Want to start making my own circuit board where to start

[tautech]

Waxy label backing paper works great.
The toner releases easily so the transfer needs to bond it well to the PCB so it stays put.
These papers work very well in my HP 6MP at 600dpi but not so well in my 1200dpi Oki.

I wonder if you just peel the paper off? Or do you still soak it in water? Also, I'm curious what happens in the Oki which makes it not so good? Does it looks fine when it comes out of the printer, but the toner falls off/smudges before you can get it on the board? Or does it print fuzzy out of the gate? Perhaps certain kind of toners/printers don't stick well enough to this kind of paper.

It was very unlike me to not try it. I love it when I find cheap tools that work. When I bought it, I was kinda hoping it was going to be dextrin coated paper from china, or that maybe it was some kind of improved PnP, or that maybe it was some different technology altogether. I had a nagging fear that the waxy surface might degrade the accuracy of my printer. And I balked. I have broken 3 laser printers in the last decade trying things which seemed innocent enough at the time.

*The dumbest thing I did was try to print directly to a plastic mailer. The most recent thing was realizing I made an error about 3 seconds after hitting "print" on a 400 page document, and turning off the printer with the power switch to prevent it from printing. Yeah, that completely broke the printer. Next time I'll remove the paper.

It's either too much toner or the wrong brew to get sharp traces with the Oki and TBH I haven't tried to sort it for waxy backing paper. I've used a few types all saved from the bin and tucked away until I needed it. Some was from rolls of vinyl contact sheet, rolls of labels and others A4 sheet of labels.
I only changed to my Oki to reduce porosity for the ground pours and used highest density prints when maybe the Oki would give the result needed at 600dpi where the HP wouldn't. Need to try some more settings......
Any of these waxy backing papers provide a good medium for toner transfer if you can get the recipe right.

[Zero999]

*The dumbest thing I did was try to print directly to a plastic mailer. The most recent thing was realizing I made an error about 3 seconds after hitting "print" on a 400 page document, and turning off the printer with the power switch to prevent it from printing. Yeah, that completely broke the printer. Next time I'll remove the paper.

So you think the printer broke because it was turned of when it was just about to print? If that's really the case, then it's dumb design. I could understand it causing a paper jam or having to do some kind of reset process, then next it it was powered up but a power cut shouldn't break the printer.

[janoc]

Why are you guys so afraid of HCl and peroxide ? I have been using this etchant almost 30 years and I'm still alive and kicking ! 
My lab ( bathroom  ) is clean, no stains, nothing has corroded. Well, recently I switched to sodium persulfate. The main reason was, it is
odorless. The only downside is its short shelf life. 

Nobody is "afraid". However, there are much better etchants out there and, especially for a beginner with little understanding/experience in chemistry, it is difficult, even irresponsible, to recommend acid+peroxide as a good option. Out of the commonly available options it is the one with the largest potential for problems.

That nothing has corroded for you and you didn't make a big mess doesn't mean someone else won't.

[sasa]

Why are you guys so afraid of HCl and peroxide ?
...

Perhaps it better to clear up a bit why that is not at all good combination for beginners...

Highest precaution measures when use one of the strongest known non-organic acid is mandatory. No mistake is allowed.

Who do not know that HCl's aggregate state is gas, plays with death. And that does not know many beginners. HCl (gas) is easily dissolved in water, when we know it as HCl acid, i.e. muriatic acid.  Dissolved in water, we have extremely reactive Cl+ ions which will react with almost anything. If water is gone, it will returns to original aggregate state - gas. And that makes it extremely unstable and hazardous. Inhale gas and you will have one of the strongest known acid in your respiratory paths and lungs, serious tissue damage and death, depending on quantity of inhaled gas...

In short, the main problem with HCl acid and peroxide is that is extremely unstable. Finding clean 10% peroxide as well is quite a problem (otherwise can end up with mud and/or PCB garbage) and use with exact proportion. On the contrary, Ferric Chloride is stable, can be stored indefinitely when produced and easy to use, without any additional chemicals.

Regarding toxic waste. HCl acid and peroxide form Cupric (II) Chloride, while Ferric (III) Chloride produce Ferric (II) Chloride and Cupric (II) Chloride. These are extreme toxic and still highly corrosive. If not used further, must be neutralized by a base first, which again is extreme exothermic reaction and must be done with extreme caution. Only then dispose it by strict regulative most countries have...

Doing etching outside or in well ventilated room specifically made/adapted for that, alway wearing plastic gaggles, plastic gloves and have container with dissolved baking soda with  immediate access to tap water, is a minimum of precaution measures. 

Being well informed about exact process and all risks is mandatory.

[tggzzz]

Who do not know that HCl's aggregate state is gas, plays with death. And that does not know many beginners. HCl (gas) is easily dissolved in water, when we know it as HCl acid, i.e. muriatic acid.  Dissolved in water, we have extremely reactive Cl+ ions which will react with almost anything. If water is gone, it will returns to original aggregate state - gas. And that makes it extremely unstable and hazardous. Inhale gas and you will have one of the strongest known acid in your respiratory paths and lungs, serious tissue damage and death, depending on quantity of inhaled gas...

Let's keep things in perspective...

Your stomach is full of hydrochloric acid pH 1.5 to 3.5; that's what produces the burning sensation when you vomit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastric_acid

I've inhaled the fumes from concentrated HCl in a flask. Unpleasant, so I didn't take a second breath (and almost dropped the flask!). But no other ill effects.

[janoc]

Let's keep things in perspective...

Let's keep things in perspective - try to drink some 30% hydrochloric acid, as commonly sold and used, and you will see what happens to you. Hopefully you will survive it to tell the tale.

Concentration matters - the acid in your stomach is much less concentrated than the 30-36% one that is commonly sold - by about an order or even two of magnitude. pH is not a measure of how dangerous the acid is - e.g. lemon juice has pH of about 2 as well.

Moreover pH is a  logarithmic scale, so there is a huge difference between something having a pH 1 and something with pH 2.

And re inhaling the fumes and having no ill effects - hum, you may have had chemical burns in your lungs/trachea without even realizing it (HCl gas + water in the mucus -> liquid concentrated acid on your tissues). If one doesn't inhale a lot of it the body usually recovers over time.

However, inhale a bit more (not even directly from the bottle - it is enough to have the fumes around in sufficient concentration) and you have an edema which could be a life threatening situation because the burned tissues swell up and you will suffocate. Breathing this stuff is an incredibly stupid idea.

[tggzzz]

Let's keep things in perspective...

Let's keep things in perspective - try to drink some 30% hydrochloric acid, as commonly sold and used, and you will see what happens to you. Hopefully you will survive it to tell the tale.

Concentration matters - the acid in your stomach is much less concentrated than the 30-36% one that is commonly sold - by about an order or even two of magnitude. pH is not a measure of how dangerous the acid is - e.g. lemon juice has pH of about 2 as well.

Moreover pH is a  logarithmic scale, so there is a huge difference between something having a pH 1 and something with pH 2.

And re inhaling the fumes and having no ill effects - hum, you may have had chemical burns in your lungs/trachea without even realizing it (HCl gas + water in the mucus -> liquid concentrated acid on your tissues). If one doesn't inhale a lot of it the body usually recovers over time.

However, inhale a bit more (not even directly from the bottle - it is enough to have the fumes around in sufficient concentration) and you have an edema which could be a life threatening situation because the burned tissues swell up and you will suffocate. Breathing this stuff is an incredibly stupid idea.

That's a mixture of useful facts and strawman arguments. Yes I do appreciate your safety notes, but they aren't a reason to be too frightened of hydrochloric acid.

My father was content to bring the conc HCl home from the lab on public transport in a plastic container in his overcoat pocket, and give it to a 12yo to play around with. Now my father did know what he was doing; the acid that really frightened him was hydrofluoric acid. ISTR one of my uses for HCl was to make hydrogen sulphide; I stank the kitchen out several times.

Then at school when we were 14/15yo, we were given small pieces of metallic Na or K, I forget which, and told to describe what happens when we put it in water. Conc H₂SO₄ was readily available on every bench, and it is really entertaining to watch its reaction with granulated sugar. Our first A-level (16-18yo) chemistry lesson consisted of getting every  (>50) chemical out of the cupboard, and every student describing its smell; I never could distinguish between rats' piss and mice' piss We were warned, however, to be careful when cleaning the potassium cyanide out of our equipment, to make sure there was no acid in the sink.

Yes, we did slosh liquid mercury around trays. Yes, one of my friends' watches was noticeably more powerful that the schools' most powerful radioactive source - and was sent away to be destroyed at Harwell. Yes, when someone in front of me set the contents of his flask on fire, and calmly extinguished it using an asbestos tile, the teacher's only reaction was "well done".

Yes, we all survived.

No, we didn't have the apparatus described in some of my 1930s "Boy Electrician" book: fun things to do with your x-ray machine (but if your skin turns red you are probably using it too much).

[janoc]

That's a mixture of useful facts and strawman arguments. Yes I do appreciate your safety notes, but they aren't a reason to be too frightened of hydrochloric acid.

Care to point out the strawman? Because I somehow don't see it. However, you are providing plenty of anecdotal evidence about doing stupid stuff where you didn't get hurt mostly by blind luck. And yes, I have actually a lab training (not just the normal school stuff).

I am not saying one should be frightened of hydrochloric acid - there are many way worse chemicals. However recommending it to a newbie that has possibly seen chemistry last time when in school (and even that was just watching the teacher blow some shit up) is irresponsible when there are safer means available.

[KL27x]

@hero999 yeah, right. The printer was spooling i think. It hadnt even started printing yet.. i flipped off the power switch on the printer. But otoh, it was 2 years old...

...I am 99% sure this kind of thing will absolutely not break a printer that is still under warranty. There is an internal calendar which flips the kill switch at the right moment. Now, everything out of the ordinary can break the printer.

The funny thing is all the LEDs turn on when u flip it on for a split second. And then they all go dark. The manual lists several eror codes by led, and this is of course not one. It is my assumption this is the "play dead" function put in by Brother programmers.

It doesn't even bother me, anymore. It's expected. I just wish they'd hurry up and put a credit card swiper into the device. So instead of buying a new printer, I have the option to just buy this one back for another 2 years and get on with it.

[tggzzz]

Let's keep things in perspective...

Your stomach is full of hydrochloric acid pH 1.5 to 3.5; that's what produces the burning sensation when you vomit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastric_acid
...

First of all, I will not rely on informations from wikipedia.

Not unreasonable, but that reference was merely the first I googled. Here are some others, and you can very easily find this information (even in basic school biology textbooks!):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/add_aqa/proteins/proteinsrev5.shtml
http://www.med-health.net/function-of-hydrochloric-acid-in-stomach.html
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-dont-our-digestive-ac/

Author is usually unknown as well his credibility regarding the matter. I do not claim it is incorrect, but still, in this case I'm not gastroenterologist and relying on that claims to make any further conclusions is not quite helpful. I doubt it is "full of hydrochloric acid"

Yes, it is full of HCl - as well as enzymes; see references above or spend 30s googling for yourself.

, as there is many enzymes involving in digest process, which is quite complex process depending on what is actually digests,  quantity, size, etc...  Otherwise, anyone would be able to digest pure metal. But say no more, this is not related issue at all.

Secondly, relativistic approach on this matter is not allowed - no mistake is allowed. The only golden rule is : MAXIMUM SAFETY! Not only for you, but for your family, neighbours and his family... If that would be primary  reason, especially in industry (not just blindly running for profit) I doubt we will have any pollution (biological, chemical, radioactive, name it)...

That's more difficult. Firstly I agree that you must be very careful w.r.t. risks to anybody that just happens to be in the vicinity.

However, you cannot remove all risk, and to attempt to protect kids too much is counterproductive. It is best if you teach kids to recognise risk, assess risk, work out how to reduce risks to an acceptable extent.

That's what I did with my daughter, and although at the time she thought I was "wrapping her in cotton wool", she has later come to realise that isn't the case. Examples: I started sending her up trees at 10yo, then moved on to aerobatics at 15 and solo pilot at 16, backpacking around India at 12, a 2m deep hole in in the kitchen floor throughout childhood, broken knee skiing, etc. Consequently I wasn't worried when she bought a ticket to travel around Australia on her own at 18 (although I was glad she hadn't chosen Laos and Cambodia!)/

And the last, we are not infant, stupid and irresponsible kids and that is how we should behaves and point out to other safe(r)  alternatives...

Indeed, but there is a need to keep a perspective of which risks are most likely to hurt you badly. It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

Hence at my age merely living exposes me to 75-200 micromorts per day. ( https://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue55/features/risk/index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort ) That means it is rational for me to take more risks than I was younger.

Out of topic, but related to your "prank days" you have mentioned:

They weren't "pranks". The risks and consequences were assessed beforehand by knowledgeable people. With, as I noted, the notable exception of my taking one breath of the HCl fumes!

I recall when I was 6 years old that I was in hospital and that one kid in the same room  broke body thermometer (old glass and Mercury style) and immediately started to play with Mercury drops in the bed. I have noted that and told him not to do that, not to swallow it nor to put fingers on the face or mouth until I get nurse, as that is poison and he will badly get sick and may die... My parents teched me what is hazardous from early age and even I did not fully understood why, I have alway behaves responsible according that. Even kids do not understood fully concept of death in early age, they know very well what happens when get sick...

Understanding is of key importance to risk assessment.

Consider that I have had mercury in my mouth for 50 years. Medical opinion is that it should be left there unless the amalgam filling becomes loose.

Furthermore, some high school teachers are quite frustrated and incompetent persons, not capable enough for even what they do (not mentioned anything else), thus behaves irresponsible just as their infant students in some life dangerous situations. And some university professor are so vanity and proud on his Ph.D, usually combined with a "God complex", that make it ridiculously pathetic and easy to manipulate with, that many fully incompetent persons pass exams and get University degree with no real knowledge at all...

Shrug. They aren't the only incompetents!

Assess risk. Assess how to reduce risk. Keep risks in proportion.

[sleemanj]

One day I'm going to open a cotton wool factory, not cotton buds and swabs, I mean huge human sized cotton wool bales.  Then everybody can wrap themselves up and be nice and safe from the world.

[KL27x]

Practical safety tips:
30% fumes are potent. Mix it outdoors.
Acid into watta.
Safety glasses.
Bucket of water for emergencies. Gloves maybe. But bucket of water > gloves, imo. Dilution is the solution.

If u have the big gallon jug, it is often easier to use a turkey baster or large pippet to take some acid out of the bottle without pouring.

 Eye protection is the main concern.  Dont spill it all over ur crotch is probably a good idea. Dont transfer it into any other container. Dont mix it with bleach unless u want to poison yourself.

Oh, probably a bad idea to try to handle it on the ground. U dont want your face over an open bottle. If it sloshes, u can splash a droplet into an eye. And fumes.  And if ur sitting, u got the whole spilling it all over ur croth, thing. U want a sturdy table/bench of some kind u can stand upright to keep the stuff at arms reach.

[sasa]

Indeed, but there is a need to keep a perspective of which risks are most likely to hurt you badly. It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

Sure, but still (back to the issue), that is not explanation why is better to force pure beginner (with no experience at all in etching techniques) right to the HCl acid + peroxide. That is not answered precisely and unequivocally.

Ferric Chloride (also cheap) is stable, safer, easy to work with... all already pointed. While HCl acid + peroxide is quite opposite.

Answer is more than obvious to me.

[tggzzz]

Indeed, but there is a need to keep a perspective of which risks are most likely to hurt you badly. It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

Sure, but still (back to the issue), that is not explanation why is better to force pure beginner (with no experience at all in etching techniques) right to the HCl acid + peroxide. That is not answered precisely and unequivocally.

Ferric Chloride (also cheap) is stable, safer, easy to work with... all already pointed. While HCl acid + peroxide is quite opposite.

Answer is more than obvious to me.

I don't disagree with that - and nothing I have written implies otherwise.

[Alex Eisenhut]

And in any case, make sure your laser printer is actually able to print correctly. Apparently HP are still working on this. 

[sasa]

I don't disagree with that - and nothing I have written implies otherwise.

Sorry then for misunderstanding. Your every post implies to me that you have quite relativistic approach regarding HCl and recommends it to beginners. This is quite important healthy issue and may be quite confusing to beginners what to choose with different  suggestions.

I have also deleted recent message have nothing much regarding the issue, in order to clean up a bit this quite long thread as well.

Sorry again.

[tggzzz]

I don't disagree with that - and nothing I have written implies otherwise.

Sorry then for misunderstanding. Your every post implies to me that you have quite relativistic approach regarding HCl and recommends it to beginners.

No problem.

I've never used HCl for etching PCBs; ferric chloride has been sufficient for me. I do think caution is required and that beginners should be made aware of the possible dangers.

OTOH, HCl is readily detectable(!), the natural instinct will be to rapidly move away it, and unless you are careless enough to spill and leave some in contact with your skin, it is unlikely to do you too much harm. Hence I don't fear HCl - but do treat it with respect.

What do I fear? Botulism in pre-packaged foods. HF (surprisingly nasty stuff). 400mW BluRay lasers used for etching on reflective surfaces without being completely enclosed. Death cap and destroying angel. Why? Because they are undetectable until after the damage is done, and they can damage other people.

This is quite important healthy issue and may be quite confusing to beginners what to choose with different  suggestions.

I have also deleted recent message have nothing much regarding the issue, in order to clean up a bit this quite long thread as well.

Sorry again.

I don't see any need for you to apologise.

As far as I can see, all your posts were written with the best intentions - all that has happened is that we have placed differing emphasis on certain aspects of the subject being discussed. It is not a case that I/you are right and you/I are wrong. Hopefully the OP will learn from our discussion and be in a better position to make their own informed choice; good

Personally I must admit to disliking deleting messages unless they are actively dangerous or actively offensive. I don't think yours fall into either category

[M4trix]

OK, but what about OP ( Beamin ) ? He's not responding. Probably you scared him with this acid debate.   

[KL27x]

Nah. He's probably building a super computer, already. While we sit around in forum circle jerk.

It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

I think it's important to concentrate on irreversibly damaging risks. Concentrated HCl can scar your cornea pretty quick. If a large spill happens, (and who has never spilled anything?), it could cause some bad burns, if you don't have a large quantity of water immediately available.

OTOH, for those of us who handle HCl, frequently, it is now an everyday risk. We might forget there are certain things we automatically do which make it relatively safe for us to handle.

I remember having quite a hard time managing it the first few times I used it. And it's because I did it completely wrong.  No bench. No pipette. Managing a full-to-brim gallon jug with no bench and trying to get it into shallow glass tray without splashing, and all while holding my breath b/c I'm doing it hunched over the ground, putting me in the fume-zone. It was wake-you-up dangerous. With the right tools, it's not even a thang. If I managed to burn my eye because I was too excited to make a board to wait for the right equipment, it would have been a shame. It's easy to take it for granted, in hindsight.

[tggzzz]

Nah. He's probably building a super computer, already. While we sit around in forum circle jerk.

It is human nature to downplay the importance of everyday risks, and to concentrate on rare risks.

I think it's important to concentrate on irreversibly damaging risks.

Agreed, particularly if there are no early-warnings that "here there be danger". In my experience, HCl fumes were a sudden early-warning jolt of reality!

Concentrated HCl can scar your cornea pretty quick. If a large spill happens, (and who has never spilled anything?), it could cause some bad burns, if you don't have a large quantity of water immediately available.

OTOH, for those of us who handle HCl, frequently, it is now an everyday risk. We might forget there are certain things we automatically do which make it relatively safe for us to handle.

Agreed. Assessing, understanding and containing risk is very important. But I try to minimise the number of times I "just say no" by restricting them to the occasions when the benefits are insufficient.

An example of this... When my daughter was learning to fly gliders, one old instructor that had started out in pointy-jets 50 years ago, said "you have to expect to lose a few [students]"[1]. Some people would have been horrified, but I merely grinned. I knew he was extremely safety conscious and extremely competent, and that I could entrust my daughter to him.

[1] e.g. on "low energy" approaches where you have to fly accurately or you will "spin in". Or when deliberately entering spins at ~1000ft so the aircraft has "departed from controlled flight" and is descending at ~100ft/s and to recover you have to dive harder at the ground.

I remember having quite a hard time managing it the first few times I used it. And it's because I did it completely wrong.  No bench. No pipette. Managing a full-to-brim gallon jug with no bench and trying to get it into shallow glass tray without splashing, and all while holding my breath b/c I'm doing it hunched over the ground, putting me in the fume-zone. It was wake-you-up dangerous. With the right tools, it's not even a thang. If I managed to burn my eye because I was too excited to make a board to wait for the right equipment, it would have been a shame. It's easy to take it for granted, in hindsight.

I was woken up fast by breathing in the fumes.

I've also pippetted a small amount of acetone into my mouth because I didn't notice I was also entraining air. I spat the acetone out fast, with no known ill effects.

[janoc]

I've also pippetted a small amount of acetone into my mouth because I didn't notice I was also entraining air. I spat the acetone out fast, with no known ill effects.

Acetone is fairly tame if you don't swallow it or keep it in your mouth for too long. Not that I recommend such technique.

However, if you tried to do that with an acid, your experience would have been rather different. It may sound like a very stupid thing to do (and it is!) but I have seen a lot of even highly trained people suck acids and such into a glass pipette using their mouths instead of getting one with the balloon at the end 

[tggzzz]

I've also pippetted a small amount of acetone into my mouth because I didn't notice I was also entraining air. I spat the acetone out fast, with no known ill effects.

Acetone is fairly tame if you don't swallow it or keep it in your mouth for too long. Not that I recommend such technique.

However, if you tried to do that with an acid, your experience would have been rather different. It may sound like a very stupid thing to do (and it is!) but I have seen a lot of even highly trained people suck acids and such into a glass pipette using their mouths instead of getting one with the balloon at the end 

Indeed. Doing that with acetone was stupid/dangerous enough!

And your point about highly trained people is valid in many contexts. My favourite example is that, although gliding is pretty safe, about 10% of top competitive pilots have killed themselves by pushing the envelope too far.

[Beamin]

I like HCl because there's no toxic waste. But are there some methods this won't work with?

Umm, what do you mean by "no toxic waste"? Aka copper compounds, very acidic and corrosive etchant, bad corrosive (and very nasty, possibly lethal if inhaled!) fumes are not toxic enough for you? Compare that with the other etchants - actually out of the common stuff the acid+peroxide combo comes out as the worst one, mainly because of the high acidity necessitating neutralization before disposal and the fumes (the copper compounds are about the same with all the etchants). I would say you  should do your research on this first before you make such claim.

The disadvantages of using HCl as etchant are well documented, even on this forum. I am not going to rehash them. Do a research on trace undercutting and you will see right away. It is a very poor quality etchant for a reason.

I'm currently working on a BS in organic chem so when I do my actual home work does that count as "doing my home work"? 

When I say less toxic it means I can safely convert or dispose of the waste at home. HCl when poured down the drain gets diluted. HCl can be used to unclog drains. 92% sulfuric acid is often sold as drain opener.

What you don't want is heavy metals dissolved in solution then pour them down the drain. I can recover the copper from used HCl in some fun experiments or make other compounds out of it. HCl is a fuming acid but if you have been around it you will see why you wouldn't breathe in the fumes: getting just a little bit of the fumes in your nose is quite unpleasant and your body will just stop breathing it in. Plus I just like dissolving things with acid. I put a circuit board in HCl for a week and it made several color changes before leaving just the board and turning the components into "sand" at the bottom of the container. Not much was left except the wrapping of the caps and some plastic.

[M4trix]

Looks like @Beamin isn't afraid of HCl after all. Actually, he's doing weird things with it. 
Well, the conclusion is: ferric chloride lobbyists has lost the debate ! 

[sasa]

Looks like @Beamin isn't afraid of HCl after all. Actually, he's doing weird things with it. 
Well, the conclusion is: ferric chloride lobbyists has lost the debate ! 

This is not about winning or losing, but about maximum safety - not only Beamin (who did not mentioned the "minority fact" that he studding chemistry) reads this thread. I do not regret a bit spent some time in this thread writing some words of extreme caution.

It was actually not rare accidents when trucks with tanks of HCl are turned over on highways or leaks from industrial plants. The whole wide area is alarmed and brief actions are performed for recovery. Sadly, that is not the case with other types of pollution, which kills quite slowly.