Author Topic: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?  (Read 26796 times)

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Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2016, 07:58:20 pm »

I like a lot about America, but the electrical system is a teeny bit scary.

Hi

In a residential environment, pretty much nothing made in the last 50 years runs in conduit or metal jacketed cable (it went out when I was a kid). The default assumption is that you have a ground wire in the (plastic jacket) cable and you use it. Along the way they figured out that wire nuts are not a good idea for grounds. You now have to use a copper crimp.

So that all sounds simple right?

Well not so much.

Electrical rules and regs are the province of the local town hall. There are layers on top of that at the state and federal level, but most of it comes at a very local level. What you can do in this town, may or may not be what you can do (get away with) in the next town. Because of this, you can see some really odd stuff.

The next layer is that you may or may not be able to work on your own home. When working on your own home, you may or may not be required to get it inspected. Depending on the inspector, what gets inspected may or may not have a lot of relation to the rules.

Scared yet?

Ok so, next time I'm at the 90 year old mother in law's house maybe I'll shoot some pictures. It's been re-wired multiple times. In some cases I suspect that the choice of materials was based on the scrap heap at the local steel plant. Each time I'm there I hack a way at a bit more of it. Each time I come back ... somebody else has "improved" things a bit. I never seem to get ahead.

Did I mention the "grandfather clause?". More or less, for certain things, you only need to comply with the rules as they existed when the house was built. If your farm house is the original as chartered by somebody named "King Charles" that clause may cover a lot more than wires. Yes I had neighbors that were covered under that particular rule from Charles II. They also had the right to do a number of odd things related to hunting and fishing.

Lots of twists and turns ....

Bob
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2016, 08:03:59 pm »
Hi

According to the original post, the light pulls up to 16A continuous. If it does not already have a 20A plug on it, that raises some significant questions about the basic design of the light.

Bob

Whoops!!  Not having read from the beginning of the thread for a while, I forgot that point and was basing my comments on the vacuum cleaner mentioned more recently.  Since we're referring to the light, in the immortal words of Emily Litella - Never mind...  If the light is drawing over 15A, then it should definitely be fitted with a 5-20P to prevent it from being plugged into a 15A branch circuit, if nothing else.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2016, 08:21:21 pm »
Hi

According to the original post, the light pulls up to 16A continuous. If it does not already have a 20A plug on it, that raises some significant questions about the basic design of the light.

Bob

Whoops!!  Not having read from the beginning of the thread for a while, I forgot that point and was basing my comments on the vacuum cleaner mentioned more recently.  Since we're referring to the light, in the immortal words of Emily Litella - Never mind...  If the light is drawing over 15A, then it should definitely be fitted with a 5-20P to prevent it from being plugged into a 15A branch circuit, if nothing else.

-Pat

Hi

I seem to vaguely recall something about branch current on a circuit. A number like 80% comes to mind. If I'm not hallucinating (again ...  I swear I took those meds ... :) ) that would suggest that a light with a load current of over 12 A or 1440 W should have a 20A plug on it. Could be 90%. I very much doubt it's 100%....

The regs are always fun to read, but I think that's what this:

           The total cord- and plug-connected load must not exceed 80% of the receptacle rating [210.21(B)(2)].

Is talking about. If it's not going at it directly, it is hitting it indirectly.

Bob
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2016, 08:44:24 pm »
Along the way they figured out that wire nuts are not a good idea for grounds. You now have to use a copper crimp.
Heh, I was just watching someone use a wire nut because two ground (#14?) wires don't fit in a US outlet. Yep, a crimp sounds better.

Quote
Electrical rules and regs are the province of the local town hall.

Ah, that would explain a lot, I wouldn't trust my local council to lick envelopes.

For something that is all basically the same technology I'd expect some kind of Federal? standard, but that sort of presupposes that the people at Federal level are any better than the the local council, (I gather common core education has its critics).

Maybe it just needs some American innovation in socket design?
Naturally I'm going to favour something I'm used to, but British sockets do seem to be more robust and easier to wire?

Although amazingly our Consumer units were, up until Jan 2016, allowed to be made of non fire retardant plastic, whereas American ones are all metal. I don't know why we screwed that one up so badly  :(

Quote
The next layer is that you may or may not be able to work on your own home.

We have that now, it's patronising, but then looking at my Father in Law, it is essential for humanity.
But then Australians are not allowed to change a lightbulb or cable an office with Cat5  :palm:


Quote
Did I mention the "grandfather clause?".

I think everyone in the UK kind of accepted that our rubber wiring had to go, and plug in fuses were outdated when GFI's were so cheap. That was probably a golden time to be an electrician.
 

Offline tommygdawgTopic starter

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2016, 08:50:17 pm »
Xplode -

re your #4 suggestion about buying a 20A cord end - by that are you suggesting a replacement plug for the cord?  If so, wouldn't a 20A unit (here in North America) be a NEMA 5-20P, with the neutral blade at 90 degrees relative to the hot (the 'winking' plug) to prevent it being plugged in to a 15A receptacle?  If replacing the plug is what you're suggesting, I'd think he'd be better off with a good quality 15A one, otherwise unless he has 20A receptacles he won't be able to plug it in anywhere.

Everything else I wholeheartedly agree with, especially about not cheaping out on the receptacles.  Spend a few bucks each and get good ones - this is not the place to use things from the 99 cent store!

-Pat

Hi

According to the original post, the light pulls up to 16A continuous. If it does not already have a 20A plug on it, that raises some significant questions about the basic design of the light.

Bob


I should say that the lamp draws more around 14A continuous when at full power and after having warmed up. the 16A figure was a high end that I was using to give some leeway. It probably does draw more around 16 or higher though when first striking the bulb since it's a discharge lamp and will occasionally trip 15A circuits in the house when I first turn on the ballast.

The thoughts here have been incredibly helpful. I'm convinced that it's the plug off the ballast that's causing heating issues. I've tried it in numerous outlets for lengthy times and all have slightly warmed after running the light for a couple of hours. Using the IR thermometer I read about probably 10-13F raise in temperature from ambient room temp on the wall socket.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2016, 09:06:24 pm »
Xplode -

re your #4 suggestion about buying a 20A cord end - by that are you suggesting a replacement plug for the cord?  If so, wouldn't a 20A unit (here in North America) be a NEMA 5-20P, with the neutral blade at 90 degrees relative to the hot (the 'winking' plug) to prevent it being plugged in to a 15A receptacle?  If replacing the plug is what you're suggesting, I'd think he'd be better off with a good quality 15A one, otherwise unless he has 20A receptacles he won't be able to plug it in anywhere.

Everything else I wholeheartedly agree with, especially about not cheaping out on the receptacles.  Spend a few bucks each and get good ones - this is not the place to use things from the 99 cent store!

-Pat

Hi

According to the original post, the light pulls up to 16A continuous. If it does not already have a 20A plug on it, that raises some significant questions about the basic design of the light.

Bob


I should say that the lamp draws more around 14A continuous when at full power and after having warmed up. the 16A figure was a high end that I was using to give some leeway. It probably does draw more around 16 or higher though when first striking the bulb since it's a discharge lamp and will occasionally trip 15A circuits in the house when I first turn on the ballast.

The thoughts here have been incredibly helpful. I'm convinced that it's the plug off the ballast that's causing heating issues. I've tried it in numerous outlets for lengthy times and all have slightly warmed after running the light for a couple of hours. Using the IR thermometer I read about probably 10-13F raise in temperature from ambient room temp on the wall socket.

Hi

If it's not a 20A plug, it should be. Same thing with the wire to the plug. If it's 14 GA, it should be heavier. This sounds a lot like a lamp that was "upgraded" from a lower power design. The manufacturer either didn't think things through or they realized that a 20A plug would nuke sales ....either way ... not good.

Bob
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2016, 09:36:31 pm »
...

Electrical rules and regs are the province of the local town hall. There are layers on top of that at the state and federal level, but most of it comes at a very local level. What you can do in this town, may or may not be what you can do (get away with) in the next town. Because of this, you can see some really odd stuff.

...

Lots of twists and turns ....

Bob

In my limited experience (pulling permits and rewiring my own house during a renovation), wiring codes are based on the NEC (National Electrical Code), with major revisions published about every three years if memory serves), which is supposed to by and large set minimum standards.  Local jurisdictions can then tweak these standards for their use, but I believe that that tweaking is mostly to tighten rather than loosen the regs, though there are exceptions to this.  One that I know if is that at the time of my work, my town followed the 2005 NEC.  A literal reading of the NEC said that ALL circuits that feed outlets in bedrooms (receptacles, lighting, wired smoke alarm) must be AFCI protected (Art. 210.12).  Local regs allowed the lighting and smoke alarm circuits to be protected by a standard breaker, as long as they served only that purpose and could not otherwise be connected to.

And there are definitely a lot of twists and turns!

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2016, 09:47:41 pm »
...

Electrical rules and regs are the province of the local town hall. There are layers on top of that at the state and federal level, but most of it comes at a very local level. What you can do in this town, may or may not be what you can do (get away with) in the next town. Because of this, you can see some really odd stuff.

...

Lots of twists and turns ....

Bob

In my limited experience (pulling permits and rewiring my own house during a renovation), wiring codes are based on the NEC (National Electrical Code), with major revisions published about every three years if memory serves), which is supposed to by and large set minimum standards.  Local jurisdictions can then tweak these standards for their use, but I believe that that tweaking is mostly to tighten rather than loosen the regs, though there are exceptions to this.  One that I know if is that at the time of my work, my town followed the 2005 NEC.  A literal reading of the NEC said that ALL circuits that feed outlets in bedrooms (receptacles, lighting, wired smoke alarm) must be AFCI protected (Art. 210.12).  Local regs allowed the lighting and smoke alarm circuits to be protected by a standard breaker, as long as they served only that purpose and could not otherwise be connected to.

And there are definitely a lot of twists and turns!

-Pat

Hi

It's local politics. Nothing ever apples in all cases :)

One place I lived, the county (not the town) had never bothered to pass a building code. Oddly enough there was no default state code at that time either. The net result was that once you crossed the town line it was "anything goes". Yes, it was a thinly populated county and I doubt they had the staff or systems to do much more than they did. Really low taxes out in the county though .... i have no idea how anybody got insurance under those conditions.

Bob
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2016, 09:51:58 pm »
In the city of Chicago, the electrical code still requires metal conduit or equivalent for house wiring, and all industrial wiring that I have seen is in conduit.  Similarly, GFIs are required in kitchens, bathrooms, outdoor outlets, etc.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2016, 10:02:53 pm »
Along the way they figured out that wire nuts are not a good idea for grounds. You now have to use a copper crimp.

If it's not good enough for ground, it's not good enough for anything.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2016, 10:08:30 pm »
Along the way they figured out that wire nuts are not a good idea for grounds. You now have to use a copper crimp.

If it's not good enough for ground, it's not good enough for anything.

Hi

The issue is fault current in the event of a lightening strike. The supply leads are not expected to deal with that. Same issue as bonding to a ground rod.

Bob
 

Offline djacobow

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2016, 10:45:18 pm »
Electrical rules and regs are the province of the local town hall. There are layers on top of that at the state and federal level, but most of it comes at a very local level. What you can do in this town, may or may not be what you can do (get away with) in the next town. Because of this, you can see some really odd stuff.

In my limited experience (pulling permits and rewiring my own house during a renovation), wiring codes are based on the NEC (National Electrical Code), with major revisions published about every three years if memory serves), which is supposed to by and large set minimum standards.


Just to amplify for our international forum members, it's worth explaining the US system, which might seem strange to them. Our government is federated. That word actually means something, with both good and bad implications. To a first approximation, it means that the federal government can't do things that it isn't specifically allowed to do under the constitution. And yeah, building codes fall in that category.

There is no national building code.

The National Electric Code (NEC) is not a law, but a document created and maintained by the National Fire Protection Association, a private nonprofit organization. What gives the NEC the force of law is that governments that have appropriate jurisdiction (states, counties, cities) adopt it. As of now, the NEC is law in all 50 states having been adopted by /their/ legislatures. Furthermore, counties and cities can add their own stuff. Note, however, that given that the states have adopted it as law, a local government cannot UN-adopt the NEC. Sh*t flows downhill, as it were.

In actuality, the federal government does often find ways to force its way even when it does not have strict jurisdiction. For example, they can withhold related or unrelated funding. They did this with the national speed limit. The feds had no right to set a national speed limit, so they instead said "ye shall set your speed limit at 55 lest we withdraw highway funding." Sometimes these carrot and stick approaches are challenged in the courts, and outcomes have gone both ways. In this case, it stuck, but eventually was repealed in 1995 through the normal political process.

Someone brought up insurance. I think this is also a major unifying factor in setting codes, and probably has more influence than the federal government in such matters. If they won't insure it, you probably won't want to build it.

I personally have mixed feelings about the NEC. On the face, it's almost certainly a very good thing overall, having saved many a structure from destruction. However, it grows every three years, and I strongly suspect they are chasing smaller and smaller returns (in terms of avoided fires) with ever more expensive interventions (like AFCI). The organizations most likely to show up to meetings (and to be on the board) to advocate for something new are: electricians, manufacturers, fire departments, and insurance companies -- all of which are in a position to suggest new expensive interventions and shift the costs of same onto someone else (builders, homeowners).
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2016, 11:05:14 pm »
Along the way they figured out that wire nuts are not a good idea for grounds. You now have to use a copper crimp.

If it's not good enough for ground, it's not good enough for anything.

Hi

The issue is fault current in the event of a lightening strike. The supply leads are not expected to deal with that. Same issue as bonding to a ground rod.

Bob

I don't see where surviving a lightning strike can come into the equation for such small conductors.

 :-//

There's a lot of very strange ideas in the NEC.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2016, 12:07:39 am »
If a wire nut opens up in a line or neutral connection, it's a nuisance but does not remove the safety ground from the entire system.
In Chicago, the code requires a very firm clamp to the incoming water line near where it enters the building.  The connection in my house is somewhat redundant:  a large wire inside a 3/4" conduit, both of which connect to a clamp at the water pipe.  There is also a required connection from the outside meter, through a similar connection, to a ground rod immediately below the meter.
Having traveled abroad, and seen much weaker connections in some benighted countries, I did not argue with the electrician when he updated my house wiring last year.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2016, 12:13:36 am »
If a wire nut opens up in a line or neutral connection, it's a nuisance but does not remove the safety ground from the entire system.

Except for the fire hazard..

I understand the risks of a lost ground; I do not see the relevance of lightning strikes which are as likely to vaporise the WIRE on a small final circuit.

A properly installed lightning rod is a much better investment than yet another termination method for conductors which can't be expected to survive lightning in the firstplace.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2016, 12:19:55 am »
If the loose line wire hits the conduit or outlet box, it should trip the circuit breaker.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2016, 12:29:13 am »
If a wire nut opens up in a line or neutral connection, it's a nuisance but does not remove the safety ground from the entire system.

Except for the fire hazard..

I understand the risks of a lost ground; I do not see the relevance of lightning strikes which are as likely to vaporise the WIRE on a small final circuit.

A properly installed lightning rod is a much better investment than yet another termination method for conductors which can't be expected to survive lightning in the firstplace.


Hi

A high current pulse generates heat. That is why you don't use solder or something like that on a ground system. A wire nut is not as good at high temperatures as a crimp. If the wire vaporizes ... sure you have an issue. If the strike induces a pulse (which is far more likely) you get a hot spot.

Bob
 

Offline forrestc

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2016, 12:31:10 am »
You are kind of forced to use those bulky cable nuts to terminate wires instead of terminating them into the socket because they are screw-downs that can only carry one wire.
Then having to wrap electrical tape around the outside just in case?
Then having to work out if I still need a ground wire by guessing if the wiring is running in metal conduit or not. Eeek

Not sure which video you watched.

A few points:

Ground wire is required no matter what.  Conduit, or not.

In new wiring, every box gets all of the grounds crimped together with a crimp ring, then pushed in the back of the box, with a wire hanging out for the outlet.  With the crimp ring and the appropriate tool, this becomes *very* solid connection wise.   Generally the wire hanging out for the outlet is one of the wires that has been passed through the crimp ring.

Then each set of current carrying conductors (i.e. hot and neutral) are tied together with compression connectors (aka wire nut).  When used properly (and most laymen don't know how to use them properly), a wire nut is safe, and requires no additional electrical tape anywhere. 

When you're done, you have the 'permanent' wiring in the back of the box, and three wires hanging out of the front of the box for the receptical.  The permanent wiring is never messed with again, and the pigtails are used to connect to the receptical.

When done this way, it's safe and not a problem. 
 

Offline forrestc

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2016, 12:53:32 am »
A high current pulse generates heat. That is why you don't use solder or something like that on a ground system. A wire nut is not as good at high temperatures as a crimp. If the wire vaporizes ... sure you have an issue. If the strike induces a pulse (which is far more likely) you get a hot spot.

I agree with what you said here, except I think that wire nuts generally have a bad wrap because people use them incorrectly.   I think this is because the perception is that the metal in the wire nut is supposed to somehow help with the electrical connection.   In reality, the purpose of wire nut is to compress the wires together together tightly.   A correctly applied wire nut will result in a mechanical connection which is often not even reliant on the nut itself anymore to make a good electrical connection, other than perhaps to help keep the joint mechanically stable.  The problem is that most people don't even come close to tightening them enough.

Hint:  If someone says proper application of a wire nut *requires* electrical tape to keep them on, they probably don't know what they're doing.   My experience is that every time that I've seen taped wire nuts, none of them are tight enough and they're a fire waiting to happen.



 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2016, 01:25:27 am »
A high current pulse generates heat. That is why you don't use solder or something like that on a ground system. A wire nut is not as good at high temperatures as a crimp. If the wire vaporizes ... sure you have an issue. If the strike induces a pulse (which is far more likely) you get a hot spot.

I agree with what you said here, except I think that wire nuts generally have a bad wrap because people use them incorrectly.   I think this is because the perception is that the metal in the wire nut is supposed to somehow help with the electrical connection.   In reality, the purpose of wire nut is to compress the wires together together tightly.   A correctly applied wire nut will result in a mechanical connection which is often not even reliant on the nut itself anymore to make a good electrical connection, other than perhaps to help keep the joint mechanically stable.  The problem is that most people don't even come close to tightening them enough.

Hint:  If someone says proper application of a wire nut *requires* electrical tape to keep them on, they probably don't know what they're doing.   My experience is that every time that I've seen taped wire nuts, none of them are tight enough and they're a fire waiting to happen.

Hi

Odd you should mention tape.

I'm pretty much convinced that my whole house was done as part of an apprentice training project. Here I see tape, not because the wires are not tight. I see it because they stripped them a bit to far ....

Bob
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2016, 02:01:19 am »
If a wire nut opens up in a line or neutral connection, it's a nuisance but does not remove the safety ground from the entire system.

Except for the fire hazard..

I understand the risks of a lost ground; I do not see the relevance of lightning strikes which are as likely to vaporise the WIRE on a small final circuit.

A properly installed lightning rod is a much better investment than yet another termination method for conductors which can't be expected to survive lightning in the firstplace.


Hi

A high current pulse generates heat. That is why you don't use solder or something like that on a ground system. A wire nut is not as good at high temperatures as a crimp. If the wire vaporizes ... sure you have an issue. If the strike induces a pulse (which is far more likely) you get a hot spot.

Bob

I know Ohm's law, yes.

If a wire nut is so poor a connection that it would fail so easily before the wire does, it is unsuitable for any task, ground or live.

Crimping is actually considered unsuitable for solid-core wires of any reasonable size by most standards.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2016, 02:08:26 am »
If a wire nut opens up in a line or neutral connection, it's a nuisance but does not remove the safety ground from the entire system.

Except for the fire hazard..

I understand the risks of a lost ground; I do not see the relevance of lightning strikes which are as likely to vaporise the WIRE on a small final circuit.

A properly installed lightning rod is a much better investment than yet another termination method for conductors which can't be expected to survive lightning in the firstplace.


Hi

A high current pulse generates heat. That is why you don't use solder or something like that on a ground system. A wire nut is not as good at high temperatures as a crimp. If the wire vaporizes ... sure you have an issue. If the strike induces a pulse (which is far more likely) you get a hot spot.

Bob

I know Ohm's law, yes.

If a wire nut is so poor a connection that it would fail so easily before the wire does, it is unsuitable for any task, ground or live.

Crimping is actually considered unsuitable for solid-core wires of any reasonable size by most standards.

Hi

Well it's been pretty obvious from the start that you are not going to buy any wire nuts any time soon.:) Despite them being obviously an item that self destructs instantly, there are many billions of them happily doing the intended job over many decades. Odd how that works ....

Bob
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2016, 02:16:34 am »
Hi

Well it's been pretty obvious from the start that you are not going to buy any wire nuts any time soon.:) Despite them being obviously an item that self destructs instantly, there are many billions of them happily doing the intended job over many decades. Odd how that works ....

Bob

Well, seeing as I know of no reputable suppliers in the entire country who keep them.. I do have a standing request with a friend for a small assortment to put to actual tests next time he sends a package, though. I look forward to putting everyone's opinions, beliefs, and hearsay on the end of my welder and seeing what fails first.

I never actually said they're bad, I said if they're considered unsuitable for joining one conductor I cannot see why they're suitable for any other. If they're so bad they cannot be trusted for ground, why can they be trusted where they're actually exposed to current flowing and continual heating and cooling cyles? That's actually arguing in favour of them, or at least trying to be neutral..
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2016, 02:24:56 am »
Hi

Well it's been pretty obvious from the start that you are not going to buy any wire nuts any time soon.:) Despite them being obviously an item that self destructs instantly, there are many billions of them happily doing the intended job over many decades. Odd how that works ....

Bob

Well, seeing as I know of no reputable suppliers in the entire country who keep them.. I do have a standing request with a friend for a small assortment to put to actual tests next time he sends a package, though. I look forward to putting everyone's opinions, beliefs, and hearsay on the end of my welder and seeing what fails first.

I never actually said they're bad, I said if they're considered unsuitable for joining one conductor I cannot see why they're suitable for any other. If they're so bad they cannot be trusted for ground, why can they be trusted where they're actually exposed to current flowing and continual heating and cooling cyles? That's actually arguing in favour of them, or at least trying to be neutral..

Hi

Ok, we'll try this one more time:

If the roaring flames are raging through the house and they hit the plastic nut, it melts and shorts. The insulation on the mains wires also melts and shorts. That's all fine and pretty much expected. Through the raging inferno, the copper crimp sheath over the tightly twisted ground leads does not melt. The twisted ground leads can not come apart. The ground circuit out lasts the rest of the system as the fire rages on (as it should).

Bob
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Warm Outlets: How Warm is Too Warm?
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2016, 02:28:50 am »
Hi

Ok, we'll try this one more time:

If the roaring flames are raging through the house and they hit the plastic nut, it melts and shorts. The insulation on the mains wires also melts and shorts. That's all fine and pretty much expected. Through the raging inferno, the copper crimp sheath over the tightly twisted ground leads does not melt. The twisted ground leads can not come apart. The ground circuit out lasts the rest of the system as the fire rages on (as it should).

Bob

No connector in use that I am aware of uses the insulation to maintain contact, including wire nuts. Want to try again?
 


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