming skills only at the workplace? Is the workplace even suitable for cultural improvement of any kind?" - Christophe Thibaut

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Offline LEDAero

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2014, 06:05:15 am »

 :wtf:
Last I checked, basic electronics learning does still involve the basic analog stuff.
Saying that decoding serial protocols is more important than being able to view analog signals on an oscilloscope means that you aren't learning electronics, you are just one of the new arduino generation :palm:
Well, ok, that's fine if that's just what you want to do, but that thinking IMO does not belong to "setting up a basic electronics lab".
#1 - Multimeter
#2 - Power Supply
#3 - Oscilloscope
#4 - Soldering iron

A bus pirate would rank somewhere down in the double priority list.

As one of the targets of a post like this, the one thing we really need?  A lexicon to translate all the buzzwords used by electronics geeks into human-readable format.

Like, wtf is a 'bus pirate'?  (yes, I know - read back in the thread... but this post is meant for n00bs... but it looks more like a 'this is why I'M cool' thread for experienced electronics dudes... us learners got lost about page 2.

Having just recently started trying to learn electronics, my toolkit currently contains: a ton of hand tools - that I already had, like screwdrivers, side cutters, pliers, multimeter, unsuitable soldering iron, etc.

What it has recently acquired: breadboard, bench power supply, a better multimeter, better lighting, lots of connectors, better quality solder, boxes of resistors, caps, transistors, LEDs, switches, plugs, little plastic boxes, a hobby mat (for cutting and soldering and glueing stuff), batteries and holders.

What's next? A better soldering iron, a logic analyser and an oscilloscope. And apparently I need a waveform generator, but I'm not sure why.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 06:07:17 am by LEDAero »
 

Offline gilbenl

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2014, 07:01:27 am »
Went without so much as touching an iron for about 10 years so I guess that puts me back in the noob category. Had sold all my stuff and purged much of my knowledge for other things. Recently got back into it and have spent the last 6 months stalking ebay for good deals. Some recommendations, noob to noob (all prices incl shipping, USD):

Fluke 27 (Grey Front)-$60
Agilent 54621A Oscilloscope-$170 (you'll have to pry this thing out of my cold dead hands)
BK Precision 4011 Function Gen-$65
Agilent E3610A Power Supply-$55 In original box, spotless.  :-DD
Agilent 3478A DMM (Cal'd)-$75

Total: $425

I've probably spent $850 once you throw in an FX888, components and ancillaries, but most of this stuff will cover me well into the future. As I collected all this kit, the hardest part was being patient while I reached a "critical mass"-having enough stuff to actually do something fun. While I waited, I paid $100 and took an intro to electronics enrichment course at a local community college. This not only gave me a structured environment to brush up on my knowledge, but virtually unlimited access to their lab. $100 a semester for a fully stocked lab is not a bad deal...
What doesn't kill you, probably hurts a lot.
 

Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2014, 01:49:11 pm »

What's next? A better soldering iron, a logic analyser and an oscilloscope. And apparently I need a waveform generator, but I'm not sure why.

An oscilloscope is the next important thing. Any oscilloscope is better than none.
 

Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2014, 01:53:41 pm »
Recently got back into it and have spent the last 6 months stalking ebay for good deals. Some recommendations, noob to noob (all prices incl shipping, USD):

I've probably spent $850 once you throw in an FX888, components and ancillaries, but most of this stuff will cover me well into the future.

Keep in mind that the idea of this thread was to give beginners a clear and easy to obtain minimal lab to start. Sure random good deals can be had on ebay but it doesn't help the beginner who has no clue where to start and what to look for. The $250 budget is to help those who don't have much money and the single source of items is to help those who don't have access to things that many of us do.
 

Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2014, 02:39:54 pm »
Interesting different list 3roomlab, but ifixit only ships to the US.
 

Offline gilbenl

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2014, 06:57:25 pm »
Keep in mind that the idea of this thread was to give beginners a clear and easy to obtain minimal lab to start. Sure random good deals can be had on ebay but it doesn't help the beginner who has no clue where to start and what to look for.

Understood-That was my point-To highlight individual pieces of higher-end gear that can fit in a beginner budget. The hardest part about building up my bench was knowing which products were quality and at a good price. I don't expect a beginner on a limited budget to buy all of these, but if they can get 1 or 2 in place of the no-name el cheapo special, all the better. There's also safety. I'd rather probe the wrong thing with a $50 used Fluke than the equivalently priced new meter any day of the week. Some may disagree and there are exceptions, but...

I also believe they tend to hold their value longer. If I had bought a rebadged el cheapo PSU, the resale on it would be nil the day I opened the box. Conversely, the E3610 that I grabbed for $50 will probably still fetch $50 in a year or more. Parents purchasing starter items for their kids would probably be interested in some of these items for these reasons.

I was just bragging about the 3478A though. Don't buy that unless you have a specific use in mind.
What doesn't kill you, probably hurts a lot.
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2014, 08:05:36 pm »
Quote
You don't need a lab for this hobby, you buy one as you go along. Get exploring, not lusting after gear.

I completely agree :)

In reality, the most important thing in the room is the hobbyist him/herself and what they learn from the hobby.
The tools or the work environment aren't really that relevant when starting out in electronics. But this forum tends to give the opposite message IMO.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 08:07:07 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #86 on: December 05, 2014, 08:49:15 pm »
Yeah, no lusting right now...

My recent budget buys:
- UT61B Multimeter: 56€
- Extra Probes: 4€
- MW 3V tp 12V 2amp power supply: 31€
- Leads for the MV with clips: 2€
- 10 crocodile clips: 2€
- 2nd breadboard. Transparent this time, just because: 5.6€
- Box of rigid wires for breadboard (mostly to have a box to put all my components for uni):4.5€
- 2ex 4001, 2ex 4011 to test gate theory: 2€
- 4ex 741 to be able to lay out multiple op amp experiments at the same time. 2€
- Soldering kit (includes de-soldering pump etc); free when I went to buy 200m of CAT5 and 200m of TV cable for my house.
-Different tip: 1.75€

I'm thinking of getting a dirt cheap "solder yourself" USB oscilloscope.
I know it's crap, I just want to be able to test if my circuits give a signal, not do any measurements (those are done in class) and it's only 37€...
https://www.velleman.eu/products/view/?id=411826
They also have a wave form generator:
https://www.velleman.eu/products/view/?id=338491
But it's seems hardly usable with 741's... So not compatible with my class work that's based on the LM741.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 08:53:41 pm by gildasd »
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2014, 09:59:15 pm »
Let's face it - even (or especially) as a hobby electronics can be horrendously expensive, if one wants to go further than blinking leds,  testing a few op amps or a 1001 fun circuits.
However to start on a budget then a reasonable multimeter, a battery, and a breadboard is minimum. That a big box of bits and even more importantly imagination.
 

Offline LEDAero

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2014, 05:41:50 am »

An oscilloscope is the next important thing. Any oscilloscope is better than none.

That's what I'm saving up for... but with all the other purchases I am making for my CNC machine, it's having to take a back seat.

After lots of research, I can get a Hantek DSO5072P for $200, which seems to be about the best unit for the money I have.

I look at it like I did my first motorcycle. It had two wheels and could stop, after a fashion, but it only cost me $250 and I kept it for a couple of years. The next 50+ bikes were bought with knowledge gained from that first bike, but I would never have gotten into bikes without buying that first POS :) I'm not expecting the Hantek to be the best thing in the world, but it will be more than adequate to learn on.

Now, why do I need a signal generator?
 

Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2014, 02:06:51 pm »
A function generator is not that important IMHO. When it is needed is when you are trying to trouble shoot amplifiers and other circuits that take some kind of input signal. For most things you can make a simple Wein bridge oscillator for a buck or two. You can also use the output of a sound card.

FYI, a signal generator is for generating RF signals, and a function generator is used for generating different waveforms.
 

Offline madires

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2014, 06:59:17 pm »
FYI, a signal generator is for generating RF signals, and a function generator is used for generating different waveforms.

Isn't signal generator the general term for all kind of function/RF/video/whatever generators?
 

Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2014, 01:47:08 am »
The nomenclature might have been corrupted but the original meaning for a signal generator ws for generating an RF carrier wave. At least that is my understanding.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #92 on: December 08, 2014, 02:02:18 am »
Back in the day,we had RF Signal Generators & Audio Signal Generators.

"Function Generator" was not in general use as a term until they became common in the late '70s,early'80s.
A thing that produced sawtooth waveforms was called a "Sawtooth Generator"---if it produced square waves.it was a Square wave Generator"& so on.
On that basis,they were all "Signal Generators",but the term was usually reserved in common usage,for the RF & AF ones.
 

Offline LEDAero

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2014, 07:13:32 am »
Now, why do I need a signal generator?
If you have to ask then you don't need a signal generator.

That's what I thought.

Now I'm jonesing after a SMD solder/rework station...
 

Offline LEDAero

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2014, 09:27:52 am »
Electronics these days revolves heavily around microcontrollers. Get an Arduino just because there is so much material and ideas available for them.

Get a solderless breadboard and pack of male-male wires. You can also buy short wires with prestripped ends. Or ask the nearest telephone technician you pass in the street for a handfull of solid copper wire offcuts. And a pack of 10 crocodile clip leads.

Every hobby has two types of people. Sailors and boat owners. Be a sailor. It's much more fun.

In my parts box: 33 Arduino Pro Mini; 29 Arduino Nano; 5 Arduino Mega2560; 18 Arduino Pro Micro; various flavours of Leaf, M3-Cortex, other embedded systems, half a dozen breadboards/protoboards, various ICs, bluetooth modules, 433MHz openlrs modules, sound modules, IR modules, all sorts of bits and bobs.

That's kinda what I do - the electronics side is being hauled along by the programming side.

I'm late to the game, but am making up for it by sticking 40+ hours a week into it ;)
 

Offline ptricks

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2014, 11:56:32 am »

Like, wtf is a 'bus pirate'?  (yes, I know - read back in the thread... but this post is meant for n00bs... but it looks more like a 'this is why I'M cool' thread for experienced electronics dudes... us learners got lost about page 2.

Bus pirate is a multi-protocol , multi use device that can be had for $20-30 . In addition to being able to read/write lots of protocols, it can do frequency generation, programming of chips, rs-232, and lots more.
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Bus_Pirate
 

Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2014, 06:34:45 pm »
just remember that my suggested lab is for beginners who need the basics. Sure an Arduino or a Bus Pirate are cool things but they are not the basics. If it takes an Arduino to get someone into electronics then great but basic tools are needed either way.

Any kind of oscilloscope is better than a Bus Pirate if it is one or the other. That is of course unless you NEED the Bus Pirate for a particular task.
 

Offline ptricks

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2014, 11:36:04 am »

Any kind of oscilloscope is better than a Bus Pirate if it is one or the other. That is of course unless you NEED the Bus Pirate for a particular task.

 An old storage scope would be much more useful since a lot of the electronics now that a beginner is using doesn't put out continuous waveforms and we all know what fun a spurious signal is on an analog scope.
 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2014, 09:37:11 pm »
...
and this being my first tool
http://www.amazon.com/100-500V-Pocket-Voltage-Detector-Screwdriver/dp/B00AFXJRFQ/ref=pd_sim_hi_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=0YR5T5SWW8VZSZ3KCR79
$5.54 for that POS? It has value of $0.00.

I would strongly discourage anyone from buying and using such type of pen testers - their are dangerous and ineffective. Get something safer (like non contact mains pen detector, although these are not perfect either) or multimeter with required safety ratings.
There are also variations of 2 probe voltage detectors with LEDs to indicate the voltage.

First time purchases as a newbie may not be the best because of 1) lack of knowledge and experience, 2) limited understanding of the needs and equipment capabilities, 3) influence of non EE people. Some electricians still use those dangerous pen style mains detectors.
---
My advice - make a list of 1) what you want to do, 2) what equipment you have, 3) what equipment you need to buy.
Buy equipment you need the most at the time while still managing the total budget. You will have most of what you need eventually.
I would suggest to buy additional equipment first before upgrading existing equipment of different category. For example, say you are on limited budget and have simple oscilloscope. You can either buy signal generator or upgrade your scope for the money. Buy SG in this case so you could have scope+SG combo instead of just having better scope.
 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: The $250 electronics lab, a suggested setup for beginners.
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2014, 09:56:03 am »
Yeah , Amazon price is very high, these screwdrivers are cheap where I live at around ~$1 USD. There is also similar screwdriver version with batteries (3V+transistor to light the LED) for similar amount.

Despite low price and popularity, I would say that these screwdrivers are even harder to use than DMM for beginners/non EE persons because of the misleading behaviour and unclear working principles. Answers you get of how these things work...:palm:

Major problems with pen testers: they only sometimes can show that the circuit is live (sometimes circuit may be live but not detected as such); false positives; non live circuit are not tested; no isolation for user; crap quality. In some situations these can "work", in others simply can't.
If I were pressed to get some kind of pen tester instead of DMM, I would choose two probe voltage detector stick with LEDs.
 


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