Author Topic: What is the different between American and European electric supply?  (Read 12845 times)

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Offline MerlysysTopic starter

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In North America we have both 110 and 220, the latter being for larger appliances. So is the American 220 identical to European 220?
This site says no...

Americans who have European equipment should not connect it to these outlets, since the phasing is wrong.
https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/why-no-standard-voltage/

By phasing do they mean frequency? (50 and 60 Hz)

Pictured is a NA panel. If scope probes are connected to L1 and L2 will the waveform shape be identical to if probes are instead connected to N and L1?

 

Offline richard.cs

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 12:15:28 pm »
They probably mean the frequency is wrong, or just don't know what they're talking about. Some but not all appliances are frequency sensitive. Actually increasing the frequency is generally less harmful than decreasing it so most stuff would just work.

The appliance will see a different voltage relative to ground, but that's fine, all European appliances are designed to be safe and functional with any supply that puts 230V +/-10% 50 Hz across the N and L1 wires, irrespective of which side is grounded (some of Europe uses non-polarised plugs) or if it's a centre-tapped supply or connected between two phases of a (legacy) 230 V phase-phase supply.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 12:24:19 pm »
It's not a technical article - it's more an historical one.

The use of the phrase "phasing" by the author is unclear.  They may be referring to line frequency, but "phasing" is not the right word at all.  The phasing for 240V in the USA has to be right - or you wouldn't get 240V.

From my observation, there may be issues with a higher line frequency, but they are often overstated...
They probably mean the frequency is wrong, or just don't know what they're talking about. Some but not all appliances are frequency sensitive. Actually increasing the frequency is generally less harmful than decreasing it so most stuff would just work.
 

Offline Mjolinor

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 01:23:38 pm »
That page has one or two facts and a whole pile of bolox.

Supply in the UK (and most of Europe) is either one phase AC 50Hz 230 volts WRT ground or three phase 230 volt WRT ground with the three phases being phased 120 degrees apart. That gives 400 volts phase to phase.

US supply is 110 WRT ground and in some installations it is biphase with two lives with 180 degree spacing giving a phase to phase of 220.

Japan has 100, 110, 120 and 240 single phase voltages depending on geographical location.

The reason for not connecting UK 230 volt stuff to two phases in the States is that you effectively make neutral 110 volts relative to ground and the appliances are designed to have neutral at ground potential or very close to it.

In the UK neutral is connected to the ground at the incoming cable termination for newer installations, there is usually the mother of all resistors at the MV / LV substation. This will be in the order of one ohm and will be the size of a typical garden shed connected between ground ( a nest of earth spikes) and the transformer output neutral.

The sum of any number of different phased, same frequency sine waves is always a sine wave.

 
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Online Zero999

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 01:43:34 pm »
In the UK neutral is connected to the ground at the incoming cable termination for newer installations, there is usually the mother of all resistors at the MV / LV substation. This will be in the order of one ohm and will be the size of a typical garden shed connected between ground ( a nest of earth spikes) and the transformer output neutral.
What are you on about? There is no resistor. The neutral is bonded directly to the earth conductor, with as lowest resistance, as possible. Quite often the neutral and earth share a conductor, until the entrance to the premises.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 02:01:10 pm »
The reason for not connecting UK 230 volt stuff to two phases in the States is that you effectively make neutral 110 volts relative to ground and the appliances are designed to have neutral at ground potential or very close to it.
This is not true at all. Only UK (type G), France (type F) and few others have polarized sockets. But I wouldn't count that live and neutral are wired properly. The rest of Europe (Type E) don't even have polarized sockets, and plugs are generally compatible with both type E and F, so there is not even much worth in polarization of French sockets. Polarization in UK sockets does not mean much as well, because most of appliances use removable power cable and can be used elsewhere with different cable. Also appliances which don't accept L an N wired both ways would be inherently unsafe and won't comply to safety standarts.
Quote
In the UK neutral is connected to the ground at the incoming cable termination for newer installations, there is usually the mother of all resistors at the MV / LV substation. This will be in the order of one ohm and will be the size of a typical garden shed connected between ground ( a nest of earth spikes) and the transformer output neutral.
Spreading even more blatant disinformation.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 02:11:39 pm by wraper »
 

Offline iainwhite

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 02:15:54 pm »
One observation:
The website "worldstandards.eu"  sound like an official standardization body or some such, but actually is operated by a Mr Conrad H. McGregor who is a campaigner for world standards in general.    I say treat with healthy skepticism (scepticism in the UK...)
 

Online coppice

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 02:19:12 pm »
In the UK neutral is connected to the ground at the incoming cable termination for newer installations, there is usually the mother of all resistors at the MV / LV substation. This will be in the order of one ohm and will be the size of a typical garden shed connected between ground ( a nest of earth spikes) and the transformer output neutral.
What are you on about? There is no resistor. The neutral is bonded directly to the earth conductor, with as lowest resistance, as possible. Quite often the neutral and earth share a conductor, until the entrance to the premises.
There isn't a resistor between neutral and ground, but there is often significant resistance. In UK installations you frequently see a volt or two between neutral and ground when the wiring is under high load. Inadvertent shorts between ground and neutral have caused fires in installations where there is nothing to pick up such shorts (i.e. no RCB). There isn't even a circuit breaker to limit the current when such a fault occurs.
 

Offline poorchava

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 02:22:49 pm »
Most of the mid- and eastern europe use mix of Type E and Type F sockets ("Schuko"). Most earthed plugs fit both standards (CEE 7/7). Obviously because of idiots doing the wiring counting on the live wire being on the left as it should according to standard is a really bad idea.

Personally I don't understand why countries use 110V. When compared to 240V system, using 110V doubles the current and quadruples power losses for the same conductor thereby increasing power losses in wiring and forcing people to use thicker wiring which are heavier and more expensive.
I love the smell of FR4 in the morning!
 

Offline Mjolinor

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 02:29:35 pm »

They no longer install resistors at the sub but there are still a lot installed. They are left over from pre PME systems where earth and neutral were separate conductors all the way from the substation. The UK system has been changing to PME for 30 years and as each network is changed earth spikes are fitted at each joint and only neutral and live are fed from the sub. Prior to that neutral and earth were not guaranteed to be at the same potential. The big resistor was to help prevent the earth potential rise under fault conditions. Neutral is classed as a "phase" wire when working on UK distribution networks.

There is no misinformation in my post. You can probably Google and prove all that I have said but do please do that before you tell me I am talking crap.



 

Online wraper

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 02:31:20 pm »
In the UK neutral is connected to the ground at the incoming cable termination for newer installations, there is usually the mother of all resistors at the MV / LV substation. This will be in the order of one ohm and will be the size of a typical garden shed connected between ground ( a nest of earth spikes) and the transformer output neutral.
What are you on about? There is no resistor. The neutral is bonded directly to the earth conductor, with as lowest resistance, as possible. Quite often the neutral and earth share a conductor, until the entrance to the premises.
There isn't a resistor between neutral and ground, but there is often significant resistance. In UK installations you frequently see a volt or two between neutral and ground when the wiring is under high load.
Voltage difference you see under load is nothing other than voltage drop on Neutral wire. Of course you won't see such voltage drop on Earth wire because there is basically no current flowing through it normally.
Quote
Inadvertent shorts between ground and neutral have caused fires in installations where there is nothing to pick up such shorts (i.e. no RCB). There isn't even a circuit breaker to limit the current when such a fault occurs.
I doubt this very much. All this would do is taking part of the load from Neurtal wire. And ground wire should be at least as beefy as live and neutral.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 03:14:41 pm by wraper »
 

Online wraper

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 02:41:51 pm »
There is no misinformation in my post. You can probably Google and prove all that I have said but do please do that before you tell me I am talking crap.
Please google it yourself and provide the link. Because my google-fu is not good enough to find it.
 

Online coppice

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 02:42:22 pm »
A good reference for this issue might be the Philipinnes, as for historical reasons they use 220V 60Hz power, but neither wire is close to ground. The power is actually +-110V, so its like the US 220V arrangement, but every appliance in the house runs on that phase split 220V 60Hz power. So, you see a far broader range of appliances being run from split phase power than you do in the US.

Most plug in appliances sold in the Philipinnes are the same as the appliance sold in other 220V markets, with just the mains plug selected for local use. A few 220V 50Hz appliances don't like the 60Hz power, so a special version might be need. Typically, the Korean (also 220V 60Hz, but with the two wires being live and neutral) version of the appliance is OK for the Philipinnes. In some cases where the appliance is designed to be wired in it will have been designed with an assumption about the live and neutral inlets always being the right way around. There might then be issues with the assumptions made in the appliance's design. I have experienced this with a large UPS and some large computer and telecoms equipment. Either a specially adapted version was supplied, or an isolation transformer was supplied by the vendor.

So, the bottom line is a few appliances need to specially allow for split phase 220V 60Hz power, but mostly a piece of European 220V 50Hz equipment works just fine.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 03:29:30 pm by coppice »
 

Offline Mjolinor

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 02:54:17 pm »
There is no misinformation in my post. You can probably Google and prove all that I have said but do please do that before you tell me I am talking crap.
Please google it yourself and provide the link. Because my google-fu is not good enough to find it.

Well there's yer problem. It aint my job to educate you, sorry. Generally if I want to know something I go out and find about it rather than insulting people by telling them they are wrong because I don't know something.
 
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Offline Mjolinor

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 03:00:26 pm »
A good reference for this issue might be the Philipinnes, as for historical reasons they use 220V 60Hz power, but neither wire is close to ground. The power is actually +-110V, so its like the US 220V arrangement, but every appliance in the house runs on that phase split 220V 60Hz power. So, you see a far broader range of appliances being run from split phase power than you do in the US.

Most plug in appliances sold in the Philipinnes are the same as the appliance sold in other 220V markets, with just the mains plug selected for local use. A few 220V 50Hz appliances don't like the 60Hz power, so a special version might be need. Typically, the Korean (also 220V 60Hz, but with the two wires being live and neutral) version of the appliance is OK for the Philipinnes. In some cases where the appliance is designed to be wired in it will have been designed with an assumption about the live and neutral inlets always being the right way around. There might then be issues with the assumptions made in the appliance's design. I have experienced with with a large UPS and some large computer and telecoms equipment. Either a specially adapted version was supplied, or an isolation transformer was supplied by the vendor.

So, the bottom line is a few appliances need to specially allow for split phase 220V 60Hz power, but mostly a piece of European 220V 50Hz equipment works just fine.

I have designed things for use on the Philippine networks and can honestly say it is the strangest thing ever. I have never seen an HV/LV transformer that is fed only one phase wire, relying on the ground to provide the return other than there. Mind you twice a day the poles were underwater so a good ground was never a problem. :)

I have also never seen,other than the Philippines, any utility take an un-insulated HV (11kv) wire and make a horizontal loop on top of the poles within which are the LV meters in order to stop theft.
 

Offline richard.cs

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 03:03:27 pm »
They no longer install resistors at the sub but there are still a lot installed. They are left over from pre PME systems where earth and neutral were separate conductors all the way from the substation. The UK system has been changing to PME for 30 years and as each network is changed earth spikes are fitted at each joint and only neutral and live are fed from the sub. Prior to that neutral and earth were not guaranteed to be at the same potential. The big resistor was to help prevent the earth potential rise under fault conditions. Neutral is classed as a "phase" wire when working on UK distribution networks.

There is no misinformation in my post. You can probably Google and prove all that I have said but do please do that before you tell me I am talking crap.

I've done a lot of work in LV distribution in the UK and I've never come across this. At MV (11 or 33 kV phase-phase) a resistor is normal between earth and the source transformer star point (which isn't distributed as all the transformers down to LV have delta primaries) to limit L-E fault currents on the MV network to a few thousand amps, but to my knowledge the same has never been common on LV in the UK. Historically pre-PME most supplies were either TT (earth rod) or TN-S, usually with copper conductors for L1, L2, L3 and N (sometimes an undersized N) and the lead sheath of the cable as E. The earth resistance might be a little higher than typical on PME but that's not due to an explicit resistor, it's simply that the lead sheath (or separate earth conductor in a few cases) had more resistance than the N in a modern system.

Voltage appearing between neutral and earth on a TT or TN-S relates to the voltage drop along the neutral, the earth resistance (maybe an ohm for TN-S, maybe a hundred for TT) doesn't come into it as that isn't where the current is flowing.

In PME/TNC-S where a single combined neutral-earth conductor runs from the substation to the customer intake where it then splits, the N-E voltage is usually much lower because there's less length where they are separate. It's normal for a few amps to flow in the customers earth conductor on these installations due to the N-E offset voltage under load but the earth conductors are sized for it. Very rarely a broken neutral-earth conductor in a PME system shunts enough load current into the customer earth terminal (and then into various earthed metalwork, especially metallic water mains which may be connected to someone else's PME earth terminal the other side of the break) to cause significant heating. I'm only aware of one fire caused by such but it's been a well-understood and much debated risk since the introduction of PME.
 

Online wraper

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 03:07:50 pm »
There is no misinformation in my post. You can probably Google and prove all that I have said but do please do that before you tell me I am talking crap.
Please google it yourself and provide the link. Because my google-fu is not good enough to find it.

Well there's yer problem. It aint my job to educate you, sorry. Generally if I want to know something I go out and find about it rather than insulting people by telling them they are wrong because I don't know something.
Nice. I tell you something dubious and you must believe it. If you cannot prove that I'm right, it's your problem  :palm:.
 
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Offline Mjolinor

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2017, 03:20:27 pm »
There is no misinformation in my post. You can probably Google and prove all that I have said but do please do that before you tell me I am talking crap.
Please google it yourself and provide the link. Because my google-fu is not good enough to find it.

Well there's yer problem. It aint my job to educate you, sorry. Generally if I want to know something I go out and find about it rather than insulting people by telling them they are wrong because I don't know something.
Nice. I tell you something dubious and you must believe it. If you cannot prove that I'm right, it's your problem  :palm:.

Sorry, I don't see that. I don't have a problem with you not believing me, I do find it a bit sad that you find it necessary to berate me for it but I am man enough to allow you that luxury if you deem it necessary.

The reason that I found this out was that I was researching power line communications back in the early 90s on a specific network in Kendal. The results were not as expected because of this resistor. We were getting signals where we should not have because I assumed that where we put the signal in was ground and it wasn't anywhere near whereas the receiving end some 500 metres away had ground and neutral bonded. I was taken into the sub and shown the wiring including this massive resistor that gave us so many problems.

 

Online coppice

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2017, 03:50:02 pm »
There isn't a resistor between neutral and ground, but there is often significant resistance. In UK installations you frequently see a volt or two between neutral and ground when the wiring is under high load.
Voltage difference you see under load is nothing other than voltage drop on Neutral wire. Of course you won't see such voltage drop on Earth wire because there is basically no current flowing through it normally.
Obviously.
Voltage difference you see under load is nothing other than voltage drop on Neutral wire. Of course you won't see such voltage drop on Earth wire because there is basically no current flowing through it normally.
Quote
Inadvertent shorts between ground and neutral have caused fires in installations where there is nothing to pick up such shorts (i.e. no RCB). There isn't even a circuit breaker to limit the current when such a fault occurs.
I doubt this very much. All this would do is taking part of the load from Neurtal wire. And ground wire should be at least as beefy as live and neutral.
I don't know the regulations where you are, but globally earth leads are typically thinner than the live and neutral. For example, in the UK houses are generally wired with what's called twin and earth cable. The type for a sockets circuit is 2.5mm^2 for the live and neutral, but only 1.5mm^2 for the earth wire. This sort difference in conductor size happens through the cabling heirarchy.

The fire hazard issue from massive unexpected earth currents is taken very seriously by people involved in fire safety. For example, the design of the original ethernet clamp on terminations for thick 10Mbps ethernet was extensively discussed, to ensure the design minimised any possibility of the barrier being breached by sloppy installation. Its not usually the heating effect in the cable itself that worries them. Its slightly resistive shorts, which can lead to a significant voltage drop + fairly high current in one tiny spot. If there are adjacent combustible materials you have a recipe for fire. Intermittent connections also have the potential for sparks to cause fires, even when the voltage difference is low.
 

Offline richard.cs

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2017, 05:04:37 pm »
The reason that I found this out was that I was researching power line communications back in the early 90s on a specific network in Kendal. The results were not as expected because of this resistor. We were getting signals where we should not have because I assumed that where we put the signal in was ground and it wasn't anywhere near whereas the receiving end some 500 metres away had ground and neutral bonded. I was taken into the sub and shown the wiring including this massive resistor that gave us so many problems.

That's interesting, was this definitely at LV? i.e. between the LV neutral (= star point of the 11kV/415V transformer) and earth?  Must be some odd legacy setup if that was in the public distribution network, but I am not sure why they'd do it unless this supply fed some specified piece of equipment or location that required limited fault currents. As I said it's normal to do this on MV and HV.
 

Offline Mjolinor

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2017, 05:12:58 pm »
The reason that I found this out was that I was researching power line communications back in the early 90s on a specific network in Kendal. The results were not as expected because of this resistor. We were getting signals where we should not have because I assumed that where we put the signal in was ground and it wasn't anywhere near whereas the receiving end some 500 metres away had ground and neutral bonded. I was taken into the sub and shown the wiring including this massive resistor that gave us so many problems.

That's interesting, was this definitely at LV? i.e. between the LV neutral (= star point of the 11kV/415V transformer) and earth?  Must be some odd legacy setup if that was in the public distribution network, but I am not sure why they'd do it unless this supply fed some specified piece of equipment or location that required limited fault currents. As I said it's normal to do this on MV and HV.

Absolutely sure it was LV. It may have been a specific modification for unknown reasons. The LV network went from MV/LV sub (11kv) to normal domestic / industrial supply but also to another NORWEB communication facility. I can see no reason for it being that way, it was a very old pre PME network but no other type of communications were ever used on it other than the stuff I was researching in the HF band. It had never had any of the earlier power line communication networks for SCADA using zero notch etc. I have never seen another on LV though was not told it was out of the ordinary at the time.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2017, 06:48:41 pm »
The reason that I found this out was that I was researching power line communications back in the early 90s on a specific network in Kendal. The results were not as expected because of this resistor. We were getting signals where we should not have because I assumed that where we put the signal in was ground and it wasn't anywhere near whereas the receiving end some 500 metres away had ground and neutral bonded. I was taken into the sub and shown the wiring including this massive resistor that gave us so many problems.

That's interesting, was this definitely at LV? i.e. between the LV neutral (= star point of the 11kV/415V transformer) and earth?  Must be some odd legacy setup if that was in the public distribution network, but I am not sure why they'd do it unless this supply fed some specified piece of equipment or location that required limited fault currents. As I said it's normal to do this on MV and HV.

Absolutely sure it was LV. It may have been a specific modification for unknown reasons. The LV network went from MV/LV sub (11kv) to normal domestic / industrial supply but also to another NORWEB communication facility. I can see no reason for it being that way, it was a very old pre PME network but no other type of communications were ever used on it other than the stuff I was researching in the HF band. It had never had any of the earlier power line communication networks for SCADA using zero notch etc. I have never seen another on LV though was not told it was out of the ordinary at the time.
Now you seem to be saying it was one odd installation, rather than the norm. In your previous post, you implied this is very common.

I don't seem why you were offended. No one insulted you at all. If you say something unbelievable, don't be surprised if people tell you it's wrong.
 

Offline Mjolinor

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2017, 06:55:41 pm »

I am not offended by anyone telling me I am wrong. What offends me is that no one has proven it not to be the case and plenty of people were a bit more than pointing out a mistake in their attitude.

I was not led to believe it was anything out of the ordinary and have no reason to expect it to be so, I cannot see any reason why it should be. It is what it is and that is fact. If it was unique I do not know of a valid reason why and I have no idea why I was not told. To my mind if it had been a one off I would have been told and would have chosen a different network for the research.

I will not comment on this again and if someone would like the post deleting then ask and I will do so.
 

Offline newbrain

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2017, 07:24:02 pm »
And here I am, repeating myself once again.

Split phase 220V is the norm in most of Rome and close areas, coming from a 120V conversion (in the '70s, if I remember correctly).
And if one measure any phase to PE it's ~132V, not 110, as what was done was distributing a second phase from a triphase system, with a 10% overvoltage.

All appliances work of course correctly and no plug has ever been polarized (in my memory), "Shuko" (called "Siemens" in Italy), CEI 23-50 S17 (a larger Europlug, usually with PE) and Europlugs.

Nowadays PE and "differential breakers" (RCCBs) protect the users and the equipment, but never, ever, assume you have a neutral and a live wire.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: What is the different between American and European electric supply?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 08:07:35 pm »

I am not offended by anyone telling me I am wrong. What offends me is that no one has proven it not to be the case and plenty of people were a bit more than pointing out a mistake in their attitude.

I was not led to believe it was anything out of the ordinary and have no reason to expect it to be so, I cannot see any reason why it should be. It is what it is and that is fact. If it was unique I do not know of a valid reason why and I have no idea why I was not told. To my mind if it had been a one off I would have been told and would have chosen a different network for the research.

I will not comment on this again and if someone would like the post deleting then ask and I will do so.
I don't see how deleting it would help anyone? Do you have any more information on the matter i.e. links?
 


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