Author Topic: Bought a Rigol DS1054Z Oscilloscope -true beginner- now learning  (Read 4490 times)

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Offline blueskull

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2017, 07:41:19 AM »
I'm an owner of 2 Owon scopes, and my impression is that they are really basic in features -- no fancy new features at all. Mines are very basic-- no decoding, no DPO, no LA, no nothing. Just a 100MHz, 1Gsps, 10Mpts scope and that's it.

I would say if you don't want to invest on another scope when you move on, consider a Rigol or Siglent, as it can satisfy your needs for quite a while. Rigol also has the benefit of being hackable.

Rigol scopes are slow, though. You don't get immediate (<200ms latency) UI response, which sucks. But for the price and hackability, you can't complain much.

With a small price bump, consider getting a Keysight EDUX1102A, and hack it to MSOX1102A with 100MHz option. Dave has a video documenting how to hack this thing. Keysight scopes are FAST, very fast, though DSOX1102A may not have as many features like DS1054Z, but the ease of use and smooth UI is worth it.
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2017, 07:48:12 AM »
Note that hacking the Keysight 1000X series is not yet trouble free from what I've seen. Research the relevant threads before going that route if your intent is to hack it. If you're going to use it as-is, it's a very nice scope and responsive.
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Offline Dutch RC

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2017, 03:21:45 PM »
I checked Ebay.nl Marktplaats.nl and asked on circuitsonline.nl

There's another video from him where he's using another scope and not that Fluke.

I think it's this one.


On one channel he's measuring the power after his led switch and on the other the output signal from the camera video wire, so I can't tell if I need isolated channels or not.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2017, 04:01:15 PM »
There's another video from him where he's using another scope and not that Fluke.

An Owon SDS family scope, I don't know exact model number. I guess is the new version of SDS7102 (they have the same part number, but upgrade external appearance over time).
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Offline Dutch RC

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2017, 04:27:49 PM »
He said it's a peaktech 1240.

I'll definitely have a look at how not to blow 500
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2017, 04:32:24 PM »
He said it's a peaktech 1240.

I'll definitely have a look at how not to blow 500

SDS6062 rebadge. The original SDS6062 is only $309 on Amazon ATM.
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Offline PA4TIM

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2017, 07:27:43 PM »
Quote
I checked Ebay.nl Marktplaats.nl and asked on circuitsonline.nl

You asked on CO if you could use a 50 dollar toy-scope kit. But for 50 euro's you can find plenty analog 10 to 20 MHz scopes.  Analog scopes are very fast realtime, they are only blind at the retrace. In a nutshell, the analog scope measures a voltage at time x, this signal is converted in a voltage that moves the beam. There is a very very short delay between the moment it is on the CRT and time x. There is a sawtooth voltage that moves the trace from left to right. This is not in steps but continue. At the end of the screen, the sawtooth voltage has to return to zero and that time it does not show data on the screen..

Besides that the scope does not show channel 1 and 2 at the same time. It switches between channels. This is the way most dual or more channel analog scopes work.  For even more realtime they made dual beam scopes ( you then have a dual beam, dual channel scope but they are rare) But an analog scope will show the signal only as long as it is really  there. So the jump from 0 to 12V from the switch is as long visible as the real time it takes. There is no easy way to capture that. (they used f.i. single shot and scope cameras for that.)

So an analog scope is not good for looking at one time events because it is to fast for your eyes and brain to measure the interval from the screen. A DSO is better for this.

A DSO is very blind most of the time. It measures at certain very short intervals. So it misses data between those steps. How often they do that, is the sample rate given in samples per second. Before visible on the screen  it has to compute that data. So they are not really realtime. Some digital scopes measure 1 channel at a time like the dual channel single beam analog scopes, Some measure 2 channels at once like the dual beam. But a DSO only measures a fraction of the time, like less then 10%. Fast = more realtime = more expensive. There are more factors like  the rate they refresh the screen, how much memory, delay between channels (but that is in ns so neglect able if your measuring ms or us).

I understand that you want the relative difference between cameras. That is not a problem. But I would try to show the effect in practical use instead producing numbers that look fancy but do not say a lot. I have no clue if the absolute numbers are useful. Your eyes need more time to blink as that camera to register, adapt and record the event. I am probably wrong but it sounds to me as snakeoil. To much unkown factors, different setups and testers that do not really know what they measure. (the influence of al other factors)  Sounds like someone did something that looks very technical and the rest follows. Show the real effect during flight. If it causes a real problem it must be easy to demonstrate it in practice (I think, I never flown a drone with camera).
Sounds a bit like comparing cars at topspeed if you only use it in the city. But again, not my field of expertise.

You should compare you test setup with different scopes. If the  results are more or less the same the setup could be good. If they differ a lot the setup is not good and you only measure the test gear instead of the camera. Just my two cents
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 10:26:05 PM by PA4TIM »
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Online bd139

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2017, 09:12:29 PM »
Also my analogue scope is a shit ton less noisy than the DSO. I'm keeping it for low noise measurements.
 

Offline Dutch RC

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2017, 12:04:43 AM »
Yup, at first I thought a DSO nano was the way to go, then I saw Dave's drive time video and I raised my budget to 500.

Like a said in CO and here, I'm a noob and open for suggestions.

I think it's very hard to show in a video that if you use camera A and you fly 75km/h and the fpv setup delay is ##ms to tell the difference between another one. 75km/h is 20.8m/s so 1/10th means your 2 meters off.

And the difference is noticeable when flying more than just a few test runs. Therefore I want to measure it and make things visible for everyone.

And I checked several options like taking pictures of stopwatches or leds and I think only a scope is really capable of making it visible.

First I want to do camera only and then all the way through the video transmitter, receiver and goggles.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:07:49 AM by Dutch RC »
 

Offline nickcres13

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2017, 02:36:52 AM »
Definitely go USB scope, there's no need to get a big hunk of a scope for a beginner, especially for what you are trying to look at. This thing looks pretty bomb, but as always tread with caution on kickstarter.... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751733865/smartscope-reinventing-the-oscilloscope?ref=category

Also going on the previous post about Analog Discovery, they have a new one out that looks real promising http://store.digilentinc.com/openscope-mz-open-source-all-in-one-instrumentation/

Oh how I love you, FPGA...
 

Offline alm

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2017, 03:09:42 AM »
$230 for a 30 MHz scope (and even that is optimistic with a 100 MS/s sampling rate) seems expensive to me. Features and maturity will probably be worse than a real bench scope.
 

Online mtdoc

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2017, 03:43:49 AM »
Definitely go USB scope, there's no need to get a big hunk of a scope for a beginner, especially for what you are trying to look at. This thing looks pretty bomb, but as always tread with caution on kickstarter.... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751733865/smartscope-reinventing-the-oscilloscope?ref=category

For not much more than that scope you can get an Analog Discovery with its much, much more capable hardware and software. A student discount will even get you the AD for less. Or if not a student, you can get academic pricing combined with 3 months of electronics instruction via this Contextual Electronics Analog Discovery bundle .  A very good deal IMO.

Quote
[quoteAlso going on the previous post about Analog Discovery, they have a new one out that looks real promising http://store.digilentinc.com/openscope-mz-open-source-all-in-one-instrumentation/

That's cool! I hadn't seen that before. The wireless browser based app allowing iOS or android tablet interace is a neat idea - especially for truly compact, mobile use.  Still thouh not nearly as capable as the AD and i would not recommend it as a starting scope unless budget was severely constrained.
 

Offline Dutch RC

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2017, 04:49:09 AM »
Sorry, I don't think I want a USB scope. Then I have to take the equipment to my desk because I don't have a laptop or second computer for my work bench.
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2017, 02:04:28 AM »
I mailed Owon on theyr homesite about how many probes on  August 12, 2017
Still no reply, bad company ?

You have scope already ?
My ±100€ lab : old scope, peaktech 6225a, aneng 8008
 

Offline Dutch RC

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2017, 02:22:54 AM »
No I'm going to visit a tech guru near me, emailed him yesterday what I should bring to try what I want and need.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2017, 04:14:33 AM »
It's good you have someone nearby who can get gear for you to test out, Dutch. Happy evaluating!
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Offline Karlo_Moharic

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2017, 04:56:36 AM »
Go on ebay and find yourselfe an old analog scope , something like Tektronix 475 , easy to service plus you get higher bandwith.

I personally have 475A and I love the bloody thing. I mean the build quality of that thing is just amazing.
 

Online bd139

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2017, 05:16:53 AM »
I've had a 475. It was amazing until it broke. Then you've got a job on your hands.

You don't know the joys of the mechanical mistakes until you need to get an attenuator out to clean it or the A4 board out.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2017, 04:21:14 PM »
That's why you don't buy just one. Gotta have backups, a working reference, and spare parts. And so it begins...
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Offline Dutch RC

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2017, 04:38:29 PM »
It's good you have someone nearby who can get gear for you to test out, Dutch. Happy evaluating!

That's if PA4TIM is going to read his email ;)
 

Online bd139

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2017, 08:37:34 PM »
That's why you don't buy just one. Gotta have backups, a working reference, and spare parts. And so it begins...

And then the next thing you know, she's left and taken the kids and you wake up at 8AM, sit up in bed, stretch out, bump your hand on the empty bottle of vodka and a 7603 that looks ashamed of itself.
 

Offline b_force

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2017, 09:34:55 PM »
I used to work with an OWON scope a lot for some customers.
They are ok, have some bugs here and there.
At that time they were extremely cheap for the features.
(roughly 5 years ago)
The software they have is horrendous though.

Nowadays the market has changed.
Much more competitors for a decent price.

It all depends how much bandwith you need.
Are you going to build high frequency stuff and/or need to look for high frequency (switching) noise etc?

If you have the money for it, I think the DS1054Z is a very nice option.
I think they are still hackable, so first go for the cheapest one.
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Online bd139

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2017, 10:31:15 PM »
Confirmed hackable. Did mine yesterday with the latest firmware :)
 
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Offline Dutch RC

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2017, 11:20:17 PM »
Small update,

I've been talking to PA4TIM and I ordered some Light To Voltage sensors.
I hope these will be sensitive and fast enough datasheet says 7us up and down
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/203020/TAOS/TSL252R.html

Then we will test with his equipment and see if we can make a reliable test setup.
Idea is to put the camera in front of e LED and one of the LTV on the other side of the LED.
This way we should be able to measure if the LED is ON, Then another LTV in front off the monitor to detect if the light is displayed on the screen.

There will be delays and I am convinced that PA4TIM can measure this and can deduct it in the final calculation.
I don't expect something less than 30/40 ms in a full setup and hope we can create a setup I can continue to use without the thousands of dollar equipment from PA4TIM and can be done with a hobby scope.
 

Offline Dutch RC

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Re: Which Digital Oscilloscope for a true beginner should I get?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2017, 02:28:52 AM »
Rigol DS1054Z just arrived, I unlocked it through this usb method which was very easy.

Also updated the firmware to the latest version.

Now it's doing self-care and then I need to set probe compensation and I'll be done.

Got one question being a new user, would it be worth the money to buy a Velleman EDU06 scope learning kit?

Velleman EDU06: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyM2aFxOHXOR-t2UKWI1cBcnNg2Rh_-ef
 


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